Game of Thrones Thread

Ideally, the sixth and seventh books should see GRRM trying to unite and conclude several different plotlines and set up the final conflict, but he's either incapable or unwilling to do that. I think the show's ending is partially based on his ending, as it does have all the elements and themes of his subversive narrative, albeit rushed to meet an artificial deadline. (In war, there are no good guys, one side's hero is another side's villain, the death caused by war outweighs all the potential good it may cause, etc..) So yeah, part of his hesitance may be due to the show being so poorly-received when it adapted his ending. If D&D had their way, Jon Snow and Dany would just win with their trademark generic good-guy talk, and they'd have just ended up mating on the Iron Throne after the deaths of Cersei and the Night King.
I sincerely believe King Bran is something Martin conceived of, and is not a D&D invention precisely because D&D hated the magic of the series and minimized it as much as possible. That said, getting a boy wizard to rule Westeros requires all other competitors be dead or out of the running and the country itself reduced to some sort of post apocalyptic state.

Thing is, Bran may be the central character(he is the first POV after the prologue) but he isn't remotely the most popular or interesting.

That's a big problem. He kept piling on plotline after plotline. There's also the Euron plotline to add to all that mess. The problem with GRRM was that there was no one to reign him in and force him to focus. It's the same problem George Lucas had when during the time when he was writing the Prequels, there was no one to tell him "no". The difference is that Lucas had an outline that he stuck to, which at least allowed him to end the Prequels on a hopeful note, whereas GRRM is just going around his world, following random plotlines, adding to the bloat of the story when he should be chopping things down and getting things to a close.

Like say, whey not have Stannis and Lady Stoneheart join forces with Petyr Baelish and the forces of the Vale? You'd unite three separate plotlines into one, and the three of them have different reasons for wanting to see the Lannisters fall: Stannis has honor, Stoneheart has vengeance, the forces of the Vale hate the Lannisters for supposedly killing Jon Arryn, and Littlefinger's a greedy little shit. That's what I'd do in his position to cut down on the fat and set up a coherent ending.
My general prediction(for Winds).

Stannis wins at Winterfell but Rickon is found and the North more or less deserts him at his moment of triumph. Jon is also resurrected meaning Mel loses faith in him.
Aegon smashes Mace Tyrell before the walls of Storm's End and King's Landing falls, Tommen and Myrcella die in rapid succession but Cersei flees.
Euron blows up Oldtown but Victarion escapes his control. He may or may not get a dragon.
Dany gets the Dothraki(the scene in the show is pretty similar to a vision Dany has in the books) and goes west, Tyrion and the rest of the Mereen cast head west along a separate route, they meet at the Narrow Sea-Illyrio probably dies at the end.
LSH infiltrates Riverrun(with Jaimie forced to help her) and massacres the Lannisters and Freys thus throwing the Riverlands into a revolt and giving the Vale an opening to intervene.
Stannis dies at the end-Shireen is sacrificed just as the Wall falls.
Dany makes for Westeros, Sansa heads North as does Arya, Bran escapes the cave, "hold the door happens", Tyrion and Dany meet, Cersei goes to Casterly Rock and Jaimie probably heads north. Not sure about LSH or Sam or where some of the other characters will be at the end of Winds.

^at least that's my general guess as to what Winds will be like. Not that it matters as its not coming out.


That pressure used to exist, especially after the last season of the show crashed and burned, but now, there's just apathy. No one cares anymore, outside of the diehards who still think that Martin is some kind of 4D-chess player when really, he's the lesser, hippie-modernist version of Luo Guanzhong or William Shakespeare, nowhere near the literary genius of Tolkien, or those other two authors.
Yeah his legacy is doomed. And that has to have sapped his motivation even more.
 
Yeah his legacy is doomed. And that has to have sapped his motivation even more.
Why do something when you know it will be shat on and not live up to ten years of hype? Especially when you have enough money to buy your own space program and castle full of sex slaves. Some ghostwriter will probably finish the whole thing after GRRM's death and that will be the "official" ending.
 
