Dr. Who

but there's always people discovering the show one way or another.
I always though I might like to get into Dr. Who someday (I find old British shows comfy). I didn't know the Doctor got- is reincarnated the right word?- every season or so and had a bit of a shock just reading the name Ncuti Gatwa.Maybe he was good idk but my gut is telling me you lot are getting the same DEI treatment as a lot of the IPs I enjoy.
 
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Potential for "Two Ronnies" gags but no-one in the current audience would be old enough to remember them
Ok, so it turns out there was a "2 Ranis" one-liner in the last episode. Good on ya Anita.

The pretext for regeneration/the whole ending was rather ham-fisted, but it all makes sense in the light of a hastily-rewritten conclusion. Still:

The Belinda at the end of the series isn't the same one that Doctor Gay began to travel with.
Yeah Belinda's character arc leaves a lot to be desired. A character who wasn't instantly enamoured of the Doctor, who talked back to him and criticised his decisions/actions would have been a good change of pace from recent Doctor-companion relationships. But no, she had to become another gushing fangirl.
 
Nobody wants to watch a gay black Doctor run around in a skirt, it's embarrassing and strange and confusing.
If I wanted to watch a gay nigger from outer space there's already a movie for that, it's like 20 minutes long and it's funny.
 
On this, I agree. I'm a bit of a purist. If a character is white and male to start, I expect him to stay white and male. If you have the balls to suggest that it is somehow "important" that a character is female or black or gay, then I'm going to tell you that it is equally important for that character to have been what he originated as.
I don't care what skin colour he is. I only care if it's suddenly used to do lots of polemic episodes about race. He's an alien so there should be no cultural baggage associated with it. (Though of course the writers don't understand that and introduce it). Swapping sex though is a bit more of a step. I didn't want it but primarily because I knew what would come with it - both in terms of politics and in terms of writing. The classic Doctor was pretty much asexual. I still remember a friend and I exclaiming "The Doctor doesn't kiss people!" when we watched the TV movie with Paul McGann. So it was dabbled with on occasion but broadly not. However you cannot have a female doctor without bringing in a level of sexual tension to the dynamic she has with her companions. Short of casting a more elderly school ma'am type or someone very physically atypical.

Of course you might tell me that ship (ha ha) has sailed with RTD from the start, and I'd be forced to agree.

Interestingly, he was at a con with Piper a couple of years back (which is where the famous 'sack Russel, sack Julie!' quote comes from) so I wonder when exactly she agreed to be a part of the show again. The pair are meant to reunite at another con July 19th if I remember correctly, so I'm sure there'll be some very interesting clips from that Q&A.
I remember that. However, she refrained from saying anything too self-implicating herself. I suspect she knew exactly where she was coming from and she didn't say anything to disagree but she was careful not to burn her bridges. What I enjoyed most from that talk was the big cheer of support he got from the crowd when he talked about sacking RTD. That surprised me.

and it could have just been a last desperate publicity stunt to try to get the show renewed.
I'm sorry but I think this has to be "is" not "could". They're addicted to "surprise" and "big reveals". It's all they have and they have to continually up the dosage like a junkie. None of it makes sense - it's just press whatever button they can find.

But the sheer level of work she's got done just makes me think it's some kind of mental issue, like body dysmorphia or something.
It could be a case of throwing good money after bad and repeated attempts to fix things. Some botox or filler that made things look worse, so go in for more to fix that, now it's worse so go for another round. Just botched attempt after botched attempt. I feel sorry for her. She was pretty and it hasn't made her look young, it's bumped right off the A->Z of aging to some side parallel track that you'd never have reached through the course of nature. Acting is a cruel profession on aging, but she is talented. I realised that when I saw the Cassandra episode and saw her bopping back and forth between Cassandra's voice and mannerisms and Rose's. And interview she was very different from her character.

Andor in particular really seems to be a part of that, these manchildren are gleeful that their favorite toy-show is talking about political stuff like immigration and rape so they can feel like a big boy when they reference Star Wars the next time their shitlib friends bring up the issues.
My experience here is different. I was never really a Star Wars fan but I thought Andor was very good. So I made the mistake of dropping into the Star Wars thread to discuss it and the man-children there were so angry about the show. For not being "Star Wars".

But I guess there are all sorts of cultural pockets.

