Disco Elysium - Insane Drunken Cop Simulator RPG GotY 2019

[Lemmingwise]

Which characters are you referring to?

Should be obvious.

Are you gonna debate me on this and think you can prove me wrong? Go at it.

 

[Rich Evans Apologist]

Should be obvious.

Are you gonna debate me on this and think you can prove me wrong? Go at it.

All I'm gonna do is ask you to name the characters and point out the commie dogma you're referencing. Other people haven't been able to do that. Can you step up to the plate?

 

[Lemmingwise]

All I'm gonna do is ask you to name the characters and point out the commie dogma you're referencing. Other people haven't been able to do that. Can you step up to the plate?

You're only interested in there not being commie cardboard cutout characters, but the others are fine?

 

[Rich Evans Apologist]

You're only interested in there not being commie cardboard cutout characters, but the others are fine?

Where did I say that? I'll go a little slower.
Name the racist, the communist, the capitalist, and the fascist cardboard cutouts.
If you can, also point to the commie left-wing dogma.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Where did I say that?

You didn't, but you did focus only on commie dogma, so that's why I asked. On top of that, you already mentioned the character defined by racism, so what's the point of naming him? You've played this game everyday since it came out, so you don't really need to play coy. I was making a general broad statement and that should be obvious. I'm not used to people wanting to debate the exact details of a game like it's the week before an election.

I don't remember the names of characters in a game I played like 2 years ago. But you know what characters I mean.

So make your defense on why the characters are very deep and versatile and well written. Pick the gaysian sidekick if you want.

 

[Rich Evans Apologist]

You didn't, but you did focus only on commie dogma, so that's why I asked.

A little too ensconsed in communist narrative and left wing clichés to have mirth playing it.

It's your complaint, man.

On top of that, you already mentioned the character defined by racism, so what's the point of naming him?

Sure, just name the other three. Racist Lorry Driver has Racist in his name exactly to make oversensitive people drop the game.
Agreeing with his takes is a viable way to access information / progress once he starts to like you, it just pisses Kim off.

I was making a general broad statement and that should be obvious.

I don't remember the names of characters in a game I played like 2 years ago. But you know what characters I mean.

It'd take less characters to write the names of the characters you dislike and to point to the commie left-wing shit that ensconces the game.

I'm not used to people wanting to debate the exact details of a game like it's the week before an election.

You tagged me, holmes.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Racist Lorry Driver has Racist in his name exactly to make oversensitive people drop the game.

That's the dumbest reason to change the name of one of the characters in your game and if that was the motivation it supports my thesis rather than undermines it. I don't know what the motivation was; where are you getting that from? Is that your interpretation or result of an interview?

You can go back to the first pages of the thread and see that things like this is what initially drew me to the game; but then I thought there may be depth to these things. Please tell me they didn't change the name of one of their characters so they can go "don't go into our clubhouse!" on people that bought their game.

You tagged me, holmes.

I don't really see the point of debating the merits of entertainment; you give your take, I give my take, that's about it. But I am a cantankerous bastard and I'll admit I can be roped into an autistfest like this. I'm just curious why you are so defensive about it; why do you love the writing so much?

names of the characters you dislike

Do you want a list of all characters in the game? It's not about me liking or disliking characters. It's about it all being as flat as a board. Feel free to pick any character that you meet in the first 2-3 hours of gameplay including the fat boss and his supposedly hidden twin brother in the other container.

 

[Rich Evans Apologist]

I don't know what the motivation was; where are you getting that from?

Spoiler: It's a hunch.

He's the first politically aligned character most people will run into, and is usually going to be the first adversarial character other than the barkeeper. The only other character with a determinant like that is Gary the Cryptofascist, who doesn't show up until much later in the game, presumably after you've been to his apartment.
I actually don't know if his title shows up if you haven't visited his apartment, which Evrart forces you to do.