I sincerely believe King Bran is something Martin conceived of, and is not a D&D invention precisely because D&D hated the magic of the series and minimized it as much as possible. That said, getting a boy wizard to rule Westeros requires all other competitors be dead or out of the running and the country itself reduced to some sort of post apocalyptic state.

Thing is, Bran may be the central character(he is the first POV after the prologue) but he isn't remotely the most popular or interesting.
This King Bran thing is so nonsensical to me that I simply refuse anyone without severe braindamage could come up with that, thus I choose to believe that it was concocted by Dumb and Dumber. I can't even imagine someone who would write something as captivating as the early books of ASOIAF and think King Bran would be a good idea.
King Moon Boy would be a better plot.
 
This King Bran thing is so nonsensical to me that I simply refuse anyone without severe braindamage could come up with that, thus I choose to believe that it was concocted by Dumb and Dumber. I can't even imagine someone who would write something as captivating as the early books of ASOIAF and think King Bran would be a good idea.
King Moon Boy would be a better plot.
D&D wanted to kill Bran and martin explicitly told them no.
 
D&D wanted to kill Bran and martin explicitly told them no.
And then D&D went "hey, let's do shit no one expected. That's peak writing right there!" and the whole show literally turned into an ad-libs extravaganza.
"The Night King is killed by Arya , who kills him by Naruto-running ."
In the same vein, they just went through the bucket of left-over characters and picked whoever was the most ridiculous to become King. It's a shame they didn't go with Tormund Giantsbane tbh.

Bran has something in the endgame of the novels, that's for sure, but whatever it is, being King is not in that stack of cards.
 
Jon being similar to Aemon fits his character, (that is rejecting the throne to prevent war), Dany and Aegon are both doomed. Question is who if not Bran? Tyrion? The man is reviled in Westeros and if he doesn’t die or go to the wall-his only hope is some sort of pardon from whoever becomes king. Sansa? I could see her ruling the north, vale and river lands but I don’t think she is going to be queen of Westeros.

Stannis, Euron and the Lannisters are also all going to be knocked out when the dust settles.
 
Bran has something in the endgame of the novels, that's for sure, but whatever it is, being King is not in that stack of cards.

I get the feeling Bran is just going to outlive everyone or something because he's a tree wizard or whatever now, and D&D just took it in the most retarded way possible.

Either that, or he's the last one alive over a completely decimated and ruined kingdom, and they turned that into "he becomes king" because they (or HBO most likely) didn't want to destroy everything.
 
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Jon being similar to Aemon fits his character, (that is rejecting the throne to prevent war), Dany and Aegon are both doomed. Question is who if not Bran? Tyrion? The man is reviled in Westeros and if he doesn’t die or go to the wall-his only hope is some sort of pardon from whoever becomes king. Sansa? I could see her ruling the north, vale and river lands but I don’t think she is going to be queen of Westeros.

Stannis, Euron and the Lannisters are also all going to be knocked out when the dust settles.
I expect Jon and Dany to end up on the throne, possibly together with Tyrion, if it turns out that Tyrion is indeed not Tywin's son but rather Aerys'.
There's this whole "The dragon has three heads" business after all.

I expect Bran to be the new three-eyed crow or whatever and be more of a mythical/mystical figure. His entire plot is about transcending worldly things, so him becoming a mundane ruler is anathema to that whole shishkabibble. He might as well become the High Septon for all sense it would make.
 
I expect Jon and Dany to end up on the throne, possibly together with Tyrion, if it turns out that Tyrion is indeed not Tywin's son but rather Aerys'.
There's this whole "The dragon has three heads" business after all.

I expect Bran to be the new three-eyed crow or whatever and be more of a mythical/mystical figure. His entire plot is about transcending worldly things, so him becoming a mundane ruler is anathema to that whole shishkabibble. He might as well become the High Septon for all sense it would make.
Bran’s mentor is the very worldly Bloodraven tho.

Dany is gonna die, whether Jon kills her or not is debatable but she isn’t gonna live to the end of Dream. Jon will likely reject the throne, or he might reign for a day and then abdicate.

The Targaryen dynasty is doomed. And Martin isn’t going to a do conventional “the good guys rule ever after”(e.g. Jon and Dany).

