#Comicsgate - The Culture Wars Hit The Funny Books!

[Telemeter]

"Zoop". Zoop, founded as a collaboration between IDW Execs and former Kickstarter commissar Camilla Zhong, describes itself as a "concierge" service that offers to provide "end-to-end campaign managment", including customer relations, fulfillement and marketing so that indie creators can concentrate on making comics.

It basically sounds like Image with a crowdfunding front.

 

[Strix454]

Do you think the winding down was inevitable due to the crowdfunding model, or did the deluge of detritus and massively delayed fulfillments expedite the situation?

I think it was the low quality of the books produced, the long waits for fulfillment and the prices charged. Nearly all of the books produced are indy quality or even sub-indy quality. They are all sold based on personalities and e-celebrity rather than the quality of the work. Its hard to think of any books that were considered great work (or even good work) or that people actually loved as comics.

Paying up-front for the books to be produced was a good model for new creators without money or an audience. But using that model for successful projects with a large audience was just stupid. The guys who made the big paydays needed to move to a model after the first book of finishing books before crowdfunding them. But they didn't because of greed.

Then there were individual things that just pissed people off:

1) Mitch Breitweiser was a crook. His crowdfunding campaign was a con game. He is such a liar that he pretends today that he had nothing to do with CG.
2) Jon Malin checked out of doing his own comic because it was more interesting to hang out with hookers, drunks and ETHOTS doing streams. He just went and hired people to do the work for him because being an idiot was a full-time job.
3) Richard never got better. Rather than being a talented guy kept out of the industry, he was an untalented guy with no good ideas.
4) TUG and vanity projects. One of the early signs of doom for CG was when TUG started talking about himself as a creator. TUG was allowed to sell a work-for-hire book through the crowdfunding model that had nothing to do with him. And the elders of CG said "thats great TUG".
5) Bad creators getting a huge push within the movement. Things like Super-Harem and everything by Adam Post.
6) The movement was initially critical of Marvel/DC cashgrabs through gimmicks that had nothing to with good comics. But quickly the movement took everything Marvel and DC were doing in terms of gimmicks and going further. They would not give you a good story, but they would sell you 20 or 30 different variant copies of the same comic.

The movement was also killed by its love for nostalgia and lack of any original ideas. Everything produced is just a shallow copy of something that was produced in the past. Mike S. Miller gives us a badly written captain America clone. Another guy dusts off his 90s indy comics. And the story Richard wants to tell to make a statement as an artist (499) is a shallow copy of the 1980s movie "Red Dawn'.

The most ironic thing about comicsgate was that what it really did is double down on all the bad things mainstream comics were doing. Rather than trying to expand readership, it business model was about selling expensive comics to a tiny audience of ever-older people who buy the comics for reasons other than the quality of the comics. Rather than come to terms with digital, they were (mostly) irrationally scared of it.

And when you ask them for their thoughts on how to fix things, the answers are inevitably crazy. They either want to turn back the clock to the 1970s trying to bring back returnable distribution or they look, like the fossils they are, to the dead DVD market for inspiration.

Crowdfunding could have opened a window for talented new creators to break through and establish an audience for their work outside the normal comics system. But like every comics trend in the past 40 years, the trend never reached its potential because the con men and grifters moved in at the first sign of there being money to be made.

 

[WhimsicalTrolli]

ComicsGate is still people practicing good customer service and trying to create a superior product.

Is this before cg creators threatened to dox backer information, sending fans pdfs before the actual book or after someone swindles the fans to get a Walmart deal for 2 dollars per comic when the fans paid 24-1000 2 years ago?

 

[Analog Devolved]

I think it was the low quality of the books produced, the long waits for fulfillment and the prices charged. Nearly all of the books produced are indy quality or even sub-indy quality. They are all sold based on personalities and e-celebrity rather than the quality of the work. Its hard to think of any books that were considered great work (or even good work) or that people actually loved as comics.

Paying up-front for the books to be produced was a good model for new creators without money or an audience. But using that model for successful projects with a large audience was just stupid. The guys who made the big paydays needed to move to a model after the first book of finishing books before crowdfunding them. But they didn't because of greed.

