Formula 1 Discussion - And favourite driver?

Great race, absolutely amazing. So happy for Gasly, he worked hard for this, he earned it. But I wouldn't have been sad to see Sainz win, either.
Too bad this was Sainz' last chance to win a race for a long time... poor guy will have to deal with whatever Ferrari shits out next season.
Don't count your chickens yet we still have nearly half a season to go and fuck-ups can always happen (fingers crossed). I feel kinda sorry for Stroll but he messed up the start and tbh sainz was the fastest of the podium. At least Lewis won't get the 91st victory on the 1000 F1 race. And when I saw the onboard there was a red sign though the color was more like an orange one. Still Why did most of the field get it right and the top team did not?
 
Well that's it no more appeals against the racing point decision. The appeals were tactical to force the FIA into clearer and stronger wording against copying of parts and they've accomplished that.

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Don't count your chickens yet we still have nearly half a season to go and fuck-ups can always happen (fingers crossed). I feel kinda sorry for Stroll but he messed up the start and tbh sainz was the fastest of the podium. At least Lewis won't get the 91st victory on the 1000 F1 race. And when I saw the onboard there was a red sign though the color was more like an orange one. Still Why did most of the field get it right and the top team did not?
I guess that is partially the fault of the camera setup, that just has an issue picking up the correct color when the light is very bright. I guess Mercedes heard there'd be a Safety Car and usually in that situation, the best thing is to box as quickly as possible. I guess they just jumped the gun and missed the little issue about pitlane being closed.
Be that as it may, punishing the team with a 10 second stop and go is absolutely fair and appropriate, after all, the pitlane gets closed for safety reasons.

And I agree, Sainz did a great job, only one more lap to go, and he might have overtaken Gasly.

I'm just wondering how Italian F1 fans feel like. Ferrari was a desaster through and through, it seems they get worse every race (seriously: a total brake failure... that is messed up), at least Alpha Tauri delivered. A shame there were no fans at this race, they'd have flipped their shit at the Italian anthem being played.
 
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I'm just wondering how Italian F1 fans feel like. Ferrari was a desaster through and through, it seems they get worse every race (seriously: a total brake failure... that is messed up), at least Alpha Tauri delivered. A shame there were no fans at this race, they'd have flipped their shit at the Italian anthem being played.
Italian mate of mine was reading through Twitter (which we all know is the only source of opinion) and picking out anything in Italian pertaining to the race, lots of calling for Binotto's blood is the best way I can simplify what was going on.
Personally, I hope that the other races in Italy all lead to Ferrari scoring no points, because that'll just be funny - I envision absolutely everyone in Ferrari being fired, drivers, engineers, PR, everyone, even people not in the F1 department (Like James Calado, for example, who drives sportscars for them). Scorched earth would be funny to watch.
 
Italian mate of mine was reading through Twitter (which we all know is the only source of opinion) and picking out anything in Italian pertaining to the race, lots of calling for Binotto's blood is the best way I can simplify what was going on.
Personally, I hope that the other races in Italy all lead to Ferrari scoring no points, because that'll just be funny - I envision absolutely everyone in Ferrari being fired, drivers, engineers, PR, everyone, even people not in the F1 department (Like James Calado, for example, who drives sportscars for them). Scorched earth would be funny to watch.
So, what are they saying about Vettel? Does or did he take a lot of blame for the bad results? He does perform more poorly than Leclerc, but both struggle a lot.

On an unrelated note, I am saddened we won't be seeing Hanoi and Zandvoort this season. Would have been awesome.
 
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So, what are they saying about Vettel? Does or did he take a lot of blame for the bad results? He does perform more poorly than Leclerc, but both struggle a lot.
The general impression is that he's shit (surprise, he is) and always has been (surprise, mostly correct) and Ferrari are useless to have hired him in the first place. Leclerc having reached breaking point and trashtalking the car (validly) is causing a little bit of upset in the diehards, but most are just saying he shouldn't be doing that.
 
