Gypsies - A discussion on why they are the worst ethnic group

[latinlover]

I'm not a bong either so my knowledge of romanichal (especially the first hand one) is extremely limited but you can't tell me these people are white. I've looked at the article earlier, the man is as pale as it fucking gets, and I'd imagine there's a certain agenda behind not putting the sootiest, swarthiest pajeet known to mankind in front of the cameras- althought that might serve another, very similar goal, but it seems they opted for the first version.

Every source I've found tells me the romanichal are just an English subgroup of gipsies, they have their origins in Rajasthan aswell. Not only that, but every single picture I've come accross is the same swarthy poojeets. Zero difference in looks between them and continental gipsies- trust me, I've seen my fair share of those. Now, those are some cool wagons. I can also believe that they are 'one of the good ones', it seems like a very small ethnic group so it's possible they are docile enough to have their own natural predators, I have nothing against 'romanichal' in particular, but you can't tell me these people are white. They are also not 'dark' the way someone from southern Italy is, they are actual, full blown poojeets. Of course I don't doubt there's a couple ones you could call 'white', there's even a slang in most of the balkan countries with significant gippo populations that roughly translates to a permutation of "white gipsy" (think: wigger), usually referring to one of two things: first generation kids from white-gipsy marriages that end up looking like they are whiteish, or white trash who grew up in gypsy neighborhoods and completely integrated into the 'culture', only distinguishable by the colors of their skin.

Another thing which I suspect could contribute to looking up 'american gypsy' or something and finding the pastiest wypipo ever, is people larping as gipsies, which is extremely common with rootless burgers who find out their great great great great great grandparents were Bulgarian or something, then they try and find something even cooler than that within that niche and since they just associate gipsies with tarot reading and cool skirts/wagons from pop culture they land on that.

Roma didn't really do gold up until very recently.

This one though I am 100% certain cannot be attributed just to the 'romanichal', poojeets have been obsessed with gold and precious metals throughout the entirety of their civiliziation, it's literally sacred in hinduism which obviously gypsy culture borrows heavily from- eg. their word for the Christian god 'Devla' literally comes from the sanskrit 'deva', there are a couple other ones that are more than tangentially related to hinduism. That, plus during medieval times some of the european gyppoes were craftsmen who worked with gold, it's one of the emblematic gypsy professions besides locksmiths, horse salesmen and cobblers

Again, the romanichal seem OK and not cause too much trouble, but I do think you're attributing far more romantic mystery to them than necessary.

 

[FedPostalService]

I think most the romanichal just integrated into regular society after the Irish travellers ruined everything.

You’ll meet them very occasionally and they’ll be proud of being from “old gypsy stock” (a term I’ve heard them use) but they hate travellers and continental Roma.

They pretty much moved into houses, got jobs, and are disappearing.

It may sound sad if you’re a weird romantic but it’s an actual success story.

 

[latinlover]

I think most the romanichal just integrated into regular society after the Irish travellers ruined everything.

You’ll meet them very occasionally and they’ll be proud of being from “old gypsy stock” (a term I’ve heard them use) but they hate travellers and continental Roma.

They pretty much moved into houses, got jobs, and are disappearing.

It may sound sad if you’re a weird romantic but it’s an actual success story.

Which could explain some of them being white-ish. Most of these fringe ethnic groups integrating into society properly results in intermarriages, which bleaches them out in a couple generations.

Honestly, good on them.

 

[Male Idiot]

I am not sure if they even count as gypsies.

This thread should be about the vilest form of pajeet to stain the Earth.

Romanchials seem like britbong hobbits, and Irish teavellers are irish so potato niggerz. What they are not is pajeets.
Maybe they could get their own discussion?

 

[Doctor Love]

They pretty much moved into houses, got jobs, and are disappearing.

>man who voted for Tony Blair is proud that the native cultures are being wiped out

You continually find new ways to gross me out. Is this a new kind of fedposting? Make everyone so disgusted with the average Bong that nobody will fight for their country?

Again, the romanichal seem OK and not cause too much trouble, but I do think you're attributing far more romantic mystery to them than necessary.

It's not romanticisation, or a success story. They were thrown to the wolves and had no way of defending themselves. That's what I'm saying - the Roma problem has gotten worse because the good ones got forced out.