I don't share the same view, while as I've gotten older my tastes have changed, I still enjoy things like Star Wars and Doctor Who, I just recognize that they're generally meant for a younger audience, but I can find things that I like about them as an adult as well.
Again, I respectfully disagree. Classic Who wasn't originally meant for kids exactly. It was family entertainment. From an era where homes had one television and the whole family would decide what to watch. That may be why you always had what they called "something for the dads".
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And the storylines weren't patronising. Some of them were really quite adult. I feel with its increasingly frenetic pacing and cheap stunts, it became a lot more focused towards kids. The two big Who fans I knew in real life were women in their forties. They both fancied David Tenant (I bet they don't now) and I doubt were particularly pleased to see a female Doctor appear.

She really was sabotaged by Chibnall who insisted she not watch any of the show before taking on the role which just fucking kneecapped her
I never realised that wasn't her decision. I read her saying that she'd never watched Who even before her audition and I thought that was terrible. But she has my forgiveness if it was Chinballs who actually instructed her not to. What a terrible idea. Matt Smith is my favourite Doctor and he deliberately took inspiration from my other favourite Doctor which is the second one (Patrick Trouhton).

This is all rumors and whatnot but my understanding is that Russel and his cohorts at the BBC basically went out of their way to destroy his career after he left. He quit over the working conditions and how the crew were being overworked and in unsafe conditions but no one on the production staff or at the BBC cared. They announced that he was leaving because he was "very tired", basically implying that he was lazy or unable to handle the workload. (This is also where the line 10 has about Harriet Jones comes from, "She looks tired, doesn't she?" Basically Russel twisting the knife.) So he had to go to the states to work because he was totally blacklisted from British television.
Ecclestone gets treated badly a lot. He apparently went quite full on with his role in Thor: The Dark World only to have his part cut down to almost a cameo when he's the main villain! The guy really applies himself to his roles and I respect that. But producers don't seem to.

In case anyone wasn't watching the finale live, after it ended we got a teaser for a spin-off called The War Between the Land and the Sea about UNIT and the Sea Devils. Written by RTD and starring one of his favourites, Russell Tovey, who had a brief role in a Tennant episode.
Nuh-uh. They lured me into watching the pirate Christmas special with Jodie Whitaker by baiting me with Sea Devils. I turned it off half-way through. I'm not falling for that again!
 
Again, I respectfully disagree. Classic Who wasn't originally meant for kids exactly. It was family entertainment. From an era where homes had one television and the whole family would decide what to watch.
When the series first came back and I started seeing webpages about whether or not Who was too scary for kids or not I was seriously confused, Now they race swap historical figures.
 
When the series first came back and I started seeing webpages about whether or not Who was too scary for kids or not I was seriously confused, Now they race swap historical figures.
"Hiding behind the sofa" was a grand tradition with Doctor Who. It was supposed to be scary. Compare classic Who where a man begs his own daughter to kill him as he's slowly transformed into a Dalek:

with current Dalek portrayal:

Now ignore the difference in special effects of different eras and focus on the acting, the direction and what is actually happening in the scene. And tell me which one is actually scary! Who was supposed to be scary sometimes.
 
"Hiding behind the sofa" was a grand tradition with Doctor Who. It was supposed to be scary. Compare classic Who where a man begs his own daughter to kill him as he's slowly transformed into a Dalek:

with current Dalek portrayal:

Now ignore the difference in special effects of different eras and focus on the acting, the direction and what is actually happening in the scene. And tell me which one is actually scary! Who was supposed to be scary sometimes.
Huh. I watched all my Who on PBS, but I'm also a big horror fan, so I don't really remember anything scary. My parents were pretty permissible about what I could watch as well - the only thing I was not allowed to watch was the episode of V when the alien baby hybrid was born.

I'm guessing maybe PBS sanitized it for kids, which is weird because normally over here we're more okay with violence and less with nudity than you guys are there, I mean the squeaky ghost children in Silent Hill over here were made into teddy bears in England. But also I think they did an Omnibus sort of thing on the weekends but with Episodes every day, like they do with Coronation Street here.

Also to be fair there wasn't an Internet then too.

TIL, thank you!
 
Huh. I watched all my Who on PBS, but I'm also a big horror fan, so I don't really remember anything scary. My parents were pretty permissible about what I could watch as well - the only thing I was not allowed to watch was the episode of V when the alien baby hybrid was born.

I'm guessing maybe PBS sanitized it for kids, which is weird because normally over here we're more okay with violence and less with nudity than you guys are there, I mean the squeaky ghost children in Silent Hill over here were made into teddy bears in England. But also I think they did an Omnibus sort of thing on the weekends but with Episodes every day, like they do with Coronation Street here.

Also to be fair there wasn't an Internet then too.