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The general impression is that he's shit (surprise, he is) and always has been (surprise, mostly correct) and Ferrari are useless to have hired him in the first place. Leclerc having reached breaking point and trashtalking the car (validly) is causing a little bit of upset in the diehards, but most are just saying he shouldn't be doing that.
He's not my favorite driver, but saying he's shit or badmouthing his former performance is silly tbh. Since he joined Ferrari he finished the championship on 2nd place 2 times, and one time each on 3rd and 4th against some pretty severe competition. Last year, he ranked 5th, 24 points behind Leclerc who is (I will readily admit) a very good driver too. Even if Vettel stayed with Ferrari and they closed the gap to Mercedes, I doubt he'd be able to become Champion again, he's too old for that and Leclerc is clearly better than Vettel's performance of the past two years. But the Ferrari Tifosi were always pretty quick to talk badly about a pilot that they feel keeps the team back - no matter what that driver achieved in the past and how objectively awful the car is in that season.

What did Leclerc say that pissed them off?
Afaik, Leclerc went out of his way to take the blame for his crash, but I really can't see how it was a drivers error. He didn't shunt over a curb, he didn't get on slippery ground, dirt or gravel, if anything, he took the turn far less aggressive than some of the other drivers and his tyres should have been warm enough to handle it. The car has atrocious balancing and that's it. It's like the driver has to fight the car in every turn, little wonder Ferrari is shit this season.
After his brake failure, Vettel said that Ferrari is in no position to make a comeback this season and joked about the car, so the Tifosi are butthurt over his mean words, but I didn't hear anything like that from Leclerc... well, aside from admitting that the aerodynamics make the car hard to drive. Was that it?
 
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And just like melting tyres in Canada one year made them think it would be great to artificially create that, this weekends events have spurred them into trying to artificially recreate it. I'm ranking this firmly as another gimmic inserted to artificially cause a set of circumstances that is exciting when unexpected and dull as fuck when the teams can plan for it.

We all know the yank owners are going to come up with something on par with the formula E "fan boost" nonsense at some point, I just hope the teams tell them to fuck off.
 
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And just like melting tyres in Canada one year made them think it would be great to artificially create that, this weekends events have spurred them into trying to artificially recreate it. I'm ranking this firmly as another gimmic inserted to artificially cause a set of circumstances that is exciting when unexpected and dull as fuck when the teams can plan for it.

We all know the yank owners are going to come up with something on par with the formula E "fan boost" nonsense at some point, I just hope the teams tell them to fuck off.
It's them just spitballing, so no need to take it too seriously. It'll get blocked by the usual suspects anyway.

That being said, I am not that hostile towards this and never have been. To me, it's wonderfully archaic and might spice up things a little.
 
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I envision absolutely everyone in Ferrari being fired, drivers, engineers, PR, everyone, even people not in the F1 department (Like James Calado, for example, who drives sportscars for them). Scorched earth would be funny to watch.
Well Mick Schumacher is fast and the son of the greatest driver ever, maybe they should hire him
 
I've sort of written a massive wall of text in response to @RomanesEuntDomus' post, so spoilering that because it's a whole lot, saving you scrolling past it every time.

He's not my favorite driver, but saying he's shit or badmouthing his former performance is silly tbh. Since he joined Ferrari he finished the championship on 2nd place 2 times, and one time each on 3rd and 4th against some pretty severe competition. Last year, he ranked 5th, 24 points behind Leclerc who is (I will readily admit) a very good driver too. Even if Vettel stayed with Ferrari and they closed the gap to Mercedes, I doubt he'd be able to become Champion again, he's too old for that and Leclerc is clearly better than Vettel's performance of the past two years. But the Ferrari Tifosi were always pretty quick to talk badly about a pilot that they feel keeps the team back - no matter what that driver achieved in the past and how objectively awful the car is in that season.

For sure they've gone too far too suddenly, but I do personally hold that Seb was never especially good a driver - not absolutely terrible, but masked in his mediocrity.
That Red Bull he won in was best car on the grid, constantly trying new rules-breaking/pushing features to make the car faster, and it was also more to his liking as a driver (extremely stable in corners, rather like a ground effect car) which made him fantastically quick, and when you have Mark Webber for a teammate you're pretty well certain to win in that situation because Mark was getting older, Seb was obviously the marketable RB Golden Boy (Max now), and Mark I don't feel ever was actually that good.
Seb then leaves when that Red Bull isn't to his liking, despite being built around him, when the other guy (Ricciardo) is faster than him and the team naturally opts to favour the faster driver.
In joining Ferrari he's paired with Kimi, a driver who is not exactly secret in his passiveness, and he is coming in as the less experienced but more accomplished driver, so Ferrari do the only thing they can - pick one car to be the primary car, and run that one to win, which they did.
The result of this is Seb again gets masked by a decent Ferrari which is clearly second fastest overall with him being put in front of the other unless absolutely impossible to do.
Leclerc has then come along, and the same as with Ricciardo has happened somewhat in that he is faster, but even then Ferrari have only this season stopped favouring Seb for both car design and pit priority and yet he was still being beaten by the kid every opportunity he got.
I have held the opinion that Vettel isn't that good for a while, but the Italians only noticing now have taken it to the extreme, or at least the vocal ones on Twitter which I will remind you, is of course the only place to get a balanced, reasoned, and well thought through opinion which is representative of all.