The reason I have the hunch is that the racist lorry driver could have just been called 'lorry driver' with nothing changed. I was initially bothered by why they included the descriptor. The game mocks every political faction, but as I've said before its metanarrative actually shows the fascist characters to be the least destructive. I think 'racist' was as a result thrown in there to:
a) get a pass in 2019 on allowing the player to be a racist in order to progress the game, knowing that journos generally only play the first 1-2 hours of a game if that
b) generate a lot of negative buzz from people who would have eventually dropped it anyways because they don't like their politics being made fun of, which in turn would get it fawning press and more eyes besides.

When you filter for negative reviews on steam, the number of people who cite the lorry driver as their reason for quitting is astronomical.

I'm just curious why you are so defensive about it; why do you love the writing so much?

Spoiler: gushing

It's a revolution for the medium. Games have very often been seen as being purely escapist, with no potential for it to expand beyond that. I have no problem with escapism in games, mind, I simply want more options and more exploration of the medium. Most of the people who want games to be more mature are retards on the level of the Yiik developer, and many of the games that try to tell more mature narratives wind up being awful, retarded, reductive drivel whether they're AAA or Indie. Mankind Divided and 'Sunset' or whatever the fuck that was come to mind.

To me, Disco Elysium is a proof of concept that you can tell a mature story through the medium and unique to the medium in an RPG format (rather than something like Spec Ops). For its flaws and its initial rough landing, its promise is immense and its worldbuilding is fantastic. I want more games that adroitly examine political elements as to how they impact characters and the world. I want more games that don't present the player with a neat, tidy story in which you're the chosen one and you save the day and get everyone to realize how good and smart you are. I want more games where you can shoot, beat up a bodybuilder with a spin-kick, or agree with his ideology in order to get a dead body out of a tree.

Beyond that, I think the UI is sleek and the idea of passive skill-checks unlocking so much dialogue, content and options is something I think RPGs have desperately needed more of. The guiding principle that works for most of the game that failure is not the end and may in fact unlock more interesting pathways is also something I want more creators to take note of, and the way that the skill system works is fantastic for making all the various choices feel like viable options and skill points a meaningful resource, rather than how most RPGs are just munchkin-oriented.
Much of it - the clothing system, having to run from side to side of the map, and certain pathways still being blocked off if you fail singular skill checks could use some work, and its original ending with the cops was pretty bad. But no-one's praising Planescape: Torment's combat, either.

It's about it all being as flat as a board.

I don't really see it, especially not compared to its contemporaries. Bioware and Obsidian don't write anything close to this.

Spoiler: a few specific instances with video accompaniment. spoilers in those obviously

Here's a dialogue arc of Evrart Claire, as you mentioned (this guy playing is a fucking cocksucker but there's not a lot of silent playthroughs). His characterization as a charismatic and corrupt union boss is fantastic and campy. But beyond that, he's also characterized by what other characters say and think about him -- from the Hardie Boys to the weird autistic painter guy to Joyce. And by the fact that he's risking the entire port in a gamble that he won't blink first with the company management, to the point where he's actively involved in hampering/bribing a police investigation and obfuscating a murder. He's built up for the entire first arc of the game, and then when you get to him, he's clearly fucking with you and you have to try to figure out whether to play along or if you can outsmart him.

Joyce Messier is someone who takes constant pity on the player's character, though she also uses him (as Kim warns) as a pliant pawn. It's difficult to tell when she is and isn't being sincere, when she is and isn't lying, and what he end goal is. She's the arm of a corrupt business entity that's resented by everyone in the town you work in, and her stature and background make it clear that she's led a fairly comfortable life compared to the town. The fact that she expresses remorse and is uncertain of her own next step, as well as that she has an earnest desire to actually prevent violence from breaking out that overrides her objectives and that Evrart's entire gamble is based on this, is a fascinating level of depth and contemplation that other devs just haven't shown they go outside enough to encounter. She's also usually the player's first exploration of the Pale, which is an interesting concept.

