Dr. Who

[FK009]

It's been normalized a while though because vampires. Twilight, and the Vampire Diaries are set in high schools, and the vampire is always the older one. Centuries age gap. So romantic!

The funny thing is I know a lot of people hate her but River Song to me is the idea of the Dcotor's love interest done right: she has to be a time travelling alien, or half-alien, like the Doctor in order for it not to be completely creepy. Rose was 19 in Series 1, Eccleston tells her he's 900 years old. You'd think for how woke these writers are they wouldn't be obsessed with a 881 year age gap

Funnily enough, I once saw a Studio C skit that made actually pointed this type of thing out by having Edward be 47, and it did make it creepier, but it did bring up a great point, it would have been so much less creepy if there was a 200 year age gap and he happened to look 17. I think that once you hit a certain threshold, for the general audiences, especially if the writers don’t make a big fuss about it, everyone subconsciously replaces “Impossibly ancient being” to “Magical Teen/Man”. Not saying you don’t have a point when we look at it objectively, just pointing it how people tend to think of it. TBH, this was a thing long before Twilight. To put it into perspective, in LoTR, Aragon is 87 or so, but looks young. His wife is 2900+ Years old. A 200 year age gap? Baby numbers. 881 year gap? You’re a rookie. Give me that 2813+ year age difference lol.

 

[Overly Serious]

This is where I think that you're smarter than the current average Doctor Who fan.

I've long said that one of my problems with modern Who is the focus on The Doctor's love life, which was none more evidenced than by the Nine-Ten/Rose love story, followed up later by Eleven/River. I think a lot of people lost interest in Capaldi - writers included - because he wasn't fuckable enough for fangirls.

If you can envision a better canon for Doctor Who than who The Doctor is available to fuck, it might just be because you have a better sense of intellectual curiosity than the typical fans do.

Pretty much this. The Doctor is largely asexual. Probably because Time Lords are extremely long lived so they need to be and because they're mentally so advanced that flirting for them is probably a years long process.

Only on a couple of occasions have I entertained the idea of the Doctor being romantically involved with a companion. And it certainly wasn't with Rose and it wasn't with River Song either. The latter in theory had the right set-up for a romantic interest in that she was supposedly equally intelligent and compatible. But it fell flat because she never once came across as equally intelligent and the actress had all the sex appeal of a plank of wood so the audience (at least this audience) couldn't really get on board with the idea.

Romana I had chemistry with Tom Baker. There was a subtle undercurrent that felt like Time Lord flirting and of course Mary Tamm was more than easy on the eyes. Plus they're both the same species. I feel that helps. The only other time I can think of (and here come the downvotes) is Clara and Eleven. They had chemistry, she was one of the smarter companions and the character had an emotional guard-rail that suggested she'd be able to be involved and then when the inevitable happened due to either age or Dalek, she wouldn't go all Amy Pond or Martha Jones about it. There was an easy familiarity between Eleven and Clara that really worked. They were completely comfortable with each other. Whereas the relationship between Nine and Rose was like... a rich old guy and his spoiled bratty arm-candy. It was all about entertaining her, protecting her, the works. And Martha, well honestly Martha deserved better than arbitrarily being paired off with Mickey in a post-story wrap up montage. She was intelligent, a doctor, ambitious. He was the tin dog.

Of course I know I'll get disagreement because they really fucked up the story and canon starting around the time of Clara, because the idea of the Doctor never being romantically involved at all is sacrosanct for some (the granddaughter came from somewhere, though!) and there was that dreadful way they packaged off Clara with the tiny viking woman (with whom she had no chemistry at all, unsurprisingly). Or that entirely forgettable guy from the school who she had almost less with.

But Jenna Louise-Coleman had the looks and the personality in buckets to get me on board with it and right from The Snowmen they were sparking off each other in a very entertaining way. So in nearly 900 episodes classic and new, Lord knows how many companions and guest stars, those are the TWO characters I think it would have worked to have romantic involvement with. And quite possibly did in canon but off screen because it's not that sort of show.

And before you reach for your keyboard to disagree with me, consider for a moment the anguished howls from all the Rose-shippers there would have been and tell me it wouldn't be music.

 

[BetterFuckChuck]

Only on a couple of occasions have I entertained the idea of the Doctor being romantically involved with a companion. And it certainly wasn't with Rose and it wasn't with River Song either. The latter in theory had the right set-up for a romantic interest in that she was supposedly equally intelligent and compatible. But it fell flat because she never once came across as equally intelligent and the actress had all the sex appeal of a plank of wood so the audience (at least this audience) couldn't really get on board with the idea.

not into British MILFs I take it?

 

[Overly Serious]

not into British MILFs I take it?