What did Leclerc say that pissed them off?
Afaik, Leclerc went out of his way to take the blame for his crash, but I really can't see how it was a drivers error. He didn't shunt over a curb, he didn't get on slippery ground, dirt or gravel, if anything, he took the turn far less aggressive than some of the other drivers and his tyres should have been warm enough to handle it. The car has atrocious balancing and that's it. It's like the driver has to fight the car in every turn, little wonder Ferrari is shit this season.
After his brake failure, Vettel said that Ferrari is in no position to make a comeback this season and joked about the car, so the Tifosi are butthurt over his mean words, but I didn't hear anything like that from Leclerc... well, aside from admitting that the aerodynamics make the car hard to drive. Was that it?

Leclerc's crash at Monza isn't what has prompted the complaining, his crash I got the impression was a slight moment of over-eager right foot which made an issue with the car arise - because he never counter-steered yet veered left after starting to rotate right.
What Leclerc has done is complain about aspects of the car during the course of race over the radio for most of the season - I think we will agree validly so, inferior power unit and atrocious aerodynamics will get a driver complaining regardless of what car he's in, even beyond F1.
The issue comes from the way Liberty Media have made all of the radio communications publicly available and there are now people who dedicatedly upload pieces of radio which FOM probably won't upload to the F1 channel on YouTube, which makes even when trying to frame it as him stating fact - for an example (which I don't think has happened, but demonstrates the sort of statement) I think this gear box is too long, we're losing time on acceleration - as him moaning and whining. People I talk to are starting to immediately leap to the conclusion of oh he's just crying about the car again and I suspect it's the same with the Italian Twitter lot.
The issue comes where the diehards are saying he should be fired because he's criticising a Ferrari, which is flat out absurd.
The more reasonable people - although not too much more, it is Twitter remember -are just wanting him to stop doing it publicly (which officially the radio communications aren't public, but obviously are) because it, in their view, doesn't benefit the team, doesn't improve the car, and makes them sad personally because it proves to them that their beloved red car - which to quote F1's official newsletter from Spa weekend is 'all horse, no power' (still a great line) - is terrible and they don't like it being that way.

Well Mick Schumacher is fast and the son of the greatest driver ever, maybe they should hire him

Well no, because if they're going proper nuclear option all the Ferrari young drivers also getting fired, which includes Schumacher's both (Mick and David), Ilott, and a handful of others.
To the idea of hiring him, you may joke but I legitimately still expect the second there's an Alfa seat available, either publicly or just internally with the Ferrari program, Mick Schumacher will be put in there because of who his dad is, not entirely on his own merit.
I don't think Mick is quick enough yet, but don't let that stop simple-mindedness, I believe it was Paul Di Resta who when commentating on a practice session was asked if he could see Mick in the car because of his surname and answered quite simply Yes with no follow up until he was clearly -although the broadcast could not hear it - encouraged by a producer to expand on the statement to fill dead air.
There might not be many better options to stick in that Alfa seat right this moment, sure, but I think Mick will be rushed into it the second his license will allow him and I don't think he'd be ready for that and he'll suffer for it.
 
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There might not be many better options to stick in that Alfa seat right this moment, sure, but I think Mick will be rushed into it the second his license will allow him and I don't think he'd be ready for that and he'll suffer for it.
The Fia will push for Mick. they need a Schumacher to boost viewership. its realy realy bad in germany right now(the biggest market). Its easyer than rolling back all the stupid regulations...
 
