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Karl and Sinistral Rifleman posted a new video comparing a red dot versus bead sights on shotguns. They perform this test in the fucking stupidest way possible by comparing a sxs firing slugs against a pump gun with a red dot at 50 yards against a spinner target.

Red dots on defensive shotguns are unnecessary and dumb. Bad guy enter home. Put bead on center mass. Pull trigger. Hire cleaners.
 
Still Anonymous For This said:
Karl and Sinistral Rifleman posted a new video comparing a red dot versus bead sights on shotguns. They perform this test in the fucking stupidest way possible by comparing a sxs firing slugs against a pump gun with a red dot at 50 yards against a spinner target.

Red dots on defensive shotguns are unnecessary and dumb. Bad guy enter home. Put bead on center mass. Pull trigger. Hire cleaners.
Click to expand...
You laugh, but if there were spinners in your house who would be laughing then?!
 
Still Anonymous For This said:
Karl and Sinistral Rifleman posted a new video comparing a red dot versus bead sights on shotguns. They perform this test in the fucking stupidest way possible by comparing a sxs firing slugs against a pump gun with a red dot at 50 yards against a spinner target.

Red dots on defensive shotguns are unnecessary and dumb. Bad guy enter home. Put bead on center mass. Pull trigger. Hire cleaners.
Click to expand...

Watch the previous video where we do this with bird shot at 7-10 yards perhaps before sperging out?


There’s a buckshot one that’ll get posted at some point.

The spinner challenges are just seeing if it can be done with a particular firearm and sighting system. They’re not scientific tests. The patrons request the firearm or ammo type. We have Mosin, VP-70, P90, and some others already filmed.
 
I don't get what the argument is here. Sure, bead sights work just fine at point-blank range, but so does holding the stock under your armpit and aiming by zen if you're really that fucking close. With that in mind, would I refuse a red dot? No, I wouldn't. If I have time to aim in that sort of situation, I know I personally pick up targets faster with a red dot compared to bead sights.
 
Corn Flakes said:
I don't get what the argument is here. Sure, bead sights work just fine at point-blank range, but so does holding the stock under your armpit and aiming by zen if you're really that fucking close. With that in mind, would I refuse a red dot? No, I wouldn't. If I have time to aim in that sort of situation, I know I personally pick up targets faster with a red dot compared to bead sights.
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There's a certain amount of "might as well put a good sight on it", but some of the guys I know who shoot clay targets competitively remove even the beads from their guns.
Red dot I'd think would be great for turkey hunting... at least that's where I first saw them marketed. Home defense it's probably unneeded, but if it's not in the way, throw it on.
 
SinistralRifleman said:
Watch the previous video where we do this with bird shot at 7-10 yards perhaps before sperging out?


There’s a buckshot one that’ll get posted at some point.

The spinner challenges are just seeing if it can be done with a particular firearm and sighting system. They’re not scientific tests. The patrons request the firearm or ammo type. We have Mosin, VP-70, P90, and some others already filmed.
Click to expand...

Karl literally says people who say irons (a bead in this case) on shotguns are wrong. You developed a nonsensical test. If the point was just to fuck around, that’s awesome, but Karl is trying to pass this off as empirical data when it isn’t. The fact that, of course a sxs would inherently be far less accurate than a pump gun, is never brought up by either of you in the video and you’re only downplaying it now after everyone has brought it up, because of-fucking-course it had an affect on the results.

61853C90-D1FC-4A96-BF0D-093DB9672DFB.jpeg

>obviously misses to the left when firing the left barrel
>obviously missses to the right when firing the right barrel
>”I know how to pattern this shotgun, it being a SxS has nothing to do with it!”

Corn Flakes said:
I don't get what the argument is here. Sure, bead sights work just fine at point-blank range, but so does holding the stock under your armpit and aiming by zen if you're really that fucking close. With that in mind, would I refuse a red dot? No, I wouldn't. If I have time to aim in that sort of situation, I know I personally pick up targets faster with a red dot compared to bead sights.
Click to expand...

I personally find putting red dots on defensive shotguns to be a waste of money and time. A good cheek weld and the bead works fine. You’re not lining up sights like a rifle and, if dark, you can still pick up the bead from whatever white light you’re using.

