DC Comics Multimedia General - A crisis of infinite fuck ups

[Incecticyder]

It still freezes the area, which makes him naturally slower going in. Even if he doesn't necessarily get hit, he is still walking into a refrigerator often times and the coldness of the gun still comes off of it even before being used. Same can be said of Heatwave who will naturally make the temperature warmer. Assuming his body processes are accelerated - shown by his need for food consumption - the shift in temperature even prior to engagement will still hit him.

He is still fast enough to disarm them. He almost has infinite speed. The Speed Force is broken. Maybe we can see more competition now that other forces have been unleased.

Most of their opponents are galaxy-level threats who can wipe out entire solar systems including Earth if their shenanigans aren't stopped.

But Superman can't possible know that unless someone informs him.

There's at least one Wonder Woman villain that nearly killed him and the rest of the Justice League (it was her equivalent of Doomsday, I forget the name currently). But anyway you seem to be taking something I say and projecting something else onto it so let me reiterate in the simplest terms - Superman stories do not need nor do they benefit from constantly having to involve other heroes/supporting cast and therefore needing to nerf Superman to avoid them looking useless.

His solo stuff no but the ones that are going to be recurring have to be considered. It is easier to do it with Darkseid as he has henchmen that are on other heroes level. In the end, DC considers Superman more of a brand rather than a character with an established continuity. That is moot however as most writers just don't understand how to work with Superman.

Also, I think it was Typhon but I am not sure. Yes, there are a few villains that can hurt Superman outside his rogues. Very rare and they almost never get to fight him.

So by this measure every single Batman story that involves science shenanigans should have him asking the likes of Ted Kord, Mr. Terrific, Superman and Green Lantern for advice, right? Since him being a good detective doesn't necessarily mean that he is a good scientist. You seem to be stubbornly misunderstanding my main point, which is that other superhero solo stories do not see the need to bring in other heroes to make the central hero seem less "OP". Neither should Superman's solo stories.

He IS a good scientist. He is also a good detective. 99% of the time he doesn't need help. Also, he prefers to work alone or with the Bat Family when it comes to Gotham. That is established. Those heroes are busy with their jobs too.

Like it or not, DC is a shared universe and while a villain might work on a solo Superman story, they better think about a crossover. When the majority of heroes is street level and they are in a team that includes a cosmic level hero, only the weaker of his rogues can fight the other heroes in crossovers. That isn't a hard rule of course. You can go around that without nerfing the villain. Just have them face Superman and only him. Zod can fight Superman and Metallo can fight Cyborg etc etc. Don't have Zod fight Batman though unless you have a really good plan on how it will go.

My argument is more that I lack faith. I lack faith in the ability of the writers to make people who can harm Superman into people that can organically fit in the rest of the universe. This isn't like Invincible where every story has the main protagonist as the epicenter. DC has many epicenters with different power levels. That makes things complicated. It shouldn't be too hard to make someone that Superman struggles with, it just so happens that no one that had the assignment bother to do it since Doomsday. Doomsday worked but he isn't someone that easily makes reappearances. Not to mention that his ability gets nerfed so that he doesn't shatter the world with one punch.

All in all, it isn't really a problem for Superman solo stories, we can agree on that. The problem arises when the character has to make a reappearance later. Because of course they will.

I read everything you say, it's just that most of it is you constantly misinterpreting what I'm saying. Superman SHOULDN'T be getting affected by her powers, that's the point, she isn't a serious threat on his level anymore than the likes of the Prankster were (which is why he got shuffled off to other rogues' galleries). And sure she can threaten innocents but so can a regular terrorist with a few dozen bombs rigged to explode around Metropolis.

Not really. Not to that extend. Terrorists need to plant bombs (which Superman regularly detects in his patrols) and the high explosives are regulated. Regular police can deal with normal terrorists. Livewire can do more with less. She can kill and make it look like an accident or fry every cable at the highest level. That is a threat.

So Wonder Woman and Aquaman, who are on Superman's level physically, are A-listers then? How about Firestorm? He is pretty damn powerful too.

It is a popularity contest. Not power alone. People know WW and Aquaman. They know their supporting cast and their rogues. Firestorm is a D-lister at best due to being in a CW show.