Cuno's annoying and abrasive and offensive personality contrasted with his shitty home life and how you can eventually adopt the kid and serve as a pseudo role-model if Kim bites the bullet; the Hardie Boys' alternations between simping and genuine compassion and their eventually coming to actually really like you; the overall pace (until you have to run from side to side); how Kim's relationship with Harry is quiet and understated and yet undoubtably evolves over the course of your gameplay for better or worse; the whole scene with the Deserter and all the metanarrative that just seeps out of it, the way Klasje is manipulating you from out the door and has her own reasons for being in the world and in the story which are only revealed to the player if the player breaks through so many layers of misinformation.

There's so much more going on with these characters than other RPGs, I don't know what it compares to. Sure, nobody pulls you aside and goes "here's my life story and motivations," like in an Obsidian or a Bioware game, but I wouldn't call that good writing. Most people you know as acquaintances, do you really know their ins and outs and a deep impression of the how and why they are?

Compared to the depth you can perhaps put into a novel or a long-run television show, sure, there's a tradeoff. Harry has to both be a defined character and a character that one could see reasonably taking any of the various ridiculous paths that he does. The game has to progress based on the player's failures rather than the convenience of a plot always following a set a-b-c. Disco Elysium isn't an end-destination in game narrative to me, but rather a breakthrough on the way to something greater and more wholly realized. Though it happens to stand well on its own merits to boot.

 

[Lemmingwise]

When you filter for negative reviews on steam, the number of people who cite the lorry driver as their reason for quitting is astronomical.

Yeah, people don't like retarded design choices.

And of course as the ardent defender you say that the developers intentionally added something that would be disliked to a tremendous degree. Except now you're saying that it's to garner up positive press. That's about as anthetical to art as you can get; that's just advertising.

Bioware and Obsidian don't write anything close to this.

Bioware has never had good writing and I don't think obsidian even ever had writing, so that is being damned by faint praise.

Gary the Cryptofascist

God, that is even a worse name.

Beyond that, I think the UI is sleek and the idea of passive skill-checks unlocking so much dialogue, content and options is something I think RPGs have desperately needed more of

It's not an innovation. Even games like "long live the queen" have that and that is far from the first too. You'd probably like that game a lot.

I want more games that adroitly examine political elements as to how they impact characters and the world.

Go play hidden agenda.

I want more games that don't present the player with a neat, tidy story

Go play roguelikes or other games where the story is created by your own path, or anything open world.

Disco Elysium isn't an end-destination in game narrative to me, but rather a breakthrough on the way to something greater and more wholly realized. Though it happens to stand well on its own merits to boot.

It doesn't do anything that planescape torment didn't. If you want to see the breakthrough, play that. I like that they were inspired by it and they've tried some interesting things. The attempt is laudible.

It's a revolution for the medium.

It doesn't do anything that hasn't been done before.

But thanks for telling me why you love it; it's always nice to read someone's genuine passion. I certainly don't understand it, but it's still nice to read why you think it's good.

 

[Dark Edea]

Is this game based? Racist characters in a game sounds pretty open-minded and based. Tired of boring, samey games made by dangerhairs.

But thanks for telling me why you love it; it's always nice to read someone's genuine passion. I certainly don't understand it, but it's still nice to read why you think it's good.

Wow what a bitch.

 

[Orange Rhymer]

Is this game based? Racist characters in a game sounds pretty open-minded and based. Tired of boring, samey games made by dangerhairs.


Wow what a bitch.

no. It's the same, tired CY indie crap.
The Neutral Milk Hotel of indie gaming.

It should come with a Che Guvara t-shirt.

 

[Lemmingwise]

When you filter for negative reviews on steam, the number of people who cite the lorry driver as their reason for quitting is astronomical.

PS I tried this experiment and on the first page not a single one mentioned the lorry driver and only 1 mentioned racism at all. And that was as part of a general critique of the game feeling like teenage/undergrad political thinking.

I guess you're not very accurate with your statements either.

 

[Rich Evans Apologist]

Bioware has never had good writing and I don't think obsidian even ever had writing, so that is being damned by faint praise.

Sure. What's a contemporary that does? There are abstract games like Killer7 or SUDA's other early works which tell mature stories, but they're a vastly different flavor palette.
Although I will say that people praise New Vegas and Mask of the Betrayer as Obsidian's narrative accomplishments, even if the former is mostly camp and the latter is a lesser PS:T.

