Fallout series

Someday I'm going to do my "Bitch of the Legion" playthrough -- female, gung-ho for Caesar, melee and stealth with the Cannibal perk, pining for Vulpes Inculta.
Its pretty funny being a female legion supporter that kills everyone with their bare hands but they still won't let you fight in the arena despite the champion being a female ranger that kills legionaries with her bare hands. You do all the work for them and they try and talk shit since your a woman.

James was shown to have a HUGE naive spot: He knew the Overseer was a control freak, but he thought HE would get the blame, and you'd generally get off when it was clear you didn't know shit.

Unfortunately, his mis-estimation nearly got you killed.

It's a pattern, really. He knew Stanislaus Braun was a genius and he certainly had to notice something fucked up before he entered the simulation pod, he just underestimated just how bad it would be.

Dr. Lee even notes James is a big picture guy who tends to not think about the little yet important details too much.
He also got Jonas killed. Given his track record its surprising he didn't join forces with the Enclave for protection and resources to finish the project.
 
Replaying New Vegas with a bunch of mods that re balance the game somewhat and restore some cut content.

Also found a mod that makes it so that Charisma and companions work a bit like Fallout 2 where you can have up to five companions depending on how high your Charisma is. The companions get nerfed a bit to compensate for this of course.

Not sure if it's because I haven't tagged Survival, because of the mods, or because I haven't played in years, but I seem to get thirsty and hungry much more often. And it's harder to have a constant supply of water on hand.

That will probably even out once I get to Vegas though.
 
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So I've been thinking a lot about Fallout today and open-world games in general and I had some interesting thoughts to put on paper and there are no Fallout threads on /v/ right now so here will have to do.

A lot of people on KF and /v/ love NV while hating/tolerating 3 and 4, which is in contrast to like millions of people who love those games because they just wanna shoot things in the face. And honestly, I've always wondered why that is. For me personally at least, it's not the writing - I love good writing in my games but I loved BotW too and that game has dick writing. There's like one entire character in it that goes through an arc. It's not the combat because NV's combat is just barely acceptable (in contrast to 3 which has just awful, seriously why does every gun feel like I'm firing nerf darts out of my dick). The story is very flexible and there's a lot of different ways to engage with the world so you can actually roleplay unlike 3 and 4, which is great, but there are plenty of RPGs out there that have that as well that didn't grab my attention as much as NV did. I think I finally figured it out though - it's the structure.

I'm a 100% certain that 3 and 4 bore me to tears is because they simply don't have a structure. Once the tutorial's over the game essentially tells you "lol do what you want and go make your own fun", which I don't really mind, but there needs to be something in place to hold me over. The old GTA games made you unlock more places as you went through the story which made every new location feel exciting and actually makes you care about the world, in contrast to GTAV (don't @ me). In BotW the game has a very loose structure once you leave the Great Plateau but you have a goal in mind and everything you can do is related to that goal. You beat shrines and dungeons and find weapons and Korok Seeds and whatever to get more powerful so you can defeat Ganon. Fallout 3 and 4 just don't have anything like that. They both have plots that consist of optional breadcrumbs to find that barely have anything to do with the actual gameplay, and I can only take so much aimless wandering around shooting at zombies and orcs before I get sick of it.

In contrast, NV has a very well set-up structure. You wake up in Goodsprings, which is one of the best tutorial stages in any game I've ever played. It's got so much stuff to do - you can hack computers, open locks, bluff, barter, steal, use workbenches, dick around with recipes, it rewards pretty much every kind of character you can build and it's very fun as a result. In that sense it's pretty much a microscopic version of the game world at large in the way it introduces you to all of NV's mechanics, but I nearly forgot about the central conflict in Goodsprings and the most important mechanic of all - the factions, namely the fight between the factions of Goodsprings and the Powder Gangers. It's admittedly one of the less interesting conflicts in the game - it's rather simple and black and white compared to some of the more complex and morally grey situations the game puts you through later - but there are still multiple ways of dealing with the situation depending on what kind of character you're playing and, as black and white as the conflict is, you can still join the Powder Gangers if you want to, and this choice actually has its benefits - it's not just some arbitrary evil choice like the kind that FO3 throws at you all the time.

