Fallout series

[Vault Boy]

The Frontier's setup is that Portland was being used as a staging area for the Alaska front prior to the war, which is where all the tanks, vertibirds and the fucking helicarrier come from.

But wouldn't Seattle or Vancouver be better staging areas since they're closer to Alaska than Portland?

I'm still flabbergasted at the helicarrier, especially when the US already had a bunch of carriers in the Pacific.

 

[A_Callow_Youth]

But wouldn't Seattle or Vancouver be better staging areas since they're closer to Alaska than Portland?

I'm still flabbergasted at the helicarrier, especially when the US already had a bunch of carriers in the Pacific.

Probably. There's an interview I linked somewhere in this or the other thread. It mentions that their two main ideas for the location of the Frontier were Portland or Seattle, and they settled on Portland specifically because it was closer to the Mojave and thus less of a stretch for the Courier to be dragging his ass out that far.

 

[Keystone]

Probably. There's an interview I linked somewhere in this or the other thread. It mentions that their two main ideas for the location of the Frontier were Portland or Seattle, and they settled on Portland specifically because it was closer to the Mojave and thus less of a stretch for the Courier to be dragging his ass out that far.

Yet these people also maintain that adding horny drug addled snake people wasn't a stretch

 

[M3xus]

Project Valkyrie for FO4 involves her as an alternate Brotherhood contact and you can reform the Brotherhood to not be so stupid.

Played it, liked what they were doing. Even let me take Maxson as a companion, which was fun. Plus, taking over and reforming the Institute was a lot more fun than blowing it up.

 

[Beautiful Loser]

IMO, nuking the Institute made little to no sense for any of the other factions. It's a treasure trove of tech for the BoS, the literal source of what the RR fights for, and would allow the MM to actually live up to their motto to "protect the people at a minute's notice" with their teleportation network.

 

[TVStactic]

IMO, nuking the Institute made little to no sense for any of the other factions. It's a treasure trove of tech for the BoS, the literal source of what the RR fights for, and would allow the MM to actually live up to their motto to "protect the people at a minute's notice" with their teleportation network.

the whole institute beef is some writer or possibly godd todd trying to play the emotional narrative card (it's pratically the entirety of FO4's if you notice, cait's recovery for instance tries to play a emotion card on you), them being comically evil and ultra retarded with father calling you straight up dumb "you wouldn't understand why we are replacing people because we think synths are evolution of humans so there" are noticeable markers. they have custom build-a=synth ffs if you check in the bioscience where the lead scientist tells you the gorillas are synths built based on what he thought what gorillas were, they aren't gorillas built from dna scraps collected from chimps or whatever, there was a potential that the sole survivor could easily nab a ghourilla (or ask cito do lend one to be paid with interest) on nuka world or tell the egghead what a gorilla was because pre-war knowledge but i guess they would need to call the VA back to record new lines or something that goes nowhere as usual in most of fo4's dialogue...

also, one thing i noticed is that FO4 canonizes pipe weapons because of FO76, at this point they could say that FO4/76 were located in a alternate reality because ze mojave has 9mm and BB guns, not even FO1/2 has pipe weapons, spears sure. but not that.

Would love for there to be a joke mod or something that actually has House's ghost follow you and criticize your every move.

Anyway, I like the Brotherhood of Steel. But in a sense that I find the imminent demise of the Mojave chapter and the decisions that led them to there kind of fascinating. They had so much potential for bringing civilization back but the stubbornness of its leaders and their hoarding tendencies ruin all of that.

Mr.House's Relic Mod? according to the wiki they are supposed to be hypocrites to a extent with some exceptions because they had founding from pre-war army remnants while the enclave is the pre-war govt with a apocalyptic coat of paint.

 

[Alcatraz]

It’s been a while since I played fallout 1 but doesn’t the brother hood of steel send you on a mission to join them, but in reality they’re just getting you killed so you’ll stop bothering them?

Yep. That's how the first Fallout game portrayed the Brotherhood. I get the feeling that they would have genocided the world with the FEV the same way Richardson would have done just so they can keep everyone from the tech they wish to heard.

It's a bit of both.

It was juxtaposition levied against the isolationist attitude they had, with myths and rumors surrounding them because they were rarely ever seen outside of their general area (which is just miles of flat, salted earth, to the point their theme is literally "Electric Monks"). The Vault Dweller wanted to ask if they knew anything about a water chip, but he had to join them to know that. So he asks if he can join.

"Oh of course you can. Just go to this area and uh... recover some technology. Yeah, that'll do it."

Thing is, the area they sent him to, an area aptly titled "The Glow" is so full of radiation, just entering the map on it's outskirts gives you a healthy dose of rads. You need several rad-x just to approach it. It's called that because it's spot on the map is just one huge hotspot.