If not bran, I’d say Tyrion and Sansa and maybe Willas Tyrell and people like Samwell Tarly-not kings but ruling figures.
 
Bran’s mentor is the very worldly Bloodraven tho.
Dude's a living carcass hiding in a hole full of wood elf creatures while doing some weird telepathy/soul traveling shtick. How is that "worldly"? To me, that is pretty off the shelf "otherworldly" stuff right there.
Dany is gonna die, whether Jon kills her or not is debatable but she isn’t gonna live to the end of Dream.
Where's that "Dany will die" thing coming from?
 
Dude's a living carcass hiding in a hole full of wood elf creatures while doing some weird telepathy/soul traveling shtick. How is that "worldly"? To me, that is pretty off the shelf "otherworldly" stuff right there.
He also was hand of the king and ran a police state less than a century before the events of the series. Sure he used magic(or was rumored to) but Bloodraven isn’t divorced from Westerosi politics, remember why he got exiled -killing his Blackfyre nephews. The mysticism and politics need not be separated. They aren’t with Bloodraven and why should they be with Bran?


Where's that "Dany will die" thing coming from?
Some of the visions-a blue rose under the wall, the sound of a wolf(in dance), and three betrayals(at least one that has not yet happened). Dany is not destined for a life of peace under the red door.
 
He also was hand of the king and ran a police state less than a century before the events of the series. Sure he used magic(or was rumored to) but Bloodraven isn’t divorced from Westerosi politics, remember why he got exiled -killing his Blackfyre nephews.
His backstory is literally him leaving behind his mundane position and becoming the three-eyed raven. That is exactly what has happened to Bran. He was supposed to become a knight and serve his brothers, his accident left him a cripple and he now transcends his original mundane fate.
The mysticism and politics need not be separated. They aren’t with Bloodraven and why should they be with Bran?
They so clearly are seperated with the three eyed raven. Or does he rule the Nightswatch/King's Landing from inside his little cave? I don't think so.
 
I sincerely believe King Bran is something Martin conceived of, and is not a D&D invention precisely because D&D hated the magic of the series and minimized it as much as possible. That said, getting a boy wizard to rule Westeros requires all other competitors be dead or out of the running and the country itself reduced to some sort of post apocalyptic state.

Thing is, Bran may be the central character(he is the first POV after the prologue) but he isn't remotely the most popular or interesting.
This King Bran thing is so nonsensical to me that I simply refuse anyone without severe braindamage could come up with that, thus I choose to believe that it was concocted by Dumb and Dumber. I can't even imagine someone who would write something as captivating as the early books of ASOIAF and think King Bran would be a good idea.
King Moon Boy would be a better plot.
I actually could understand the plot point of King Bran. Martin did write about hive-minds in the past, and medieval nobles would actually prefer putting a weak king on the throne rather than a strong or clever one. Putting in a king who has psychedelic visions and who's bound to a wheelchair gives the nobles more freedom and power than if they put in someone who's strong or wise, because said king would likely boss them around, while Bran is too busy peering into God knows where to butt in on the nobles' business.

My general prediction(for Winds).

Stannis wins at Winterfell but Rickon is found and the North more or less deserts him at his moment of triumph. Jon is also resurrected meaning Mel loses faith in him.
Aegon smashes Mace Tyrell before the walls of Storm's End and King's Landing falls, Tommen and Myrcella die in rapid succession but Cersei flees.
Euron blows up Oldtown but Victarion escapes his control. He may or may not get a dragon.
Dany gets the Dothraki(the scene in the show is pretty similar to a vision Dany has in the books) and goes west, Tyrion and the rest of the Mereen cast head west along a separate route, they meet at the Narrow Sea-Illyrio probably dies at the end.
LSH infiltrates Riverrun(with Jaimie forced to help her) and massacres the Lannisters and Freys thus throwing the Riverlands into a revolt and giving the Vale an opening to intervene.
Stannis dies at the end-Shireen is sacrificed just as the Wall falls.
Dany makes for Westeros, Sansa heads North as does Arya, Bran escapes the cave, "hold the door happens", Tyrion and Dany meet, Cersei goes to Casterly Rock and Jaimie probably heads north. Not sure about LSH or Sam or where some of the other characters will be at the end of Winds.