Now NV is pretty much designed to make you interested in Vegas - the game's named after Vegas, Vegas can be seen from pretty much every point at the map and it shines like a beacon at night which is already enough to get players interested in getting there, so of course pretty much every character in Goodsprings warns you not to make a headline for it because the direct road to NV is dangerous. I assume most players are like myself and ignored the fuck out of that warning and then proceeded to get their asses kicked by a bunch of fucking bullshit-ass bees. At that point it might feel like you're being forced to head south to get to NV proper, which seems like a weird way to design an open-world game - and I suppose it is unconventtial - but this structure really benefits the game. As you head south, east and north again to Vegas you find yourself in locations where you slowly start learning more about the Mojave Wasteland, the characters and factions in it and the conflicts they face at a very steady and natural pace. The game does this so well that at the end where you're forced to make decisions that affect the entire Wasteland, it feels completely natural, like this is what your whole journey's been building up to all this time. It's incredibly climatic and a shitload more satisfying than being handed Power Armor and a minigun right at the beginning of the game.

That said, if you're skilled and smart enough, you can still head for Vegas right away if you wish. The game's open-world after all, so even if it has a very heavily suggested route for you to take, it's all still optional. NV was the first Fallout game I've ever played and heading for Vegas right away is what I did on my first playthrough, and I fell in love with the game right there when I actually managed to get to Vegas in the first hour of the game. It's the best of both worlds - there's a clear and well defined structure so you feel like you have a goal in mind and aren't just endlessly wandering around, but if you want to you can skip the route the game wants you to take while still having that same goal in mind. FO1 and 2 had similar structures, and those games were very well-designed, but NV does it better, I think. It's a lot more clever with engaging you into the world than 1 and 2 meaning you get pulled into the game that much faster.

Now New Vegas isn't flawless, of course - it's still buggy, Caesar's Legion is so much wasted potential and the combat, again, is just barely acceptable. But they really nailed the structure and the great story, roleplaying and writing on top of it make it a really fun and endlessly replayable game. Fuck I love NV.

(Going off memory, I haven't played any Fallout game in years)

The west is a land full of nuance and various shades of grey and even various shades of black. The East is a land of clear good and clear evil.

However, I don't think this is what makes the older games better. Fallout 2 is my 2nd favorite Fallout game and the writers clearly wrote some people as good guys and some as bad guys. What makes these non-Bethesda games better is that everything is thought out and developed.

I consider the quests around Tenpenny tower in Fallout 3 to be some of the best of Bethesda's quests but let me compare these quests to those of surrounding Vault City in Fallout 2. These are both stories about Xenophobia being bad but in my opinion one story is clearly better.

First lets start with some basic questions,
What do these people eat? How do they interact with other cities? What are their motivations and where do these motivations originate?

Vault city trades medical technology with the wastes to get food and raw materials and produces a little food through vault technology. They are motivated by the desire to maintain their current utopian standard of living and so keep "servants" (slaves) and have developed a superiority complex because of their long isolation and the fucked up nature of the wasteland outside of their utopia. They are the only well educated people in California and are fiercely proud and independent and so don't wish to join the rising New California Republic.

Tenpenny tower was founded by a rich guy from the UK somehow and the community is populated by "racist" assholes he found somewhere. The people of Tenpenny tower hate Ghouls and wastelanders because they hate ghouls and wastelanders. Tenpenny wants to blowup the town of Megaton because he finds it delightful or something. How the fuck do they eat? What do they trade? I dunno. (Apparently this content was made when Bethesda was still making a 10 years after the apocalypse game.)