Hot ones, sure. And honestly for me personality can carry things a long way. But River Song had neither. It's not specifically her age. Though she was 45 when she first appeared in Forest of the Dead and was still playing the role at 52 which is pushing it a little for sexual tension. But there are women of that age who retain their beauty, I just never found her beautiful to begin with.


But it's the personality more than anything, I don't know what the actress is like but the character just came across as smug, domineering and entitled. And abrasive.

But I accept this is a personal opinion. (For the most part anyway. Though I think it's pretty clear to all that Smith and her never had the chemistry some other pairings have had). Anyway, I'll let you judge my taste: Hottest companions IMO were: Liz Shaw, Clara, Romana I, Martha Jones, Victoria. Honourable mentions to both Peri and Nyssa, primarily on just how likeable their actresses made their characters. Nicola Bryant could light up a room with her smile.

And at the opposite end: Teegan. I don't care what she looks like. She could be the most physically perfect creature to ever grace the Earth but that whiny fucking personality would drive me spare. And Mel, lovely though Bonnie Langford as a person is and not unattractive, similarly grates on the nerves.

Really, personality is a very big part of it. River Song is just a very unlikeable person and not physically appealing. Hell, Bill was more likeable than River Song and I don't find her attractive physically either.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

Of course I know I'll get disagreement because they really fucked up the story and canon starting around the time of Clara, because the idea of the Doctor never being romantically involved at all is sacrosanct for some (the granddaughter came from somewhere, though!) and there was that dreadful way they packaged off Clara with the tiny viking woman (with whom she had no chemistry at all, unsurprisingly). Or that entirely forgettable guy from the school who she had almost less with.

I think the issue (from my perspective at least) is less that "the doctor has to be asexual" and more that "An erudite scholarly character that is 1000 years old with kids and grandkids should not fall in love with the time lord equivallent of a monkey they've known for the time lord equivallent of a week."

Its not that the doctor is asexual, is that his notions of sexuality and romanticism should fundumentally not be compatible with human ones. They should be much more slow burn and much more slow paced than humans can even comprehend. Shotgun weddings don't make sense in a time lord society.

This is why River Song works conceptually (again from my perspective at least) because supposedly she and the doctor have been running into one another for hundreds of years and she can match him in some capacity.

I'm not fundumentally opposed to the doctor falling in love again, I am fundumentally opposed to the doctor falling in love with a human, doubly so a companion because they are supposed to be his proxy grandkids.

 

[blackface enthusiast]

I know very little about the lore of this series, but didn't the Doctor only have a certain amount of regenerations before he ran out? How many does he even have left?

It was kind of a throwaway line from the classic series that was never formally canonized but other writers began to run with it up until the revival, Steven Moffat recanonized the idea to close out Matt Smith's run.

 

[Overly Serious]

I think the issue (from my perspective at least) is less that "the doctor has to be asexual" and more that "An erudite scholarly character that is 1000 years old with kids and grandkids should not fall in love with the time lord equivallent of a monkey they've known for the time lord equivallent of a week."

Its not that the doctor is asexual, is that his notions of sexuality and romanticism should fundumentally not be compatible with human ones. They should be much more slow burn and much more slow paced than humans can even comprehend. Shotgun weddings don't make sense in a time lord society.

This is why River Song works conceptually (again from my perspective at least) because supposedly she and the doctor have been running into one another for hundreds of years and she can match him in some capacity.

I'm not fundumentally opposed to the doctor falling in love again, I am fundumentally opposed to the doctor falling in love with a human, doubly so a companion because they are supposed to be his proxy grandkids.

Oddly enough, we actually agree on pretty much all of that. The sole difference is that I make two exceptions. Romana I (who isn't wholly an exception anyway as she's also a Time Lord) and Clara. The latter not because of any of the "recurring across time" stuff which I think was a bad idea anyway, just because she was much more able to relate to him both emotionally and intellectually. One could say as a human she shouldn't be able to but on screen and she plainly could. And they had a great dynamic.

I'd also say that age isn't some purely linear progression. A thousand year old person isn't necessarily 10x smarter and deep than a hundred year old person. And pre-RTD he wasn't written as some god whose intellect was effectively a magical deus ex machina. If an 18 year old dates a 14 year old, that's a problematic gap. If a forty-year old guy dates a thirty year old, not so much. He might be 900 years old and Amy Pond 21, but the real problem is that Amy Pond acts like she's 21. Clara had the same sort of mix of maturity and fun about her that Smith's Doctor had. It's why he's my favourite Doctor. He could go very smoothly between ancient and weary to youthful and energetic in a moment. Tenant tried the same but he would melodrama it up so much. I said earlier Troughton was my other favourite Doctor. Both he and Smith have a calm that most of the other Doctors did not (maybe Five).

It was kind of a throwaway line from the classic series that was never formally canonized but other writers began to run with it up until the revival, Steven Moffat recanonized the idea to close out Matt Smith's run.

