GPUs & CPUs & Enthusiast hardware: Questions, Discussion and fanboy slap-fights - Nvidia & AMD & Intel - Separe but Equal. Intel rides in the back of the bus.

I see the "$750 msrp" people were hoping for turned out to be a complete dud lmao.

Enjoy those $900+ xx6- I mean xx70 cards. What a shitshow.
It’s really going to be interesting what the pricing on the 60 series is really going to be. I’d imagine the 8gb models will still be priced in the mid $300- low $400 range because the market for 8gb cards is going down dramatically, doubt scalpers would even buy them, but we live in a fucked up economy now so who knows.
 
I wish more tech reviewers had brought up the PhysX issue in their reviews.
It only affects 32-bit applications that use CUDA PhysX. There are some big-name titles there, but do you expect reviewers to seriously talk about games from the early 2010s in their reviews?

Do we also need to talk about AMD absolutely failing at DirectX 9 support?
 
I wish more tech reviewers had brought up the PhysX issue in their reviews.
It's not a PhysX issue. They dropped support for 32-bit Windows drivers for CUDA completely. Microsoft dropped support for 32-bit Windows on Sept 30, 2024, so continuing to develop new 32-bit driver software is more trouble than it's worth.
 
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It's not a PhysX issue. They dropped support 32-bit Windows drivers for CUDA completely. Microsoft dropped support for 32-bit Windows on Sept 30, 2024, so continuing to develop new 32-bit driver software is more trouble than it's worth.
In other words upgrade your rig from 2008 that's on life support. Stick at least a 40 series in there, Windows 11, your flavor of modern AMD/Intel, and make something decent
 
In other words upgrade your rig from 2008 that's on life support. Stick at least a 40 series in there, Windows 11, your flavor of modern AMD/Intel, and make something decent

That's not it at all. It means that if you want to keep running old software, you'll need old hardware (where 40 series GeForce is "old"). It's like how Windows recently dropped support to run 16-bit applications natively. If you have some ancient 16-bit DOS or Windows 3.1 application, you'll just have to run it in an emulator. Perhaps some clever person will write a wrapper for the 64-bit CUDA driver that allows old 32-bit applications to run, similar to the Glide wrappers for DirectX that you can use with PC games from the late 90s.

EDIT: Inside baseball type info - when Microsoft drops support for an operating system, that means, among other things, no more security updates and, importantly, no more development tool updates. So if I've been supporting 32-bit Windows systems with an application, even if I want to keep supporting it, I really can't, because the latest versions of Microsoft tools won't support it, and I can't keep my development environment stuck in the past. This is not really a big deal, since Windows 11 has robust backward compatibility with 32-bit applications. 16-bit support was killed with Win 11, and some companies did cry about it, but Microsoft justifiably told them to learn how to use DOSBox if it really matters that much.

Most of your standard hardware is fine. If you have a 32-bit application, don't worry, it can talk to the network card in 64-bit Windows just fine. There's a layer to translate one to another. Same with your mouse. I have a Microsoft Intellimouse from 2001 that still works in Windows 11. Even old 32-bit DirectX games still work in 64-bit Windows (which is why Mirror's Edge runs at all). The problem is with anything that uses a fully proprietary protocol...like CUDA. That one is out of Microsoft's hands. NVIDIA's CUDA technology is 100% theirs, end to end, built by them, and provided by them. As of late last year, they can no longer build it for 32-bit systems.

The entity to blame for this is NVIDIA. When they were developing CUDA, many, many end users, including me, complained to them that a proprietary programming language is intrinsically risky, and they should really form a consortium with other companies, like Microsoft and the Linux Foundation, to build around OpenACC and develop the OpenACC standard. If they had done that, it would be on the operating system vendor to support it, and guarantee all-around better compatibility and support. Instead, NVIDIA bought the only cross-platform OpenACC compiler, PGI, and killed it to force people to CUDA. (The FTC never seems to consider this monopolistic behavior.)

So, here we are, exactly what everyone said would happen has happened, and old CUDA programs can't run on new hardware because NVIDIA has done everything to keep the API for its GPUs out of the operating system and in its walled garden. It's annoying, but unfortunately, its competitors in the accelerated compute space were all run by retards, so we're stuck with CUDA.
 
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That's not it at all. It means that if you want to keep running old software, you'll need old hardware (where 40 series GeForce is "old"). It's like how Windows recently dropped support to run 16-bit applications natively. If you have some ancient 16-bit DOS or Windows 3.1 application, you'll just have to run it in an emulator. Perhaps some clever person will write a wrapper for the 64-bit CUDA driver that allows old 32-bit applications to run, similar to the Glide wrappers for DirectX that you can use with PC games from the late 90s.
I mean that'll likely happen because people are autistic like that. I assume they did that though because things are getting cluttered anymore. On NVIDIAs end, it's AI, on Windows, DOS is like 40 years old lmao.
 