It's the location of a West-Tek research bunker, and a place the brotherhood hasn't been able to plunder for its secrets. They've sent several scouts to recon and recover, but they never return, whether due to the radiation, or the automated defense system. Your mission is to recover a data module one of those dead brotherhood soldiers has, and returning with it has them express complete and utter shock you managed to do so. They let you join because of this.

It's supposed to show their integrity as a faction that keeps their word, because up to this point, everyone and their grandma has been using the Vault Dweller in some way, whether for their own gain, or just to fuck him over.

 

[A_Callow_Youth]

also, one thing i noticed is that FO4 canonizes pipe weapons because of FO76, at this point they could say that FO4/76 were located in a alternate reality because ze mojave has 9mm and BB guns, not even FO1/2 has pipe weapons, spears sure. but not that.

I enjoy the pipe weapons on paper, their mechanical failings notwithstanding, but at the same time they don't really fit Fallout, because improvised weapons like that are only going to appear if real weapons are scarce, which given that this is a universe that probably never passed the Assault Weapons Ban, is probably not the case.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I enjoy the pipe weapons on paper, their mechanical failings notwithstanding, but at the same time they don't really fit Fallout, because improvised weapons like that are only going to appear if real weapons are scarce, which given that this is a universe that probably never passed the Assault Weapons Ban, is probably not the case.

Pipe weapons only make sense if every dipshit raider tribe didn't carry real firearms. Not to mention that the bigger factions in Fallout have energy weapons that make assault weapons look like peashooters.

I recently wiped out the bunker full of Brotherhood Paladins in FNV for the umpteenth time using my handy-dandy plasma caster. An entire platoon of guys who shake off bullets from real assault weapons as if they're naught but spitballs, and I had a plasma cannon that can blow through them as if their armor was wet toilet paper, even in the highest difficulty. It kinda kills the appeal of pipe weapons in Fallout for me when I can just use real assault weapons I took off some dead raiders to kill some poor schmuck from the Brotherhood who wandered too far from their base and steal his laser rifle.

It's a bit of both.

It was juxtaposition levied against the isolationist attitude they had, with myths and rumors surrounding them because they were rarely ever seen outside of their general area (which is just miles of flat, salted earth, to the point their theme is literally "Electric Monks"). The Vault Dweller wanted to ask if they knew anything about a water chip, but he had to join them to know that. So he asks if he can join.

"Oh of course you can. Just go to this area and uh... recover some technology. Yeah, that'll do it."

Thing is, the area they sent him to, an area aptly titled "The Glow" is so full of radiation, just entering the map on it's outskirts gives you a healthy dose of rads. You need several rad-x just to approach it. It's called that because it's spot on the map is just one huge hotspot.
View attachment 1884219
It's the location of a West-Tek research bunker, and a place the brotherhood hasn't been able to plunder for its secrets. They've sent several scouts to recon and recover, but they never return, whether due to the radiation, or the automated defense system. Your mission is to recover a data module one of those dead brotherhood soldiers has, and returning with it has them express complete and utter shock you managed to do so. They let you join because of this.

It's supposed to show their integrity as a faction that keeps their word, because up to this point, everyone and their grandma has been using the Vault Dweller in some way, whether for their own gain, or just to fuck him over.

It basically characterized the Brotherhood of Steel in a nutshell. They were straight with you when you talk with them, but behind closed doors, they'd be far happier if everyone outside died. They're no better than the Enclave. The only difference is that the Enclave HAD a method to kill everyone. Which I'm sure the pre-FO1 Brotherhood would have used if they had it, just to keep those filthy wastelanders from touching all that PRECIOUS technology the Brotherhood wants to hoard.

Shit, isn't that what you do to the East Coast when you ally with Father Elijah in the Dead Money DLC?

 

[Alcatraz]

not even FO1/2 has pipe weapons

The Pipe Rifle exists though.

Granted, it was a 10mm loaded weapon and you had to reload after every shot, but it exists.
And pipe weapons would be fine and all if...

I enjoy the pipe weapons on paper, their mechanical failings notwithstanding, but at the same time they don't really fit Fallout, because improvised weapons like that are only going to appear if real weapons are scarce, which given that this is a universe that probably never passed the Assault Weapons Ban, is probably not the case.

Yeah, this.

There's multiple, numerous, and varied cases of pre-war america being less than amazing. Constant civil unrest, corporate conspiracy, communist paranoia, armed revolts, The Free States Movement, and so on, all with access to bundles and oodles of weapons and ammunition. In some cases, it was even encouraged, because of possible communist invasion in case the military ever failed. Citizens were expected to do their part if it ever came to that. The first and most likely thing to survive the bombs would be weapons, and given the sheer number of military installations across the country, would be countless amounts of it.