God, that is even a worse name.

The racist is a racist; the cryptofascist is a cryptofascist. It's jarring with the rest of the game, but comical that that was all it took to throw so many overboard.

Even games like "long live the queen" have that and that is far from the first too. You'd probably like that game a lot.

Plenty of games have them, sure. Even old-ass RPGs had them. Never to this degree, never with this diverse a range of skills, never with this many different voices. Their appearance in older games largely just bar you from 'optimal' solutions, where failing the passive check is always just a negative. DE has a few passive checks which, when passed, give you options which are arguably worse than failing them.

Go play hidden agenda.

Forgive me if I don't imagine the Man of Medan guys plus a cop thriller equals a logical infusion of political introspection. I'll look at a walkthrough; I hate the Supermassive 'game' loop.

Go play roguelikes or other games where the story is created by your own path, or anything open world.

Sure, I play those just fine. It's a different itch. DE is a defined world, a defined character, and defined routes dictated by chance and choice; there aren't exactly heroes, you don't change the world, and it's a walk through a sliver of a much wider world. I greatly enjoy The Witcher 2's story but don't really enjoy the Witcher 3's for this reason: I enjoy stories from the perspective of a character in a world, not a character the world (or the story) revolves wholly around.

The fact that you can't stop the mercenaries from going on a rampage and that the game doesn't tell you the 'right' way to think are tremendous plusses to me.

It doesn't do anything that planescape torment didn't.

Planescape Torment is a well-written delve into a strange and alien world that offers a million different ways to skin a cat, sure. But it had a completely shit skill system, it mostly barred 'better' options behind its skill checks, and I would feign call it a 'mature' story. Sure, there's graphic descriptions of unpleasant things, and it's a complex and layered story with lots of fun bits to chew on -- but how does it invite the player's own life experiences to interface with it? What does it make you think about? You're a corpse-guy running around and making a goofy party in a wacky world of portals and endless bandits.

DE's skill system (including the thought cabinet), the way it manages time, and its subject matter are night and day from Planescape: Torment. PT showed that you could tell a good, complex story in the RPG medium. DE shows you can tell a good, complex, mature story in the RPG medium - and you can even critique real-world political systems in the medium. Not every element is necessarily unique or original, yet that would suggest that World of Warcraft didn't revolutionize MMOs.

I guess you're not very accurate with your statements either.

Yep, doesn't look like it anymore. I can't exactly snapshot you back to late 2019 when I was originally looking to see what the negatives of the game were, though.
The top-rated comments naturally filter up complaints about the system of particular design choices, which are generally on point.

Most of the 'most recent' negatives are discussing bugs or the removal of the original voices, looks to be.

 

[Dark Edea]

no. It's the same, tired CY indie crap.
The Neutral Milk Hotel of indie gaming.

It should come with a Che Guvara t-shirt.

I guess I'll just play the Red Faction and Guerilla again then.

 

[Terror Rism]

i think if you approach it as an actual political discussion piece, it is weak and shallow. that being said i'm really not sure how people get that impression because everything you get is set through the perspective of a drunk retard. it's literally a fucked up idiot man that has taken up every single political ideology over his lifetime and now can't remember which one he had at the time before he drank himself nearly to death. people aren't called "racist lorry driver" or "working class woman" because they consider that their identity, Harry is a dipshit and never learns their name or bothers to remember, and they're usually weirded out if you bring up the fact that he views them as a single political adjective. i think it works considerably better as a pure character-driven story than a politics-driven story as i believe the developers are on-record as having stated that they actively tried to not bore the player with pages of theory instead of jokes or a solid emotional core. harry's a lot more of a fun character if you understand that even he barely knows what the fuck he's talking about ideologically and is mostly posturing to make people like him, something that a lot of cringe-types took issue with when they learned the game only makes fun of you for being an unironic communist

