General transgender discussion thread - Take the tranny related debates here.

[Lemmingwise]

I feel like there's a very unfair stigma against transition related surgery. What other kinds of currently medically approved surgery are considered "mutilation"? Not many.

It's not unfair; it's a well deserved stigma. The only other one is male circumcission. And like transition surgery, practically all studies show that it should not be done.

What other medically approved surgeries have lowered health outcomes after than before?
What other medically approved surgeries have experts lose their job when they point to the scientific studies that show that the outcomes are lowered, or when they try and create new studies that would expose this.

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UK’s youngest transgender patient seeks to reverse “sex-change” | Gen…

archived 17 Jun 2017 02:58:57 UTC

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Also, transgenderism is a linked comorbididy with schizophrenia so it's definitely apt to discuss them. It's also linked with autism but since everybody on this forum has that i'll let it slide.

Not only that, but exploratory studies have shown that schizophrenia medication alleviates most gender dysphoria cases, but that had to be shut down quickly of course. I don't have the link with me at the moment, but I linked it before in other trans threads on the farms, so anyone really curious can look it up.

 

[AnOminous]

I mean, plastic surgery is similar to that I guess. It typically doesn't involve removal of a body part but it does involve people paying thousands of dollars to modify their body. Sometimes it's even used by cis people overcome their body dysphoria when they just can't seem to love themselves as they are.

Generally, it doesn't involve removing the actual functional parts of the body. However, it is fairly rare for cosmetic surgery actually to be medically necessary. Sometimes, it might be necessary for some kind of extreme dysphoria about appearance, but "I'd kind of like to have a less Jewy nose" isn't generally considered a medical emergency.

At least in principle, SRS was invented to address gender dysphoria and, as such, subject to diagnostic criteria and the procedure limited to those who were diagnosed with a condition that made it medically correct. I'm not a doctor, so I'll generally defer to the state of the art and medical consensus, at least when it's represented by some kind of codified set of practices that are arrived at by an actual medically scientific method, as the original WPATH guidelines are.

So far as I can tell, though, recent medicine has thrown all that out the window, and with it, any claim they have that laypeople should just defer to what they say is right. The deference owed to medical professionals is largely because of such procedures and standards, and when they're not following them, they're entitled to no more deference than some Tijuana quack just making it up as he goes along.

So I think there probably are cases where SRS is the appropriate medical treatment, or at least I have no real medical basis to say not, even if the research is somewhat mixed on the issue. I have seen nothing absolutely conclusive either way. I can say, though, that this "informed consent" bullshit is obvious bullshit to the point a medical degree isn't necessary to see it, and just recklessly dumping puberty blockers down the throats of kids at the slightest excuse isn't a good idea.

Violently shouting down other actual doctors who disagree with this bullshit also doesn't say much about how robust these ideas are.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Plus we have a trans kiwi or two. No idea how they deal with being here.

I mean.... when someone is able to deny all evidence and the very existance of their own sex, they can carry on that bigotry towards anyone that brings information that would contradict their world view. You might as well ask how an anti-vaxer manages to remain one after talking to doctors.

 

[heathercho]

2) Comparing being trans and/or having GD with Schizophrenics is bad. Its another rhetorical slight of hand that "sounds good" or like "common sense" but it betrays a major lack of understanding about psychology. It also ends up with people suggesting putting trans people on literal potentially brain-frying anti-psychotics which is much less humane than transition is.

I think the issue is this ;
If people believe there is no dysphoria or alternatively, that transition makes them the opposite sex, then it is a delusion. It's not rooted in reality. If you transition, it can only ever be a gender transition, never a biological sex transition.
That's not an awful compromise, either, but it does have its limitations. You are a trans __ and not a biological.
Those limitations have to be accepted.

Let's not be disingenuous here, because a lot of the academic trannies are arguing that they're biologically on par with biological females (because let's be honest, the FTM ones know they're damn well not on par).
They can't, never will be. I will never be 6ft tall and a natural blonde either. Sometimes you just have to accept shit.
Troons do not want to accept it.

IN THEORY, this works. But in practice we still have expectations that are way more harshly enforced against non-passing trans people that makes it untenable in the current state of affairs. As well as the fact that there's still body-related gender dysphoria that is shown to decrease with steps to transition. So thinking just purely practically, this train of thought fails.

