GPUs & CPUs & Enthusiast hardware: Questions, Discussion and fanboy slap-fights - Nvidia & AMD & Intel - Separe but Equal. Intel rides in the back of the bus.

[The Ugly One]

Slightly more per channel. but pretty comparable.

The biggest difference isn't number of connections but rather the geometry. Memory speeds have gotten so high that even slight differences in trace lengths are causing bus signals to arrive out of sync with each other (necessitating either artificially elongated traces or complicated circuitry for synchronization) and having to propagate high frequency signals at right angles like DIMM does creates its own issues with reflection and parasitic capacitance.

It is easy to forget that the digital abstractions are all powered by analog, meatspace physics.

 

[Susanna]

Electrons are just too damned slow.

Not that photons are really that much better.

 

[TheRaptorJesus]

If they bring camm to desktop they are going to have to make it as idiot proof as possible. More tiny pins for retards to bend - I already hate putting in CPUs. Just make all boards 2 DIMMs if you want to solve the speed issues. I am maybe looking at replacing my 11900k with the new core shit coming out this winter. Shit started to chug in anno 1800.

 

[Betonhaus]

and having to propagate high frequency signals at right angles like DIMM does creates its own issues with reflection and parasitic capacitance

Wouldn't a CAMM connector technically have two right angled, as the circuit will zig-zag over the connector?

 

[Fcret]

If they bring camm to desktop they are going to have to make it as idiot proof as possible. More tiny pins for retards to bend - I already hate putting in CPUs. Just make all boards 2 DIMMs if you want to solve the speed issues. I am maybe looking at replacing my 11900k with the new core shit coming out this winter. Shit started to chug in anno 1800.

I mean, the % of users who replace their own RAM is already minuscule, so I don't think it's much of a concern. Either you learn how to do it or pay someone to do it, and most people already just pay someone to do it even with DIMMs.

Also how would 2 DIMMs solve the speed issues?

 

[jeff7989]

It's easier to run 1 DIMM per channel at higher frequency, same with ranks per DIMM. It doesn't solve problems long tern, sure.
What about using SO-DIMM on desktop, does it have any benefits when it comes to signal integrity?

 

[Susanna]

Just having a second DIMM slot soldered onto the primary one will lower your potential clocks drastically. The signal will kind of “echo” and it really hurts the quality of what’s received at the other end. Limiting this is why you prefer to mount RAM in the slot further from the CPU for that channel, but not having multiple slots per channel is a big improvement on its own. Overclocking boards often only have two slots for that reason, and it’s also why mITX consistently beat ATX for overclocking memory in particular. Less noise, shorter path.

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

If they bring camm to desktop they are going to have to make it as idiot proof as possible. More tiny pins for retards to bend - I already hate putting in CPUs. Just make all boards 2 DIMMs if you want to solve the speed issues. I am maybe looking at replacing my 11900k with the new core shit coming out this winter. Shit started to chug in anno 1800.

Also how would 2 DIMMs solve the speed issues?

2 populated DIMMs can usually run at a higher frequency than 4. Take the Mini-ITX pill.

https://www.jedec.org/news/pressreleases/jedec-expands-camm-standardization-include-two-key-memory-technologies

The standard allows stacking of CAMM, to two CAMMs. One CAMM can offer single-channel, dual-channel, but not both unfortunately. Two of them would always give dual-channel.

https://www.jedec.org/sites/default/files/Tom_Schnell_FINAL_%202024-05-03.pdf

There's also plans to remove the need for screws in the future (page 11). I wonder if it would actually be better.

 

[Smaug's Smokey Hole 2]

Slightly more per channel. but pretty comparable.

The biggest difference isn't number of connections but rather the geometry. Memory speeds have gotten so high that even slight differences in trace lengths are causing bus signals to arrive out of sync with each other (necessitating either artificially elongated traces or complicated circuitry for synchronization) and having to propagate high frequency signals at right angles like DIMM does creates its own issues with reflection and parasitic capacitance.

That's clock skewing, it's been around forever and it is more noticeable on some older boards where they had more space.

 

[seri0us]

 

[Overly Serious]

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What an ungrateful little brat! Those things are expensive and even if they weren't that's not how you react to a gift.