IT's absolutely do cause trouble - not as a culture, but because of the Troubles. They're a bit like those Japanese soldiers who stayed in the jungle because they never learned that the were was over.

Most Brits are terrified of a few things - guns, license agents, being called r a c i s t, and Irish Travellers. You can walk over them, they'll just blog about it.

Maybe they could get their own discussion?

It's hard because the Roma problem is relatively new to the English-speaking world. The "American Gypsies" and all the English romanticism about gypsies is based off of the English subset, which is gone.

 

[Male Idiot]

Don't call them that fake ass fag name.

Call them czigany or any variant, gypjeets, pajeetus europitecus.

Since the thread was made after people wanted to move my gypsy hate from the Pajeet thread, these two groups may benefit from their own threads.

Romanchials seem like they aren't troublesome, and irish travellers are just potato wigger, closer to mutt rednecks.

 

[FedPostalService]

native cultures are being wiped out

You continually find new ways to gross me out. Is this a new kind of fedposting? Make everyone so disgusted with the average Bong that nobody will fight for their country?

We’ve already been banned from one thread for gay slap fighting. Give it a rest or kill yourself please.

I’ll no longer respond to any of your posts.

Have fun.

 

[Doctor Love]

We’ve already been banned from one thread for gay slap fighting. Give it a rest or kill yourself please.

I’ll no longer respond to any of your posts.

Have fun.

Fun fact - you can judge the moral character of a man by his willingness to back his shit up on an internet forum, something with scant few consequences.

This is generally the problem nationwide regarding Irish Travellers. The answers are simple, they just take more than 30 seconds of vague understanding.

Romanchials seem like they aren't troublesome, and irish travellers are just potato wigger, closer to mutt rednecks.

actually yeah, redneck is a good comparison. I just feel really bad for the Romanichal - if the rest of the gypsies were the same way, nobody would have a problem. Instead of just throwing the baby out with the bathwater, they put it all into a blender and decided that if you were against it, you were racist.

Call them czigany or any variant, gypjeets, pajeetus europitecus.

Zigeuner is a better one. It sounds close enough to the other European words. It's surprising how many times I've had to explain the difference to Euros. But respectfully, nah, I'm not lumping in Romanichal with Zigeuner.

You are right in that they're a genuine menace, but you're not selling it well because of folks like certain posters. When you talk about gypsies, you're talking about large clans of violent men with knives who target the defenceless. Murder, kidnap, rape, etc - they do a hell of a lot worse to other nomads, especially the Romanichal.

When you get the English-speaking versions - you get the Blair defence league giving their hot takes on shit they don't understand. As you're probably aware, the European method for dealing with gypsies is to beat the shit out of a few of them and they'll fuck off. This doesn't work for Irish Travellers - Irish Travellers are genuinely extremely violent. It's really funny - I'm in the first generation of men in centuries who didn't spend their childhood taking full punches to the face, with the idea of "if you flinch, you're a faggot" - and we still have a unique culture on top of that, where violence is still an accepted way to settle arguments. It's just a bit softer, now. You can get them out of an area, if you fight and win, but that's really fucking hard to do if you're not willing to swallow a few teeth.

Fortunately for the bongs, the ITs are a natural predator of the Zigeuner. If I had the opportunity, I would let a Clan wander around Hungary to see what happens. As a test, to see which ends up with the better result.

 

[latinlover]

With all due respect brother, I do feel like you're biased here a bit.

The parts where I disagree with your reasoning:

1. The romanichal aren't unique. In Hungary alone there are 5 distinct subgroups of gipsies, some integrated better than others, some are fewer than others, some are more numerous, some got cannibalized by clans from other groups, whatever whatever, they have their own history. Just to name these few: there's the olahs, there's the romanian gipsies (that's their actual name), sintos, beas, olah, and gabor gipsies. Some of them speak their own languages, but they are all fundamentally gipsies. They are pajeets. They share a history of migrating from India during the 11th century or whenever. They share a language. I think it is disingenious to classify romanichal as not gipsies, they are. They might have integrated better, they might not be as bad as travellers, pakis, arabs, or whatever raving hordes of barbarians are currently tearing through bongland, they might be somewhat whiter due to them commonly intermarrying with white folx, but they are at their core gipsies, objectively. I'm not even commenting on it, I'm not saying if it's good, or bad, but that's what it is.
2. I don't have a PhD in medieval english history but classifying gipsies as "native" to the land is a bit generous, don't you think? Sure, you could then say well the anglo-saxons weren't native to the land either, the difference is they built everything on it. They aren't a fringe subgroup of nomads from India who just drive around in their carts and do whatever the fuck, so I think they can get a bit more leeway, that, plus from what I've read the romani weren't actually in Britain until the 15th-16th century. You really can't say they are native to anywhere other than Rajasthan with a straight face.
3. I'm still not sure why you think the irish travellers are any worse than continental gipsies, everything you wrote could be applied to the gipsies, that and much more, much worse.