You seem to be agreeing with the core premises but writing in such a way to avoid admitting to it. Which I don't take as an attack so much as it just confuses me as to what your goal even is and what you are trying to prove. Because you aren't arguing against my main points, you are just constantly shifting the goal posts which has happened previously too. And if this is going to be another case of such then I really can't be arsed going in circles again so see replies #2 and #3 above for my primary claims.

We agree on some things. I agree that Superman can have really powerful opponents, I just don't see it happening. How many Superman level threats can Earth take? Every time they bring one, that is one more that the Earth heroes have to deal with. There is a worldbuilding problem. There has to be a limit. We can have many of the street level villains, a smaller amount of those that can cause real damage and a few that are a threat to Superman. Comicbook characters rarely die as they will be back. Perhaps the Phantom Zone should be used more often for those.

All in all, it is hard to have an increasing number of Superman-level threats. That is my issue. It is far easier in self contained stories but DC isn't such.

 

[Basic Blond Boy]

My argument is more that I lack faith. I lack faith in the ability of the writers to make people who can harm Superman into people that can organically fit in the rest of the universe.

Counters and new elements being thrown into a fight would really help. Each hero deals with entirely different types of battles, the fun of the cast coming together is the new strategies that emerge. If we are to use Zod as an example, his battles with Clark are fist fights, two titans duking it out. Would Zod be able to reasonably readapt to Batman who blows out his ear drums, then whips out the Kryptonite gauntlets to beat him while he is trembling on the floor. Likewise, are the JL prepared for a crazy like the Joker who has no rules set and a knack for chemistry where he will gas them, shock them, or spew acid since unlike Bruce, they don't come with equipment for these kinds of encounters.

Many a Wonder Woman villains have magic, making a hard counter to Superman. Many Batman villains are more psychological warfare than physical, making them unique to deal with - how would a Wonder Woman handle a fear gas acid trip? Lanterns are basically Gods, but they need concentration and control over their emotions, giving a nice exploit for even low level Bat villains to mess them up.

Also, usually lower level villains typically get buffed by who they are around. There is a reason Lex seems to favor Joker, Joker with Lex's artillery is terrifying as hell and a complete monster to deal with for any of the Leaguers.

He is still fast enough to disarm them. He almost has infinite speed. The Speed Force is broken. Maybe we can see more competition now that other forces have been unleased.

They should really just fix Flash by giving him the hard cutoff like the DCAU did. After his speed gets to a certain point, it should potentially kill him or do irreparable damage to reality, which would force him to actually slow the hell down. From there, any added element just adds to the potential of him getting wrecked, so something like temperature or metabolism could be a hard counter.

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

The Freeze gun slows down the Flash as the colder temperature affects his molecules and physicality like any normal human. Flash’s quickened body may make the effects hit faster as well, a problem that he goes through with Heatwave who lights his ass up through the increased temperature mixed with his faster body functions, accelerating everything. One also needs to remember that the Rouges temperature control is far beyond what normal humans can survive.

Oh, I totally understand why cold and heat affect speedster. I was more focused on him not trying to disarm Cold more often, but I saw your explanation for that too.

Honestly, DC should really highlight the heroes body internal problems as they make for easy ways to get the upper hand without being cheap about it. Clark’s super hearing is prime to get fucked, same with Flash’s quickened body processes.

Now I'm curious about something: How much would a Canary Cry hurt Superman's ears? Not the shockwave itself, the noise that comes from it.

 

[Basic Blond Boy]

Now I'm curious about something: How much would a Canary Cry hurt Superman's ears? Not the shockwave itself, the noise that comes from it.

If we are going off Injustice, he had blood spilling out of his ears and was pretty decently incapacitated, having to resort to lasering her to stop. If you mixed her screech with either magic or Kryptonite afterwards, she could theoretically take down Supes - even if unlikely.

 

[Incecticyder]

Would Zod be able to reasonably readapt to Batman who blows out his ear drums, then whips out the Kryptonite gauntlets to beat him while he is trembling on the floor.

I imagine Zod wearing power armor and having lesser powers than Superman. He was basically human for most of his life. As a soldier from an advanced civilization, he would wear power armor. Also, his body might not absorb sunlight as well as Clark's. For him, solar empowerment is a new thing both for his body and mind. He shouldn't be beaten to a pulp. He would still have his armor and fighting skills. He wasn't a civilian but a trained fighter.

Likewise, are the JL prepared for a crazy like the Joker who has no rules set and a knack for chemistry where he will gas them, shock them, or spew acid since unlike Bruce, they don't come with equipment for these kinds of encounters.