One plot point in Honest Hearts has Joshua explain where the White Legs got their exceptional firepower, and it's because they raided an armory near Spanish Fork. A wholeass armory, in 2281, a mere 7 years before Fallout 4. Unless you're hurting for caps and have no access to any weapons shop in any settlement, then maybe you could make a pipe weapon, but guns are practically spilling out all over the place anyway.

 

[Dave.]

It's a bit of both.

It was juxtaposition levied against the isolationist attitude they had, with myths and rumors surrounding them because they were rarely ever seen outside of their general area (which is just miles of flat, salted earth, to the point their theme is literally "Electric Monks"). The Vault Dweller wanted to ask if they knew anything about a water chip, but he had to join them to know that. So he asks if he can join.

"Oh of course you can. Just go to this area and uh... recover some technology. Yeah, that'll do it."

Thing is, the area they sent him to, an area aptly titled "The Glow" is so full of radiation, just entering the map on it's outskirts gives you a healthy dose of rads. You need several rad-x just to approach it. It's called that because it's spot on the map is just one huge hotspot.
View attachment 1884219
It's the location of a West-Tek research bunker, and a place the brotherhood hasn't been able to plunder for its secrets. They've sent several scouts to recon and recover, but they never return, whether due to the radiation, or the automated defense system. Your mission is to recover a data module one of those dead brotherhood soldiers has, and returning with it has them express complete and utter shock you managed to do so. They let you join because of this.

It's supposed to show their integrity as a faction that keeps their word, because up to this point, everyone and their grandma has been using the Vault Dweller in some way, whether for their own gain, or just to fuck him over.

That was one part of the story that kind of bothered me. It's a bit of a nitpick and other games have done similar things so I'm not going to rail against it too hard, but if the Brotherhood of Steel had some awareness of the radiation and they show up decked in power armor and the automated defense system was enough to stop them, the unaware and potentially unprepared vault dweller is the one who succeeds? Again its a typical RPG trope, but that was there and it kind of made me pause.

 

[Alcatraz]

That was one part of the story that kind of bothered me. It's a bit of a nitpick and other games have done similar things so I'm not going to rail against it too hard, but if the Brotherhood of Steel had some awareness of the radiation and they show up decked in power armor and the automated defense system was enough to stop them, the unaware and potentially unprepared vault dweller is the one who succeeds? Again its a typical RPG trope, but that was there and it kind of made me pause.

Unless you somehow stumble across Necropolis early, it would always lead to them and you getting the module from The Glow for them. It's not excusable behavior, but they kept their word. I'd honestly give them a Lawful Neutral designation, were this DnD. They want to hoard tech under the reasoning that humanity would just destroy themselves with it again. And they're right in some regards.

Shit, isn't that what you do to the East Coast when you ally with Father Elijah in the Dead Money DLC?

Elijah was an egomaniac that wanted to rebuild the Mojave in his image. Preserve everything as it was and keep it to himself. He was the brotherhoods stated mission statement brought to it's logical extreme. Only, the Brotherhood wants to protect humanity by making sure none of them have the cool toys they do. Elijah had the same reasoning... but instead he'd destroy humanity to achieve the same goal.

It's both sides to the same coin.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

There's multiple, numerous, and varied cases of pre-war america being less than amazing. Constant civil unrest, corporate conspiracy, communist paranoia, armed revolts, The Free States Movement, and so on, all with access to bundles and oodles of weapons and ammunition. In some cases, it was even encouraged, because of possible communist invasion in case the military ever failed. Citizens were expected to do their part if it ever came to that. The first and most likely thing to survive the bombs would be weapons, and given the sheer number of military installations across the country, would be countless amounts of it.


One plot point in Honest Hearts has Joshua explain where the White Legs got their exceptional firepower, and it's because they raided an armory near Spanish Fork. A wholeass armory, in 2281, a mere 7 years before Fallout 4. Unless you're hurting for caps and have no access to any weapons shop in any settlement, then maybe you could make a pipe weapon, but guns are practically spilling out all over the place anyway.

It became even funnier when FNV has three big stores for weapons while FO3 has energy weapons literally being everywhere once the Enclave rolls up. Anyone's desire for a pipe gun falls off once every Tom, Dick, and Harry shows up with laser and plasma guns that can melt power-armored dudes.

Elijah was an egomaniac that wanted to rebuild the Mojave in his image. Preserve everything as it was and keep it to himself. He was the brotherhoods stated mission statement brought to it's logical extreme. Only, the Brotherhood wants to protect humanity by making sure none of them have the cool toys they do. Elijah had the same reasoning... but instead he'd destroy humanity to achieve the same goal.

It's both sides to the same coin.