And honestly this also feels very "have your cake and eat it too" in that you can just pull out this ideal when someone wants to pass or transition but then pull the "you're not even trying!" canard when the previous one is accepted.

It also really comes down to another "why not both?" deal in my case. Since I'm going through with it but am content knowing this is just part of what I am. This is pretty much my thinking on all issues about bodies, not just trans ones. People, motivated by loving themselves, can strive to improve their own bodies in whatever way they see fit. Transition, weight loss, getting gains at the gym, getting new tattoos or piercings. Just boiling it down to experiencing self-hate is simplistic.

I understand why people wouldn't want to go through with surgery, I don't think surgery answers the issue in society at all anyway.
The point is that transwomen can be women all they like, but they can never be female.
The fact that females are still discriminated due to their birth sex in a large chunk of the world, are still fighting for rights etc, yet are told at the same time to suck it up, be quiet and accept trans people in their space is a huge issue.
Females are being told once again to accept what males are throwing at them.
The fact that a lot of trans people and their handmaidens don't give a shit about this, is why people are getting sick of trans people. They don't want to have a conversation, they want enforced agreement.

Biological sex is still important. When you have people like Rhys McKinnon invading female sports because he got his dick chopped off, is pretty outrageous - it goes against logic.
Biological sex should always trump gender. Gender is an after thought. I know that doesn't make people feel good, but it's a reality. That doesn't mean troons can't use a woman's bathroom if they pass. But if they look like a dude and hulk in like a pervert, what can you expect? Females to just accept it and be good lil' handmaidens?
I hate saying this, but we are all part of a society, societies have rules and if you don't abide by the rules that draw society together and at least attempt to toe the line, then you will be viewed appropriately.
If they don't pass, then perhaps being a tranny isn't for them.

And honestly, it's these dumb assed perverts that are putting normal trans people in harm's way. Forcing the issue, opening the floodgates and accepting *everything* is not going to end well for anyone.

 

[ZXO]

I don't care about the decisions an adult makes regarding how far into transitioning they go. I do care about adults putting children through the process. Children, raised in an agreeably normal environment, are trustful and as a result don't fully understand coercion until they're taught about it. Nowadays, it seems parents can fast track with no resistance - provided they are in the right place.

I know a lady that got her daughter to falsely accuse her father of sexual abuse. It was all a lie (I knew this guy. Solid gold.), the father's reputation was shot, mother got custody of all three kids, quickly after starts posting even more generic liberal stuff on social media, eventually oldest son is wearing girl's clothes and is rapidly transitioning at age 12. I haven't spoke to the father in a while but I can't imagine what his mental state is like at all time. Oh, and please forgive me for powerleveling. I got a long list of complaints and a shit ton of suspicions.

 

[Otterly]

I feel like there's a very unfair stigma against transition related surgery.

Again just my views:

I think the ‘old’ way with extensive gatekeeping, psych evaluations etc made sure that the people who transitioned were those who derived psychological benefit from it that they wouldn’t get any other way. When the GRA2004 was enacted in the uk that was estimated to be 5000 people over twenty or so years and that number was accurate. Those are adults. They’re assessed. They’re screened to rule out for eg AGP fetishism, and other differential diagnoses. At that point I was very ‘meh whatever, live and let live.’ The people who fall under this are in general the sensible ones.

but... there’s been a shift and the source of that shift, and it’s impacts on patients and wider society are very worrying.

Firstly the patient pool. That’s become much younger. And it includes a huge number of very vulnerable kids, kids who are just going through puberty and finding it shit, kids who have been abused, and kids who are autistic. Very few of these kids would be going to end up as adults with GD if they were just supported through puberty, or diagnosed correctly. Instead they’re groomed online, which is bad enough, and also the state is cheering them on, which is horrific.
The puberty blockers drugs are horrendous. They’re really awful - I’ve sperged on at length elsewhere but they should not be being used like this. They cause iq drops, lower bone density, joint issues, endocrine and metabolic issues. There is no clinical justification for giving them to healthy children. None. It’s even not a clear cut choice when a child has what they’re approved for (precocious puberty.) so there are kids being pushed down a medical pathway and adults being sold a dream - those kids can’t consent and those adults are often misled.

onto my second point which is societal impact. People are generally chill in the West about LGB. People don’t really care if someone wants to wear opposite gender clothes or be a feminine man or a butch girl. I’m all for loosening some of the gender stereotypes, because I don’t think they help men or women. But... now we are having legislation and forced social change that actively harms people. Just a few examples;

look at the law document just referenced on the tranny news mega thread. That’s a white paper focusing on how to get parental rights removed and how to remove the restrictions on what children can consent to. That is not a good thing

