DC Comics Multimedia General - A crisis of infinite fuck ups

[XYZpdq Jr.]

I'd say Batman TAS did a way better job with the dark and gritty tone of the Batman lore than Tim Burton's duology of movies

Yeah I recently rewatched 1989 and it's got some nice aesthetics and ... yeah.

 

[Calandrino]

I thought it was playing with one of the kids being gay or some shit? And isn't it tied to Supergirl where Lois joked about the wage gap? As if Lois Lane would ever accept getting paid less than her male peers?

Sorry, it was poisoned fruit for me with its ties to Supergirl and involvement of the DEI obsessed Warner Bro crew. I confess some of it is due to my affection for the genuinely strong, independent versions of Lois who was still allowed to be that way but also very much like real women portrayed by Terri Hatcher, Erica durance, and Kidder.

Its telling that the comparatively trad Smallville lasted ten years.

Superman & Lois has the same actor for Superman (and Lois, I think) as the Supergirl series, but otherwise it's not connected to it or the other CW shows. It's officially in an "alternate universe" or something. I've never seen any of the other CW DC shows, including Supergirl, except for YouTube highlights of how shit and embarrassing they are. In fact, one of the complaints around Supergirl was that the Superman casting was trash, and his character was written as Supergirl's useless sidekick. Nobody was less excited to see that guy get his own series than I was, but shills right here on kiwifarms convinced me to give it a shot. Whatever else you want to say about it, "spinoff of CW's woke Supergirl show" is not a fair assessment of it.

 

[Overly Serious]

Superman & Lois has the same actor for Superman (and Lois, I think) as the Supergirl series, but otherwise it's not connected to it or the other CW shows. It's officially in an "alternate universe" or something. I've never seen any of the other CW DC shows, including Supergirl, except for YouTube highlights of how shit and embarrassing they are. In fact, one of the complaints around Supergirl was that the Superman casting was trash, and his character was written as Supergirl's useless sidekick. Nobody was less excited to see that guy get his own series than I was, but shills right here on kiwifarms convinced me to give it a shot. Whatever else you want to say about it, "spinoff of CW's woke Supergirl show" is not a fair assessment of it.

I have seen Supergirl (though couldn't survive past the first couple of seasons and the odd cross-over episode). The guy playing Superman in it is a pretty good Clark Kent and a so-so Superman. But he's definitely second-fiddle to Supergirl who fills the season with humble-brags like "I'm actually a little bit stronger [than superman]" and yes there are awful lines from Lois like "Harvard study actually shows women are better in a crisis". (Side-note: I highly suspect that is either poorly researched or just defines better as 'talk more, act slower' which can well be not what you want in a crisis).

I started watching that Superman show following positive comments here from some posters but found it dull and Jonathon Kent (Superman's son) to be a whiny ungrateful brat. I didn't watch past episode 4 or 5.

 

[jspit2.0]

Superman & Lois has the same actor for Superman (and Lois, I think) as the Supergirl series, but otherwise it's not connected to it or the other CW shows. It's officially in an "alternate universe" or something. I've never seen any of the other CW DC shows, including Supergirl, except for YouTube highlights of how shit and embarrassing they are. In fact, one of the complaints around Supergirl was that the Superman casting was trash, and his character was written as Supergirl's useless sidekick. Nobody was less excited to see that guy get his own series than I was, but shills right here on kiwifarms convinced me to give it a shot. Whatever else you want to say about it, "spinoff of CW's woke Supergirl show" is not a fair assessment of it.

Well, it got poisoned from that and the fact I just have such a low level of trust considering those ties.

I have seen Supergirl (though couldn't survive past the first couple of seasons and the odd cross-over episode). The guy playing Superman in it is a pretty good Clark Kent and a so-so Superman. But he's definitely second-fiddle to Supergirl who fills the season with humble-brags like "I'm actually a little bit stronger [than superman]" and yes there are awful lines from Lois like "Harvard study actually shows women are better in a crisis". (Side-note: I highly suspect that is either poorly researched or just defines better as 'talk more, act slower' which can well be not what you want in a crisis).

I started watching that Superman show following positive comments here from some posters but found it dull and Jonathon Kent (Superman's son) to be a whiny ungrateful brat. I didn't watch past episode 4 or 5.

It's infuriating because Season 1 has so much potential. It's a victim of its time, 2015, when everything was reaching woke. You had a good costume, a perfect casting for Kara, the fantastic Calista Flockhart. Then you had the woke shit thrown in for seemingly bizarre things. It's not just they blacked Jimmy Olsen, they picked a fucking underwear model. They had one guy who actually WAS like Jimmy Olsen, but he was the token white cuck.