I’m probably being overly critical of people who tacticalize a home defense shotgun, but I can at least understand why someone might want to put a red dot on one: at least they’re not putting rifle sights on them.
 
Still Anonymous For This said:
Karl literally says people who say irons (a bead in this case) on shotguns are wrong. You developed a nonsensical test. If the point was just to fuck around, that’s awesome, but Karl is trying to pass this off as empirical data when it isn’t. The fact that, of course a sxs would inherently be far less accurate than a pump gun, is never brought up by either of you in the video and you’re only downplaying it now after everyone has brought it up, because of-fucking-course it had an affect on the results.

View attachment 3202768
>obviously misses to the left when firing the left barrel
>obviously missses to the right when firing the right barrel
>”I know how to pattern this shotgun, it being a SxS has nothing to do with it!”
Click to expand...

The entire series of these is called “Spinner Challenge”. We open the video talking about that. Most of the dialogue is about engaging the spinner and the circumstances I’ve engaged them under at matches. You’re fixating on one sentence out of the entire video. People regularly say red dots on shotguns are a disadvantage or slower. Those people are full of shit

Bead sights whether on double or a single barrel are not good enough to reliably hit a spinner at 50 yards with a shotgun. The plates are 8” and 10” across. A man sized target at 50 yards, sure I’ve done that. I’ve never seen anyone reliably rotate spinners with bead sights with slugs.

I’ll also take rifle sights or ghost rings over a bead because they give me the option of using more sight information or less sight information depending on target size and distance. Using either with both eyes open is the same as using a bead. So much fuddlore surrounding this shit.
 
SinistralRifleman said:
I’ll also take rifle sights or ghost rings over a bead because they give me the option of using more sight information or less sight information depending on target size and distance. Using either with both eyes open is the same as using a bead. So much fuddlore surrounding this shit.
Click to expand...

Today I learned that Clint Smith is a fudd.
 
I do think there could be interesting data that you could get from a spinner challenge. But that would be too much effort ever since Ian left.

The problem with Karl's content and fanbase is no matter how lighthearted; now there will be 20,000 idiots on Reddit and Facebook discounting bead sights on his behalf. Just like the "polymer is superior" meme, cruiser/shockwave shotguns are pointless, etc. etc.
 
SinistralRifleman said:
The entire series of these is called “Spinner Challenge”. We open the video talking about that. Most of the dialogue is about engaging the spinner and the circumstances I’ve engaged them under at matches. You’re fixating on one sentence out of the entire video. People regularly say red dots on shotguns are a disadvantage or slower. Those people are full of shit

Bead sights whether on double or a single barrel are not good enough to reliably hit a spinner at 50 yards with a shotgun. The plates are 8” and 10” across. A man sized target at 50 yards, sure I’ve done that. I’ve never seen anyone reliably rotate spinners with bead sights with slugs.

I’ll also take rifle sights or ghost rings over a bead because they give me the option of using more sight information or less sight information depending on target size and distance. Using either with both eyes open is the same as using a bead. So much fuddlore surrounding this shit.
Click to expand...
1: Spinner targets are gimmicks and gay
2: Why are you trying to hit a spinner at 50 yards with a shotgun? Why are other people trying to hit spinners at 50 yards with shotguns? Why would you reliably want to do that? Dumb.
3: "Using either with both eyes open is the same as using a bead" ???????
 
Akran said:
1: Spinner targets are gimmicks and gay
2: Why are you trying to hit a spinner at 50 yards with a shotgun? Why are other people trying to hit spinners at 50 yards with shotguns? Why would you reliably want to do that? Dumb.
3: "Using either with both eyes open is the same as using a bead" ???????
Click to expand...

1) universally people who say that suck at them. It’s a target that requires patience, consistent accuracy, and timing, and has basically no reset.

2) many major 3 gun matches I’ve attended over the years have used this as a shotgun slug target at 50-75 yards. It’s a shooting challenge that pushes the capabilities of the shooter and the gun. At any given match there’s challenge that are stupid and impractical. Even if you feel that way about them you better be competent at them if you want to place well. That’s why.