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The Fia will push for Mick. they need a Schumacher to boost viewership. its realy realy bad in germany right now(the biggest market). Its easyer than rolling back all the stupid regulations...
It doesn't require the FIA to push him through, Ferrari are extremely fond of nepotism, you just need to look at their young driver programs to see that - the surnames there are clearly because dad said I could drive a Ferrari: Giuliano Alesi, Mick Schumacher, Enzo Fittipaldi, Arthur Leclerc (Not Charles' son, making him the exception), they even took Sebastian Montoya for one season because JPM is a known name.

However unlike every other development system, Ferrari don't keep their drivers around long enough to find out, nor do they care for anything other than F1, and nor do they even offer them a permanent role as test/reserve driver, former Ferrari academy drivers are:
Mirko Bortolotti they had on the books for one season only to drop him for bad performance, which then landed him a factory Lambourghini drive which lead to him qualifying on pole a couple years ago for Bathurst 12H, and he then got promoted to Audi factory where he remains doing very well indeed.
They had Perez, who got scooped up my McLaren because Ferrari weren't giving him a chance beyond two years in the Sauber (2012 being his last year there).
Raffaele Marciello, they had him on the books for several years, bringing him all the way to GP2 but because he didn't win in GP2 after two years they dropped him, and he's now a factory driver in GT racing for Mercedes, constantly fighting for top 5 in GT World Challenge Europe and finished 2nd in his only attempt at Bathurst 12H.
 
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Ferrari are extremely fond of nepotism, you just need to look at their young driver programs to see that - the surnames there are clearly because dad said I could drive a Ferrari: Giuliano Alesi, Mick Schumacher, Enzo Fittipaldi, Arthur Leclerc (Not Charles' son, making him the exception), they even took Sebastian Montoya for one season because JPM is a known name.
Schumacher is the only name to get people watching. or they have to go back to V10 if not V12---
The numbers are in decline everywhere, germany is hit realy hard, nobody cares anymore because its to boring.
 
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Schumacher is the only name to get people watching. or they have to go back to V10 if not V12---
The numbers are in decline everywhere, germany is hit realy hard, nobody cares anymore because its to boring.

The numbers are in decline for an abundance of reasons though: F1 is a technology and engineering series, which means that you're almost always going to have an outright dominant team, which makes the racing less entertaining when the broadcast is only focussed on the top positions which creates this image of terrible/lacking racing, and since F1 is the peak normie series to be watched the casual viewer is the majority of eyes you get on it.
Which means, casual viewers are disinterested by seeing one guy/team win it all unless there's a forced sense of nationalism making you care - for example my aunt doesn't actually watch any of the races, doesn't follow any other racing at all, but as soon as the headline says Lewis won she really cares because he's from Britain, and then immediately goes on about how much of an absolute arse he is.
With the casual viewers in mind, making the sport completely behind a paywall and making exclusivity deals which harms F1's own streaming property you lose that audience, again using my aunt as the example if the race is on the BBC or Channel 4 she'll watch it, but she doesn't care enough to pay for the Sky Sports F1 package because it's not worth the money for the complete lack of anything else on that channel.
Another thing with the ailing viewership is that motorsport isn't cool anymore, generally speaking, F1 has gone too far in trying to push technology to have relevance to common cars anymore, NASCAR for a counter example has engines which Ford don't care to promote anymore because they're out of date, and a spec of car which is disliked by anyone who has watched a previous generation, WRC can't sell TV rights because it's too difficult to follow and it's too much time on air for it to be worth the money unless you dedicate a channel to it which leads once more to a paywall happening, or extreme advertising interruption.
The only ones which are doing well are the entertaining ones and/or free to view ones, Le Mans gets broadcast free on Eurosport every year with advertising interruption so gets viewers because it's free, all of the SRO's racing is growing in popularity amongst younger audiences - which we have to accept is the future, us older bastards are going to die sooner than them - because it's all free to watch on YouTube making it unbelievably accessible, IMSA okay you have to go to their streaming platform to watch it live but they re-up everything to YouTube afterwards which makes it again free and accessible.
A surname isn't going to suddenly make everyone watch again, when the viewing is still behind paywalls, and they keep upping the cost for all of the broadcasters to keep their exclusivity which in turn ups the subscription fee for us viewers so they can make more money.
 