Then there's the addition of Ali Adler who basically was basically the big virtue signal who they brought on to deflect criticism. She's Jewish, Canadian, and lesbian who wrote dating advice on how women should date straight men!

They had to at least try on CBS, then when the show got sent to the hell that is the CW, that was it. They reverse retconned her sister as a lesbo, introduced trump deranged immigration storylines. The show started with wasted potential and by the end of season 1 rightfully got cancelled only to be forced like Batlesbian to hobble forward past any reasonable point.

 

[TVB]

Yeah I recently rewatched 1989 and it's got some nice aesthetics and ... yeah.

Tim Burton is only good with style than substance. Otherwise, he's not a good storyteller.

 

[Overly Serious]

It's infuriating because Season 1 has so much potential. It's a victim of its time, 2015, when everything was reaching woke. You had a good costume, a perfect casting for Kara, the fantastic Calista Flockhart. Then you had the woke shit thrown in for seemingly bizarre things. It's not just they blacked Jimmy Olsen, they picked a fucking underwear model. They had one guy who actually WAS like Jimmy Olsen, but he was the token white cuck.

Are you talking about the tech guy "Win" who was her close friend and helped design her costume? He was actually very likeable and a nice character. They kept trying to write him as this unsexy loser which was weird to watch because the guy is reasonably handsome and despite them being careful never to let him wear anything tight or take his shirt off in the show, obviously in great shape. I looked him up on IMDB just to check my facts right now and turns out he's the voice of Lucifer Morningstar in Hazbin Hotel (the writers know that that's basically naming the character 'morningstar morningstar', right?)

"Jimmy Olsen" was fine other than not actually being almost anything like the character Jimmy Olsen. Also, once the romance angle with Kara fizzled out they had absolutely nothing to do with the character. As an actor, he was actually okay.

(both Win and Jimmy in a cross-over episode and showing Kara when she's just being a fun character)

Then there's the addition of Ali Adler who basically was basically the big virtue signal who they brought on to deflect criticism. She's Jewish, Canadian, and lesbian who wrote dating advice on how women should date straight men!

Never heard of her but there was a sad and rather sharp change in Supergirl. Which for all I knew could have been the shift to CW but if you tell me this woman is the reason I'll believe it.

They had to at least try on CBS, then when the show got sent to the hell that is the CW, that was it. They reverse retconned her sister as a lesbo, introduced trump deranged immigration storylines. The show started with wasted potential and by the end of season 1 rightfully got cancelled only to be forced like Batlesbian to hobble forward past any reasonable point.

So Alex (her sister) becoming a lesbian was weird and a shame because they'd set up this subtle romantic tension thing between her and Supergirl's enemy Max Lord which would have been fun to see develop. Also, it's not that convincing imo because the character - well I'm not sure how old she's supposed to be but she looks in her thirties. It's a little late to suddenly realise you got your sexuality backwards but whatever. The Trump / Immigration stuff I had dropped out of by that point.

Bringing up Batwoman just reminds me how similar the issues that plagued both of these shows were. Though at least Supergirl retained Win for sometime and Melissa Benoist always had some charisma.

 

[Overly Serious]

Apologies for double post (but there's about five hours in between - not my fault nobody else has posted), but something else I've remembered with SG was that there's a moment where Win (the aforesaid character @jspit2.0 is talking about) gets mixed signals from Supergirl and kisses her. Which she then rebuffs a bit surprised. I remember Reddit going into meltdown about that. I think it was Reddit. It might be that AV Forums place if that was still around then. Maybe it was both. They were practically calling for the character's head and falling over themselves to declare how not acceptable it was.

Supergirl may have gone off a cliff but there is no doubt that it was appealing to the most vocal parts of its fanbase.

 

[jspit2.0]

@Overly Serious yeah, that's the guy.

I'd argue it's a big deal they were so desperate to hook her up with black underwear model, who yes the actor is actually pretty good and has played other roles, because it spoke more to this iteration of Supergirls lack of character. She's....kindof selfish. Which is fine in an 18 yr old smallville version of her, but not in a twenty something grown ass fucking woman.

 

[TheAmbiguousLurker]

The Flash was shit. The emotional beats were terrible, the plot was broken, the time travel mechanics back peddled every time they were used, the character work was shallow and the climax of the character arc is the main character learning a lesson only to immediately disregard that lesson. But none of that really matters, because the film was dead the moment some retard was allowed into the writers room, pitched 'What if we didn't have one, but TWO versions of Ezra Miller, and one of them is intentionally annoying', and no one shot him on the spot.