As you're probably aware, the European method for dealing with gypsies is to beat the shit out of a few of them and they'll fuck off.

Not sure where you're getting this from, if anything throughout the entirety of history we were far too kind and light handed to gipsies. Maria Theresa in the mid 18th century literally outlawed the use of the word gipsy/zigeuner and instead forced everyone to use the term 'neo-peasant'. She built houses and literally by force made the gipsies live in them, also she had a massive amount of scholarships for gipsy children (affirmative action in 1750s or whenever, very cool), and has very strongly encouraged marriage between hungarian and gipsy families. Spoiler: it didn't work. None of it did. They spent 8 centuries in Hungary and had failed to assimilate.

TLDR: I'm not saying irish travellers aren't worse than romanichal, but again: romanichal are as much gipsies as olah, gabor, or whatever other 150 subsection of continental gipsies exist. If they assimilated better, good, but just be honest.

 

[Doctor Love]

TLDR: I'm not saying irish travellers aren't worse than romanichal, but again: romanichal are as much gipsies as olah, gabor, or whatever other 150 subsection of continental gipsies exist. If they assimilated better, good, but just be honest.

No, I'm literally an Irish Traveller by background. The "English" version of Roma are, as you said - genetically closer to English after 500 years of interbreeding. They're not a problem for anyone. Romanichal were actually a positive. The reality is that yes, with special effort, you can have some success outside of an ethnically homogenous block. Some can be fixed. Just, not many, unfortunately, and it's very easy to "undo" centuries of work.

The Romanichal were a British success story that has been driven to extinction by retarded politics. They were doing fine, but the government came along and thought "Well, if it's not broken, let's break it" and shipped in European versions.

Irish Travellers are mostly alright. You will find a direct correlation between the same people who think Irish Travellers pose a threat and the people who think the IRA were the bad guys in Northern Ireland. The reason for most of their behaviour, and the justification for the crimes, is "They started this war, they came to our homes, so why can't we do the same to them?" - they think they're still at war, and honestly, if you listen to the average Brit, it's hard to blame them. My opinion is that yes, that war is still going on, but it's against all white Brits and that the average white Brit is a retard. Which is a surprisingly common view among settled ITs.

Roma, Zigeuner, or whoever - the ones you're talking about are the "rest of them" - I wouldn't differentiate unless there was something very different about them. The British Isles were unique, in that there was already a native nomadic culture that outcompeted them. The reason that there weren't any "hostile Zigeuner" in Britain was the same reason there weren't any in Mongolia - there were a lot of nomads there already, who were a lot stronger than they were.

The difference between ITs and "Zigeuner" is that ITs are still Catholic Europeans. No matter whether they live traditionally, we still have more in common with other Brits than we do with the foreign crowd.

The problem with gypsies in Europe isn't that they live in tents - it's that they think it's okay to rape, murder and rob people. Their entire culture is built around this, as if it's literally their purpose on the Earth. If you had a group of ethnic Hungarians who lived nomadically, they would still never behave like "Zigeuner" (though, they may act like an Irish Traveller) - while if you put "Zigeuner" into a house, they will never act like a Hungarian.

Romanichal are like a distant echo of the original Roma. I'm sure, maybe, somewhere in a distant reach of an ancient European forest, isolated from every other tribe, there is a comparable group to Romanichal. Nothing you would associate with Roma was present - it's like putting a guinea pig in with regular pigs, and then acting shocked when it gets eaten.

