General transgender discussion thread - Take the tranny related debates here.

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I did not know they restarted it. sigh.

And my source for the JMC is by memory alone (about 15 years ago when I last read it..or about the center )
I assume this coincides with the overall pozzing of the APA. I don't have the historical context. Would be fascinating to see it from someone who does though. I know at some point in the last 10-15 years the APA went from "let's treat this strange, rare mental disorder as best we can" to "TITTY SKITTLES STUNNING AND BRAVE, TROON OGRES ARE TRUE WIMMIN". Was it infiltration from troons, like a lot of online communities see? Was it an injection of bonkers lefty brainrot hitting a critical mass? Inquiring minds want to know.
 
I assume this coincides with the overall pozzing of the APA. I don't have the historical context. Would be fascinating to see it from someone who does though. I know at some point in the last 10-15 years the APA went from "let's treat this strange, rare mental disorder as best we can" to "TITTY SKITTLES STUNNING AND BRAVE, TROON OGRES ARE TRUE WIMMIN". Was it infiltration from troons, like a lot of online communities see? Was it an injection of bonkers lefty brainrot hitting a critical mass? Inquiring minds want to know.
That is the question for the ages...
 
I must admit, transgender issues were just something I generally supported and never thought about, but looking at these statistics, and the actual, granular experiences and the sheer level of misinformation and propaganda about the transgender experience is startling. Nobody questions it, nobody points out that some of the positions insisted upon by the pro-trans crowd are literally anti-science, and its disturbing when its obvious that almost nobody actually agrees with this shit.

We have this stuff in Australia, where people were being taught about gender identity and I had no idea what conservatives were whinging about - now I see the madness they're actually targeting children with and clear that this is not a battle for the right of self-expression but some cult of conformity that is trying to get everyone to make the most pointless and unsatisfying pact with the devil possible.
 
now I see the madness they're actually targeting children with and clear that this is not a battle for the right of self-expression but some cult of conformity that is trying to get everyone to make the most pointless and unsatisfying pact with the devil possible.
It probably says a lot about how low my expectations are that I can still fully believe the Mass Hysteria theory over the idea that its being deliberately pushed by some nefarious organization to some end goal.
 
The fact we have to accept males with sex fetishes as being women is so absurd to me it's like I've been transported into some alternative reality where I'm the only sane person.
 
One thing I find hard to understand is that troons claim that 41% of them contemplated suicide at one point or another.

On the one hand, if Twitter is anything to go by, that number is way too low. In my experience, the majority of them threaten to commit suicide over the slightest things (getting complimented, not getting complimented, wrong pronouns, a torn fingernail, etc) at least once a week. They also commonly use it to get something they want, such as access to women's rest rooms or sex.

On the other, the number 41% doesn't even seem that high to me. Suicide ideation or at least contemplation is not that unusual during puberty and adolescence, and it can be found all over arts, literature and pop culture. Eventually, most people move past it, of course, but dark nights of the soul are a very common part of the overal human experience, and I guess the majority of all people, regardless of gender and sexual orientation, experienced them to some degree at some point in their life. So why is that number of 41% (which is almost certainly made up and lacking any scientific foundation) supposed to be so shocking?

I tend to believe it's because most troons are so narcissistic that they are incapable of imagining that something they experienced isn't exclusive to them but really just part of a universally shared human experience.

(edited for clarity)
 
I'm pretty sure 41% is supposed to be completed suicides plus "serious attempts", meaning the authorities get involved. That is something that exists as official government statistics.

Whether 41% is accurate for that, I will leave to others.

It would not be possible to have statistics about "ideation" or constant random threats.
 
I'm pretty sure 41% is supposed to be completed suicides plus "serious attempts", meaning the authorities get involved. That is something that exists as official government statistics.

Whether 41% is accurate for that, I will leave to others.

It would not be possible to have statistics about "ideation" or constant random threats.
Its likely this, or just misinterpreted or made up stats. I just don't really trust or care for any stats that troons pump out, anymore.

Where I'm currently at with the troons, is the same place that I was at with the war on drugs a decade or a half ago (whom remember when high schools used to have cops come in to discuss the horrors of marijuana, the stats associated with overdoses on the substance, how it fucked up your mind, etc).