I mean that'll likely happen because people are autistic like that. I assume they did that though because things are getting cluttered anymore. On NVIDIAs end, it's AI, on Windows, DOS is like 40 years old lmao.
16-bit and even 32-bit applications on modern systems have long been kind of a security nightmare. A lot of vulnerabilities back in the XP era were tied to older 9x or win16 applications being allowed to do whatever they want because they weren't written with constraints like ACLs or user accounts in mind and the OS allowed them to ignore those in the name of backwards compatibility. Recently 32-bit applications have been the source of a lot of headaches because most of them don't have any concept of the NX bit which means marking pages in 32-bit applications as not being executable for security purposes causes many of them to break but not being able to do so leaves them open to code-injection attacks.

Very rarely do companies kill support for things simply on a whim.
 
Microsoft dropped support for 32-bit Windows on Sept 30, 2024
If that were the case, why haven't I heard a slew of people complaining that a major chunk of old games ceased to work under Windows 11 after they've updated to 24H2? Something like that would be the biggest piece of negative press Windows 11 could ever get, yet nothing happened.

You've missed a crucial detail in this statement: they've droped 32-bit ARM support. If Microsoft killed off 32-bit x86, the impact of that would be instantaneous and would essentially be a suicide move. Grab a more robust task manager like System Informer and you'll find that some of the software you run will be 32-bit. Windows 11 still supports 32-bit x86 software via WoW64, and the way Windows 11 does it is the exact same as it was when first 64-bit Windows versions were released. Via WoW64, it's why the 64-bit only nature of Windows 11 is a non-issue, just about everyone who ran Windows 10 already ran the 64-bit version, and Windows 11 functions the same. It still supports all the 32-bit programs, it has all the 32-bit compatibility options, it all just works, because WoW64 just works. There is zero excuse to not add backwards compatibility, or that you need to constantly maintain it per program/driver/element/whatever.
Windows recently dropped support to run 16-bit applications natively
In this case, "recently" refers to, you guessed it, when first 64-bit Windows versions were released, and it was realized by, you guessed it, a compatibility layer known as Virtual DOS Machine, or VDM. The only reason the support for 16-bit programs disappeared in Windows though, was because Microsoft didn't bother with porting that compatibility layer to 64-bit Windows. They were in the works of doing so, but they just gave up on it. However there is WineVDM which reimplements Wine's VDM in 64-bit Windows so you can get that backwards compatibility back.

You can get the newest Ryzen CPU, install Windows 11, then install WineVDM and suddenly you can play the original SkiFree for Windows 3.11 as if it were a native Windows program. No per program fuckery, it's generic, it just works. If Microsoft finished VDM for 64-bit Windows this would be ready OOTB and as transparent as WoW64 is, without a need for third party software. I mean, how many of you are even aware you're constantly using a compatibility layer to run your old games under Windows? Yeah, exactly, a good compatibility layer will ensure that all legacy software will run on modern systems with no need for case-to-case tweaking, it'll transparently make everything work, and corporate developers like Microsoft were able to create them and implement them in a way where they are seamless, work, and don't need extra maintenance to keep legacy components working.

This is an artificial limit, and there is no other explanation for that. Nvidia hasn't touched PhysX for years, 32-bit programs still run perfectly fine under Windows, most of the games you play will probably be that, Microsoft has to do nothing to upkeep the backwards compatibility for those games since that framework is already solid. Nvidia could've done the same for PhysX, but they've just axed it? On this specific generation? Yeah no, this is inexcusable. They could've gotten a software engineer to write a wrapper in the driver for those old games and no one would even notice that something has changed. It's not that they couldn't, they could do this cheaply and well where it would keep working forever and ever on 64 bit systems, they just chose not to.
 
They did fuck up a bunch of my old games in 24H2.
Here's a simple test. This is Solitaire from Windows 2000. Dragged out of an old VM, you can check them on VirusTotal if you want to. If you can unpack both of those files, run sol.exe and have Solitaire pop up instead of a "This program won't work on your PC" message, this means that 24H2 still supports 32-bit programs at a fundamental level via WoW64.

What The Ugly One was suggesting is, and I quote, "Microsoft dropped support for 32-bit Windows on Sept 30, 2024", which, if true, would mean that this executable wouldn't run. But I can assure you it will run perfectly fine even though it's over two decades old, because WoW64 is still a thing in Windows 11. If it wasn't, you'd know. Everyone would, from first hand experiences to news articles showing up as first results when looking for "windows 11 32 bit support". Semantics, sure, but it doesn't relate in any way to what Nvidia is doing. Fundamentally, 64-bit Windows was the same for ten years. Same driver stack since 2015, same way of running 32 bit software on 64 bit systems since 2015, the only thing that changed in 2021 was Windows 11 axing the 32 bit only version of the OS that maybe 1% of people would've used.

