Fallout series

[Creep3r]

Honestly, this whole experience now makes me wonder if that Elder Scrolls Beyond Skyrim mod project some shits have been working for 10 years will be just as embarrassing.

Regardless, I just hope that Fallout Miami mod doesn't turn out like this.

This interview is such a fucking shitshow. Sneed's Feed and Seed got brought up four separate times and the lead dev had to check if there's an actual Sneed quest in the mod. The interviewer is constantly reading outright insults towards the lead dev. The USS Liberty got mentioned.
"could you tell me about the JQ questline, particularly the merchant?"
The lead dev was asked if they were going to report the pedo dev to the authorities, he hesitates, so the interviewer has to after some silence interject that obviously they're going to report this to the proper authorities.
View attachment 1876311

"Thirty years from now when you're sitting around your feed and seed barrels with your interactive cyber waifu bodypillow on your knee, and she asks you, "What did you do in the great Battle of the Frontier?" -- you won't have to say, "Well, I fucked and sucked snakes in Oregon." - General George Sneed Patton (Circa 2021).

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Why is the Enclave so popular? They were a neat idea in FO2 but not that well executed and came across too much like cartoonish villains. In FO3 they were worse than cartoon villains. Saturday morning cartoons have better and more consistent writing. And in NV they were barely present.

I really don't get the obsession with the Enclave.
If you just want assholes in power armors, the FO4 route of making BoS fill that role was so much better than bringing the Enclave back after being destroyed twice.

It's the same reason why the Empire from Star Wars is popular. They have all the nice tools, they've got no reservations when it comes to blowing you up for looking at them funny, and they're patriotic as hell. Not to mention their guys have all the best lines. From Sgt. Dornan and Frank Horrigan in Fallout 2, to John Henry Eden and Arcade Gannon in the Bethesda Fallouts, there's no shortage of great Enclave lines from these characters, not to mention the chance to cosplay as 1950s America refusing to die tickles the fancy of many roleplayers.

That, and the FO4 Brotherhood is just dumb. Really, really, really dumb. "HEY GANG, LET'S ABANDON OUR PREVIOUSLY WELL-LIKED POSITION OF CHARITY TOWARDS OTHERS AND ADAPT A PUBLIC POSITION TOWARDS SYNTHS THAT WOULD ENSURE TWO OUT OF THREE OF THE COMMONWEALTH'S FACTIONS (the Institute and the Railroad) WILL WANT US DEAD! NOT JUST THAT, BUT LET'S ALSO PUT ALL OUR ASSETS ON A FLOATING AIRSHIP THAT CAN EASILY GET BLOWN OUT OF THE SKY BY SOME RAIDER WITH A JET ADDICTION!" At least the Enclave in FO2 was hiding out in some remote Oil Rig, far from prying eyes, while the Enclave in FO3 had a bunker in Raven Rock and a fortified position in Adams Air Force Base as their HQ. Not only that, but the Enclave in Fallout 2 kept tight-lipped about their plans (you don't learn about it until you get to the Poseidon Oil Rig) while the Enclave in Fallout 3 used propaganda spewed through the radio to get people to think they're the good guys. Compared to that, the FO4 Brotherhood is practically brainless.

That, and the FO4 Brotherhood doesn't have anywhere near the cool factor or the best gear as the Enclave. The fact that X-01 armor still escapes their grasp (they have T-60s, nowhere near as good as Enclave power armors like the X-01 or the Mark II Powered Combat Armors that the Enclave guys used) means you're fighting with guys who only have armor that they dusted off and stole from somewhere else instead of making newer, better models. To quote Jaime Lannister from Game of Thrones:

"They're not good at anything. They're bitter, angry little people. All they know how to do is steal things they can't build or grow themselves."