The Brotherhood's version of "protecting humanity" after Roger Maxson died is to hold up on their bunkers and tell everyone to get fucked. And eventually, there's so much tech left from the old world that the only way to keep wastelanders from it all is to kill them all so they can't have it.

The Brotherhood and the Enclave from Fallouts 1 and 2 were the same beast. The only difference is that one salvages while the other innovates, so the latter actually can kill everyone on the outside while the former can only hope everyone outside dies off.

 

[Dave.]

Unless you somehow stumble across Necropolis early, it would always lead to them and you getting the module from The Glow for them. It's not excusable behavior, but they kept their word. I'd honestly give them a Lawful Neutral designation, were this DnD. They want to hoard tech under the reasoning that humanity would just destroy themselves with it again. And they're right in some regards.

The Brotherhood's version of "protecting humanity" after Roger Maxson died is to hold up on their bunkers and tell everyone to get fucked. And eventually, there's so much tech left from the old world that the only way to keep wastelanders from it all is to kill them all so they can't have it.

The Brotherhood and the Enclave from Fallouts 1 and 2 were the same beast. The only difference is that one salvages while the other innovates, so the latter actually can kill everyone on the outside while the former can only hope everyone outside dies off.

It's why I stand by that NCR was the better faction realistically than the Legion and BoS and the Enclave. While the Enclave believed in old world capitalist ideas, they didn't believe in a world where megaevolved beings roamed the lands which meant innocent people could die even if they were intact humans (even if Enclave is a meme they really weren't all that bright in Fallout 2). The Brotherhood of Steel are selfish, opportunistic assholes who do have a sense of honor, but they're willing to turn their back if it benefits them in the long run. And the Legion believed in totalitarian beliefs and would eventually spread itself out too thin and fall apart like Rome did back in the day and their more 'right leaning' ideals probably would turn more progressive as time goes on hastening that fall. Personally the best options are let the people govern themselves and unite on their own terms (Yes Man ending, colonial america) or the NCR (establish a capitalist regime that believes in law and order and democracy where you at least HAVE a chance to make it big). Honestly I'm divided between those two.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

It's why I stand by that NCR was the better faction realistically than the Legion and BoS and the Enclave. While the Enclave believed in old world capitalist ideas, they didn't believe in a world where megaevolved beings roamed the lands which meant innocent people could die even if they were intact humans (even if Enclave is a meme they really weren't all that bright in Fallout 2). The Brotherhood of Steel are selfish, opportunistic assholes who do have a sense of honor, but they're willing to turn their back if it benefits them in the long run. And the Legion believed in totalitarian beliefs and would eventually spread itself out too thin and fall apart like Rome did back in the day and their more 'right leaning' ideals probably would turn more progressive as time goes on hastening that fall. Personally the best options are let the people govern themselves and unite on their own terms (Yes Man ending, colonial america) or the NCR (establish a capitalist regime that believes in law and order and democracy where you at least HAVE a chance to make it big). Honestly I'm divided between those two.

I don't think the Enclave still believes in Capitalism. They're just an autocratic military government that has a small sliver of democratic traditions. (President Richardson was elected by Enclave officials, but he served more than two terms) They've devolved into the Byzantium of Fallout. It's like how Rome started off with a complex electoral monarchy that evolved into a Senate and then a Principality/Empire, but its later counterpart, Byzantium, was just basically an autocratic state with one asshole at the top barking orders at the peons. The Enclave is like that; this once complex government that involved elections, checks and balances, reduced to a military autocracy by the ravages of war and the loss of territory. Like Byzantium, the only thing they've got going for them is that they're the scientific capital of what's left of the world (both the Islamic and Medieval worlds ripped off Byzantine science, while the Enclave is the sole faction that's still creating new power armor models and new weapons like plasma rifles) and they have an ancient claim to the world they inhabit-one that they're unable to press.

But, the Enclave's science is something. They took the Forced Evolutionary Virus, a virus made to CREATE mutants, and they turned it into a virus that KILLS mutants. They developed new suits of power armor and weaponry while the Brotherhood, the most technologically advanced faction out in the wasteland, is just scavenging what's left. Even Robert Edwin House, as smart as he was, he was merely just using the stuff he invented before the bombs dropped. The Enclave leaders were idiots, but their science was impressive, and I can just imagine an alternate reality where the Chosen One managed to talk down President Richardson or infiltrate the Enclave ranks and eventually rise to become their president through the right amount of boot-kissing the Enclave elite and judiciously causing a few "accidents" that would get rid of them AFTER they gave the CO power. Then the Chosen One becomes the new man or woman in charge, and they can do anything from using the Enclave's resources to make life better, or go full bandit king and use the Enclave's firepower to conquer the wasteland and enslave/subjugate everyone, from Sea to Shining Sea.