Joker, like Luthor, works for everyone.

Many a Wonder Woman villains have magic, making a hard counter to Superman.

Easier than it sounds. He has no magic defenses better than the average human but any magical creature that takes him on has to account for his many powers and creativity. Apollo blasted him with all the power of the sun (lol), Hat tried to cast a spell only to run out of air like an idiot and Zatanna could only immobilize him for a little time. Also, good luck casting a spell faster than he can reach you or withstanding his fists. He is still faster than a speeding bullet and stronger than a locomotive.

I agree that there can be great crossover potential. I just don't have faith in the writers.

Oh, I totally understand why cold and heat affect speedster. I was more focused on him not trying to disarm Cold more often, but I saw your explanation for that too.

Thing is, the Flash has a reaction time that can be measured in leptons. By the time Cold pulls the trigger, he should be in Sahara.

Now I'm curious about something: How much would a Canary Cry hurt Superman's ears? Not the shockwave itself, the noise that comes from it.

If we are going off Injustice, he had blood spilling out of his ears and was pretty decently incapacitated, having to resort to lasering her to stop. If you mixed her screech with either magic or Kryptonite afterwards, she could theoretically take down Supes - even if unlikely.

If she can vibrate at the right frequencies, even Superman would have a bad day. The writers suck though so we won't see it. Superman has good villains. The Silver Banshee could have been used for that role but noooooo! Most people don't use them right.

 

[Newcomer 42]

Many a Wonder Woman villains have magic, making a hard counter to Superman. Many Batman villains are more psychological warfare than physical, making them unique to deal with - how would a Wonder Woman handle a fear gas acid trip? Lanterns are basically Gods, but they need concentration and control over their emotions, giving a nice exploit for even low level Bat villains to mess them up.

Scarecrow can be disabled by having a gas mask, which oddly enough, Bats doesn't always have, even when he suspects Scarecrow is around.
That's probably to make him a threat, though.

Also, usually lower level villains typically get buffed by who they are around. There is a reason Lex seems to favor Joker, Joker with Lex's artillery is terrifying as hell and a complete monster to deal with for any of the Leaguers.

Has someone tried giving Joker, Scarecrow and others a Lantern Ring? It would be an uncontrollable disaster, but it's a nuclear option for the bad guys.

I believe Invencible has been mentioned. The comic (and the show as well) accidentally showed why there are clear "do's and don't's" in superhero stories. For example, Viltrumites are too strong, IMO, or maybe their weaknesses aren't well-defined enough. Saiyans had the same issue, but they were mostly dead by the time DBZ began.

 

[From The Uncanny Valley]

Scarecrow can be disabled by having a gas mask, which oddly enough, Bats doesn't always have, even when he suspects Scarecrow is around.
That's probably to make him a threat, though.


Has someone tried giving Joker, Scarecrow and others a Lantern Ring? It would be an uncontrollable disaster, but it's a nuclear option for the bad guys.

I believe Invencible has been mentioned. The comic (and the show as well) accidentally showed why there are clear "do's and don't's" in superhero stories. For example, Viltrumites are too strong, IMO, or maybe their weaknesses aren't well-defined enough. Saiyans had the same issue, but they were mostly dead by the time DBZ began.

Scarecrow very briefly had a yellow ring and it was AWESOME

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

The funniest part about DC imo was that stint where they put Barbara Gordon in a wheelchair and she had to deftly come up with all sorts of excuses as to why she couldn't have her injury healed by any of the super genius, literal aliens, magicians and effective gods she knew who would be pretty happy to heal her. I think at one point they tried to go for this "I don't want to be healed of my debilitating injury unless THE WHOLE WORLD IS HEALED TOO." It's always funny when people write disabled characters as if they prefer being disabled. I think "needing specialized equipment to take a shit or piss" would be the the opposite of empowering personally.

All because DC had a popular crippled character and many DEI points were gained from her.

 

[Basic Blond Boy]

Thing is, the Flash has a reaction time that can be measured in leptons. By the time Cold pulls the trigger, he should be in Sahara.

Flash is reactionary, Cold is typically set up before he enters which is why he is a problem. If Cold fires off in the bank and drops the temperature before Flash arrives, it will automatically impact him upon arrival. Imagine running in 70 degree weather, then getting hit with a cold gust and temperature in the below 0s upon coming closer to the crime spot. It will still hit Barry like any normal person going from standard to extreme weather, setting him at a disadvantage upon running up.