That's nowhere near as cool as fighting for or against guys who have A) the most up-to-date power armors around and B) guys who have plasma weapons like plasma rifles and grenades. Lasers are nowhere near that strong, and the Brotherhood at most is just coming up to fight you with outdated tech, tech that was obsolete since Fallout 2. Sure, for those who hate the Brotherhood like myself, it's fun to pretend that my Minutemen are the Enclave reborn while I pound the shit out of the BoS, but with no official Enclave presence, something is just missing from the game. Ever since Fallout 2, the mainline games always had an Enclave presence. Fallout 3 and FNV had them. So why not Fallout 4? And why can't we join them in Fallout Frontier? The fans have been demanding it, and there's no shortage of "join the Enclave" mods to show how people have been desiring this for quite some time.

Just to put into perspective how much better Enclave tech is, The Remnants Power Armor you get in New Vegas is rusted to hell, the eye lens are dirty and cracked, and its scratched beyond measure, looking like it tumbled down a mountain for three days... And it still has the bar-none highest armor rating on par with Joshua Grahams natural Damage Threshold of 50.

Nothing short of high explosives or an NCR rangers anti material rifle is getting through it without serious damage drop off. And that's before you stack on chems or perks.

(Hell, walking up to an enclave soldier while youre wearing a normal power armor suit has them ask if you dug it out of a musuem.)@

Is it any wonder people want to play as them when they have some of the most compelling dialogue and coolest toys?

Exactly. The best toys. The Brotherhood guys polish and shine their armors daily, and it's still shit compared to a rusty, beaten-up suit of Enclave Remnants' Power Armor.

To add to that, my Courier stacks chems and perks over that. She practically cheeses through enemies like they're nothing, while blaring Enclave Radio music through her Pip-Boy as she slaughters whole platoons of anything from Brotherhood Paladins to Legion shocktroops.

Combine that with the kind of "hoo-rah!" American propaganda that the Enclave guys blare through the radios, and plasma rifles/grenades added with miniguns and flamethrowers, and you get the Reeses' Peanut Butter and Chocolate cups of the Fallout universe. That's why they were a worthy foe in Fallout 3, the best foe I could ask for, and in FNV, it was fun RP'ing as an Enclave Courier who's either working with House or upstaging him so she could turn New Vegas into an Enclave stronghold and begin America's rebuilding from there.

 

[Dark Edea]

It's the same reason why the Empire from Star Wars is popular. They have all the nice tools, they've got no reservations when it comes to blowing you up for looking at them funny, and they're patriotic as hell. Not to mention their guys have all the best lines. From Sgt. Dornan and Frank Horrigan in Fallout 2, to John Henry Eden and Arcade Gannon in the Bethesda Fallouts, there's no shortage of great Enclave lines from these characters, not to mention the chance to cosplay as 1950s America refusing to die tickles the fancy of many roleplayers.

That, and the FO4 Brotherhood is just dumb. Really, really, really dumb. "HEY GANG, LET'S ABANDON OUR PREVIOUSLY WELL-LIKED POSITION OF CHARITY TOWARDS OTHERS AND ADAPT A PUBLIC POSITION TOWARDS SYNTHS THAT WOULD ENSURE TWO OUT OF THREE OF THE COMMONWEALTH'S FACTIONS (the Institute and the Railroad) WILL WANT US DEAD! NOT JUST THAT, BUT LET'S ALSO PUT ALL OUR ASSETS ON A FLOATING AIRSHIP THAT CAN EASILY GET BLOWN OUT OF THE SKY BY SOME RAIDER WITH A JET ADDICTION!" At least the Enclave in FO2 was hiding out in some remote Oil Rig, far from prying eyes, while the Enclave in FO3 had a bunker in Raven Rock and a fortified position in Adams Air Force Base as their HQ. Not only that, but the Enclave in Fallout 2 kept tight-lipped about their plans (you don't learn about it until you get to the Poseidon Oil Rig) while the Enclave in Fallout 3 used propaganda spewed through the radio to get people to think they're the good guys. Compared to that, the FO4 Brotherhood is practically brainless.

That, and the FO4 Brotherhood doesn't have anywhere near the cool factor or the best gear as the Enclave. The fact that X-01 armor still escapes their grasp (they have T-60s, nowhere near as good as Enclave power armors like the X-01 or the Mark II Powered Combat Armors that the Enclave guys used) means you're fighting with guys who only have armor that they dusted off and stole from somewhere else instead of making newer, better models. To quote Jaime Lannister from Game of Thrones:

"They're not good at anything. They're bitter, angry little people. All they know how to do is steal things they can't build or grow themselves."