Women’s single sex spaces being annihilated. That is not a good thing. Mens too.

laws / customs to punish misgendering. That’s compelled speech. That’s not a good thing.
Destruction of women’s sport. Not a good thing

So all in all, I think that if the patient population had stayed as it was twenty years ago, then most western people would be sympathetic. It must suck to have gender dysphoria, and I do have sympathy for that. If all transwomen were like rose of dawn or fionne orlander we’d be in a much better place. Stonewall extending their ‘trans umbrella’ to cover every fetishistic AGP, cross dresser or anyone who has ever had difficulty with the strict gender roles society has was not a good move.
Anyway I’ve strayed from my original point which was surgery. Yes bad plastic surgery can be classed as mutilation . But it affects no one else - women with terrible butt jobs are not grooming vulnerable kids into clinics, not having people fired or charged for saying they don’t think it’s a natural arse.

ETA:darkmage you seem like a decent person (with a thick skin) - I guess the only parallel I can think of is me being a feminist (old school, non man hating, remember when women were genuinely discriminated against, fought against that.) I think of myself as a feminist then I look at what utter shite your average millenial internet third wave feminist comes out with and I just cringe. That’s not what I think or believe, yet if I said I was a feminist I’d be labelled just like those crazy bitches.

 

[Ndnd]

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Debbie Karemer from the Daily Mail article is featured in this BBC piece on detransitioners. One of the psychiatrists they spoke to found that a lot of young women transitioned as a means of coping with sexual abuse.

The interview with Dr Elizabeth van Horn, consultant psychiatrist in Gender Identity Services at the Tavistock clinic, is quite interesting. Emily Maitlis doesn't mince words and asks the hard questions about the evidence-based research behind gender dysphoria or rather the lack thereof. Dr van Horn is a goddamn quack. She basically admits that everything they're doing is experimental.

 

[AnOminous]

The puberty blockers drugs are horrendous. They’re really awful - I’ve sperged on at length elsewhere but they should not be being used like this. They cause iq drops, lower bone density, joint issues, endocrine and metabolic issues.

The IQ drops are probably a benefit if you're trying to push a larger Clown World agenda.

 

[Marceline]

Being trans is okay in my book as long as you aren't starting problems.
We're all people & shit.

 

[Lemmingwise]

The IQ drops are probably a benefit if you're trying to push a larger Clown World agenda.

Don't forget the fertility drops, so it basicly becomes an attack on the people itself as a whole.

Guess you're gonna need more immigrants.

Unless you live in Israel.

 

[💗Freddie Freaker💗]

Generally, it doesn't involve removing the actual functional parts of the body. However, it is fairly rare for cosmetic surgery actually to be medically necessary. Sometimes, it might be necessary for some kind of extreme dysphoria about appearance, but "I'd kind of like to have a less Jewy nose" isn't generally considered a medical emergency.

I'm no medical professional either so I might be completely wrong about this, but I'm getting the impression SRS should be treated like cosmetic surgery rather than medical treatment. After all, what's the difference between gender dysphoria and the dysphoria some cis people experience? Some cissies do feel suicidal over having jewy noses. I've seen this picture floating around and I quite agree with it, I think:

 

[AnOminous]

I'm no medical professional either so I might be completely wrong about this, but I'm getting the impression SRS should be treated like cosmetic surgery rather than medical treatment. After all, what's the difference between gender dysphoria and the dysphoria some cis people experience? Some cissies do feel suicidal over having jewy noses.

There's dysphoria and there's dysphoria on the level that it's an actual medical problem and represents a threat to mental health or life sufficient that a fairly drastic intervention is justified. When people claim they have no dysphoria whatsoever and there's nothing wrong with them, I do think at that point something like SRS is just optional surgery they should have to pay for themselves.

There is no reason people with nothing wrong with them are entitled to extremely expensive free shit.

 

[💗Freddie Freaker💗]

There's dysphoria and there's dysphoria on the level that it's an actual medical problem and represents a threat to mental health or life sufficient that a fairly drastic intervention is justified. When people claim they have no dysphoria whatsoever and there's nothing wrong with them, I do think at that point something like SRS is just optional surgery they should have to pay for themselves.