Regards CAMM, I can envisage a world where motherboards that you buy for build-your-own PC move to having soldered on and fixed memory amounts. Sure, it's nice to be able to buy more memory later when you have the money rather than all the expense up front, or to be able to buy faster memory when you can afford it. But the nice to have over having to make a fixed decision for the life of your motherboard isn't necessarily greater than the value of just having faster and maybe even cheaper memory. I don't know if it'll be normalised but I believe there's a market that would sustain that.

 

[seri0us]

What an ungrateful little brat! Those things are expensive and even if they weren't that's not how you react to a gift.

Oh definitely, no kid "deserves" a PC or console especially just for games.
Good on him for being honest, I guess.

 

[eDove]

Oh definitely, no kid "deserves" a PC or console especially just for games.
Good on him for being honest, I guess.

Yeah, a kid that young especially doesn't need a PC. When he's old enough to pick out the parts and build one, sure, but I reckon this want was inspired by a copious consumption of Twitch streamers.

That's one thing consoles are good at at, keeping kids in one ecosystem that's easy to monitor and isn't filled to the brim with porn. I like the way he thinks, though.

 

[Overly Serious]

Electrons are just too damned slow.

Not that photons are really that much better.

I'd give you a thumbs up for that, but I'm afraid God would take it as a bad review.

 

[BPD Gunt Rider]

If the kid wants to build a PC and start learning how to do that, I can respect that. I was a kid that wanted to learn all the tech when I was young, but my family has no tech knowledge and were working class, so I got old consoles.

 

[Archeops]

Ugh, I'm kind of kicking myself right now over my ASUS laptop. Not for anything "major" like it breaking but there's a "new" model (same RTX 4070 Laptop GPU, same 1TB SSD, same initial 16 GBs of DDR4 RAM, etc.) that has a 13th Generation Intel Core i7-13620H CPU while mine has a 12th Generation Intel Core i7-12700H CPU.

Am I being autistic or is the 13th Gen Intel Core i7 CPU actually better than the 12th Gen Intel Core i7 CPU on a laptop like mine?

 

[Betonhaus]

Ugh, I'm kind of kicking myself right now over my ASUS laptop. Not for anything "major" like it breaking but there's a "new" model (same RTX 4070 Laptop GPU, same 1TB SSD, same initial 16 GBs of DDR4 RAM, etc.) that has a 13th Generation Intel Core i7-13620H CPU while mine has a 12th Generation Intel Core i7-12700H CPU.

Am I being autistic or is the 13th Gen Intel Core i7 CPU actually better than the 12th Gen Intel Core i7 CPU on a laptop like mine?

it is 0.00000000000000001% better in any meaningful way

 

[Fcret]

What an ungrateful little brat! Those things are expensive and even if they weren't that's not how you react to a gift.

Nah the parents who film these things always intentionally buy something the kid doesn't want to record the reaction and farm engagement on social media. They deserve to be put on blast by their kid.

No normal parent goes out and spends $500+ on something a kid hasn't put on their Christmas list.

 

[Overly Serious]

Nah the parents who film these things always intentionally buy something the kid doesn't want to record the reaction and farm engagement on social media. They deserve to be put on blast by their kid.

It's pretty normal to film a kid opening his presents on Christmas morning. That's right up there near the top of memories parents want to keep. I'd go so far as to say it's pretty atypical these days for a parent not to film it. At least in Middle Class America.

Ugh, I'm kind of kicking myself right now over my ASUS laptop. Not for anything "major" like it breaking but there's a "new" model (same RTX 4070 Laptop GPU, same 1TB SSD, same initial 16 GBs of DDR4 RAM, etc.) that has a 13th Generation Intel Core i7-13620H CPU while mine has a 12th Generation Intel Core i7-12700H CPU.

Am I being autistic or is the 13th Gen Intel Core i7 CPU actually better than the 12th Gen Intel Core i7 CPU on a laptop like mine?

13th gen is just 12th gen juiced a tiny bit higher. There is no meaningful difference beyond marketing. Lunar Lake and Arrow Lake are going to be the first significant architectural changes Intel have made in quite some time.

 

[Archeops]

it is 0.00000000000000001% better in any meaningful way

13th gen is just 12th gen juiced a tiny bit higher. There is no meaningful difference beyond marketing. Lunar Lake and Arrow Lake are going to be the first significant architectural changes Intel have made in quite some time.

That’s honestly good to hear, I feel like less of a schmuck for getting it on sale but it does remind me that I should keep a close eye on better laptops when mine starts to feel its age.