Hard to explain, but the speed force presumably works in slowing down time from Barry’s POV. While he is super fast to everyone, he himself perceives it as a regular jog. Taking this in, if he is running and going from summer to winter temperatures it will hit him like any normal person and should significantly slow him down given the whiplash of weather. Same can be said with how running into a burning building would hit him the same as any of us, the exertion of energy compounds hard when mixed with a heated setting.

I also think the slows down time explanation informs why Barry cannot just react to everything. Technically speaking, he has the same reaction time as you or me, the speed force just slows things down once he becomes connected - another point as Barry obviously shuts it off to not have all of reality in slow-mo at all times.
The only thing that makes the slow-mo explanation difficult is I have to assume he can speed things up when traveling long distances. Otherwise his trips around the world have to absolutely suck.

Edit: He can control perception, not like it affects much of the explanation. If he wants to go faster, he blurs his vision, great when dealing with just avoiding objects, not so much in terms of a situation that needs him to read things. Assuming he is actually squaring up, he will need to slow his perception to see what is happening, so the above hitting him is possible.

 

[Rome's rightful successor]

and they still kill him with bullets after

They had a device that tired him out.

It's a pity they negate this later on by having Captain Boomerang somehow be quick enough to activate an anti-Flash force field device on his wrist before Flash can touch him.

But that is one of the better parts of the game though.

 

[Samuel Fuller]

Don't get me wrong I am not saying Invincible is the best thing ever. Far from it.

But I do think that there is something DC can learn from them. If Viltrumites are shown as unapologetically powerful, and people online love them for it, why can't DC do the same with Superman?

Maybe we should be asking why the internet was hyped about Conquest or Thragg, or of the invincible characters literally destroying a planet, while Superman constantly gets lame moments because writers are scared of making him "OP" and overcorrect.

Being Op is subjetive. Spiderman is OP against random street gangs, but weak against Thanos.

"Superman is OP" is a meme with a simple solution. Just give him worthy challenges. It really is that simple.

You are GREATLY overestimating the popularity of the Invincible comic.

If Superman suddenly started being written more like the edge lord knockoff, it would NOT be popular at all.

 

[Basic Blond Boy]

You are GREATLY overestimating the popularity of the Invincible comic.

If Superman suddenly started being written more like the edge lord knockoff, it would NOT be popular at all.

I think his point is more that Superman needs better fights that exemplify his physicality. If Zod comes to Earth, there should be a level of weight to the two gods brawling. I think this DCAU moment between Supes and Shazam is more what @Mystery Spy meant when he said DC needs to take notes:

The problem is Superman often ends up with bitchass moments like this where there is no excuse how he got beat so easily:

 

[Incecticyder]

Flash is reactionary, Cold is typically set up before he enters which is why he is a problem. If Cold fires off in the bank and drops the temperature before Flash arrives, it will automatically impact him upon arrival. Imagine running in 70 degree weather, then getting hit with a cold gust and temperature in the below 0s upon coming closer to the crime spot. It will still hit Barry like any normal person going from standard to extreme weather, setting him at a disadvantage upon running up.

Hard to explain, but the speed force presumably works in slowing down time from Barry’s POV. While he is super fast to everyone, he himself perceives it as a regular jog. Taking this in, if he is running and going from summer to winter temperatures it will hit him like any normal person and should significantly slow him down given the whiplash of weather. Same can be said with how running into a burning building would hit him the same as any of us, the exertion of energy compounds hard when mixed with a heated setting.

I also think the slows down time explanation informs why Barry cannot just react to everything. Technically speaking, he has the same reaction time as you or me, the speed force just slows things down once he becomes connected - another point as Barry obviously shuts it off to not have all of reality in slow-mo at all times.
The only thing that makes the slow-mo explanation difficult is I have to assume he can speed things up when traveling long distances. Otherwise his trips around the world have to absolutely suck.

I suppose you could argue that whoever catches the other off-guard has an advantage. Does the Flash know he is about to fight Cold? Does Cold know where the Flash is coming from? Can the Flash figure out a way to outwit Cold? Can Cold prepare for every eventuality? I think it depends.