Then there were individual things that just pissed people off:

1) Mitch Breitweiser was a crook. His crowdfunding campaign was a con game. He is such a liar that he pretends today that he had nothing to do with CG.
2) Jon Malin checked out of doing his own comic because it was more interesting to hang out with hookers, drunks and ETHOTS doing streams. He just went and hired people to do the work for him because being an idiot was a full-time job.
3) Richard never got better. Rather than being a talented guy kept out of the industry, he was an untalented guy with no good ideas.
4) TUG and vanity projects. One of the early signs of doom for CG was when TUG started talking about himself as a creator. TUG was allowed to sell a work-for-hire book through the crowdfunding model that had nothing to do with him. And the elders of CG said "thats great TUG".
5) Bad creators getting a huge push within the movement. Things like Super-Harem and everything by Adam Post.
6) The movement was initially critical of Marvel/DC cashgrabs through gimmicks that had nothing to with good comics. But quickly the movement took everything Marvel and DC were doing in terms of gimmicks and going further. They would not give you a good story, but they would sell you 20 or 30 different variant copies of the same comic.

The movement was also killed by its love for nostalgia and lack of any original ideas. Everything produced is just a shallow copy of something that was produced in the past. Mike S. Miller gives us a badly written captain America clone. Another guy dusts off his 90s indy comics. And the story Richard wants to tell to make a statement as an artist (499) is a shallow copy of the 1980s movie "Red Dawn'.

The most ironic thing about comicsgate was that what it really did is double down on all the bad things mainstream comics were doing. Rather than trying to expand readership, it business model was about selling expensive comics to a tiny audience of ever-older people who buy the comics for reasons other than the quality of the comics. Rather than come to terms with digital, they were (mostly) irrationally scared of it.

And when you ask them for their thoughts on how to fix things, the answers are inevitably crazy. They either want to turn back the clock to the 1970s trying to bring back returnable distribution or they look, like the fossils they are, to the dead DVD market for inspiration.

Crowdfunding could have opened a window for talented new creators to break through and establish an audience for their work outside the normal comics system. But like every comics trend in the past 40 years, the trend never reached its potential because the con men and grifters moved in at the first sign of there being money to be made.

Richard is like a really good indie band that puts out a few good albums then puts out a bunch of bad albums. When people criticize Richard they forget he doesn't want to deal with troons, tranny gamer talk, or the LGBT mafia.

TUG's comic was absolutely comicsgate. A retarded self insert sonichu comic where he doxed backer information and made 100k to fund his dick pick catfishing ops.

Ethan's products are very high quality. Everything shows care about comics and comic design.

 

[A nameless trool]

Richard is like a really good mediocre indie band that puts out a few good decent albums then puts out a bunch of bad albums. When people criticize Richard they forget he doesn't want to deal with troons, tranny gamer talk, or the LGBT mafia.

TUG's comic was absolutely comicsgate. A retarded self insert sonichu comic where he doxed backer information and made 100k to fund his dick pick catfishing ops.

Ethan's products are very high quality. Everything shows care about comics and comic design.

fixed it for you.
Richard got huge sales because he was first and people wanted to support his message and they withered away.

 

[Captain Manning]

People like to point out Tim Lim's success in growing Kamen America as a snub, but individuals like Jon Malin, Graham Nolan, Mandy Summers, Mark Poulton and even TUG are able to build on previous campaigns simply by a solid track record of fulfillment.

People like to point out Kamen America not because nobody in CG can achieve fulfillment, but because most people in CG seem to have immense difficulty with fulfilment. You don't have to be "in CG" to get a quality indie comic into people's hands and make a lot of money doing so.

It's really more of a snub against Ethan, I think. It gets Ethan's hackles up, so it's probably never gonna get old for those looking to josh him around. I don't have an immense dislike for Ethan like some people here, but the fulfillment issue on his end has been a legitimate problem. If I wanted to back something from Ethan, I'd feel trepidation while doing so. Whereas with Tim, you know you're gonna get what you backed according to the advertised timeline.

The sad fact is is that most Comicsgate "figureheads" are, four years in, still working on campaign one.

Exactly.