Maybe some of the anti-drug propaganda is true, certainly much of it for drugs outside of marijuana is, but with the way people politicize and propagandize, or even outright make up or misinterpret stats, it got to the point that anecdotal experiences defined my reaction to drugs and the war on drugs more than anything else.

With troons, I'm seeing the same thing now with people pumping stats out of their ass, making them up, or otherwise just misinterpreting or propagandizing stats. Case in point, "violence against transfolk" or "trans murder rate" stats. If we actually take a look at transfolk getting murdered, its usually poor, people of color, who are in bad areas of the US or Brazil, and involved in prostitution or the drug trade and its almost always some drug deal or prostitution instance gone bad. If you factor that in, it points to being trans as sort of auxilary to why the violence occurs, and not necessarily the prime factor.

Random middle-upper middle class troons in their 30s, who aren't mired in being an actual prostitute (no, "ethot" sex workers don't count), aren't involved in potentially violent drug deals, and have their own literal ivory towers who want to claim that they are terrified of violence because of said stats, are both misinterpreting and using said stats completely wrong and in an intellectually dishonest way.

Anyways, whenever I see "le 41%" I just don't know what to think or care anymore, because the troons propagandize so much, and it just reminds me of the same effect the war on drugs had. I require much more context to actually take any stats said by them seriously now.

Was the 41% study recent? Is it from a decade ago, two decades ago, etc, when this wasn't as much of a social contagion? Did it come during the 2000s, when everyone was emo and had suicidal ideation? Are the stats "skewed" by including people in ghetto places globally, but being used primarily to justify the actions of troons in gilded neighborhoods in the 1st world? As you say, is this based on government stats, or just the thought of wanting to commit suicide?

Its generally not something I can do anymore, take anything the troons tout at face value, because it will almost certainly be a propagandized interpretation of stats.

If its laughing at le 41% meme, I'll do that, because I do know that a lot of these troongoons do wind up killing themselves and largely have only themselves to blame (ie, if you don't have dysphoria, are an agp, and cut off your dick in your 20s; having talked with a few friends who have gone through this who I do feel some pity for, guess what? You've legitimately given yourself actual dysphoria because you no longer have a dick where you otherwise would and your body will feel all wrong now once the drugs wear off!). Against all advice, people will still do this, call you bigoted for trying to warn them, and then "boo, waa, waa, oh no". Quene the lolcow formula of being too narsissistic to take good advice from others, failing to see your own flaws, being the source of your own downfall, and then still blaming others and not learning the lesson + demanding that others compensate you for your flaws and getting angry when they don't (thats why I laugh at lolcows anyways, because how else are you supposed to react?).

To take troons at their own word when they quote stats though? No, never, foolish that is.
 
What I am wondering is that in recent times, has the transgender community become more accepting of people that troon out, to abandon their spouse/SO, and/or children? And that made me realize that the Stefonknee story came out years ago, and given how the lunacy has multiplied ever since, I would assume that people have becoming more accepting of that, and even blaming the spouse/SO and/or children as being at fault.
 
This is a chapter from a Soviet-era book on Soviet homosexual culture, translated by me. It is supplementary to my response to @Peaches Demure in the Tranny Sideshows on Social Media thread, but I found it too long and too boring to be posted in a thread for laughing at trannies. This chapter discusses Soviet lesbians in labour camps and prisons. The book is called The Argot of the Russian Gay Subculture by Vladimir Kozlovsky and was published in 1986 by Chalidze Publications.

Camp lesbians are first mentioned in relation to the end of the 1930s. For example, E. Olitskaia writes that when her group of former tiurzachkas (female prisoners) arrived at Kolyma,

we were initially shocked by those women who stood out like sore thumbs — ‘it’. Nasty, revoltingly shameless creatures. Magadan had fewer of them. They were normally sent out to the far-away camps. Defiant faces, hair cropped like men’s, padded jackets hanging off their shoulders... They had lovers, mistresses among inmates. They strutted around the camp in pairs, embracing, flaunting their love. Wardens, just like the vast majority of inmates, hated ‘it’. Camp women anxiously kept their distance.