Imagine the Enclave, as powerful and scientifically brilliant as it was in FO2, then imagine someone like Edward Sallow or Arcade Gannon in charge. Instead of a stupid genocide plan that will just end with the Enclave dying out from inbreeding, the Enclave could either be a great force for good, using their science and firepower to solve problems and restore order to the American wasteland, bringing hope to all. Or it could be a conquering force the likes of which the world has never seen before, where the average soldier has power armor that laughs off whole clips of assault rifle fire and makes deathclaw-hunting look like a child's sport. A force that can use biological warfare as a threat to cow the masses to serve them while the firepower they bring to battle can reduce armies of Super Mutants and power-armored Brotherhood Paladins into smoking ashes.

If the Enclave just had the right guy leading them, retaking the world and rebuilding America would have been possible, either through the honorable and noble path of helping everyone so they declare you their leader, or through the dark and twisted path of reducing enough of the enemy to radioactive goo so that the rest of them know who wears the pants in the relationship.

 

[iceteayo]

I wanna like the Legion but I really cant defend them in their current incarnation I am always told "Bro the cut content bro Bethesda forced them to be evil bro" and the problem is you can make the Legion look so much better easily. I think most of the problems stem from Caesar himself the dude is straight up a retard who read half a history book. However, at the same time I cant help but be amazed how just how much more intelligent the Legion is compared to the NCR. Most of the Legion Quests are just Caesar telling you "Okay so we have been in contact with this organization before or we currently doing this plan just go help them please" compared to the NCRs "Courier please everyone hates us these tribal larpers are always one step ahead of us oh my god I think the rocks are speaking latin"

I think my problem is the Legion feels much more like Sparta than Rome the dislike of technology never really rubbed me the right way since the Legion is shown to use technology (some legionaries use guns, power fists, and the howitzer) or really advanced tactics when fighting the NCR (Frumentaris basically insert themselves into almost every facet of the Mojave, years of planning, psyops, disinformation warfare). Compared to the tactics the NCR use under Oliver they downright look like savage tribals with guns compared to the Legion.

Personally, my 3 major things to fixing the Legion have got to be slaves can earn their freedom through hard work, forget the hate boner over technology Rome was so strong since they pushed for advancement in both military and society, and maybe introduce an Octavian of sorts where he wants to reform the Legion for the better but still stay true to the ideals of Rome.

 

[Dave.]

I wanna like the Legion but I really cant defend them in their current incarnation I am always told "Bro the cut content bro Bethesda forced them to be evil bro" and the problem is you can make the Legion look so much better easily. I think most of the problems stem from Caesar himself the dude is straight up a retard who read half a history book. However, at the same time I cant help but be amazed how just how much more intelligent the Legion is compared to the NCR. Most of the Legion Quests are just Caesar telling you "Okay so we have been in contact with this organization before or we currently doing this plan just go help them please" compared to the NCRs "Courier please everyone hates us these tribal larpers are always one step ahead of us oh my god I think the rocks are speaking latin"

I think my problem is the Legion feels much more like Sparta than Rome the dislike of technology never really rubbed me the right way since the Legion is shown to use technology (some legionaries use guns, power fists, and the howitzer) or really advanced tactics when fighting the NCR (Frumentaris basically insert themselves into almost every facet of the Mojave, years of planning, psyops, disinformation warfare). Compared to the tactics the NCR use under Oliver they downright look like savage tribals with guns compared to the Legion.

Personally, my 3 major things to fixing the Legion have got to be slaves can earn their freedom through hard work, forget the hate boner over technology Rome was so strong since they pushed for advancement in both military and society, and maybe introduce an Octavian of sorts where he wants to reform the Legion for the better but still stay true to the ideals of Rome.

They also need to hold the territory they have tight. The problem I had personally with the legion was they were overly militaristic and one of the reasons Rome fell was because they couldn’t hold their earned territories when they stretched themselves too thin. Considering what Caesar and Lanius were saying about war, New Vegas probably wasn’t the only territory they were looking to conquer. It’s made even worse with their aversion to technology because that limits communication between territories and keeping it held together is challenging (sometimes impossible). Long term I could never see the Legion succeeding and eventually I could see progressivism (also what caused Rome to fall) spreading within where women became soldiers etc.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I wanna like the Legion but I really cant defend them in their current incarnation I am always told "Bro the cut content bro Bethesda forced them to be evil bro" and the problem is you can make the Legion look so much better easily. I think most of the problems stem from Caesar himself the dude is straight up a retard who read half a history book. However, at the same time I cant help but be amazed how just how much more intelligent the Legion is compared to the NCR. Most of the Legion Quests are just Caesar telling you "Okay so we have been in contact with this organization before or we currently doing this plan just go help them please" compared to the NCRs "Courier please everyone hates us these tribal larpers are always one step ahead of us oh my god I think the rocks are speaking latin"

I think my problem is the Legion feels much more like Sparta than Rome the dislike of technology never really rubbed me the right way since the Legion is shown to use technology (some legionaries use guns, power fists, and the howitzer) or really advanced tactics when fighting the NCR (Frumentaris basically insert themselves into almost every facet of the Mojave, years of planning, psyops, disinformation warfare). Compared to the tactics the NCR use under Oliver they downright look like savage tribals with guns compared to the Legion.