Concerning Vettel, I disagree, it puts all his accomplishments at the hands of his cars and at least partially at the hands of supposedly even less competent drivers. I feel it's unfair to call an accomplished driver like Vettel mediocre when he's been a top 5 driver consistently throughout his career. Not the best, I agree, but mediocre and all his successes based solely on his cars? Come on.

Schumacher is the only name to get people watching. or they have to go back to V10 if not V12---
The numbers are in decline everywhere, germany is hit realy hard, nobody cares anymore because its to boring.
Formula 1 used to be the biggest motor sport in Germany with 2 races and (at its peak) 4 German drivers. Now we have 1 driver on his last stint before his career ends, only one race (rip Nürburgring) and interest ist vaning hard. Broadcasting rights in Germany have been with RTL for more than 3 decades but will switch to pay TV come next year, god knows who is going to pay money to watch F1, but here we are.

A surname isn't going to suddenly make everyone watch again, when the viewing is still behind paywalls, and they keep upping the cost for all of the broadcasters to keep their exclusivity which in turn ups the subscription fee for us viewers so they can make more money.
The surname Schumacher would generate some buzz in the beginning, but if Mick can't deliver, that interest would be gone very quickly. I get the feeling that German fans are quick to dismiss a driver that only got into F1 for his name and nostalgia for the name won't keep them around. So, what I am saying is, I agree. In the long run, it won't do much, but it might make F1 bounce back a tiny bit for a short time. Kind of like a dead cat bounce.

Also Ferrari might be one of the most idiotic teams out there. There's worse teams, but given Ferrari's background and the amount of money they have, it is astounding how much they struggle to put together a decent car this season... but that's not even the worst part. You've summed up their inability to organize their driver's pool very nicely. Ferrari wants results now Now NOW NOW and they have no patience, so they waste promising drivers, who continue to become better drivers in other teams. The way how they treated Kimi and the way how they treat Vettel now is symptomatic of their inability to treat their drivers right.
 
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Also Ferrari might be one of the most idiotic teams out there. There's worse teams, but given Ferrari's background and the amount of money they have, it is astounding how much they struggle to put together a decent car this season... but that's not even the worst part. You've summed up their inability to organize their driver's pool very nicely. Ferrari wants results now Now NOW NOW and they have no patience, so they waste promising drivers, who continue to become better drivers in other teams. The way how they treated Kimi and the way how they treat Vettel now is symptomatic of their inability to treat their drivers right.
Ferrari theme:
 
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Concerning Vettel, I disagree, it puts all his accomplishments at the hands of his cars and at least partially at the hands of even less competent drivers. I feel it's unfair to call an accomplished driver like Vettel mediocre when he's been a top 5 driver consistently throughout his career. Not the best, I agree, but mediocre and all his successes based solely on his cars? Come on.

But he hasn't been in a lesser car and out-performed it, which leads me to presume he's not actually that good.
Lewis did very good in a lacking Mclaren in that one year the Merc was bad, Alonso performed well in a Ferrari and contested the 2012 season despite the car being terrible according to Domenicalli and also Alonso himself, Kimi made that Lotus win a race in Bahrain all that time ago, the list of examples of someone in inferior equipment doing well during Seb's career goes on - and yet he can't seem to be able to do that.
That red bull was the perfect car for him, and he shone in that and I am sure that if you put a driver equal to him in that same car he would have won I don't deny that, but the moment the car isn't what he likes, he cannot get ahold of it, his racecraft has always been poor, think Istanbul with Webber, and Brazil last year with Charles to name but two, and he continues to show no real skill or ability in the car despite being one of the more experienced driver, meanwhile old man Kimi is still managing to show glimpses (I'm not going to argue he's still got it, mind), Perez is still always there or thereabouts and again the list continues.
The only conclusion I can come to is he's either mediocre his whole career and had the right equipment at just the right time, or he was very good for a very short period of time and just plummeted suddenly.