 

[TiredAndInked]

Fucking hell. $1M tops.

Oh yeah, I've also gotta get the HEATHER SWAIN statue funded. So that'll be in there somewhere.

Jon Malin's GODLIKE will be interesting. That launches in a month too.



No, I'm just damned charming. ComicsGate is still people practicing good customer service and trying to create a superior product. Where individuals attempt that and fail, they'll fall away from the pack. New people will join, both big name pros and talented newcomers, and they'll get their shot too.

Of course, being a part of ALL CAPS COMICS helps.

Hey. If the new blood you bring in puts out solid stuff, instead of going the TUG/Wart route, I’ll be the first to admit I’m wrong and apologize.

 

[The Coon]

The late fulfilment doesn't bother me as much as the cowardice of these creators to not provide a fucking update when it is late. I don't feel like a monthly update on the progress is too much to ask for, especially when the project is late. Also, when I see the creator dicking around on Twitter and YouTube all the time. For me it's either you don't care about my business enough let me know how my late project is progressing or you are too much a coward to shoot straight with me on what's going on.

 

[Captain Manning]

Also, when I see the creator dicking around on Twitter and YouTube all the time.

Bruh, it's all about triggering and owning the libs! Don't you know that?

What do you think CG should be like? A business?

 

[The Coon]

Bruh, it's all about triggering and owning the libs! Don't you know that?

Oh shit, well I guess that's where the flaw in my think was. I figured it's was about business since anytime someone says something to make these creators upset, they go off crying about "they are trying to ruin my business".

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

Bruh, it's all about triggering and owning the libs! Don't you know that?

What do you think CG should be like? A business?

"Owning the libs!" IS the CG business model. Worked for the My Pillow nut.

 

[FROG]

Is this before cg creators threatened to dox backer information, sending fans pdfs before the actual book or after someone swindles the fans to get a Walmart deal for 2 dollars per comic when the fans paid 24-1000 2 years ago?

As I said, it doesn't matter how big you are, if you mishandle the trust of your customers in this kind of way, you're one and done. It's over for you. And I don't know where you're supposed to go. ComicsGate is a blacklisted creator's last best chance.

 

[Strix454]

"Owning the libs!" IS the CG business model. Worked for the My Pillow nut.

Not quite. He was a well-known drunk and crackhead who owned a bunch of bars. One day, the crack rocks told him to sell his bars and make pillows for America. For many years, he could be seen raving insanely at shopping malls and at the state fair high out of his mind on crack. Facing total failure, he bet everything he had on one last spin of the wheel. He did an informercial and his cocaine charisma won over the masses.
He became political in 2016 after he had been successful. He met Trump and found god in Trump somehow.
-------------------
....and if you think I'm overstating anything, this is a version direct from the man himself:

In 2004 the idea for MyPillow, a pillow that would hold its shape, came to him in a dream. “I got up in the middle of the night — it was about 2 in the morning — and I had ‘My Pillow’ written everywhere in the kitchen and all over the house.” One of his daughters came upstairs to get a glass of water and asked, “What are you doing, Dad?” he said he told her, “I’ve got this idea for this pillow. It’s gonna be called MyPillow. What do you think about it?” Her reaction still makes him laugh. “She goes, ‘That’s really random,’ and she went back downstairs.”

He dove in to the project, convinced the dream came from God. He and his son, Darren, spent hours cutting up foam and testing configurations before they came up with a pillow that would hold its shape. He taught himself how to sew — “I didn’t know how to thread the bobbin” — and he converted an old hammer mill to cut up the foam. Eventually, he had made several dozen pillows, and he went to the local Bed, Bath and Beyond. “I said, ‘I have the best pillow in the world. How many would you like?’ And they were like, ‘OK, you need to leave.’”

 

[Captain Manning]

As I said, it doesn't matter how big you are, if you mishandle the trust of your customers in this kind of way, you're one and done. It's over for you. And I don't know where you're supposed to go. ComicsGate is a blacklisted creator's last best chance.

Has anybody ever been tossed out of CG for passing on backer dox?

Cuz, you know, I've heard some real horror stories about that happening.