TIL, thank you!
No idea if they sanitised it. But different cultures can have odd hang-ups. Like the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were renamed and dubbed Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles in the UK because the British government is terrified of ninjas. I'm not kidding. Even laws on swords are different based on whether it's a straight bladed thing or if it looks like a katana. Basically the British government believed all the 80's ninja mania about them being supernaturally deadly, slicing through the anything, etc.

For Americans, I could well see them drawing a distinction between "normal" violence in kid's shows and the sort of horror in the clip above. I think a lot of Americans didn't really get that in Britain Doctor Who isn't "Sci-Fi" in the way Americans have all this weird clique stuff about "geek culture" and stuff. Doctor Who was as mainstream as any evening soap for us. It actually offended me on some low instinctive level when some Americans I knew started talking about being "geeks" and Doctor Who being a "geek show" or "girls don't like sci-fi" and such crap. Literally the people I knew who were Who fans were middle aged women and when I went to the 50th Anniversary movie at my local cinema, the age ranges were absolutely all over the place from 14 year old girls to men and women in their sixties. And the sex ratio was either fairly even or even tilted slightly towards female. Hell, I saw a teenage girl dressed as Tom Baker. It is the most normal mainstream thing in the UK. Sorry, I'm going off on one here - I just hate how US cultural export of the "Geek" got projected onto other cultures.

By way of palette cleanser after my rant, I just came across this when looking up those clips I posted. Cracked me up for anyone who hasn't seen this guy:
 
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No idea if they sanitised it. But different cultures can have odd hang-ups. Like the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were renamed and dubbed Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles in the UK because the British government is terrified of ninjas. I'm not kidding. Even laws on swords are different based on whether it's a straight bladed thing or if it looks like a katana. Basically the British government believed all the 80's ninja mania about them being supernaturally deadly, slicing through the anything, etc.
A whole lot of this kind of shit stems from how centralised the UK gubmint is in London relative even to some other unitary states, where for various non-critical issues and departments (i.e. shit that can be neglected without some kind of very public catastrophic event) you would have a quango set up where couple of often hilariously out of touch London based nepo hires or party sycophants (or just straight up autists who were the only ones interested in the job) constitute the sole and technically legally binding authority on everything with regards to their department/issue in the country and are also really fucking difficult to fire due to the nature of a quango.

Naturally this results in some incredibly fucking bizarre regulations at best and obscenely retarded censorship and fringe political diktats being forced on both public and institutions who universally reject and despise them, but by that point its too much of a headache for the gubmint to get rid of the retards responsible since it would mean assigning goons to take over its responsibilities, so the general course of action is to quietly ignore the discontent and hope the quango in question eventually gets a slightly less retarded staff.

The most relevant and one of the more infamous examples of this is the BBFC which by the 1980s effectively became an ultra-prudish censorship cult responsible for a just downright embarrassing level of censorship in UK film and television, and which was only really made impotent by the rise of the internet which it too tried to censor to hell and back, and which its spiritual successors continue to try and censor to hell and back even in the age of the VPN

EDIT: With regards to the wider "everything is centred in/based in London and thus subject to the whims of the London political class" issue, because various institutions/charities/etc are also inevitably based in London they will also wind up reflecting the shit I mentioned above which is the source of most of the batshit insane woke retardation headlines you see from the UK about how the Vikings have been declared diverse people of colour or Cheese has been declared institutionally imperialist. Its inevitably some DEI consultancy or HR manager produced pamphlet or training materials pushed by a handful of retards or even a singular retard in the London office that the rest of the institution just tries like hell to ignore or bury because of how much shit will be thrown at them for trying to implement.

Basically imagine if the entirety of the US national/state government and all US institutions and organisations of note were housed in San Fransisco and staffed almost entirely by upper middle class residents of San Fransisco, often politically active upper middle class residents of San Fransisco, and you will see where I am coming from with this
 
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In case anyone wasn't watching the finale live, after it ended we got a teaser for a spin-off called The War Between the Land and the Sea about UNIT and the Sea Devils. Written by RTD and starring one of his favourites, Russell Tovey, who had a brief role in a Tennant episode.
I'm starting to think this is going to be the RTD2 for 'Children of Earth'. A lot of the same vibes, planet wide existential threat, no Doctor in sight. And of course the setting and premise will be used to lecture the audience about "climate change".
I always though I might like to get into Dr. Who someday (I find old British shows comfy). I didn't know the Doctor got- is reincarnated the right word?- every season or so and had a bit of a shock just reading the name Ncuti Gatwa.Maybe he was good idk but my gut is telling me you lot are getting the same DEI treatment as a lot of the IPs I enjoy.
It's a good show for the most part, it really doesn't start to go to hell until the 2010s at which point it drops off a cliff and it's very easy to stop watching. There's also all the stuff from the 60s, 70s and 80s which can be enjoyable, it has its own charm.
If I wanted to watch a gay nigger from outer space there's already a movie for that, it's like 20 minutes long and it's funny.
The Hollywood remake kind of sucked though.