The surname Schumacher would generate some buzz in the beginning, but if Mick can't deliver, that interest would be gone very quickly. I get the feeling that German fans are quick to dismiss a driver that only got into F1 for his name and nostalgia for the name won't keep them around.
...
given Ferrari's background and the amount of money they have, it is astounding how much they struggle to put together a decent car this season... but that's not even the worst part. You've summed up their inability to organize their driver's pool very nicely. Ferrari wants results now Now NOW NOW and they have no patience, so they waste promising drivers, who continue to become better drivers in other teams. The way how they treated Kimi and the way how they treat Vettel now is symptomatic of their inability to treat their drivers right.
I don't even think the surname will generate as much buzz as everyone is expecting, because before you had to actually care enough to look into who was up-and-coming to find out who might be the next Hill, Schumacher, Prost, whatever.
Whereas now with how F1, 2, and 3 are so conglomorated now and intertwined any excitement for Schumacher has already been made and had, and his lacking performance in F3 leads me to believe he's being rushed through the system because of his surname (and I wish to add I don't think it's him pushing himself with the classic do you know who my dad is), he had lacking performance at the start of F2 this year and whilst the results on paper since seem alright he hasn't been much racing for them beyond the first couple of laps which proves nothing of him.
The excitement for him was had the moment all the media pounced on him senselessly because they wanted to be able to say they could interview a Schumacher, not because he was a really quick and cool upcoming prospect and/or a driver with a story to tell like Billy Monger for example.
He might get a handful of new/returning people to discuss the first couple of races, but I very much expect it would stay at that, discuss, unless as you say he delivers bloody quickly then there may be a handful more eyes on the series, but even then it won't be enough to matter substantially I believe.
 
The numbers are in decline for an abundance of reasons though: F1 is a technology and engineering series, which means that you're almost always going to have an outright dominant team, which makes the racing less entertaining when the broadcast is only focussed on the top positions which creates this image of terrible/lacking racing, and since F1 is the peak normie series to be watched the casual viewer is the majority of eyes you get on it.

The main problem with current F1 is mainly that of there's no real way to stop a snowball effect of a team getting their engine right in 2014 and then proceeding to ride that high to 2020. It's also a phenominally expensive sport which already dissuaded most manufacturers away from it after the 2008 recession and everyone's sponsorship money is tight unless you're an energy drink company or an oil company.

With the casual viewers in mind, making the sport completely behind a paywall and making exclusivity deals which harms F1's own streaming property you lose that audience, again using my aunt as the example if the race is on the BBC or Channel 4 she'll watch it, but she doesn't care enough to pay for the Sky Sports F1 package because it's not worth the money for the complete lack of anything else on that channel.

This above all else is why F1 has been losing it's ground over the past 15 years, especially in countries where it's either pay channels or sketchy web streams. People simply stopped caring about the sport after they went to the pay channels in spite of a national hero like Kimi Räikkönen being a constant presence. It also helps ensure that the sponsorships are less valuable in all 20 of the cars on the grid, but especially the ones without any manufacturer backing.

Another thing with the ailing viewership is that motorsport isn't cool anymore, generally speaking, F1 has gone too far in trying to push technology to have relevance to common cars anymore, NASCAR for a counter example has engines which Ford don't care to promote anymore because they're out of date, and a spec of car which is disliked by anyone who has watched a previous generation, WRC can't sell TV rights because it's too difficult to follow and it's too much time on air for it to be worth the money unless you dedicate a channel to it which leads once more to a paywall happening, or extreme advertising interruption.

People don't come to watch F1 because they're "related to common cars" since this whole hybrid power unit thing was specifically created to do so and look how well it went over the actual fans of the sport. They want the absolute fastest machinery on 4 wheels and don't care what the tech is as long as it looks and sounds out of this world. They want the best of the best in the best cars with tight competition and top tier excitement.

I don't know much about NASCAR but I can def say that the 2008 recession was the thing that put WRC to tail-spin, thanks to two very successful and popular manufacturer teams leaving, thus resulting in there only being Citroen outspending everybody and having Seb Löeb, making the sport very boring because he always won and never ran into any problems ever while M-Sport clung on in spite of them having far less money to work with. VW was briefly involved but this program got axed when Dieselgate happened. Right now, the main problem for WRC in particular is that they have fuck-all money and manufacturers don't even bother to pretend that you can buy a road-legal version of these cars which is one of the major reasons why Subaru and Mitsubishi were so popular back in the day. There also was the deaths of Richard Burns and Colin McRae that helped bury this sport in the eyes of the anglosphere fanbases. And because they plan on adding hybrid systems to the WRC spec as a mandatory component, I fully expect this series to die within this decade simply because it got too expensive to compete in and too predictable to watch.
 
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