 

[Strix454]

Has anybody ever been tossed out of CG for passing on backer dox?

Cuz, you know, I've heard some real horror stories about that happening.

The whole situation with TUG contradicts the argument. TUG did everything possible wrong and TUG made more money on his second campaign than the first. TUG also remained in good standing with the bosses of the movement.

 

[Miniluv]

Richard is like a really good indie band that puts out a few good albums then puts out a bunch of bad albums. When people criticize Richard they forget he doesn't want to deal with troons, tranny gamer talk, or the LGBT mafia.

Except he kinda does. His videos still cover Twitter horseshit and rainbow slapfights. The difference between 2018 Zack and 2021 Zack is that 2021 Zack doesn't engage them directly on that platform anymore. He encourages everyone to leave Twitter and says he doesn't want to be involved in the culture war while he makes videos based on his opinions of Twitter and the culture war. He's just not directly engaged with it now.
Even at his current distance from the battlefront, he's struggled with maybe hurting the feefees of SJW weirdos he talks about in his content, offering mealy mouthed apologies to mentally ill assholes that have wished death on him and his kids in case one of them decides to an hero. This is after he's capitulated in every way he possibly could, including stopping the name calling, toning down his anger, and eventually leaving Twitter altogether. This was all for naught as they still hate his guts.

Richard got huge sales because he was first and people wanted to support his message and they withered away.

They didn't just wither away for no reason. They abandoned him because he laid down his arms and gave up on a fight he took up. He wasn't pressured by fans into suing Mark Waid, he did that on his own and it was a rallying point for people that shared his passion for the cause. He took a lot of money from people that believed in him and what he was doing and he took a giant shit on all of them. Not only did he run away from his own fight, he's now obligated to not criticize Waid anymore or talk about why he did what he did. No refunds.

If there's one thing Zack has shown us all in the last year or so is that he has absolutely no spine or stomach for pushback or criticism of any kind and he absolutely lacks the conviction necessary to finish battles he picked, even after he's paid every possible price for fighting them. All quitting did was alienate the people that supported his struggle. His enemies don't give a single shit and his name is still trashed no matter what. All for nothing.

 

[Captain Manning]

The whole situation with TUG contradicts the argument. TUG did everything possible wrong and TUG made more money on his second campaign than the first. TUG also remained in good standing with the bosses of the movement.

That's what I thought.

I wanted to make completely sure I had my facts straight before I called bullshit. Like maybe TUG got the heave ho without me knowing.

Sorry @FROG, but you're full of crap on this one. It seems to me that when wrapped in the veil of CG, you can get away with just about any shitty thing you want. TUG is the reason why I have had to ask the organizer of every single campaign I've been interested in whether they will misuse my backer information. So far, I've had to ask Lunga, Quaff, and even @NasserRabadi13. It's not a pleasant thing, and is not something I should have to do. It's not normal.

 

[The Coon]

Tug is the reason why I have had to ask the organizer of every single campaign I've been interested in whether they will misuse my backer information. So far, I've had to ask Lunga, Quaff, and even @NasserRabadi13. It's not a pleasant thing, and is not something I should have to do. It's not normal.

How would they know it was you though? You could use your name or a fake name and it would just get mixed in with the other backers. Unless you have your account name set up as Captain Manning I don't see why it would be a problem.

 

[Captain Manning]

How would they know it was you though? You could use your name or a fake name and it would just get mixed in with the other backers. Unless you have your account name set up as Captain Manning I don't see why it would be a problem.

I don't have a P.O. Box, and while it's true they'd have to do another step to match the name to the address, I try to leave as few bread crumbs as possible.

That's not really even the main point though. The main point is that doxing backers is a shitty thing, any way you slice it. You can apparently get away with that in CG.

 

[The Coon]

I don't have a P.O. Box, and while it's true they'd have to do another step to match the name to the address, I try to leave as few bread crumbs as possible.

I understand that.

That's not really even the main point though. The main point is that doxing backers is a shitty thing, any way you slice it. You can apparently get away with that in CG.

I agree with you on this. This kinda goes back to the post above about CG creators in it to own the libs/people they have a hissy fit with, and not for business.