No real reason to go into that much detail. Fallout 4 was a shit sandwich through and through.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

No real reason to go into that much detail. Fallout 4 was a shit sandwich through and through.

Well, I really wanted to lay in why the Enclave was the best faction in Fallout, at least in my opinion.

-Most Super Mutants have the brain of a rock, and outside of the Master and some lieutenants, aren't that fun to fight when compared to the Enclave.

-The Brotherhood of Steel is basically what happens when you mix Jawas with Imperium Space Marines. They'd be cooler if they weren't coming at me with centuries-old power armor that was obsolete by the time of the second game.

-Playing for or against the Enclave is always fun. When you play for them, you can RP as a patriotic American wishing to rebuild your home, while fighting against them gives you one hell of a fight against guys whose power armor and weapons are top of the line. Which is why FNV and Fallouts 2 and 3 are still the best in my opinion.

-Enclave characters are just more fun. John Henry Eden, Frank Horrigan, Sgt. Dornan, and Arcade Gannon are some of the characters with the best quotes in the games.

-Enclave propaganda really gets the blood pumping for you to restore America to her rightful place in the world. Which is why I usually use USB drives so I can play Enclave Radio broadcasts whenever I roleplay as an Enclave officer in New Vegas.

 

[byuu]

It's the same reason why the Empire from Star Wars is popular.

That's actually my biggest problem with Star Wars.
They always have to keep bringing back the same shit every time.
Liked how the Empire's super weapon got destroyed? Here is it again and again and again.

I hate to see Fallout become like that.

That, and the FO4 Brotherhood is just dumb. Really, really, really dumb. "HEY GANG, LET'S ABANDON OUR PREVIOUSLY WELL-LIKED POSITION OF CHARITY TOWARDS OTHERS AND ADAPT A PUBLIC POSITION TOWARDS SYNTHS THAT WOULD ENSURE TWO OUT OF THREE OF THE COMMONWEALTH'S FACTIONS (the Institute and the Railroad) WILL WANT US DEAD! NOT JUST THAT, BUT LET'S ALSO PUT ALL OUR ASSETS ON A FLOATING AIRSHIP THAT CAN EASILY GET BLOWN OUT OF THE SKY BY SOME RAIDER WITH A JET ADDICTION!"

Well, it is a Bethesda game. The FO3 BoS sacrificed tons of troops and valuable scarce equipment to help people who eat moldy packs of sugar bombs and have nothing to offer. The FO3 Enclave fought against the people to the death to help them have clean water.
The Airship has that cool factor you were talking about. And I liked the little nod to Tactics.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

That's actually my biggest problem with Star Wars.
They always have to keep bringing back the same shit every time.
Liked how the Empire's super weapon got destroyed? Here is it again and again and again.

I hate to see Fallout become like that.


Well, it is a Bethesda game. The FO3 BoS sacrificed tons of troops and valuable scarce equipment to help people who eat moldy packs of sugar bombs and have nothing to offer. The FO3 Enclave fought against the people to the death to help them have clean water.
The Airship has that cool factor you were talking about. And I liked the little nod to Tactics.

The fans think otherwise. They keep bringing back the Empire because the Empire's fun to fight.

That, and in games like Dark Forces, Jedi Outcast, and Jedi Academy, they always come up with new weapons like Dark Jedi shocktroops or power-armored space marines (Hazard Troopers), so they can keep things fresh by being the one foe that can get away with inventing new enemies on the fly.

Plus, the Brotherhood of Steel dates all the way back to Fallout 1, so that's even more rehashed than the Enclave considering that they've been there SINCE THE FIRST FUCKING GAME.