Actually, it was canonised. It's a plot point in The Five Doctors where the Master bargains with the Time Lords for a new regeneration cycle. I'd have to check but I think the number was mentioned there. And if not, it was certainly canonised that there was a fixed number and new cycle could be given.

 

[blackface enthusiast]

Yeah the concept of limited regenerations was important to the Master's recurring appearances, but the actual limitation was never really expanded upon, there was one line about 12 regenerations that kind of got adopted as the go-to answer and then the revival went all in on that concept with Smith.

 

[Whitney Houston On Crack]

Karren Gillan, Jenna Coleman and Catherine Tate would have all been WAYYYY the fuck better for the role.

The problem is that neither of them played Russell T Davies' poorly hidden self-insert.

 

[skykiii]

Billie Piper isn't even a good actress and she's the second worst companion. The only way they could have sunk deeper is if they brought back martha's actress to play the role.

Karren Gillan, Jenna Coleman and Catherine Tate would have all been WAYYYY the fuck better for the role. Say what you want about the writing surrounding them being bad, but acting wise they all blow billie pipe out of the water by several orders of magnitude and its not even close.

What's ironic to me is I just watched a classic Who serial called Meglos, and one of the notable things about it was it brought back Jacqueline Hill (who played the 1st Doctor's companion Barbara)... to play some religious fanatic cult leader. After that episode (according to features on the DVD) the team running the show decided they didn't really like the idea of recasting former Who actors as new characters so if an actor returns, they must be returning as their old characters.

And now New Who is just throwing that out the window.

I've long said that one of my problems with modern Who is the focus on The Doctor's love life, which was none more evidenced than by the Nine-Ten/Rose love story, followed up later by Eleven/River. I think a lot of people lost interest in Capaldi - writers included - because he wasn't fuckable enough for fangirls.

Yeah I remember this bugging me. Like I said pages back, Hartnell was your cool grandpa, but somehow the concept got degraded to "gotta be fuckable." This is pretty much why not just Doctor Who but most media was absolutely intolerable around the 2000s--it was no longer about being good, it was about attracting simps.

I can almost guarantee that if a fantasy series exists and has a decades-to-centuries older man, there will be a young and precious fangirl self-insert for him to fawn hopelessly over.

Ever read Laurie R. King's Sherlock Holmes novels?

Romana I had chemistry with Tom Baker.

Romana II had so much chemistry with Tom Baker that he literally married her.

 

[Not A Bunny]

Ever read Laurie R. King's Sherlock Holmes novels?

No. Is what I described happening in those books?

 

[skykiii]

No. Is what I described happening in those books?

Yup. Laurie invents a character named Mary Russell who is like, 20, meets Sherlock during his beekeeper phase (which was near the end of the Doyle canon) and the two eventually get married.

She's basically a 1990s feminist with very 1990s ideas who somehow exists in Sherlock Holmes' time. Her introduction IIRC goes out of her way to mention that she doesn't wear a dress like other girls, but is wearing pants (was a girl wearing pants even all that unusual back then? I'm sure I've seen vintage images of it, because sometimes dresses just aren't comfortable).

 

[Oilspill Battery]

I'd also say that age isn't some purely linear progression. A thousand year old person isn't necessarily 10x smarter and deep than a hundred year old person. And pre-RTD he wasn't written as some god whose intellect was effectively a magical deus ex machina. If an 18 year old dates a 14 year old, that's a problematic gap. If a forty-year old guy dates a thirty year old, not so much. He might be 900 years old and Amy Pond 21, but the real problem is that Amy Pond acts like she's 21. Clara had the same sort of mix of maturity and fun about her that Smith's Doctor had. It's why he's my favourite Doctor. He could go very smoothly between ancient and weary to youthful and energetic in a moment. Tenant tried the same but he would melodrama it up so much. I said earlier Troughton was my other favourite Doctor. Both he and Smith have a calm that most of the other Doctors did not (maybe Five).

I don't think the issue is biological maturity, the issue is more perspective. It doesn't really matter how inhumanely mature a human is, they are not going to have the perspective of a timelord, and that is what should create an uncrossable rift, both in power and non-biological maturity.

The doctor (as he was originally presented at least) doesn't strike me as someone who would like to spend the rest of his life in a romantic way with an intellectual inferior, even if that inferiority is the result of experience that will never be bridged (instead of maturity).

I'm not saying he thinks humans are stupid, I'm saying he thinks humans are children, (obviously in a good way though), because he also makes references to it constantly.

To clarify, I'm not implying its "problematic" or "abusive" or anything like that, I'm saying that I don't think it fits his character. If he were to fall in love with someone they would need to be able to challenge him and all the current companions are physically incapable of that. (Unless the writing forces them to obv).

 

[The Decimator]

Romana II had so much chemistry with Tom Baker that he literally married her.