Not sure where you're getting this from, if anything throughout the entirety of history we were far too kind and light handed to gipsies. Maria Theresa in the mid 18th century literally outlawed the use of the word gipsy/zigeuner and instead forced everyone to use the term 'neo-peasant'. She built houses and literally by force made the gipsies live in them, also she had a massive amount of scholarships for gipsy children (affirmative action in 1750s or whenever, very cool), and has very strongly encouraged marriage between hungarian and gipsy families. Spoiler: it didn't work. None of it did. They spent 8 centuries in hungary and had failed to assimilate.

Experience with Eastern Europeans. Most of them actually say the same exact things - "your gypsies are white?" and outright refuse to believe that Romanichal are actually a subset of Roma, even when meeting one. Because of my name and how I look, most just refer to me as "Irish"

It explains a lot about Hungary, if you have an "integrated population" - but the problem is a bitter pill to swallow. You, no matter how much you think you know, will never be able to really "command" independent groups. They will never integrate, because from their point of view, you could integrate to their lifestyle. They won't ever see "your way" - and they shouldn't.

They don't need "guidance" - if they're telling you "We want to live on your land, but we don't want to follow your rules" then that means "We want your land, and we don't want you here" - interpret it as such, as if it was any other group invading your territory and demanding you surrender to their will.

 

[01169]

Zigeuner are the fucking worst. They're so transparent in their scammy bullshit but have no shame when someone calls them out on it. They either get mad at you for noticing or just shrug it off and try the next one.

One of the funnier incidents in my hometown was a large gipsy family that used to stay here for a few weeks for a while. They tried their hand in street performance and it was obvious that not one in their troop could sing or play an instrument. However they were there for hours on end and people complained because they couldn't work anymore due to the cacophonic noise terror.

I'm not even sure if they were finally kicked out or just left on their own but I haven't heard anything about them since then.

These people should never have been allowed into modern society. They're nomads after all and if we're not going full Hitler on them there should be reserves for them to wander around and swindle each other. Settling them was a mistake. And having them roam around Europe obviously an even bigger one.

The problem with gypsies in Europe isn't that they live in tents - it's that they think it's okay to rape, murder and rob people. Their entire culture is built around this, as if it's literally their purpose on the Earth. If you had a group of ethnic Hungarians who lived nomadically, they would still never behave like "Zigeuner" (though, they may act like an Irish Traveller) - while if you put "Zigeuner" into a house, they will never act like a Hungarian.

This hits the nail on its head. Just watch documentaries on their slums in the Balkan countries where the governments build them whole city blocks with good ol' Eastern Bloc plattenbau. In a few weeks or months it's all deteriorated and torn to shit because they rip out anything metal to sell. Then they shit into their own apartment buildings. Like right on the staircase.

And I always thought to myself not even some African tribe would shit in front of their hut. Even if you live in a rundown ghetto without sanitary installations. How hard is it to have a designated shitting place? Preferably OUTSIDE.

It's not the place. It's the people.

 

[Yeeted Teet]

But aren't Irish travellers chavs, and these hobbit folk white too? Seems harsh to lump them in with gyppos who make pajeet look like an ubermench.

Pikeys are have the same origins as Irish people but they're genetically distinct as a result of centuries of inbreeding. They're so inbred that they're at risk for a number of genetic diseases, the most striking being Galactosaemia, which stops the baby from being able to digest breast milk. It affects 1 in 450 tinker babies compared to 1 in 36000 normal babies.

Irish Travellers are mostly alright. You will find a direct correlation between the same people who think Irish Travellers pose a threat and the people who think the IRA were the bad guys in Northern Ireland. The reason for most of their behaviour, and the justification for the crimes, is "They started this war, they came to our homes, so why can't we do the same to them?" - they think they're still at war, and honestly, if you listen to the average Brit, it's hard to blame them. My opinion is that yes, that war is still going on, but it's against all white Brits and that the average white Brit is a retard. Which is a surprisingly common view among settled ITs.

No, people hate them because they're violent, entitled, animal abusing scammers with a pervasive culture of thievery who refuse to educate their children and act like they're above the law (and often are above the law, they're too much hassle for the police to deal with). Irish people, who live in Ireland, hate them for these reasons. Many of them didn't always hate them, they started out believing the "it's discrimination and negative stereotypes" line, but quickly grow to hate them after only a few encounters. I know normies and reddit tier lefties in Ireland who practically start sieg heiling and goose stepping at the mere mention of tinkers, and it's 100% a result of their personal experiences with them.