^at least that's my general guess as to what Winds will be like. Not that it matters as its not coming out.
It's obviously not coming out. But even if it does, interest in the series would be at such an all-time low, only the diehard book purists will care.

Yeah his legacy is doomed. And that has to have sapped his motivation even more.
The least I'd have done in his place is finish off the story with some generic eagerness. But he's faced with a dilemma for the ending: if GRRM gives the story a happy ending, the edgelords who fell in love with the series due to its "grimdark realism" would walk away, whereas if the ending is depressing, the average normie book fan would just see the whole series as pointless. If he gives a sad, but hopeful ending, then neither side would be truly satisfied, and you'll be left with an ending that pleases no one.
 
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I'm sure its been said before but Im still mad at how John Snow was treated at the season finale. All this built up to have his true heritage finally revealed only for it end to up to be a bunch of nothing really saps the joy out of rewatching the show. All he did was be a passive cuck who could only say the words, "My queen" or "I don't want it" and just watch as everyone else gets their arc completed. He didn't even get to fight the Night King, when it was being set up that the two were at least going to have some epic battle. Instead he spent the whole long night running around from the white walkers and yelling out a dead dragon. :lol:

And in the end he's forced to kill the one he loved and be sent back to the night's watch. Talk about a fate worse than death.
 
Question is who if not Bran?
Do you doubt The Prince of Dorne?

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I expect Jon and Dany to end up on the throne, possibly together with Tyrion, if it turns out that Tyrion is indeed not Tywin's son but rather Aerys'.
There's this whole "The dragon has three heads" business after all.

I expect Bran to be the new three-eyed crow or whatever and be more of a mythical/mystical figure. His entire plot is about transcending worldly things, so him becoming a mundane ruler is anathema to that whole shishkabibble. He might as well become the High Septon for all sense it would make.
I will never understand the "Tyrion is a secret Targ" theory. Both for the book themes and the timeline, if there are any Lannisters who are Aerys' progeny it's the incestuous duo who were born shortly after he took liberties with their mother at Tywin's wedding, not the one who is totally Tywin but malformed.
Genna Lannister had it completely correct when she told Jaime that Tyrion was the new Tywin, not him or Cersei.
 
I will never understand the "Tyrion is a secret Targ" theory. Both for the book themes and the timeline, if there are any Lannisters who are Aerys' progeny it's the incestuous duo who were born shortly after he took liberties with their mother at Tywin's wedding, not the one who is totally Tywin but malformed.
Genna Lannister had it completely correct when she told Jaime that Tyrion was the new Tywin, not him or Cersei.
There's a few bits and pieces, overall just grasping at straws tbh.

Tyrion's hair is paler than that of the Lannisters, his mismatched eyes might also tie into that. Tywin, when Tyrion kills him, says that Tyrion is not his son, and you might take it literally (there's a scene in GoT where Tywin yells at Tyrion that he can't disown him, cause he can't prove that he's not his, too). Killing family members is a big no-no in ASOIAF, so if it turns out that Tywin was not Tyrion's father, he'd be absolved of his patricide. Tyrion had a fascination with Dragons from his childhood days onwards. The timeframe would fit as well, since Tyrion was born roughly a year after Joanna was in KL during some festivity, during which Aerys made some rather suggestive remarks about her breasts. Stuff like that.

Yeah. It's weak, I'll admit, but not entirely off the table.
 
Tyrion is Tywin writ small. Recall in the books Tyrion is a bad guy(well martin said he was). Thematically Tyrion’s relationship with and parallels to his father are the heart of his character.

There is a passage, I think it’s Moqorro prophesies Tyrion will play a major role in the upcoming dance of dragons, not that he is a dragon, but he will be in their midst snarling or something to that effect.

I’m sort of hoping that we’ll get some sort Tyrion-Cersei war in the westerlands-if dream ever comes out.
 
Now I have never written a book before, so I won't judge him, but if there's just too much plot to wrap up why stick to two books? Wasn't the series originally planned to be 5 books anyway? If he writes non-filler stuff for 4 books for example he could naturally tie everything up and give extra content to his fans. Granted this question is a decade late, but still.
 
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