G. Aleksandrov paints a colourful portrait of such an ‘it’ in the previously cited novel ‘I bring to the colonies of rejects...’:

Inka Vasek was sitting on the top bunk with her legs drawn close. She was rocking back and forth with her eyes closed and was humming something sad and unclear without opening her mouth. A woman, a mere adolescent and naked to her waist, was lying near her with her head on the boards. ‘Vow to love Vasek’ was tattooed on her left breast with blue ink, and her right breast, firm and tanned, vowed to love Iurok.
‘Sing something, Klavka!’ ordered Inka Vasek.
‘Sing what, Inka?’ asked Klavka timidly, covering her vowes with her hands.
Instead of answering, Inka Vasek swung her arm and punched Klavka in the face.
‘What’s that for?’ whimpered Klavka, wiping blood off her wounded face.
‘For “Inka”!’ explained Inka Vasek. ‘What’s inked on your left jug?’
‘Vow... to love... Vasek...’ answered Klavka, choking on tears.
‘And you called me “Inka”! I’m not some kinda slag! A man! Vasek!’
‘I forgot,’ babbled scared Klavka.
‘You’ll remember! Screeched so much last month getting inked, but now everyone knows who you love! Me! Vasek!’ Inka Vasek proudly pointed to her plump chest. ‘I despise men! I was young, tried kissing me... Kissed like I’m a broad, I kissed him like he’s a slag. I look like a broad, but I’m really a man! I love young bints!’

Not only does Inka Vasek speak about herself in the masculine gender, but so do her campmates. One of them tells Vasek: ‘You’re the right kinda man.’ Nevertheless, Vasek sometimes falls into the feminine gender:

‘What a minx!’ said Vasek admiringly, salaciously licking her lips. ‘I’d snatch that one. I’d give her alcohol! I’d get her such inks! I called her, but she pays me no mind, fucking bitch.’

The way Vasek treats her objects of attention is clear from her plans regarding that same campmate (the ‘minx’):

‘Will I love her! She’ll squeak like a mouse! I’ll get her inks tomorrow. On her back, a cat and a mouse. When she bends over, it’s like the cat is chasing and the mouse is running to its burrow. And huge letters across her belly: ‘vow to love Vasek’. I’ll put ‘Vasek’ on her forehead and her cheeks,’ Inka’s fantasy ran wild.

Her prospective victim, Rita, had indeed met Vasek before this without realising she was looking at a kobel, an active lesbian.

Rita glanced at ‘Vasek’. Though she was a bit frightened, she noticed that the Vesek woman was dressed in a new military shirt tucked into deep-blue trousers. A wool hat crisscrossed with a narrow red stripe covered her head and calfskin boots polished to shine were on her feet.

In response to Rita’s question, her campmate ‘tersely and brusquely’ tells her that Vasek is a lesbian:

‘Who’re lesbians?’ asked the woman.
‘In Ancient Greece, more than two and a half thousand years ago, on the Lesbos island, there were women who loved other women.’
‘Truly loved?’
‘What kind of true love could those freaks have? Gossipers say that the Sappho poetess was heading those creatures. A bald-faced lie. Sappho had a husband and children, and, most importantly, she wrote pure poems about love. Vasek, she is called something else, is drawn to women...’
‘Kobel?’ Rita shuddered.
‘Where did you learn that word?’
‘I heard it... also in the lock-up,’ confessed Rita after a pause.
‘You heard it, now forget it!’

In the second tome of camp memoirs of E. Ginzburg, there appears a ‘disgusting little bug-eyed toad of a lesbian Zoika. Three so-called ‘kobels’ around her. They look like hermaphrodites, with short-cropped hair, hoarse voices, and men’s names: Edik, Sashok, and some other one...’

M. Demin writes in his ‘Blatnoi’ book:

Those kobels were stern, pushy, and aggressive. The whole camp feared them. They drank vodka, took drugs, played cards. They also mercilessly exploited their lovers, gutless and browbeaten kovyrialkas.
Ordinarily, each of those kobels kept several of such mistresses: took them one by one and kept a tight rein on his harem. However, there were also cases of, so to say, monogamous love. Strange alliances, strange weddings sometimes happened in women’s barracks.
Just such a wedding was happening in a barrack I once happened to visit. Everything was as it should be: somebody was singing, somebody was dancing. And, in the midst of this universal celebration, next to the full table, a young lesbian was sobbing.
The ‘groom’ next to her, with short-cropped hair and dressed in a colourful shirt, gave me a grim and anxious look. (I really have no clue which gender fits here, masculine or feminine? The former does not fit very well... The latter does not either. Still, more he than she.) He obviously viewed me as his enemy, a potential rival! All the time I was there, I felt his relentless, sticky gaze.