The Fallout 3 BoS actually acted like chivalrous knights in the Dark Ages. And people loved them well enough to join them and keep them well-stocked with recruits, leading to them defeating the Enclave and winning control of the Capital Wasteland. The Fallout 4 Brotherhood was stupid enough to adapt a stance on Synths that would ensure at least two well-armed groups (the Institute and the Railroad) would want them dead. Also, the airship isn't cool. It's basically a giant bull's-eye on their asses. All the Minutemen/Railroad/Institute needs to do is to destroy that airship to destroy them, meanwhile the Enclave has fortified bases on the Poseidon Oil Rig, Raven Rock, and the Adams Air Force Base which is far more logical. Not to mention the newer armors are far cooler than the old outdated armor suits the BoS soldiers wear in battle.

 

[byuu]

The fans think otherwise. They keep bringing back the Empire because the Empire's fun to fight.

Because the fans are autistic retards.
Wookieepedia is a crime against humanity.

Plus, the Brotherhood of Steel dates all the way back to Fallout 1, so that's even more rehashed than the Enclave since they've been there SINCE THE FIRST FUCKING GAME.

And they were different in every game, barely present in 2, and close to extinction in NV. I didn't have a problem with the Remnants in NV either.

But I do kinda agree. I think it was a mistake to have the BoS in Fallout 3. But since they already put them in the east coast for no reason, I appreciated that they did something more interesting with them in FO4. I hold Bethesda to a low standard and I'm grateful for small favours.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Because the fans are autistic retards.
Wookieepedia is a crime against humanity.


And they were different in every game, barely present in 2, and close to extinction in NV. I didn't have a problem with the Remnants in NV either.

But I do kinda agree. I think it was a mistake to have the BoS in Fallout 3. But since they already put them in the east coast for no reason, I appreciated that they did something more interesting with them in FO4. I hold Bethesda to a low standard and I'm grateful for small favours.

So, the people who enjoy the Jedi Knight games are autistic retards? They were all against Imperial Remnants post-ROTJ.

Yeah, but having the Brotherhood be a main faction again is just as much re-hashing as the Enclave was in FO3.

No, the right approach was FNV's approach. Have all the old factions (Enclave, Super Mutants, BoS) and have the new factions alongside them (the more powerful version of the NCR, New Vegas, and Caesar's Legion). That way, you don't miss out on any factions, and you can sign on with old or new factions to your heart's desire.

 

[robobobo]

Just as a side thing, I'm not seeing where the Enclave is a bad faction. They just take what they want through force, but that's basically every faction. The claims of 'racism' seem to boil down to them not being cool with supermutants, and well, that's not really an unreasonable position. I wouldn't want a bunch of half-naked seven foot tall green bald dudes with chainguns running rampant either. There are some pretty cool ghouls around, granted, but for every intelligent ghoul there seem to be several dozen feral ghouls who want to eat your eyeballs, so again, wanting them gone seems like a perfectly prudent stance in a post-apocalyptic survival scenario.

 

[byuu]

the people who enjoy the Jedi Knight games are autistic retards?

I love the Jedi Knight games. But I don't play them for the story.

Yeah, but having the Brotherhood be a main faction again is just as much re-hashing as the Enclave was in FO3.

No, not really because they changed.
It's not re-hashing Shady Sands to have the NCR in NV. Because it grew to something radically different.

No, the right approach was FNV's approach. Have all the old factions (Enclave, Super Mutants, BoS) and have the new factions alongside them (the more powerful version of the NCR, New Vegas, and Caesar's Legion).

Isn't that what FO4 did?
Don't get me wrong. I don't think FO4 was a good game. But the BoS was at least kinda fun and a step-up from the bland white knights they were in 3. Unlike the Minutemen or the Institute.

If you have an interesting idea for the Enclave, you could bring them back too. But they shouldn't be brought back just to be brought back.
And I never heard any interesting idea from the people demanding more Enclave.
They want the same old cartoon villains in badass armor that they've always been. Fuck that.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I love the Jedi Knight games. But I don't play them for the story.


No, not really because they changed.
It's not re-hashing Shady Sands to have the NCR in NV. Because it grew to something radically different.