In Vault city there are two factions. The xenophobic faction which desires to remain free of the NCR lead by the cities prideful workaholic leader, First Citizen Joanne Lynette and a progressive faction under Councillor McClure. Vault city is an elitist place that keeps slaves but it also a society that prides itself upon being a free society that functions as a meritocracy as evidenced by its written history and the opportunity to take a (somewhat impossible) citizenship test. The progressive faction is rooted in these ideals and is relatively small because most of the highly educated population are fearful of outsiders (due to the rampant brutal slavery and ooga booga tribals) and the obvious benefits of having privileges and servants slaves.

In Tenpenny there is 3 factions. The first faction is Tenpenny and his random assortment of rich bigots . The second is a woman named SomeBitch who is a feel good rich liberal that hates racism. There is a third faction of ghouls living in the basement. You can sneak them in or bring the liberal faction to prominence (kill Tenpenny or force him to leave) so that they're freely let in. Regardless, the Ghouls kill everybody or are killed themselves depending on which line you follow. An oddly morally grey questline which is pretty great by Bethesda standards.


I think Tenpenny is some of the best Bethesda's got and it still doesn't hold up to the depth, nuance and worldbuilding of the non-Bethesda games. You are not supposed to like Tenpenny because he is an insane "racist". You are not supposed to like Lynette because she is the natural product of a society that developed around isolating itself from and fearing the outside world. Both reveal themselves to be genocidal but Lynette is driven to genocide by a reason that is actually interesting, a desire to protect her people. You are supposed to like SomeBitch because she is not insane. You are supposed to like McClure because he tries to hold his country to the noble ideals that his society pretends to stand for. Vault City is not even the best Fallout 2 has to offer.

_____

However, onto what you said. The older games don't have fuckall for structure. You do a basic tutorial in the second game through some tribal trials and get directed to a town but you can go anywhere. Heck, I don't think the first game had any tutorial.
 
(Going off memory, I haven't played any Fallout game in years)

The west is a land full of nuance and various shades of grey and even various shades of black. The East is a land of clear good and clear evil.

However, I don't think this is what makes the older games better. Fallout 2 is my 2nd favorite Fallout game and the writers clearly wrote some people as good guys and some as bad guys. What makes these non-Bethesda games better is that everything is thought out and developed.

I consider the quests around Tenpenny tower in Fallout 3 to be some of the best of Bethesda's quests but let me compare these quests to those of surrounding Vault City in Fallout 2. These are both stories about Xenophobia being bad but in my opinion one story is clearly better.

First lets start with some basic questions,
What do these people eat? How do they interact with other cities? What are their motivations and where do these motivations originate?

Vault city trades medical technology with the wastes to get food and raw materials and produces a little food through vault technology. They are motivated by the desire to maintain their current utopian standard of living and so keep "servants" (slaves) and have developed a superiority complex because of their long isolation and the fucked up nature of the wasteland outside of their utopia. They are the only well educated people in California and are fiercely proud and independent and so don't wish to join the rising New California Republic.

Tenpenny tower was founded by a rich guy from the UK somehow and the community is populated by "racist" assholes he found somewhere. The people of Tenpenny tower hate Ghouls and wastelanders because they hate ghouls and wastelanders. Tenpenny wants to blowup the town of Megaton because he finds it delightful or something. How the fuck do they eat? What do they trade? I dunno. (Apparently this content was made when Bethesda was still making a 10 years after the apocalypse game.)

In Vault city there are two factions. The xenophobic faction which desires to remain free of the NCR lead by the cities prideful workaholic leader, First Citizen Joanne Lynette and a progressive faction under Councillor McClure. Vault city is an elitist place that keeps slaves but it also a society that prides itself upon being a free society that functions as a meritocracy as evidenced by its written history and the opportunity to take a (somewhat impossible) citizenship test. The progressive faction is rooted in these ideals and is relatively small because most of the highly educated population are fearful of outsiders (due to the rampant brutal slavery and ooga booga tribals) and the obvious benefits of having privileges and servants slaves.