 

[Doctor Love]

Pikeys are have the same origins as Irish people but they're genetically distinct as a result of centuries of inbreeding. They're so inbred that they're at risk for a number of genetic diseases, the most striking being Galactosaemia, which stops the baby from being able to digest breast milk. It affects 1 in 450 tinker babies compared to 1 in 36000 normal babies.

The outbred ones are just Irish. Although, Galactosaemia - isn't 1 in 450 babies like one family? There's about 1400 births per year. That's 3. There are up 3 children with Galactosaemia in Ireland born per year. This isn't "random chance" - these babies are likely directly related without the need for inbreeding.

No, people hate them because they're violent, entitled, animal abusing scammers with a pervasive culture of thievery who refuse to educate their children and act like they're above the law (and often are above the law, they're too much hassle for the police to deal with). Irish people, who live in Ireland, hate them for these reasons. Many of them didn't always hate them, they started out believing the "it's discrimination and negative stereotypes" line, but quickly grow to hate them after only a few encounters. I know normies and reddit tier lefties in Ireland who practically start sieg heiling and goose stepping at the mere mention of tinkers, and it's 100% a result of their personal experiences with them.

I know Brits who are the same way!

They're faggots, for the most part. People whose "hard beliefs" melt away when they get their opportunity for a two-minute-hate. It's genuinely more tolerable to talk about gypsy shit on KF because atleast, here, nobody's too hypocritical and I can point out the obvious.

All of those "Normies and reddit-tier-lefties" should get the shit kicked out of them. They've done fuck all to stop mass immigration, fuck all to stop the housing crisis, fuck all to stop drug addicts shitting in the street. But because they have the opportunity, they really come out with the Pikey question. They are horrible people with no moral qualms about migrants stabbing kids.

I mean, you said it yourself - why would you ever consider a reddit-tier-leftist's opinion on any moral question, when they've been so consistently wrong on every single point? They don't hate gypsies from experience - it's because we're "safe to hate" compared to others. When was the last time gypsies blew up a concert, or pulled down statues or stabbed some kids at school?

 

[Male Idiot]

If only a guy had a solution to the problem. Maybe a painter....

 

[Yeeted Teet]

They don't hate gypsies from experience - it's because we're "safe to hate" compared to others

They hate pikeys because their houses have been burgled by them (sometimes multiple times). They hate pikeys because their pets have been stolen by them to use as bait in illegal dog fighting rings. They hate pikeys because they see underweight horses from halting sites dying on the side of the road. They hate pikeys because they've attempted to scam them with fake construction businesses. They hate pikeys because they've been physically assaulted by them. They hate pikeys because they've worked a job where they've been robbed blind by them or had to deal with fights and destruction of property. They do hate pikeys from experience, most people I know have personally had a negative experience with them. When people who are capable of sticking their heads in the sand about Arabs and Africans will turn around and say they didn't always dislike travelers but they changed their mind because they've never met a good one, your problem isn't that you're "safe to hate". Your problem is pattern recognition.

Stop trying to whitewash Irish travelers, they're rightfully disliked because they cause serious social problems and bring down the standard of living for anyone who lives near them. They may have a different ethnic origin to continental gypsies but as a culture and community they're easily on par.

There are black people and trannies on this forum who don't feel the need to wade into threads about the rot in the communities they come from and try to convince everyone they're just imagining things. If you don't want people to think that about you, live in a way that proves them wrong instead of trying to convince them that their opinions aren't based on facts and personal experience. I have no doubt that you could do it, you're already more literate than a lot of them.

By the way, up to 40% of tinker marriages are between first cousins and it's well established that they're at a higher risk of dozens of genetic illnesses as a result. Even Pavee Point don't deny the level of inbreeding, they just deny that inbreeding causes genetic illnesses in the exact same way that 70 IQ Pakistanis deny it.

 

[Fapcop]

Fuck gypsies. Don’t care in what form. Romanian, Irish, whatevs.

They’re like niggers, except possibly even worse.

I’ve never seen anyone pimping out their own children to beg and steal with the same gusto that gypsies do it with.

Even the most degenerate, crack smoking nigger would likely beat their kids before sending them out to rob tourists.

If only a guy had a solution to the problem. Maybe a painter....

A vegan painter perhaps, with a passion for chocolate and architecture?