Personally, my 3 major things to fixing the Legion have got to be slaves can earn their freedom through hard work, forget the hate boner over technology Rome was so strong since they pushed for advancement in both military and society, and maybe introduce an Octavian of sorts where he wants to reform the Legion for the better but still stay true to the ideals of Rome.

I think that was the point. Edward Sallow is a smart guy, but he only read parts of books instead of getting not only the full story but also the context behind the books he was reading. He's what we call a "Sophos Moros", or a "wise fool". He's wise when compared to the average barbarian or politician, but he's an intellectual dilettante when compared to real intellectuals. His appeal, in the end, lies in the ultra-nationalist and hardcore warrior ways of his faction, and their utter hatred for anything that reeks of degeneracy.

And I also think the Legion is a victim of what one of my friends call "Hollywood Rome", that is, a movie-based view of the Roman Empire as this center of power and civilization through simple tyranny and military might, looking over parts of Roman history where piety, propriety, family values, and good manners were once a part of Roman life. The writers of FNV based the Legion not on the real Rome, but on Hollywood's version of Rome, a version of Rome created by people who saw it as nothing more but a tyrant state full of slavery and militarism, a version far unlike the real Rome which had complex political issues before, during and after the Imperial period.

But yeah, compared to the NCR, who basically are about as bureaucratically efficient as the fucking Imperium of Man, the Legion stands head and shoulders above them. The NCR is a liberal democracy that's drowning in red tape and infighting so badly that some intellectual dilettante and his tribe of Roman cosplayers are running rings around them just because he knows how to inspire people and properly run a bureaucracy AND an army. You look at the NCR soldiers, and Chief Hanlon even states that not all of them have proper service rifles or armor. They're literally at the same state the Russian army was in WWI, where there were more people than rifles, and in the five years since they kicked out Joshua Graham from Hoover Dam, they've done nothing but lose thousands of people to Legion attacks and attacks from random gangs and crooks.

If I were writing the story, I would have written in that the Legion lost its primitivism after Joshua Graham lost at Hoover Dam. They would actually take in Enclave remnants from the FO3 Enclave. Like say, they fled the carnage in Washington DC in disgrace, or they got lost and never made it to Washington DC in the first place, then after the First Battle of Hoover Dam, they came across the Legion, and when Caesar recognized who they were, he offers them an honored place in his Legion, and he starts integrating them into the Legion and getting them to work producing energy weapons and power armor for his men to make up for Joshua Graham's defeat at Hoover Dam, with them reactivating old factories in Legion turf for that purpose.

I would have the game at first show the Legion to be primitive, with most Legion scouts and recruits you meet having the same primitive weapons and armor as in the base game, and even have the NCR guys talk about how the Legion in the last war only used rudimentary guns and explosives as the height of their tech. Then I would surprise the player by having Legion elite troopers show up decked in Fallout 3 Enclave power armors shouting "AVE, CAESAR!" while holding aloft their thermic lances and laser/plasma rifles when the Courier goes to Caesar's camp and he gives a speech about how they're going to win this time.

And as the Courier looks over the sea of men in black power armor yelling "AVE, TRUE TO CAESAR!" it's hard to argue with that idea, making the NCR campaign all the more harder, especially when a platoon of these Legion/Enclave troopers storm an NCR position and easily kill everyone there, even the Rangers. It gets so bad to the point where after this gets revealed, the NCR responds by offering pardons to Enclave and Brotherhood remnants within their own territory who haven't yet joined the Legion, so they can get advanced power armor and energy weapons training/production for their own troops.

Of course, if you go the Mr. House or Yes Man route, these power-armored Legion/Enclave boys run into fully-upgraded Securitrons, and they just get fucking peppered with rockets and grenades meant for tanks, so it's not like this will change those routes that much.

 

[TVStactic]

[...]

don't you teach the waters dude about the mines and he replies how dumb most legion forces acted whenever a mine went off? he says something like them dropping to the floor rather than rushing to disable the mine, it's on the camp where there's 3 NCR soldiers and that ranger comes to warn you to not go to, somewhat near camp hope, the legion is somewhat primitive but at the hoover dam you'll see them using AMR's and AR's tho.