For like two minutes before she married Richard Dawkins

 

[Overly Serious]

@Oilspill Battery And again we are in almost complete agreement. All the reasons you list are ones I mostly agree with. And the two exceptions I personally have to the rules, across pretty much the entire 900 episodes or whatever there are, are exceptions because they do challenge him and deal with him on an equal footing. Romana I you would probably not dispute. Clara you might because she's not a Time Lord and cannot think completely on his level. However, she is extremely smart and, his particular speciality, quick on her feet about it. I wont repeat everything I've said about why she works emotionally as well - though it could be summed up as "not Rose" quite effectively. (And Rose is a case study in everything you list about gaps in maturity, intelligence and independence). But right from the start we see that Clara does challenge him and contributes in a very genuine way. On a few occasions she spots something he misses.

Now "fall in love"? Probably not because she's only going to live for 90 years. But romantically involved? Yes, that would work. She has the detachment to make it work.

Anyway, we're going around in circles. You're not going to convince me by stating your arguments to me because I happen to already agree with them. They're how I see the Doctor's sexuality as well. But the two exceptions I think work anyway and don't violate the reasoning. Of course with Romana I they never explored that and with Clara they shoehorned in Danny (I remembered his name this time!) and mouse girl. Neither of which were remotely convincing.

For like two minutes before she married Richard Dawkins

I have never forgiven Richard Dawkins for that.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

Clara you might because she's not a Time Lord and cannot think completely on his level. However, she is extremely smart and, his particular speciality, quick on her feet about it. I wont repeat everything I've said about why she works emotionally as well - though it could be summed up as "not Rose" quite effectively. (And Rose is a case study in everything you list about gaps in maturity, intelligence and independence).

Clara has all the ingredients but needs considerably more time in the oven. Since she's immortal now if she returns 800 years later, I think she can somewhat fit the bill for a potential love intrest in the future as she would have gained her own perspective and experience to compliment the doctor, but the temporal/experience gap needs to be crossed before that happens which why I don't think it worked well in the seasons she was in. Again though, could work in the future. Most of the pieces are there.

Also, who is mouse girl?

 

[Overly Serious]

Clara has all the ingredients but needs considerably more time in the oven. Since she's immortal now if she returns 800 years later, I think she can somewhat fit the bill for a potential love intrest in the future as she would have gained her own perspective and experience to compliment the doctor, but the temporal/experience gap needs to be crossed before that happens which why I don't think it worked well in the seasons she was in. Again though, could work in the future. Most of the pieces are there.

Oh, but now Eleven became Twelve and that was the end of things. And the oven is currently being used for soufflés. No, that one is past. I'm just talking about cases where it could have worked.

Also, who is mouse girl?

The immortal viking woman. Small with a weird face. I don't remember her name but I think she was called "Me". That was when I stopped watching Who. I've seen pretty much nothing since that episode. Practically everybody I know who watched it had already dropped out around the end of the Matt Smith run.

 

[WitchOfDarkness]

The immortal viking woman. Small with a weird face. I don't remember her name but I think she was called "Me". That was when I stopped watching Who. I've seen pretty much nothing since that episode. Practically everybody I know who watched it had already dropped out around the end of the Matt Smith run.

Bill Pots's entire personality was simply "lesbian" , and it had some early cringe moments were already hard to ignore. But I think the show was only worth watching up until Capaldi left.

Moffat did have issues, but his saving grave is that he was a real fan and even at his worst he had some watchable episodes. I doubt the timeless child crap would've happened in his watch.

 

[Overly Serious]

Bill Pots's entire personality was simply "lesbian"

Which gives you some idea of what I mean when I say that River Song was less likeable than Bill Pots.

Anecdotally, I knew someone who wasn't really into Who that much though her partner was. When the new companion was announced she knew before I did because I was starting to stop watching by that point. So I asked her so who is it? Her reply: "It's great. She's a lesbian and a Person of Colour". But what is she like, I asked? "She's a lesbian and a person of colour". That's all this individual knew about her and she was clapping and squeeing about it. Because that's the way her mind works: just identity politics and labels.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

Moffat did have issues, but his saving grave is that he was a real fan and even at his worst he had some watchable episodes. I doubt the timeless child crap would've happened in his watch.

Moffat was also a hackish, but what was actually carrying the show were the doctors. Capaldi is one of the best actors to ever get the role and he's the sole reason the later seasons are as watchable as they are in spite of the writing.

Capaldi's run had good episodes (Yes even his third one I would argue), but also had a lot of serious stinkers, however it was massively carried by the fact Michelle Gomez and Capaldi were the ones headlining it.

The last seasons are unwatchable because they hit the combo of dogshit doctor + dogshit writing + dogshit concepts meaning that there's nothing to salvage it.

I'm not saying chinball's seasons would have been salvaged with capaladi and gomez, but capaldi and gomez would have elevated them.