Isn't that what FO4 did?
Don't get me wrong. I don't think FO4 was a good game. But the BoS was at least kinda fun and a step-up from the bland white knights they were in 3. Unlike the Minutemen or the Institute.

If you have an interesting idea for the Enclave, you could bring them back too. But they shouldn't be brought back just to be brought back.
And I never heard any interesting idea from the people demanding more Enclave.
They want the same old cartoon villains in badass armor that they've always been. Fuck that.

But the Jedi Knight games rehash the Empire. Even more so than FO3 rehashes the Enclave.

So? Just have the Enclave go through changes. Heck, the Enclave in FO3 is not the same as the one in FO2.

Not really. The Fallout 4 BoS was kinda stupid. It's like they lost all the pragmatic bones in their body and went on a damn fool idealistic crusade against synths. Unlike the FO1 and 2 Brotherhood, they don't conserve their strength by hiding. Unlike the FO3 Brotherhood, they don't gain support through charity. They're just assholes who came to your town to gun down synths, and they all came in on an airship that you can shoot down if you hate their guts. The only people happy with that are Brotherhood haters like myself so I can RP the Minutemen as the Enclave Reborn while we blow the Prydwen out of the sky.

As the mods have already shown, you can have a reformed Enclave faction that genuinely wants to rebuild America without all the hatred for irradiated people. That's what the fans want when you see the mods they have for the Enclave, not the cartoon villains back in FO2, but the more nuanced Enclave like in FNV, only bigger. If you think the fans just want the same evil old Enclave, then you need to take a second look at these Enclave fanboys.

So? At least even the evil old Enclave would be more fun to shoot at than Brotherhood punks with outdated gear and armor that was made obsolete ALL THE WAY BACK in Fallout 2.

Just as a side thing, I'm not seeing where the Enclave is a bad faction. They just take what they want through force, but that's basically every faction. The claims of 'racism' seem to boil down to them not being cool with supermutants, and well, that's not really an unreasonable position. I wouldn't want a bunch of half-naked seven foot tall green bald dudes with chainguns running rampant either. There are some pretty cool ghouls around, granted, but for every intelligent ghoul there seem to be several dozen feral ghouls who want to eat your eyeballs, so again, wanting them gone seems like a perfectly prudent stance in a post-apocalyptic survival scenario.

That, and the whole "rebuild America" platform that the Enclave was running on isn't really that unrealistic. When Rome fell, there were no shortage of Greek and German monarchs trying to rebuild the old Empire, down to the point where they tried to reconstruct the Western Roman Empire multiple times. Under Emperor Justinian, Byzantium took Italy and North Africa for a while, and later on, the Germans worked with the Pope to crown one of their own as the new Roman Emperor in the West. Even as early as before Justinian, Clovis, the king of the Franks, worked with Roman remnants in the East to attack other Barbarian tribes and was made into an honorary Roman Consul by Emperor Anastasius I of Constantinople. So if old Roman remnants tried to rebuild their Empire, why shouldn't remnants of American government try to rebuild their country? It makes far more sense to rebuild the nation than to run around cosplaying as feudal knights with power armor or as Roman Legions wearing football gear.

 

[Creep3r]

Just as a side thing, I'm not seeing where the Enclave is a bad faction. They just take what they want through force, but that's basically every faction. The claims of 'racism' seem to boil down to them not being cool with supermutants, and well, that's not really an unreasonable position. I wouldn't want a bunch of half-naked seven foot tall green bald dudes with chainguns running rampant either. There are some pretty cool ghouls around, granted, but for every intelligent ghoul there seem to be several dozen feral ghouls who want to eat your eyeballs, so again, wanting them gone seems like a perfectly prudent stance in a post-apocalyptic survival scenario.

Not to mention that even the good ghouls could go feral when you least expect it for whatever reason.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Not to mention that even the good ghouls could go feral when you least expect for whatever reason.

"Good" ghouls can be ticking time bombs. Some might go feral before you notice it, so I can see someone wanting them all dead before that happens. The only alternative is to create a treatment for that, but I never saw any of the factions in Fallout trying to come up with a treatment, not even the Think Tank or the Institute.