In Tenpenny there is 3 factions. The first faction is Tenpenny and his random assortment of rich bigots . The second is a woman named SomeBitch who is a feel good rich liberal that hates racism. There is a third faction of ghouls living in the basement. You can sneak them in or bring the liberal faction to prominence (kill Tenpenny or force him to leave) so that they're freely let in. Regardless, the Ghouls kill everybody or are killed themselves depending on which line you follow. An oddly morally grey questline which is pretty great by Bethesda standards.


I think Tenpenny is some of the best Bethesda's got and it still doesn't hold up to the depth, nuance and worldbuilding of the non-Bethesda games. You are not supposed to like Tenpenny because he is an insane "racist". You are not supposed to like Lynette because she is the natural product of a society that developed around isolating itself from and fearing the outside world. Both reveal themselves to be genocidal but Lynette is driven to genocide by a reason that is actually interesting, a desire to protect her people. You are supposed to like SomeBitch because she is not insane. You are supposed to like McClure because he tries to hold his country to the noble ideals that his society pretends to stand for. Vault City is not even the best Fallout 2 has to offer.

_____

However, onto what you said. The older games don't have fuckall for structure. You do a basic tutorial in the second game through some tribal trials and get directed to a town but you can go anywhere. Heck, I don't think the first game had any tutorial.
Its been a while for me too but I believe Tenpenny himself is fine with letting the ghouls in he just wants the residents to be on board too since they pay him money. On the other side you have Roy willing to slaughter everyone in the tower just to get in and if he gets in peacefully still kills everyone including known ghoul advocate Herbert "Daring" Dashwood. Roy will also blow up Megaton should the means present itself. Somehow Roy still has good karma while Tenpenny is very evil.
 
Its been a while for me too but I believe Tenpenny himself is fine with letting the ghouls in he just wants the residents to be on board too since they pay him money. On the other side you have Roy willing to slaughter everyone in the tower just to get in and if he gets in peacefully still kills everyone including known ghoul advocate Herbert "Daring" Dashwood. Roy will also blow up Megaton should the means present itself. Somehow Roy still has good karma while Tenpenny is very evil.

That's likely due more to wooden programming than purposeful developer fuckup.

Roy is considered "good" because he does have legit grievances and Tenpenny is a coldblooded dick when you first meet them.

The issue is that at a certain point, when Roy slaughters everyone in Tenpenny Tower, the game is supposed to script him as evil so shooting his ass incurs no karma penalty (Three Dog will express disgust with Roy's actions when this trigger should activate). The quest is designed to make you feel shitty either way because you either murdered a bunch of ghouls who weren't assholes (Roy excepted) or you were their advocate and Roy took that as a chance for revenge anyway. however, thanks to the programming

While that logic works fine, Roy blowing up Megaton lacks the script trigger to denote him being evil because the game has the evil act in question done through an intermediary, and YOU have to be the one to do the deed in the end.

The overall point is that Roy is denoted as a "good" character in terms of perception of his plight, but he's actually just as evil if not worse than those that put him in it, and the penalty you pay for offing his ass is due to this wooden inability to change character karma via scripted triggers very well.

Basically, while the quest is supposed to have a disappointing moral ending regardless of choice, it's still idiotic because it would make more sense to have Roy's karma be Very Evil by default, but doing so would invalidate the crappy ending of helping Roy because offing his ass would offset any karma hit you took.

tl;dr; The quest makes sense on the face of it, but the crappy game mechanics still make you suffer even if you do put a bullet in Roy in the end, who does actually deserve it by that point.
 
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Guess I misrembered some details but It was the best quest I could think of. Not really fair to make such an argument with an obviously dogshit quest bad.

However, I checked and it was Tenpenny and not Roy that nuked "that eyesore". The nuke questline would probably work as a better comparison but its not even trying to be nuanced or various shades of grey.
 
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Guess I misrembered some details but It was the best quest I could think of. Not really fair to make such an argument with an obviously dogshit quest bad.