The above quotations speak about the 1930s and the 1940s. Here is what M. Ulanovskaia recollects about a camp in the early 1950s:

I was friends with another German woman, Ursula, in the 40th group. My other friends and acquaintances looked at this friendship with worry. Lena gloomily stated that her compatriot was a ‘Schwein’. The thing was, a woman like Ursula had many names in a camp, from the mocking ‘it’ to the merciless ‘kobel’. The literary and scientific term ‘lesbian’ was not popular. Such women oftentimes wore trousers and cut their hair in an attempt to look like men. There were especially many of them among criminals, slightly less among Germans, and there were a few among our intelligentsia as well. Ukrainians and, of course, believers were less susceptible to all kinds of moral rot. Some of them were sustained by their ideology, and peasants were completely impervious to all kinds of camp disease: snitching, thieving, cohabiting with wardens, and, of course, lesbianism.
Instances of exalted friendship sometimes happened among believers. But, apparently, their ‘sublimation’ was so strong that it kept these friendships from crossing any boundaries.
Criminals were the most ostentatious. This phenomenon is documented in their folklore. A common proverb: ‘once you try a finger, you won’t want a man’. But, it is also said that women touched by this vice are cured of it once they move into a normal environment. I remember a song sung by one criminal:
Hey, thank you, Stalin,
For making me a madam:
I’m a cow, and I’m a bull,
I’m a woman, and a man, too.
I remember one young criminal impassionately telling us during excavations: ‘I was young back then. Did not live with men, only women.’
Nevertheless, even they, the completely hopeless, were capable of acts of great selflessness for the sake of this ‘friendship’. They could make a ‘mastyrka’, a fake injury, to avoid an unavoidable separation in a camp. I remember a funny little criminal Zaitseva who avoided transfer with the help of a chemical pencil lead and proudly strutted around the camp with black eyes. Another criminal died after letting soap into her vein.
Among the intelligentsia everything was, naturally, concealed, veiled, and ambiguous. Very rarely did people admit to such a vice, but it sometimes happened. I was told by Tamara who was from a Russian emigre family and in love with a beautiful Estonian Wanda: ‘I’ve been married twice, but I’d only want a kid from Wanda.’

The notes of Iu. Voznesenskaia, ‘White camomile’, dedicated to women’s camp in the 1970s, say about lesbianism that ‘older women sneakily and venomously infect younger women with this vice’. Voznesenskaia talks about camp lesbian Tatiana:

Older inmates in the juvenile colony taught Tatiana all there was to know about ‘women’s love’. ‘At first, like all newcomers, I was ‘working from below’, so I could also deal with men later,’ explained Tatiana to us. ‘ And many don’t want it ‘from below’ after a man. “Once you try a finger, you won’t want a man.”’ Saying this, she was glancing conspiratorily at her partner, Galina. Galina, not one bit ashamed, nodded affirmatively. ‘After the colony, I was curious: what’s it like with a man? I met Seriozha soon after. And, can you believe it, girls: me, such a slut, turned out a virgin! My Seriozha got so happy he married me right then and there. I taught him some things, so I was okay with him, he would be the man and the kobel too. And, oh, did the other women love him!’

The aforementioned Galina was

a young girl who has gone through fire and water while free and now is studying ‘women’s love’, that is, lesbianism, under the mentorship of Tatiana. They occupied the bottom bunk just for this reason, as it was darker and allowed to hang up laundered bedsheets to hide from wardens’ eyes. Tatiana herself was an ‘oboiudchitsa’ and could take part in sexual affairs both as a man and as a woman, becoming once ‘kobel’ then ‘kovyrialka’. Similarly, she would pick flowers of pleasure with wardens and convicts on duty alike whenever she could without any standards. But, she prepared Galina for the ‘kobel’ role and assured us that it was not without success: ‘That’ll be the main kobel here! There’ll be no escape from women!’