like yeah, it's not planescape torment not much can be. but it's got more basic-level nuance and actual enjoyable plotlines than any garbage obsidian script or HBO series of the month that gets touted as "the best we've ever seen" every 6 months, and as a character drama focused on a single character i think it holds up a lot more than people give it credit for, it does it more with worldbuilding than with individual large-scale characters and interwoven backstories and it's harder to actually keep everything together in your head (or see that content at all). if you don't care about spoilers i wrote a surface-level drunken essay about what i feel to be the themes of the overall storyline and world back in the thread here after playing the game a few times and doing a lot of thinking about the main character

also seriously if you want a politics game go play og deus ex what are you doing we've already peaked there's no need for anything else, this is just a step or two forward after we had like fucking 30 steps backwards in the last 15 years with videogames we aint gonna get there fast.

 

[Rich Evans Apologist]

i think if you approach it as an actual political discussion piece, it is weak and shallow.

It depends on how you view it, I think. It doesn't outwardly state anything deep about politics, and the characters are naturally dramatized to the point where they're fairly unrealistic if you take them at face-value. But the Sunday Friend is basically just a guy there to discuss the EU and the EU's policies; when he started going into tax levels, I'd just read a few articles about ECB policy and I got deja-vu.

Many of the characters' perspectives and misgivings reflect post-soviet eastern Europe, and even arguably postwar Europe as a whole. Everything stated directly is basically just taking the piss and interfacing on a skindeep surface. The wider, unstated connections are the ones that I simp the most for - not dissimilar to how you looked to see the Deserter as a foil for Harry, and the deserter himself as something of a parable regarding ideology and politics.

also seriously if you want a politics game go play og deus ex

I want a game that is the first half of deus ex all the way through. I forgot half of the levels were even in that game when I last played through. There's been a lot of fertile real-world material in the last two decades to dig into, but people aren't digging.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Forgive me if I don't imagine the Man of Medan guys plus a cop thriller equals a logical infusion of political introspection. I'll look at a walkthrough; I hate the Supermassive 'game' loop.

No I mean the OG hidden agenda game, where you run a country called "chimerica", that mixes historical events of a number of central america countries and you have to decide to which politicians to trust. A bit like the recent game suzerain, but a little more dynamic. One where you talk with 25 or so different people from lowliest landworker and rights activists to IMF loan givers and US and USSR ambassadors.

Hidden Agenda

Remember Hidden Agenda, an old video game from 1989? Download it and play again on MyAbandonware.

www.myabandonware.com

Despite some of the historical accuracies, the game has an obvious left wing bent, so you'd probably like that too, though you probably wouldn't notice it there either.

The racist is a racist; the cryptofascist is a cryptofascist. It's jarring with the rest of the game, but comical that that was all it took to throw so many overboard.

It breaks essential show don't tell of good storytelling. Cryptofascist in moniker is particularly dumb since crypto means it's supposedly hidden. It's like introducing someone as "Hi I'm Bill the closeted gay guy".

First, I don't see a single review saying that's why people threw it away, so that's mostly in your mind. But considering you admit it's jarring, it wouldn't be weird if it were the case. People are obviously going to mention the most jarring thing why they quit. In the sample of reviews I looked at, people thought the political ideas were too surface level, that to have skill rolls led to annoying quick-save/load situation (I agree: long live the queen actually designed that better) and it being grindy and run back and forth all the time.

Never to this degree, never with this diverse a range of skills

Lol, play more games.

What does it make you think about?

Plenty.

What can change the nature of a man?

What are the rewards of betraying your people (Vilquar)?

Was Zerthimon broken by torture?

The Witcher 2's story but don't really enjoy the Witcher 3's for this reason: I enjoy stories from the perspective of a character in a world, not a character the world (or the story) revolves wholly around.

The fact that you can't stop the mercenaries from going on a rampage and that the game doesn't tell you the 'right' way to think are tremendous plusses to me.

Yeah I prefer non-chosen one stories too. You might like that story of Bronte game.

 

[Rich Evans Apologist]

No I mean the OG hidden agenda game, where you run a country called "chimerica", that mixes historical events of a number of central america countries and you have to decide to which politicians to trust.