There is no reason people with nothing wrong with them are entitled to extremely expensive free shit.

Then surgical treatments for life threatening cis dysphoria (cisphoria?) should also be covered by insurance, imo.

 

[AnOminous]

Then surgical treatments for life threatening cis dysphoria (cisphoria?) should also be covered by insurance, imo.

They sometimes are, although it's usually for the results of actual disfiguring injuries rather than just being an uggo.

 

[💗Freddie Freaker💗]

This is not nearly as widespread as people keep complaining. I've legitimately seem more people complain about this being some "dominant view" in society or online 1000s of times more than I've actually seen a view like this expressed. (quoted another example from Otterly in the insane parents of trans kids thread since it fit more with this discussion than that one.)

For something that rare, the pushback is pretty widespread and misapplied to a wide swathe of people that don't even actually believe anything like this.



And this, this is a related note. It's not about specialness. The existence of trans people and drag queens and butches don't negate any of the other categories. Some drag queens are even trans people.



I feel like there's a very unfair stigma against transition related surgery. What other kinds of currently medically approved surgery are considered "mutilation"? Not many. Same thing goes with some people's weird moral crusade over surgery complications you don't see in any other type of surgery even ones with comparably awful complication potential.

Medicine, surgery, and changing the social order are hardly mutually exclusive things and I prefer working towards better and more refined forms of each simultaneously.



I was very tempted to get snarky with you. But I'll just be straight up.
1) It's not. Detransitioning is fine. The only thing that isn't fine is the cult-like subset that have decided that since it wasn't working for them, it doesn't work at all, in any case. They frequently hide behind this rhetoric.
2) Comparing being trans and/or having GD with Schizophrenics is bad. Its another rhetorical slight of hand that "sounds good" or like "common sense" but it betrays a major lack of understanding about psychology. It also ends up with people suggesting putting trans people on literal potentially brain-frying anti-psychotics which is much less humane than transition is.




Okay I was sort of with you until you posted a bunch of really blatantly weird incel cringe. Why the fuck is every single permutation of or response to Blanchardian shit that comes from the bowels of reddit & 4chan even weirder than the last variant?



Nah you're 100% sane. People who spend a lot of time on here are very prone to falling into myopic worldviews about subjects like trans people, mental health, etc. It doesn't help there's a lot of people coming in from places like reddit or /pol/ that encourages even more insulation and professing certain kinds of views that usually get their espousers removed from other places.

That can add up to really be a curse. I still love free speech zones existing but it does run the risk occasionally of certain fringe views coming to dominate. And that's good or bad, depending on what those are, imo.

On how I deal. I usually have to laugh. And sometimes take a step back and do other shit to remind me that not everything is about "muh trannies. Muh suicide rates. Muh troons. All X are Y" and people can actually be yknow, normal.



I actually am legitimately by this point convinced that CWC had gender dysphoria issues for years but she's autistic and overcompensating. A lot of the "manly straight man i hate da homos" shit and other odd comments about gender begin to make sense in that context. CWC wouldn't have the understanding either because of a rather conservative upbringing that never really allowed for the kind of exploration we later saw (oftentimes in very unfortunate ways) starting in the tomgirl saga.



IN THEORY, this works. But in practice we still have expectations that are way more harshly enforced against non-passing trans people that makes it untenable in the current state of affairs. As well as the fact that there's still body-related gender dysphoria that is shown to decrease with steps to transition. So thinking just purely practically, this train of thought fails.

And honestly this also feels very "have your cake and eat it too" in that you can just pull out this ideal when someone wants to pass or transition but then pull the "you're not even trying!" canard when the previous one is accepted.

It also really comes down to another "why not both?" deal in my case. Since I'm going through with it but am content knowing this is just part of what I am. This is pretty much my thinking on all issues about bodies, not just trans ones. People, motivated by loving themselves, can strive to improve their own bodies in whatever way they see fit. Transition, weight loss, getting gains at the gym, getting new tattoos or piercings. Just boiling it down to experiencing self-hate is simplistic.

I just want to say, thanks for bearing with us transphobes. Trans or not, you're cool and you shouldn't feel bad about being who you are.

Also, aren't women who do drag called faux queens? Pretty sure drag queens are exclusively male.

 

[Marceline]

Trans or not, you're cool and you shouldn't feel bad about being who you are.