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It could be a case of throwing good money after bad and repeated attempts to fix things. Some botox or filler that made things look worse, so go in for more to fix that, now it's worse so go for another round. Just botched attempt after botched attempt
Yeah, I suppose so, I'm reminded of Pete Burns who had decades of trouble over some botched cosmetic surgery.
My experience here is different. I was never really a Star Wars fan but I thought Andor was very good. So I made the mistake of dropping into the Star Wars thread to discuss it and the man-children there were so angry about the show. For not being "Star Wars".
I don't mean to say Andor is terrible or a bad idea, I just mean that there is that segment of the fanbase who ritualistically consume [brand product] and they're thrilled that there's finally something 'adult' and 'mature' for them to gush about. And to me it feels like they're increasingly leaning into that angle for it, trying to subvert Star Wars and push the boundaries to make it more 'adult' and 'dark'. The showrunner or director or whatever of the episode with the attempted rape was doing this publicity tour about it talking about how "human history is rape" and it goes back to "x needs to be art, it needs to have a message!" which really just translates to "I want to be able to talk about my favorite manchild franchise without being laughed at."

And yeah, some threads here are pretty terrible - unreasonable spastics about or just people who take discussing lolcows too seriously. It is what it is though, it's very easy to just ignore them.

Again, I respectfully disagree. Classic Who wasn't originally meant for kids exactly.
I really meant to say kid appropriate, maybe more like family entertainment. You don't have to worry that the Doctor is going to make a joke about blowjobs with your 6 year old sitting next to you and you have to have a very uncomfortable conversation.

But there's even the other angle where the second run RTD's done is so nostalgia baity and self-referential, kids that age aren't going to know who David Tennant or Billie Piper are.

Ecclestone gets treated badly a lot. He apparently went quite full on with his role in Thor: The Dark World only to have his part cut down to almost a cameo when he's the main villain! The guy really applies himself to his roles and I respect that. But producers don't seem to.
Oh yeah, I was furious when I saw that movie because of that. That was pre-Capaldi so he was still my favorite Doctor, and I basically saw it just for him. So it was a piece of shit on top of cutting all of Eccleston's scenes. And Marvel in those days just killed the villain off every movie so there was no chance of a reprisal or maybe fixing the mistake of doing fuck all with him.
 
On this, I agree. I'm a bit of a purist. If a character is white and male to start, I expect him to stay white and male. If you have the balls to suggest that it is somehow "important" that a character is female or black or gay, then I'm going to tell you that it is equally important for that character to have been what he originated as.

If you want to stand on the idea that identity is important, then I will tell you that you are not allowed to say that characteristics like "white" and "male" are not important, because by saying that if you can easily replace a white and male character into something else, then you are either saying that identity isn't important, or you just hate white men and you may as well own up to it.
I'm kinda half-and-half on this.

Like, I get you insofar as how sometimes it feels like "identity" is a card pulled only when its convenient, and then conveniently shoved aside if its an identity they don't like.

But speaking as a nitpicky nerd.... well, the 1970s already had The Master regenerating into Doctor Doom, and that weird string of alternate forms Romana took at the beginning of "Destiny of the Daleks" (though IIRC all those forms were implied female). This is before even getting into the expanded universe and the idea of Time Lords being born from looms.

Also I think the time to complain about gender-switch regenerations would have been when The Master regenerated into Missy.

To me this is all academic as I regard everything after 1989 as glorified fanfiction (I might be willing to accept the 1996 movie, which I recall actually rather liking, but I should watch it again).
 