3) yes, you ignore the rear sight as it ghosts out and the front sight functions as a bead. This works even better with fiber optics or high viz front sights.

That’s what I’m doing for all the moving target engagements here https://youtu.be/ZgR39R3LGuU
 
Still Anonymous For This said:
They perform this test in the fucking stupidest way possible by comparing a sxs firing slugs against a pump gun with a red dot at 50 yards against a spinner target.
Click to expand...
I actually agree that it's an odd comparison, as a double-barrel seems like it could complicate that. More on that later.

Still Anonymous For This said:
Karl literally says people who say irons (a bead in this case) on shotguns are wrong.
Click to expand...
Did he? I only looked at the video, the conclusion he makes is that a decent optic will be better for shooting slugs, I didn't hear him say beads are obsolete or not useful.

Still Anonymous For This said:
You developed a nonsensical test. If the point was just to fuck around, that’s awesome, but Karl is trying to pass this off as empirical data when it isn’t. The fact that, of course a sxs would inherently be far less accurate than a pump gun, is never brought up by either of you in the video and you’re only downplaying it now after everyone has brought it up, because of-fucking-course it had an affect on the results.

View attachment 3202768
>obviously misses to the left when firing the left barrel
>obviously missses to the right when firing the right barrel
>”I know how to pattern this shotgun, it being a SxS has nothing to do with it!”
Click to expand...
Coming back from that first point. Now, I don't have that much experience with shotguns, particularly with slugs, (so please correct me if I'm making dumb assumptions here) but I know that double-barreled guns need to have their barrels regulated together for point of impact to be practical, and that this gets to be really expensive when it comes to rifle barrels which have to exhibit a lot more precision than smooth bores slinging shot.

Regulating a pair of smooth shotgun bores for point of impact with slugs seems like the effort you wouldn't see with anything that's not on the nicer side, so I figure the offset points of impact there makes a difference too, not just the different sights.
Rifle sights and especially a red dot would obviously be preferable for shooting slugs, but not having to account for your right and left shots going right and left and adjusting back and forth for that, with slugs, seems like it would make a lot of difference.
It'd be worth redoing with a single-barreled gun with a bead, or with just the one barrel.

I have no doubts that shotgun does great with shot as intended, but slugs aren't shot.
I notice he's mad as fuck, also.

Grave Ghost said:
Looks like the Azov book Ian had to pull has found a publisher.
Click to expand...
Good to hear, as long as it can be published. Hell, there's probably a Part 2 in the making because of current events even. Hopefully Ian can mend things with Popenker at some point, but it's probably going to be quite a while until that even comes on the table.

Akran said:
2: Why are you trying to hit a spinner at 50 yards with a shotgun? Why are other people trying to hit spinners at 50 yards with shotguns? Why would you reliably want to do that? Dumb.
Click to expand...
For sport?
 
HumptiDouji said:
but I know that double-barreled guns need to have their barrels regulated together for point of impact to be practical, and that this gets to be really expensive when it comes to rifle barrels which have to exhibit a lot more precision than smooth bores slinging shot.
Click to expand...
There's a few layers to it, and knowing shotguns will reveal why this experiment was performed even more pants-on-head; the barrels of a doublegun are regulated to fire shot at roughly the same point at a specific distance. Shot, mind you. The problem for different projectiles being introduced are deviations in the barrels on both planes(x, y) that will then impact the presumed accuracy of a slug through the now-bent tube, to bring in minor hyperbole. Double rifles on the cheaper end are notorious for poor regulation, one barrel shoots high and one shoots low, some have tensioners for left/right but not much else and they share a single sighting system. Very bad for precision.

A bead is difficult for marksmanship because it is not meant for accuracy, it is meant for speed with the benefit of shot spread because the targets are small and fast. Intuition and experience takes over similar to traditional bare-bow archery where people "just know" where they're aiming but can't exactly pull off a William Tell over and over again whereas with a sighted compound bow you can wreck your own arrows for days.

Put these together up against a pump action that doesn't have the quirks of aligning barrels and you've already got problems, now narrow your cone of fire to a single projectile and you've got massively skewed results without even considering the red dot.
 
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