Ahh, okay. That looks a lot more interesting, yeah.

though you probably wouldn't notice it there either.

The reason that I ask people to point them out isn't because I don't see things. It's because it's pointless to contend with a lazy critique, and this is a way to separate out a lazy critique from something you can actually grapple with. Someone that can point to why they feel DE goes easier on left-wing stuff offers something to think about; the empty one is only offering and seeking validation.

Cryptofascist in moniker is particularly dumb since crypto means it's supposedly hidden.

That's why I'm not sure if the game shows that before you visit his apartment. When you visit his apartment, you realize it's his mug and he has a bunch of crap lying around (as well as the cryptozoologists' stuff). On second thought with the idea of the names being how Harry has shorthand for them that Terror Rism introduced, maybe it's just wordplay because he's a friend of the cryptozoologists (who have that in their title cards as well, if I remember).

It is fair to say that the guy should be just "Lorry Driver" until he says something racist, though, same as the Cryptofascist. Same for the Deserter's title card; plenty of other games have done the namecard-change trick.
To that end, I did dig up one recent review kvetching. I'm afraid it's just my truth that when I picked this game up in late 2019, I saw no small number of these in the 'most recent' dropdowns at the time.

Lol, play more games.

Such as?
The narrative flow of DE with the passive checks was fantastic. I want more games like that - shit like Pillars, Kingmaker, Baldur's, NWN, etc are all pretty pale in that regard. The fact that there aren't stats like Divinity's "barter" which become fully useless about ten minutes into the game is also frustratingly fresh.

What can change the nature of a man?

In a goofy world of magic, portals to everywhere that require bizarre keys, eternal and reoccurring life, active and evident deities, people set on fire forever, and necrophiliac tieflings.
I don't even know what the nature of a man is in that universe.

What are the rewards of betraying your people (Vilquar)?

I'll be sure to think about it when I'm in a position to do the same in a world of literal devils and demons and your moral compass juicing up spells. It's all interesting, sure, and it's well-written. It's fun to chew on in its universe, and among escapist stories, having those kind of abstract moral dilemmas or considerations is a boon to the overall experience.

Yet for all the obvious dramatization of the story itself, the more down-to-earth setting (barring the Pale) of DE grounds its themes of redemption, attractions to political ideologies, what ideological convictions can do to a human, so-on.
While preference between the two narrative styles is obviously a matter of personal taste, they're also fundamentally different in their appeal as a result.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Such as?

Games with narrative locked behind complex skill system? Fallout 1, 2, long live the queen, maybe even princess maker, The Life and Suffering of Sir Brante. And that's excluding the numerous text-only games, which names much like the characters of disco I don't remember.

It is fair to say that the guy should be just "Lorry Driver" until he says something racist, though, same as the Cryptofascist. Same for the Deserter's title card; plenty of other games have done the namecard-change trick.

It's still dumb then. I think besides my critique of it being poor storytelling; it's also noticable that it happens twice for right wing views and not for other types of views? It's one of the clearcut examples where the developers views shine through; but it's noticable in many other parts as well. In fact; the whole demoralized "the world is shit through and through" view is very much aligned with certain left-wing anarchist types of worldview. You name it as part of why you enjoy it; others would name it as a reason why they don't.

Though I am on your side with wishing for more stories where you're not a type of chosen one.

I'll be sure to think about it when I'm in a position to do the same in a world of literal devils and demons and your moral compass juicing up spells. It's all interesting, sure, and it's well-written. It's fun to chew on in its universe, and among escapist stories, having those kind of abstract moral dilemmas or considerations is a boon to the overall experience.

In a goofy world of magic, portals to everywhere that require bizarre keys, eternal and reoccurring life, active and evident deities, people set on fire forever, and necrophiliac tieflings.
I don't even know what the nature of a man is in that universe.

This is an absurd criticism in the context of a discussion about disco elysium where a man converses with his 16 personalities with a perpetually stuck face.

 

[Terror Rism]

i think this stopped being about a videogame awhile ago.