It is very refreshing to hear this on this site which I know is very anti-trans. My best friend is ftm and has been transitioning for several years and he just gets happier and happier and more himself, and now one couldn't tell he was ever a girl.

 

[💗Freddie Freaker💗]

It is very refreshing to hear this on this site which I know is very anti-trans. My best friend is ftm and has been transitioning for several years and he just gets happier and happier and more himself, and now one couldn't tell he was ever a girl.

I think a lot of us feel this way, although we do take pleasure in pointing out shitty things about the trans movement.

I think transwomen are men but I do try to respect them when they're not being absolute lolcows.

 

[Marceline]

I think a lot of us feel this way, although we do take pleasure in pointing out shitty things about the trans movement.

I think transwomen are men but I do try to respect them when they're not being absolute lolcows.

And, there is something respectable about that. I disagree with you on the concept that trans women are men or that trans men are women, but there can always be civilised talks if there is a level of respect and kindness to one another.

 

[Otterly]

It is very refreshing to hear this on this site which I know is very anti-trans.

I think the distinction needs to be made between individuals and ideologies. Like religion, there’s a big difference between criticism of an ideology and hating on the normal practitioners of it. I’m not religious. I don’t really care of other people are religious, and I’m very pro religious freedom. I don’t like the idea of an individual being persecuted for their beliefs, even if i think that belief is nonsensical. I have friends who have sincere religious beliefs and we can discuss and argue and remain civil

where my line is drawn is if a group wants to compel me to practise that religion, or indoctrinate my kids in it, or persecute me for not believing. Then we’ve stopped being free and secular and we are in a theocracy.

For me it’s the same with trans. If you’re an adult capable of understanding and consent then your identity beliefs are your own. you shouldn't be harmed for them. But if that identity belief starts to harm me, my foot goes down hard.

 

[Lemmingwise]

I'm no medical professional either so I might be completely wrong about this, but I'm getting the impression SRS should be treated like cosmetic surgery rather than medical treatment. After all, what's the difference between gender dysphoria and the dysphoria some cis people experience? Some cissies do feel suicidal over having jewy noses. I've seen this picture floating around and I quite agree with it, I think:

View attachment 1034834

Reminds me of a fragment of a movie where a Sikh in New York is complaining to the police about them arresting him at first, when he was one of the hostages, not one of the perpetrators and that it's always like that in every airport, always the prejudice. And the black detective says dryly to laughs: "I bet you can get a cab though".

I think a lot of us feel this way, although we do take pleasure in pointing out shitty things about the trans movement.

I think transwomen are men but I do try to respect them when they're not being absolute lolcows.

And, there is something respectable about that. I disagree with you on the concept that trans women are men or that trans men are women, but there can always be civilised talks if there is a level of respect and kindness to one another.

Keep in mind that some of the strong detractors of transgenderism (read: people like me) have had a lot of experiences with transgender friends and also how it has changed (read: harmed) those friends. Some of us started researching this not to find reasons to hate it, but to better understand people we love and only as a result of ample research (and some personal experiences) turned into people that are mostly warning others.

I'm personally responsible for being a catalyst cause to have a friend not transition, simply by asking one question (that he didn't want to hear), which was: do you think that all the enthusiastic responses to you crossdressing and considering transition, will continue after a month of no new developments, when the novelty has worn off?" He didn't want to affirm it, but I saw the gears turning in his head and 2 weeks later I heard that he was opting out of the surgery and 6 months later he had stopped crossdressing.

I don't think he'd want to hear it, but I was pretty sure his lack of success with women (very insecure around women) just made him want to have some control/ownership over something "female". Also this particular guy had been part of two different exploitative religious cults, so he had a history of being susceptable to groupthink that was not in his own interest.

When I asked him about a year later if he remembered why he had wanted to transition, he told me that after seeing Jenner, he realised that trans people were very oppressed and that maybe he could help by giving a good respectable face to transgenders. I like the guy for a number of reasons, but this was a completely delusional point of view, as most people around him kinda look down on him (but also like him, due to his humor).

Anyways, the point is that resistance and warnings in regards to transgender stuff isn't necessarily just groupthink and hating the different. For some of us it's the result of a labour of love done as a result of choices made by people we care about. Yes, I think that people like @Feline Darkmage are making a mistake and yes, the fact that he/she isn't able to build coherent arguments as to why my research / assertions would be wrong confirms that view rather than diminishes it.