I wanna like the Legion but I really cant defend them in their current incarnation I am always told "Bro the cut content bro Bethesda forced them to be evil bro" and the problem is you can make the Legion look so much better easily. I think most of the problems stem from Caesar himself the dude is straight up a retard who read half a history book. However, at the same time I cant help but be amazed how just how much more intelligent the Legion is compared to the NCR. Most of the Legion Quests are just Caesar telling you "Okay so we have been in contact with this organization before or we currently doing this plan just go help them please" compared to the NCRs "Courier please everyone hates us these tribal larpers are always one step ahead of us oh my god I think the rocks are speaking latin"

I think my problem is the Legion feels much more like Sparta than Rome the dislike of technology never really rubbed me the right way since the Legion is shown to use technology (some legionaries use guns, power fists, and the howitzer) or really advanced tactics when fighting the NCR (Frumentaris basically insert themselves into almost every facet of the Mojave, years of planning, psyops, disinformation warfare). Compared to the tactics the NCR use under Oliver they downright look like savage tribals with guns compared to the Legion.

Personally, my 3 major things to fixing the Legion have got to be slaves can earn their freedom through hard work, forget the hate boner over technology Rome was so strong since they pushed for advancement in both military and society, and maybe introduce an Octavian of sorts where he wants to reform the Legion for the better but still stay true to the ideals of Rome.

Oliver was incompetent because of his ambitions to return back to california as pretty much half of the NCR forces in the mojave really, the chief ranger doing misinformation on purpose to prevent his teams from being attacked and shit also shows oliver's incompetence, "beth being evil" has nothing to do with how obsidian wanted to portray the characters and factions as somewhat flawed but better than nothing, caesar is a retard, oliver is a retard, house is a huge retard and yes men is a retard with you being the spear for them to wield and control to mojave (also ze dam too because power is important for legion somehow? joke, it's for military flex), caesar's retardeness being your 3 major points against them, he keeps a auto doc as a dog treat if you can drag yourself to do his quests, the legion isn't really a legion because of him.

[...]

yeah, the elected president didn't really do much for the enclave but to serve as a memorabilia to what they were supposed to represent but the intro cinematic of FO2 disagrees with what their soldiers believe/did, even President Eden is mentally broken to a point of using a modified FEV in the water to kill everyone that wasn't a pure blooded Übermensch but he is a AI programmed with whatever enclave programmers could think of so...

It's why I stand by that NCR was the better faction realistically than the Legion and BoS and the Enclave. While the Enclave believed in old world capitalist ideas, they didn't believe in a world where megaevolved beings roamed the lands which meant innocent people could die even if they were intact humans (even if Enclave is a meme they really weren't all that bright in Fallout 2). The Brotherhood of Steel are selfish, opportunistic assholes who do have a sense of honor, but they're willing to turn their back if it benefits them in the long run. And the Legion believed in totalitarian beliefs and would eventually spread itself out too thin and fall apart like Rome did back in the day and their more 'right leaning' ideals probably would turn more progressive as time goes on hastening that fall. Personally the best options are let the people govern themselves and unite on their own terms (Yes Man ending, colonial america) or the NCR (establish a capitalist regime that believes in law and order and democracy where you at least HAVE a chance to make it big). Honestly I'm divided between those two.

isn't enclave's dick levels because of them being the old govt? their scientist teams surely did get on with the times by giving us X01 power armor but the politics and muscle were super dumb, aside from Sgt.Dornan even Col.Autumn is a joke by claiming to be the enclave while also claiming he respects the chain of command but he at least tried to help the wasteland folks until Eden got crazier... the Legion being eaten from inside out was foreshadowed by ze enclave companion in FNV (Arcade) and by Caesar (Ave) hisself, he knew it was going to be dissolved someday but at least he hoped for it to be stable for a while, unlike allowing each bumfuck location to become their own village and fight for scraps with others, he wanted to unite and saw rome as the only example that could be applied to his region granted his toddler reading skills, the NCR being his "antithesis" (doing the same shit he did but being less brutal and gay, also more corrupt than his legionnaries)

The Pipe Rifle exists though.