 

[Doctor Love]

By the way, up to 40% of tinker marriages are between first cousins and it's well established that they're at a higher risk of dozens of genetic illnesses as a result. Even Pavee Point don't deny the level of inbreeding, they just deny that inbreeding causes genetic illnesses in the exact same way that 70 IQ Pakistanis deny it.

I'm denying it because, as I've explained - most don't travel, anymore.

Either it's an ethnic group, or it's not. It jumps between roughly 750,000 for both islands and less than 50,000 if you use these examples. The Ireland one is interesting - seeing how the number jumped up to 40,000 as soon as the councils started giving bennies to them. Historically, the population was rather evenly spread out across the formerly United Kingdoms.

They hate pikeys because their houses have been burgled by them (sometimes multiple times). They hate pikeys because their pets have been stolen by them to use as bait in illegal dog fighting rings. They hate pikeys because they see underweight horses from halting sites dying on the side of the road. They hate pikeys because they've attempted to scam them with fake construction businesses. They hate pikeys because they've been physically assaulted by them. They hate pikeys because they've worked a job where they've been robbed blind by them or had to deal with fights and destruction of property. They do hate pikeys from experience, most people I know have personally had a negative experience with them. When people who are capable of sticking their heads in the sand about Arabs and Africans will turn around and say they didn't always dislike travelers but they changed their mind because they've never met a good one, your problem isn't that you're "safe to hate". Your problem is pattern recognition.

All of these things apply to a far higher degree to other groups. Fuck me, if this is the shit "Tinkers" get over there, God only knows how you'll handle Somalians.

Like I said. Criminals are criminals - I would genuinely like to know how many of those [alarmingly small numbers being extrapolated] are, firstly, people who were already inbred and jumped in a caravan ten years ago, to avoid getting caught by the police for petty crimes, or to collect state benefits.

Here's a fun fact - by definition, actual gypsies cannot get certification for anything. Because all certifications require a permanent address. So, rather than allow people to get certifications without the need for permanent home addresses, you fucking retards handed out cash to the only people unwilling to get any kind of certifications - no questions asked. How long before we start seeing black and Muslim "pikeys"?

 

[teriyakiburns]

If only a guy had a solution to the problem. Maybe a painter....

There's already plenty of whitewashing going in in the thread. Adding a mural will hardly improve matters.

 

[Yeeted Teet]

Either it's an ethnic group, or it's not

I assume you live in England and I don't know the law there, but in Ireland where they come from, they are legally recognised as a distinct ethnic group. There won't be black or muslim pikeys for that reason, it's an extremely insular and legally protected group that outsiders can't just slot themselves into.

All of these things apply to a far higher degree to other groups.

Lol, African immigrants stealing your neighbour's dog to use as bait in a fighting ring isn't a story that's played out in every village in the country for decades. Other groups have problems but tinkers have some almost uniquely abhorrent and prevalent problems.

Like I said. Criminals are criminals - I would genuinely like to know how many of those [alarmingly small numbers being extrapolated] are, firstly, people who were already inbred and jumped in a caravan ten years ago, to avoid getting caught by the police for petty crimes, or to collect state benefits.

The idea that some non-pikeys from families that just happened to spend a couple of hundred years shagging their cousins are just pretending to be pikeys to get away with a light bit of shoplifting is absolute top tier cope. Ignoring all the other reasons that's delusional, they wouldn't even blend in. Irish Travelers are very easily identifiable by their accents, and often names and appearances. People who don't live around them might not be able to tell them apart from normal Irish people, but people who do can identify them quite readily.

"Alarmingly small numbers" - travelers make up 0.7% of the general population but account for 10% of the prison population. That's a worse over representation rate than 13/50. In women's prisons they can account for 25% of the population.

Here's a fun fact - by definition, actual gypsies cannot get certification for anything.

They can and occasionally do, they either use the address of the halting site their caravans are currently parked on or use the address of a relative's halting site or house. The same way they claim welfare.

 

[Snack Cracker]

Feel kind of lucky that gypsies just aren’t in the areas of the US that I’ve lived in, because they seem awful as a majority.

There wouldn’t be such a push on the left to designate Gypsy as a slur (using Roma instead).

But my thing is there’s gypsies that aren’t Roma from what I’ve read, or they’re very distantly Roma.

Or maybe pure Roma is also blonde hair blue eyes and fair skin, idk.