However, I checked and it was Tenpenny and not Roy that nuked "that eyesore".

Roy considers Burke (who he gets to work for him should he be alive and Tenpenny's dead) not so bad because he want to "nuke that smoothskin shithole". As he's now Burke's boss, should the player help Burke nuke Megaton, you are ultimately following Roy's wishes in the end, just under the employ of Burke but with Roy's explicit approval.

Honestly, the karma system is fucked up, and the only way I can stomach doing that quest is to help Roy but then shoot him in the back once I'm done and before he can do the massacre, then negate the karma hit by handing over water to beggars and donating to the Church in Rivet City until everyone likes me again.
 
However, onto what you said. The older games don't have fuckall for structure. You do a basic tutorial in the second game through some tribal trials and get directed to a town but you can go anywhere. Heck, I don't think the first game had any tutorial.
They have structures, it's just that they're not immediately obvious. In the first Fallout you need to get a water chip and the Overseer redirects you to a nearby vault, Vault 15, that might contain one. You head there and find the town of Shady Sands on your way. Now either you'll let your normal human curiosity overtake you and check it out or you head to the vault anyway, getting stuck at a dead-end and making the trek back to Shady Sands. Shady Sands is where you can learn about companions, the trade system, quests, standard stuff, but it's also where you learn the location of Junktown so you head there and do stuff until you learn about the Hub, etc.
 
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Have any of you guys heard of the original Wasteland game for MS-DOS? Interplay basically said that Fallout is a spiritual successor to it. In other words, I should go back to playing Fallout 1+2.
 
Have any of you guys heard of the original Wasteland game for MS-DOS? Interplay basically said that Fallout is a spiritual successor to it. In other words, I should go back to playing Fallout 1+2.

Heard of it? Dog, I grew up on it.

"HELL RAZOR rips a clip and hits a Bunny for 47 points of damage, reducing it to an undertaker's nightmare."

There are references to it in Fallout 3, New Vegas, and especially Old World Blues -- the health item "Thin Red Paste" is a reference to the hilarious combat messages; the Proton Ax is a weapon taken directly from the later parts of the game.
 
Have any of you guys heard of the original Wasteland game for MS-DOS? Interplay basically said that Fallout is a spiritual successor to it. In other words, I should go back to playing Fallout 1+2.
I never played the first one but I did play the new one. I enjoyed Wasteland 2, I liked how your skills came into play and there was generally multiple solutions to problems.

In terms of skills I'll just use a locked door as an example. In Fallout you either pick the lock or hack a terminal if there is one connected. In Wasteland 2 you first want to check if there are any signs of an alarm around then disable the alarm then disarm any explosive booby traps connected to the door and then try picking it. If your character critically fails and jams the lock then you want to repair the lock to try again. If that fails you can try to just kick it down and hope its soft enough and your character doesn't break their foot on it. Failing all that you can try and blow it open with a grenade or something.
 
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I never played the first one but I did play the new one. I enjoyed Wasteland 2, I liked how your skills came into play and there was generally multiple solutions to problems.

In terms of skills I'll just use a locked door as an example. In Fallout you either pick the lock or hack a terminal if there is one connected. In Wasteland 2 you first want to check if there are any signs of an alarm around then disable the alarm then disarm any explosive booby traps connected to the door and then try picking it. If your character critically fails and jams the lock then you want to repair the lock to try again. If that fails you can try to just kick it down and hope its soft enough and your character doesn't break their foot on it. Failing all that you can try and blow it open with a grenade or something.

I second this Wasteland 2 is pretty fucking good about giving you skill checks and letting you really play a character.

Also when are we getting an Mdickie fallout style game that somehow manages to be amazing?
 
I know this is a fo3 joke but it actually takes place in Colorado, where its completely frozen
Smh, Bethsoft should give up partial ownership of Fallout and then there could be the stupidly awesome title of WASTELAND'S FALLOUT.

I wonder how compatible the lore is.
 
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