Granted, it was a 10mm loaded weapon and you had to reload after every shot, but it exists.
And pipe weapons would be fine and all if...

found it, it's on fo2, in the boardgame and supposedly was going to be on cut van buren:

on fo4 there's pipe revolvers that use .45/.38/.308 and pistols that use .38/.45, snipers with .308/.50. fallout 4 is on 2287 right? there is still alot of weapons to be found in alot of places including sealed ones near the glowing sea, whereas the silly fallout loot system comes in place as you may find a recon pipe rifle in a prewar safe, i forgot to mention that in my rant as Beth did a Guns and Bullets magazine canonizing pipe guns in the pre-war whereas the one you mention is post-war that is built by the artisan, "This is a hand-made single shot rifle."... and the only 9mm we see is a custom one that shoots 10mm, it being Deliverer which is graet for sneak players besides spray n' pray, the rest of possible guns are the gauss rifle which looks like a prototype in the commonwealth, while in the mojave is a pulse sniper rifle so to speak, combat wifles/snipers which every raider and his granny has granted you are past level 13 and the only .50 we get in the commonwealth is the ammo type unless we pick a creation club mod which brings FNV's AMR into the game else it's the common sniper rifle, sadly... no explosive bullets to cripple deathclaws with, while bullet damage effects being tied to guns rather than the bullet composition, streamlines the game a bit though and makes you less of a hoarder, miniguns being what caused a many crashes on my modded saves for some reason with laser gatling rifles being rare than bottlecap grenades in my sessions, laser rifles/pistol descending from the same ancestor and lazer musket being powerful AF to give to npc's, radium rifle makes sense because irradiated weapons, gamma gun being hard to hit something unless you were at smooch distance on par with the alien blaster, cryolator i never arsed myself because it's a ice flammenwerfer without napalm.

melee wise the game got stale once i figured it out that sledgehammers with the eletrical/fire mod gave more damage than super sledges and had less weight.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

don't you teach the waters dude about the mines and he replies how dumb most legion forces acted whenever a mine went off? he says something like them dropping to the floor rather than rushing to disable the mine, it's on the camp where there's 3 NCR soldiers and that ranger comes to warn you to not go to, somewhat near camp hope, the legion is somewhat primitive but at the hoover dam you'll see them using AMR's and AR's tho.

I know. It's kind of jarring to see the Legion be presented as primitive, only for them to roll into Hoover Dam with up-to-date assault weapons and even armor-piercing sniper rifles. I once got killed by a Centurion with an anti-materiel rifle, and I was wearing the full Enclave Remnants' power armor, so I just didn't get it whenever people talked about how low-tech the Legion was, when my usual interaction with them was four dudes jumping me with machine guns and super sledges.

Oliver was incompetent because of his ambitions to return back to california as pretty much half of the NCR forces in the mojave really, the chief ranger doing misinformation on purpose to prevent his teams from being attacked and shit also shows oliver's incompetence, "beth being evil" has nothing to do with how obsidian wanted to portray the characters and factions as somewhat flawed but better than nothing, caesar is a retard, oliver is a retard, house is a huge retard and yes men is a retard with you being the spear for them to wield and control to mojave (also ze dam too because power is important for legion somehow? joke, it's for military flex), caesar's retardeness being your 3 major points against them, he keeps a auto doc as a dog treat if you can drag yourself to do his quests, the legion isn't really a legion because of him.

Oliver is basically Kimball's pet. He's there because he kissed the right ass, not because he won the right battles. If the NCR had half a brain, they'd have put Chief Hanlon in charge of all operations in the Mojave, but since he opposes the NCR's Imperialism they couldn't trust him with that.

Yes Man can't even count as retarded. He's just a doormat for you to use while lording over Vegas after House's death.

yeah, the elected president didn't really do much for the enclave but to serve as a memorabilia to what they were supposed to represent but the intro cinematic of FO2 disagrees with what their soldiers believe/did, even President Eden is mentally broken to a point of using a modified FEV in the water to kill everyone that wasn't a pure blooded Übermensch but he is a AI programmed with whatever enclave programmers could think of so...

It's somewhat similar to how the Byzantine Senate was practically useless by the time of the Medieval era. It's supposed to be the Roman Senate, it's supposed to be important. But in the end, they're just there to smile and wave at the Emperor while he barks at the peons and issues all the orders.

isn't enclave's dick levels because of them being the old govt? their scientist teams surely did get on with the times by giving us X01 power armor but the politics and muscle were super dumb, aside from Sgt.Dornan even Col.Autumn is a joke by claiming to be the enclave while also claiming he respects the chain of command but he at least tried to help the wasteland folks until Eden got crazier... the Legion being eaten from inside out was foreshadowed by ze enclave companion in FNV (Arcade) and by Caesar (Ave) hisself, he knew it was going to be dissolved someday but at least he hoped for it to be stable for a while, unlike allowing each bumfuck location to become their own village and fight for scraps with others, he wanted to unite and saw rome as the only example that could be applied to his region granted his toddler reading skills, the NCR being his "antithesis" (doing the same shit he did but being less brutal and gay, also more corrupt than his legionnaries)

That's my point. It looks like all the Enclave's brains were focused on the science department while the rest were just either retarded politicians or dumb muscle. Perhaps that's why a smooth-talking AI like Eden was able to exert so much power over them. (although not enough to override Autumn) He can actually be charismatic, while Richardson is another idiot who hates it when people complain.