On 31st of October, 1973, we taped an interview with a twenty-year-old informant who had just left a women’s camp where she was for a crime (let’s call her ‘Lena’). According to her claims, about 80% of prisoners took part in ‘women’s love’ (there were more ‘kovyrialkas’, that is, passive lesbians, than active lesbians). Answering the question about campmates’ opinions of ‘kovyrialkas’, she said: ‘Generally speaking, they’re despised behind their backs, of course, but they’re pampered in public, others launder for them, cook for them, do everything for them.’

COMPILER: Ah, so they enjoy a privileged status, in a way?
‘LENA’: Yep, yep.
COMPILER: They avoid doing things others must do?
‘LENA’: Yes, of course.
COMPILER: Give me an example.
‘LENA’: Well, how would I put it... Well, say, I have to be on duty... Others will take that duty... If I have to be on duty at night, my other half will do it... Oatmeal for breakfast, dinner, or supper, I won’t eat it. She’ll eat it herself, but I’ll still get butter, eggs, milk, all of it... She’ll get it for me any way possible... Laundry, don’t even know what that is... Ironing... Making the bed, also don’t even know, she does absolutely everything. She even tailors for me. Does my quota, too.

According to the informant, there is ‘absolutely’ no difference between men and women in the elderly ‘kobels’. ‘In their figure, in the forms even [there is nothing womenly]... Man’s hands, face, man’s wrinkles, man’s features, even shaped that way... Hair put away thusly, always men’s haircuts... Cannot tell, you just cannot tell them from men, you’ll never think that’s a woman... Even their voices are manly, even their voice is like a man’s. That is among the elderly.’ When it comes to ‘kovyrialkas’, ‘usually kovyrialkas paint their lips... And put on a kerchief [like a woman], tie bows, big ones. Kobels have some too: they tie their kerchiefs differently. They don’t tie them like a woman would, but make a kind of hat out out it, tying it at the top of the head...’
‘We despise those who act as a kobel and a kovyrialka at once: sometimes one month it’s one way, differently another,’ Lena told us. She mentions that more people swear in the women’s camp than in the men’s, but the worst offence is to call somebody a ‘kovyrialka’: camp lesbians ‘fight horribly but make up right away’, ‘there are two halves, living together for a long time, but when they’re arguing, it’s horrible to witness, but the worst insult is to call her a “kovyrialka”, even though she is one’, ‘that love is nothing like with men, try to look at somebody else and you’ll be hit, sometimes poisoned’. Another curse, the informant tells us: ‘I do you like I do Klava Ivanova (or any other third person, regardless of whether the claimant lives with said person)’.
Both prisoners and administration call lesbian love ‘pederasty’ (obviously, by analogy with the vice of the men’s camp): ‘Well, say, somebody got sick,’ says the informant, ‘goes to the doctor, and the doctor tells them... The person has a fever but the doctor says: “This is due to pederasty,” due to cohabiting, see, so she does not grant them leave from duty. Every sickness will always be explained this way.
 
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This story was posted on Tranny Sideshows both female and male versions. Don't know if it's true either way. FtM seems more likely because this is peak girly rebellion behavior that blows up and it's everyone else's fault.
I'm a gay man myself, but admittedly not up on what goes with the younger set. Yet the more I think about it, the more impossible it seems to me.

Would a gay man really take a trans-man friend to such a party? Any gay man would know what would happen. On that level it's plausible given the set up.

Being "OK with" trans-men isn't the issue. Such parties tend not to be favorable even to the less prepossessing "normal" gay men. Unless you happen to be the regular boyfriend of one of the hunks or the one throwing the party.

So did it happen?
I think your additional information about the origin of the story means it did not. :christine:
 
I'm a gay man myself, but admittedly not up on what goes with the younger set. Yet the more I think about it, the more impossible it seems to me.

Would a gay man really take a trans-man friend to such a party? Any gay man would know what would happen. On that level it's plausible given the set up.

Being "OK with" trans-men isn't the issue. Such parties tend not to be favorable even to the less prepossessing "normal" gay men. Unless you happen to be the regular boyfriend of one of the hunks or the one throwing the party.

So did it happen?
I think your additional information about the origin of the story means it did not. :christine:
I'm pretty certain the ftm version is real; I remember seeing it posted before about a year ago, possibly with extra context. I also remember another incident from a few years back where a ftm complained about how gay men only ever talk about dicks instead of sharing their feelings and shit. It felt too much like a catty fujoshit complaining that gay men didn't live up to her stereotypes to be fake.
 
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