Edit: He can control perception, not like it affects much of the explanation. If he wants to go faster, he blurs his vision, great when dealing with just avoiding objects, not so much in terms of a situation that needs him to read things. Assuming he is actually squaring up, he will need to slow his perception to see what is happening, so the above hitting him is possible.

The Speed Force allows him to pick and choose what forces affect him. It is why he can see despite traveling faster than light or why his body isn't torn up.

 

[Prehistoric Jazz]

Can Superman throw an object so hard he himself can't catch it?

 

[Mystery Spy]

If Superman suddenly started being written more like the edge lord knockoff, it would NOT be popular at all.

First I want to thank @Basic Blond Boy for explaining better than I could've. Yes that's exactly what I meant.

I am not saying they should copy Invicible's writing style. Far from it.

However, I do think Invincible does prove all the "superman is Op" complaints are nonsensical. Nobody is complaining the temu Kryptonians, the Viltrumites, are OP and in fact everyone is cheering on them for being powerhouses.

While Superman gets knocked out by an electric fence, invincible just had their characters destroying a planet.

My point is writers should stop being scared of showing a strong Superman. It goes without saying those stories should also fit Superman's character.

 

[Samuel Fuller]

First I want to thank @Basic Blond Boy for explaining better than I could've. Yes that's exactly what I meant.

I am not saying they should copy Invicible's writing style. Far from it.

However, I do think Invincible does proof all the "superman is Op" complaints are nonsensical. Nobody is complaining the temu Kryptonians, the Viltrumites, are OP and in fact everyone is cheering on them for being powerhouses.

While Superman gets knocked out by an electric fence, invincible just had their characters destroying a planet.

My point is writers should stop being scared of showing a strong Superman. It goes without saying those stories should also fit Superman's character.

The best thing to improve Superman is to do what John Byrne did and dial his powers down to the 1950s level.

A character that is too powerful just gets ridiculous, and a Superman who is very powerful but still has limits is much more interesting.

 

[Mystery Spy]

The best thing to improve Superman is to do what John Byrne did and dial his powers down to the 1950s level.

A character that is too powerful just gets ridiculous, and a Superman who is very powerful but still has limits is much more interesting.

I do agree " Superman is OP" used to be true. By no means he should be invincible. Pre-crisis Superman is the posterboy of an OP character. And Kryptonite became nessesary for a reason.

But I would argue this hasn't been an issue since the pre-crisis era ended. It's been ages since Byrne's nerf has been the standard.

" Superman is OP" hasn't been true in decades.

 

[Humble Architect]

I mean the solution is obvious. Superman getting stronger with age. He’s already got a leg up on other Kryptonians by growing up under a yellow sun, Kara being “stronger than him” is a joke and KC shows this to fatal effect. Do make it what sets him apart.

Clark in his teens and early twenties? Golden Age power. Clark in his late twenties and early thirties, Post-Crisis default. Grant did this but with all things he fucked it up.

This enables stories told at all power levels in the same continuity and lets him progress the way Batman does. As he takes the hits and continues to do his thing, he’s getting stronger and more resilient. Throw in all the things that happen (Death and Return) his skill creep becomes unique. Other Kryptonians get to age fifty but they aren’t shrugging off the funny rock or seeing an increase, because even among his own kind, he’s unique.

If more Kryptonians are a must, then this keeps his “Last Son” mantle intact. You can be a Kryptonian on Earth but you ain’t the Last Son, you’re not him.

This can also justify the weirdness that he gets into (red and blue chads) and new powers nobody else has, one of a kind.

 

[Basic Blond Boy]

Scarecrow can be disabled by having a gas mask

He is able to perform injections as well. The Arkham games even gave him those needle gloves for this exact purpose.


He is also a martial artist fairly skilled in scythe/sickle combat, something that doesn’t come up to often, unfortunately.

One has to accept that Crane is stuck as potential man the character. He could easily be the most interesting Bat villain and a real menace, but writers always choose to sideline him or write him as fear gas guy.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

Can Superman throw an object so hard he himself can't catch it?

Yes. A MLB pitcher can throw a ball at 90 MPH. If it weren't for the pitcher aiming at the strike zone, no one would catch it. Therefore, to scale it up to Supes, he can fling an object as hard as he can, but then he'd have to exceed the speed of the object he just threw so that he can get in front of it to catch it. And no, he can't play catch with himself because for him to throw a ball all the way around the Earth would risk the ball hitting some innocent bird, plane, low-hanging satellite, or skyscraper.