I've never seen an episode of the Supergirl show. Only thing I saw of it was a clip on youtube where it seemed like they were doing their own version of Superman (Supergirl) VS The Elite and... Were making it about racism against aliens?

 

[Overly Serious]

I've never seen an episode of the Supergirl show. Only thing I saw of it was a clip on youtube where it seemed like they were doing their own version of Superman (Supergirl) VS The Elite and... Were making it about racism against aliens?

Yes. There was some Trump-plot thing where an evil Trump figure was leading people into hating aliens and smashing their windows and such. I'd dropped by that point.

Supergirl started okay with some mean but bearable digs, like Cat Grant reviewing a list of guests and asking "any republicans on there?" "Two, but they're reformed" or something like that. But not mostly central to the plot. But it started going off the rails politically and social agenda became the unsubtle driver of much of the plot. It's a shame, it had potential and some good stuff. I don't know how it ended up but probably nowhere good.

 

[jspit2.0]

The Flash was shit. The emotional beats were terrible, the plot was broken, the time travel mechanics back peddled every time they were used, the character work was shallow and the climax of the character arc is the main character learning a lesson only to immediately disregard that lesson. But none of that really matters, because the film was dead the moment some retard was allowed into the writers room, pitched 'What if we didn't have one, but TWO versions of Ezra Miller, and one of them is intentionally annoying', and no one shot him on the spot.

I've never seen an episode of the Supergirl show. Only thing I saw of it was a clip on youtube where it seemed like they were doing their own version of Superman (Supergirl) VS The Elite and... Were making it about racism against aliens?

Yes. There was some Trump-plot thing where an evil Trump figure was leading people into hating aliens and smashing their windows and such. I'd dropped by that point.

Supergirl started okay with some mean but bearable digs, like Cat Grant reviewing a list of guests and asking "any republicans on there?" "Two, but they're reformed" or something like that. But not mostly central to the plot. But it started going off the rails politically and social agenda became the unsubtle driver of much of the plot. It's a shame, it had potential and some good stuff. I don't know how it ended up but probably nowhere good.

It was hobbled from the beginning by the dyke and launching during the awokening. Which sucks. Imagine Arrow season 1 meets Lois and Clark from the 90s. That's Supergril could have been and should have been and would have been; if it'd premiered a year earlier without the CW creatives being allowed to take a CBS show and make CWfy it.

My problem isn't the republican joke. It's episodes like the one with Red Tornado that completely undermined the shows premise combined with the bipolar schizophrenia that by that time had seeped into all DC on TV shows.

 

[Overly Serious]

It was hobbled from the beginning by the dyke and launching during the awokening. Which sucks. Imagine Arrow season 1 meets Lois and Clark from the 90s. That's Supergril could have been and should have been and would have been; if it'd premiered a year earlier without the CW creatives being allowed to take a CBS show and make CWfy it.

My problem isn't the republican joke. It's episodes like the one with Red Tornado that completely undermined the shows premise combined with the bipolar schizophrenia that by that time had seeped into all DC on TV shows.

Well the jab at Republicans was illustrative of what you found in it rather than the problem itself. I vaguely remember the Red Tornado episode. And by vaguely I mean fighting it in a quarry. What happened in that to undermine the show's premise?

 

[jspit2.0]

Well the jab at Republicans was illustrative of what you found in it rather than the problem itself. I vaguely remember the Red Tornado episode. And by vaguely I mean fighting it in a quarry. What happened in that to undermine the show's premise?

It's supposed to be about Kara becoming a real hero recognized as her cousin's peer. I had to look it up, but they took it and made this cringe scene of them at the gym. It's just, she's an emotional train wreck and has these powers and then rather than sticking to the message that maybe being worthy of people respect instead of their fear; they give her easy outs. General Lanes mean, sexism, blah blah.

It's a common trope of trying to say a character has flaws, but then when you dig, it's just their flaw is being awesome? There's an actually awesome moment that should have happened here, where Kara should realize how deficient she is. Making excuses for things that are happening because she's not better at controlling herself.

I'd contrast that with something like Smallville, flawed though it may have been, pointing out how teen clark was unworthy when he fucked up.

 

[Overly Serious]

It's supposed to be about Kara becoming a real hero recognized as her cousin's peer. I had to look it up, but they took it and made this cringe scene of them at the gym. It's just, she's an emotional train wreck and has these powers and then rather than sticking to the message that maybe being worthy of people respect instead of their fear; they give her easy outs. General Lanes mean, sexism, blah blah.