I always though I might like to get into Dr. Who someday (I find old British shows comfy). I didn't know the Doctor got- is reincarnated the right word?- every season or so and had a bit of a shock just reading the name Ncuti Gatwa.Maybe he was good idk but my gut is telling me you lot are getting the same DEI treatment as a lot of the IPs I enjoy.
You'd really enjoy it, but you bring up something interesting I wanna say: I was asking my little cousin if he's ever seen Doctor Who, now this kid has seen all the Marvels and is the prime age for Doctor Who, he obviously hadn't but I was showing him my old figure set from when I was a kid and explaining to him regeneration and he couldn't even grasp the concept. To me that was the death knell, when the target demographic for your show is forgetting a major part of British pop culture in favor of a declining but still beating American institution you're in trouble

And this is evident in how you, a newcomer, barely know what it is. For context usually it doesnt happen every season, but this era of the show's history has been such a shitshow the guy has only been in it for like 1.5 years. The Doctor is an alien who on the brink of death "regenerates" his body into a new face and personality, while still being the same being in soul and memories. The character and his species is supposed to have 13 lives, with possibility of bonus lives, but the lore has been fucked with for the past decade that the character went from having lived 14 lives as mostly white men to now having been 30 different shades of black girl, being able to regenerate infinitely and being able to split in half and create two versions of himself
 
It's a good show for the most part, it really doesn't start to go to hell until the 2010s at which point it drops off a cliff and it's very easy to stop watching. There's also all the stuff from the 60s, 70s and 80s which can be enjoyable, it has its own charm.
The question of where to stop watching is a tricky one. (IB4 "the return").

It's actually fascinating to watch from the very beginning, though of course you'd need to be someone who enjoyed old Sci-Fi for that (I am). But where to stop? I'd say certainly by the end of Capaldi's run as the Doctor (Twelth) but though there are some good episodes even near the end this is where for me it really starts the fatal decline. No fault of Capaldis. I kind of liked his Doctor.

What makes the question difficult is that there's a couple of big slumps but it picks itself back up again for a bit. The end of Tenant's run is a slog. Aside from Timothy Dalton acting everybody else off-screen as Rassillon, the special The End of Time is some of the most cringe-inducing rubbish I've seen. If the classic Daleks made kids hide behind the sofa, the Barak Obama cameo thing in The End of Time has the same effect on adults.

You can't give up Matt Smith, imo. So many good episodes and he's fun to watch. And Early Clara is one of my favourite companions (Clara, Martha and Donna in modern era, though I hear Donna came back and I'd stopped watching by then). And in classic era, Jaimie, Victoria, Liz Shaw (who ditched the Doctor off-screen because, and I quote, "all he wants is for someone to hold his test tubes and tell him how brilliant he is), First Romana and, naturally, Leela of the Seveteem.

I really meant to say kid appropriate, maybe more like family entertainment. You don't have to worry that the Doctor is going to make a joke about blowjobs with your 6 year old sitting next to you and you have to have a very uncomfortable conversation.
Yes. Precisely that. It's Family Entertainment. There may be gruesome themes but never crass. Well, never until RTD got hold of it and then he started sneaking the odd thing in.

But speaking as a nitpicky nerd.... well, the 1970s already had The Master regenerating into Doctor Doom, and that weird string of alternate forms Romana took at the beginning of "Destiny of the Daleks" (though IIRC all those forms were implied female). This is before even getting into the expanded universe and the idea of Time Lords being born from looms.

Also I think the time to complain about gender-switch regenerations would have been when The Master regenerated into Missy.
Actually that would be a reference to The Corsair. An unshown renegade Time Lord who Eleven mentions was a "she" a couple of times.

I had a nice head-canon about regeneration which mostly fit until recently where it (and everything else) got messed up. My head-cannon was firstly that the Doctor's uncontrolled messy regenerations were mainly a him-thing. I imagined for the more staid Time Lords regeneration is something they do under controlled conditions, mentally prepare for. It explains Romana alternating through forms before settling on one. Whereas the Doctor usually regenerates because of some chaotic and fatal incident. I also had the head-canon that each regeneration attempts to correct for the failings of the previous. Eleven is more detached than Ten who died from an excess of crying. Six is more violent than Five who died from poisoning and nearly failed to regenerate at all.

I think it works that a Time Lord could regenerate as a different sex. But that it would be a very rare and unusual thing. Modern Who has made it a coin flip. They also bring in a whole lot of unwanted gender politics like when a Time Lord says "finally, got rid of all that testosterone" on becoming female.

You'd really enjoy it, but you bring up something interesting I wanna say: I was asking my little cousin if he's ever seen Doctor Who, now this kid has seen all the Marvels and is the prime age for Doctor Who, he obviously hadn't but I was showing him my old figure set from when I was a kid and explaining to him regeneration and he couldn't even grasp the concept.
What do you mean he couldn't grasp the concept? How did he not understand? As a last ditch attempt to avoid death, a Time Lord (or Lady) goes into a crisis state where their entire body renews itself, taking on a new physical form, but retaining the memories of their former self. Values are largely retained (probably because values are formed by experience) but the personality can be different. How old is he?
 
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