 

[Creep3r]

but I never saw any of the factions in Fallout trying to come up with a treatment, not even the Think Tank or the Institute.

If Van Buren hadn't been cancelled we would've gotten a new faction of genetically modified "natural born" ghouls immune to feralization and with more stable genetics.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

If Van Buren hadn't been cancelled we would've gotten a new faction of genetically modified "natural born" ghouls immune to feralization and with more stable genetics.

I suppose. Or if it were me, I'd just add that the Think Tank and the Institute are experimenting with cures for the Feral state of Ghouls.

 

[byuu]

But the Jedi Knight games rehash the Empire. Even more so than FO3 rehashes the Enclave.

So what? It's an FPS, not an RPG. You could cut out all the cheesy cut scenes out of Jedi Knight and I would still like it.
I have different expectations of the writing based on what kind of game it is.

So? Just have the Enclave go through changes. Heck, the Enclave in FO3 is not the same as the one in FO2.

Yeah, they were even worse and less interesting.
And your approach is completely backwards. You're not coming to me with "Hey I have that neat idea about what happened to the remnants of the Enclave and they're now this and that...".
You want to force the Enclave in no matter what and then come up with an idea about what to do with them.
Frontier is already an incoherent mess - how would adding the Enclave to the mix help?

As the mods have already shown, you can have a reformed Enclave faction that genuinely wants to rebuild America without all the hatred for irradiated people. That's what the fans want when you see the mods they have for the Enclave, not the cartoon villains back in FO2, but the more nuanced Enclave like in FNV, only bigger. If you think the fans just want the same evil old Enclave, then you need to take a second look at these Enclave fanboys.

Literally the first time I heard about it. And I already hate it. It's so backwards and reliant on references like the Minutemen.
America means a lot to you but it doesn't mean shit to the people in the Wasteland.
They moved on and built something out of the ashes of the old world (which was a twisted caricature of the real America in the first place).
What's interesting about this? What are the conflicts? How do they develop from 6 guys to a major faction? What do they eat?

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

So what? It's an FPS, not an RPG. You could cut out all the cheesy cut scenes out of Jedi Knight and I would still like it.
I have different expectations of the writing based on what kind of game it is.


Yeah, they were even worse and less interesting.
And your approach is completely backwards. You're not coming to me with "Hey I have that neat idea about what happened to the remnants of the Enclave and they're now this and that...".
You want to force the Enclave in no matter what and then come up with an idea about what to do with them.
Frontier is already an incoherent mess - how would adding the Enclave to the mix help?


Literally the first time I heard about it. And I already hate it. It's so backwards and reliant on references like the Minutemen.
America means a lot to you but it doesn't mean shit to the people in the Wasteland.
They moved on and built something out of the ashes of the old world (which was a twisted caricature of the real America in the first place).
What's interesting about this? What are the conflicts? How do they develop from 6 guys to a major faction? What do they eat?

Same here. And re-hashing the Brotherhood is no different from re-hashing the Enclave. The only difference is, the Enclave has better tools and propaganda.

Why not have an Enclave civil war? I've seen mods have that idea. One side wants to maintain the whole "purity of humanity" thing, the other wants to help wastelanders by rebuilding America and rebuilding a sense of law and order on the lawless and chaotic wasteland. And as a role-player, you can join either one. You can join the "pure humans only" side of the Enclave and help them defeat the nicer Enclave and the other factions, or you can help the nicer side of the Enclave and have them either join or defeat the other factions based on your judgement. One side would be trying to continue the plan that Richardson and Eden started, the other side is basically what if Arcade Gannon had his own Enclave faction.

Considering that many people in the wasteland either came from vaults that instilled the idea of America in them, or were exposed to America by paraphanelia and remnants of American culture they find out in the wastes, (or in the Ghouls' case, were actual Americans when the bombs dropped), I highly disagree. There's more than enough people getting exposed to American culture. Shit, the NCR has the same goal as the Enclave does in rebuilding pre-war America, the only difference is that the NCR has more manpower and less tech than the Enclave. But they're both literally America refusing to die.