It's a common trope of trying to say a character has flaws, but then when you dig, it's just their flaw is being awesome? There's an actually awesome moment that should have happened here, where Kara should realize how deficient she is. Making excuses for things that are happening because she's not better at controlling herself.

I'd contrast that with something like Smallville, flawed though it may have been, pointing out how teen clark was unworthy when he fucked up.

Ah, got it. I see what you mean, now. Yes - and it seems to be a common problem in a lot of overtly feminist media that it's about people finding out that you're special / realising that you're special. Captain Marvel had the same theme in its movie. Twilight did.

 

[marvlouslie]

I'd say Batman TAS did a way better job with the dark and gritty tone of the Batman lore than Tim Burton's duology of movies

Pretty much. It had a way of combining a lot of the campiness from the Adam West show, and the dark grittiness of the Tim Burton era films (and arguably did a better job setting tone and atmosphere), and it just ... worked. You could forgive a lot of the dumb shit about it simply because the voice acting and direction was so good. For me some of the best TAS episodes were of just Batman going up against regular guys.

 

[TVB]

Pretty much. It had a way of combining a lot of the campiness from the Adam West show, and the dark grittiness of the Tim Burton era films (and arguably did a better job setting tone and atmosphere), and it just ... worked. You could forgive a lot of the dumb shit about it simply because the voice acting and direction was so good. For me some of the best TAS episodes were of just Batman going up against regular guys.

Yea, TAS was a well-made animated show that, like you said, perfectly balances the camp factor used in the 60s Adam West series with the dark and gritty factor of the first two Tim Burton movies. And speaking of voice acting, Kevin Conroy was the best Batman and I still miss him to this day

 

[jspit2.0]

I'd say Batman TAS did a way better job with the dark and gritty tone of the Batman lore than Tim Burton's duology of movies

Pretty much. It had a way of combining a lot of the campiness from the Adam West show, and the dark grittiness of the Tim Burton era films (and arguably did a better job setting tone and atmosphere), and it just ... worked. You could forgive a lot of the dumb shit about it simply because the voice acting and direction was so good. For me some of the best TAS episodes were of just Batman going up against regular guys.

TAS wasn't as dark as the Burton films, nor did it do allot of longform. It's big thing was it's very minimalist, structuralist approach to storytelling. Dini rarely went beyond two episodes and allot are done in one.

I mean the skeleton of Max Schreck? Danny Devito biting someone's nose off? Or Jack Nicholson outright turning someone into a corpse? Pretty dark.

But you're comparing a cartoon, with all the freedom that provides done over a decade to a movie. Especially a movie that when it was made, had only Dick Donner's Superman movies for modern superhero success and the latest version of Batman before Burton's Bat films was the Adam West series. The tv series owes Burton and those movies immensely; both pushing boundaries of what was acceptable in his movies, to the solidness of Returns story.

As a side note, Burton hated his first Batman movie, as Sam Hamm did the scripting. Batman Returns is his story with Waters and I have difficulty criticizing that story, its music, its acting, or anything else.

 

[marvlouslie]

Tim Burton is only good with style than substance. Otherwise, he's not a good storyteller.

I always found Tim Burton very fucking weird. The overuse of the "Goth" aesthetic, and a need to make every teen character a walking Hot Topic ad. I mean, I like the first Batman film he did, but Batman Returns was where he lost me.

 

[jspit2.0]

I always found Tim Burton very fucking weird.

YEah, that's what he's going for. Maybe nor for everyone, but after a billion movies sanded down to look the same or hyper real, I actually welcome it with open arms.

The overuse of the "Goth" aesthetic,

The overuse of the goth aesthetic, in Batman?

and a need to make every teen character a walking Hot Topic ad. I mean, I like the first Batman film he did, but Batman Returns was where he lost me.

And? Why did he lose you there? The aesthetic? The music? The story?

 

[marvlouslie]

YEah, that's what he's going for. Maybe nor for everyone, but after a billion movies sanded down to look the same or hyper real, I actually welcome it with open arms.




The overuse of the goth aesthetic, in Batman?



And? Why did he lose you there? The aesthetic? The music? The story?

There is such a thing as "style over substance". You can use the Goth aesthetic to the point that's all anyone ever talks about in Batman. The first Batman film had it, but it was more subdued and wasn't blatantly in your face. Timmy apparently had a 'tard wrangler in the first movie that told him to knock it the fuck off, because in Returns, it's all over the fuckin' place and it was just a mess. Maybe hop off that dick a bit, eh? Don't want to gape your asshole too much.