But anyways, that's not the point. The point is that Nvidia could easily write a CUDA wrapper on a driver level and just push it out in a driver update to avoid this entire ordeal if they see supporting 32-bit CUDA on hardware level a hassle. Maintains backwards compatibility with older games, anything that would use 32 bit CUDA is already so old the driver translation overhead would be negligible with how powerful CUDA is nowadays, everything would've worked perfectly and no one would care. But, this is Nvidia, they don't care, but everyone else does, and those who really care will definitely write a wrapper for PhysX. Something that Nvidia could've done themselves in the driver but hey ho, fuck you and buy our overpriced GPU's that aren't even in stock.
 
If that were the case, why haven't I heard a slew of people complaining that a major chunk of old games ceased to work under Windows 11 after they've updated to 24H2?

Because

Windows 11 has robust backward compatibility with 32-bit applications...Most of your standard hardware is fine. If you have a 32-bit application, don't worry, it can talk to the network card in 64-bit Windows just fine. There's a layer to translate one to another. Same with your mouse.

This is an artificial limit, and there is no other explanation for that.

No, the explanation is that there's a huge difference between a proprietary device driver and a generic Windows driver. Microsoft owns all the code for all of Windows for all time, so if your program talked to a 32-bit Windows driver who then issued instructions to a mouse, no big deal, they can build into their translation layer the ability to translate 32-bit driver calls into 64-bit driver calls.

But CUDA doesn't work that way. Your compiled CUDA code is looking for a 32-bit NVIDIA driver that provides an NVIDIA API that then turns around and emits NVIDIA chip instructions, which NVIDIA doesn't share with anyone (unlike x86). Note what name is missing: Microsoft. A compatibility layer isn't Microsoft's to provide.

Could a compatibility layer be provided in theory? Sure. Such things have been done for Glide and EAX...but not by Microsoft. It would be on NVIDIA to do that, and they're not going to. They'd need to collaborate with Microsoft and spend real money, and why? So that some ancient Windows AI/HPC software (because that's what CUDA is mainly for) from 10 years ago can run? Why would they spend even one dollar doing that, do you see them having any trouble selling GPUs?

What The Ugly One was suggesting is, and I quote, "Microsoft dropped support for 32-bit Windows on Sept 30, 2024", which, if true, would mean that this executable wouldn't run.

a) That's not what it means. Microsoft dropping support for 32-bit versions of Windows means 32-bit versions of Windows won't continue to get updates or new software.

b) I trusted an AI search result which of course was wrong, because AI is fucking stupid. Windows 10 32-bit will be out of support for consumers in October 2026.
 
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It’s really going to be interesting what the pricing on the 60 series is really going to be. I’d imagine the 8gb models will still be priced in the mid $300- low $400 range because the market for 8gb cards is going down dramatically, doubt scalpers would even buy them, but we live in a fucked up economy now so who knows.
Only Nvidia's strongest fake frame enthusiasts would buy a 5060 8 GB over $400, but there's the matter of the 5060 Ti. It sounds like there will be 8 GB and 16 GB models again. There's also a possibility of 12 GB versions of any of these 128-bit cards if the module supply is available. None of these cards have been announced by Nvidia and there's rumors of a delay.

The "low end" is going to be filled by some combination of AMD, Intel, and previous-gen Nvidia cards for the next few months. We can't really count on Navi 44 (9060 and below) to come anytime soon since, like Nvidia, AMD hasn't even announced it yet. Hopefully it brings 7700 XT performance with 16 GB for $300, but as a 128-bit GDDR6 card, it could be bandwidth starved.
 
I just built my parents a new small ITX computer since they were using a slow as fuck Dell Inspiron from 2018 that even with 3.5 SSD and 32 gigs couldn't even load a word document over 30 pages in under a minute. It had an AMD Ryzen 1400 with Dell mobo shit and a probably broken 2GB RX560 clearly bloating the thing.

-the Fractal Terra is a fantastic little case. Expensive, but easy to build in for a non powerhouse ITX build
-the AMD 9600X is a beast. I have a 2700X in my personal computer and it easily beats it in everything, I almost thought about letting them just use the onboard graphics since it's just a work desktop really, but I put in a 6600 just to be safe.


Seeing how strong this low-end/mid PC was, I was thinking of maybe doing a full new build with AM5 and maybe a 9700X, but I could get a 5900XT for 300 bucks from MicroCenter. Instead of a thousands build, just jacking up the CPU to the highest current AM4 would help. Thoughts?
 
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