You can have new factions fighting alongside or against the Enclave, just as old Roman remnants and those who were trying to rebuild Rome were fighting against both the Moors and other barbarian tribes trying to create their own mini-empires over the Roman Empire's rotting carcass. You can have new factions and new conflicts and have them alongside the Enclave and the NCR trying to rebuild America amidst all this mess, just as the people who were trying to rebuild the Roman Empire were fighting with other tribes and peoples who were also trying to create their own empires, too.

That, and again, the fans demand it. Even Fallout 76 had the good graces to put the Enclave back in after the fans were spitting plasma over the fact that FO4 didn't have them. And the only kind of people who don't please their fans are ivory-tower idiots like the folks running Disney Star Wars when they made The Last Jedi while shoving middle fingers at the fans' faces. And look how that turned out for them.

What do they eat? Why not have the lab rats come up with something? Like Brahmin steaks or vault-grown veggies?

The fans are the idiots who pay or support you. If you don't please them, they take their money and support, and walk out the front door with their backs turned on you.

 

[Gravityqueen4life]

 

[byuu]

Why not have an Enclave civil war? I've seen mods have that idea. One side wants to maintain the whole "purity of humanity" thing, the other wants to help wastelanders by rebuilding America and rebuilding a sense of law and order on the lawless and chaotic wasteland.

Isn't that basically NCR versus same old Enclave?
What do you even mean by rebuilding America? The Enclave is not America. They're a centralised autocratic organisation to keep the powerful people in power after the war - it's the opposite of any American ideal. I would not expect an Enclave soldier to know anything about the Constitution.
I hate to break it to you but America is kill (in Fallout).

Almost everyone in the Enclave is dead. Almost all of their tech is in the hands of the NCR and BoS.
Maybe there's enough to scrape together a small settlement. But how would they be central to any major conflict?

That, and again, the fans demand it

What fans? The fans of FO3?
The die-hard autistic Fallout fans don't even like what FO2 did.
I don't browse NMA but I doubt there are lots of people crying for more Enclave on there.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Isn't that basically NCR versus same old Enclave?
What do you even mean by rebuilding America? The Enclave is not America. They're a centralised autocratic organisation to keep the powerful people in power after the war - it's the opposite of any American ideal. I would not expect an Enclave soldier to know anything about the Constitution.
I hate to break it to you but America is kill (in Fallout).

Almost everyone in the Enclave is dead. Almost all of their tech is in the hands of the NCR and BoS.
Maybe there's enough to scrape together a small settlement. But how would they be central to any major conflict?


What fans? The fans of FO3?
The die-hard autistic Fallout fans don't even like what FO2 did.
I don't browse NMA but I doubt there are lots of people crying for more Enclave on there.

Yes and no. Because this time, both sides have top-of-the-line equipment instead of one side having fucking potato-sack troopers and a handful of rangers.

They kind of are. It's America in a wartime scenario, and if you haven't read enough history, America gets pretty autocratic in times of stress. Our second president arrested anyone who even had the slightest empathy for revolutionary France, Abe Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus, and Woodrow Wilson passed the Espionage Act, going after Americans who opposed his wartime aims. The Enclave is America at war with the wasteland, and so, they're just as autocratic as John Adams, Woodrow Wilson, or Abe Lincoln were during times of stress and war. The Constitution itself wasn't perfect, and it had provisions for martial law:

Article 1, Section 9 of the US Constitution states, "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it." And the nation being one giant nuclear wasteland filled with monsters, mutants, and raiders would warrant that for reasons of "public safety".

The Enclave could easily have secret bases that could host a sizeable force. And it's been stated that the NCR had many Enclave people who integrated into society. I mean, they were nowhere to be found in FO1, and yet they just showed up in FO2.

Fans of Fallouts 2 AND 3. Hence why there's a lot of overlap between Enclave fans of both games, and they admired FNV for letting you get an Enclave force on your side. FO4 didn't have the Enclave, and the fans got miffed, then FO76 corrected that and the fans were happy.

Outside of you and a few others, most Fallout fans I've met want more Enclave in future Fallout games.