Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss Thread - Now a Griefing Thread

[nostalgiasorrow]

https://twitter.com/VivziePop/status/1560380194518552576

https://twitter.com/VivziePop/status/1560381956143005696

 

[Vyse Inglebard]

https://twitter.com/VivziePop/status/1560380194518552576

https://twitter.com/VivziePop/status/1560381956143005696

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Y'see, that's the thing about Viv. On the one hand, she's still a bit shaky as a writer (although she HAS improved since her ZP days) and she's still a bit overly obsessed with romantic relationships/musicals in her stories, but then she and her team turn around and give us an awesomely animated fight sequence (looking at you, D.O.R.K.S.), a catchy song, or says something sensible like this, and then I realize that I'd much rather watch one of her shows than any of the Calarts bullshit that's being regurgitated out these days. As long as she keeps the political sperging to Twatter and out of her shows, that is.

 

[Piplup]

Retard daftpina made a video about the "abuse allegations"

 

[Racist Trash]

Retard daftpina made a video about the "abuse allegations"

Dear lord that's a droning voice.

 

[Doctor of Autism]

https://twitter.com/VivziePop/status/1560380194518552576

https://twitter.com/VivziePop/status/1560381956143005696

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I like that Viv still embraces the indie aspect of her series since most creators who go from internet or independent media to the more mainstream success tend to develop quite an ego and forget their origins. Like there is a possibility Viv somewhat has an ego as everyone does but I'm glad she is somewhat humble as a creator and isn't completely up her own ass as of now.

Retard daftpina made a video about the "abuse allegations"

I really don't need to listen to the guy with a voice that sounds like it hasn't finished puberty yet to point out the most obvious bullshit.

 

[Local Degenerate]

To play (literal) devils advocate for pre S2 Stella, she is a noble. In Hell, no less. Reputation is damn near more important than air to these people, and in some cases, literally a matter of life and death. So, to have your husband not only cheat on you, not only cheat on you in your own bed, not only cheat on you in your own bed with a member of the lower class, but to have that fact literally yelled into your face as you need to wipe the taint flavored cake off your face, and the faces of your guests...

Actual wars have been started over less. A hitman is such a minor reaction, I'd almost check if Stella had a fucking pulse after that slap in the face.

But no, as others have pointed out, we can't have a balanced, nuanced character if it might make the gay boys even slightly questionable.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

The more I think about this show the more problems I see with it. Not just with season 2 but with season 1 as well, as things start not to make sense when you start using your brain cells. I feel like I could make an overanalytical critique on this but I won't because: 1) you all probably don't want to read an indepth review, 2) spouting out all the issues is not really going to change anything in regards to the show, 3) it would take a while to compile everything together in a coherent way and I honestly have much better shit to do than write about "horny demon show is not that good".
It's a shame really because the pilot really showed that it could have been much different in a better way. Just fix the formating and editing, and we could have gotten an episodic comedy about the inner workings of a demon assassination group. We see bits of that throughout the show (especially episode 4) but it gets brought down by the repeat of character growth, lore that doesn't add up to anything, and plot points that don't connect together.
It's really funny how I remember and laughed more at the shorter "filler" episodes, instead of the longer story-driven ones.

 

[The Fair Lady]

It's really funny how I remember and laughed more at the shorter "filler" episodes, instead of the longer story-driven ones.

The biggest laugh the show has gotten out of me is still the gnome Santa from episode 4. which I ironically found one of the weakest. It completely took me by surprise and I lost it.

 

[DankSmoker]

The musical numbers are very strongly hit or miss for me. I'm not the kind of guy who likes musical numbers much, but I also don't get too pissed off if a musical number pops up in the middle of something I'm watching either. I've been reasonably impressed by some of the numbers, like Its Okay or of course the big one at the end of S1E7, but for instance the one that showed up in the latest episode felt really low energy, especially for a scene that should have been a big deal for Stolas, regardless of how his relationship with Stella has been characterized.

On a meta level I also think its funny to lump the desire to break out into song in with all the other nasty instincts people in Hell have like murder, theft, sex, drug use, etc since its basically characterizing musicfags as impulsive weirdos, but I'm probably the only person who sees it that way.

The show's lore is in a weird spot right now because Hazbin Hotel is supposed to be the one more steeped in lore. Charlie is part of Hell's ruling class, and just by the basic rules of design and storytelling you have to weave a lot of lore into that kind of character's life since they have to know reasonably well both the rules of their society and its flaws (or some of them anyway). Stolas might as well be idle rich since he doesn't appear to do anything important, while all the other characters in HB are low level dregs. Helluva Boss was designed to not need to explore all of that lore, it was supposed to piggyback on the stuff Hazbin Hotel established. But since Hazbin is still in production limbo Helluva Boss finds itself needing to quickly explain things viewers are otherwise not going to be familiar with.

Short version is the lore in Helluva Boss is something of a problem because its awkward and kind of messy. I like the lore, but I agree its presentation needs to be tightened up. Not everyone has the patience for tedious world-building like I do.

Viv is obsessed with musicals and has made it clear that there's going to be one song per episode, at least in Helluva, so if you can't deal with that then you should seriously stop watching. I'm personally not a huge musical person but I've found that most of Helluva's (and Hazbin's) songs are pretty good and catchy, my favorite thus far being "House of Asmodeus"; this shit gets stuck in my head constantly, I'm not exaggerating. I really enjoyed "Owl in a Cage", as melodramatic as it was. Gave me big Nightmare Before Christmas vibes.

I'm a fan of the lore as well but it's definitely getting a little muddled now.

I don't even hate the musicals, but they are usually sandwiched between some levity. This episode just felt too emo to be fun.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

Alright so this might be a somewhat of a stupid take but...why didn't Stolas just divorce Stella before all this? Like after Octavia was born and didn't have to rely on her mother's teat or whatever, he just be like "bye bitch". He himself states that the only reason why they were married was to produce a precationary heir. The deed was done so he could have just kicked Stella out of the castle at that point. Sure, she probably would have protested but he has more power and authority than her so she really couldn't do much. It doesn't seem like anyone would care except for Stella's family, but again, Stolas has more power than them so he could have dealt with them if they became a huge problem. He wanted Octavia to have a normal, healthy life and the best option for the both of them would be to get rid of such a supposed terrible and abusive person.

Which brings up another point...

How did Octavia not know that Stella was this terrible? She can't be that dumb to not notice the issues between her parents until after Stolas cheated. She had 17 years. That should be enough time to realize that "hmm, maybe my mom is a bitch". She wouldn't even bring up that her father ruined her home because of his cheating then.
Maybe I'm just rambling at this point but so many things just don't add up.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

Alright so this might be a somewhat of a stupid take but...why didn't Stolas just divorce Stella before all this? Like after Octavia was born and didn't have to rely on her mother's teat or whatever, he just be like "bye bitch". He himself states that the only reason why they were married was to produce a precationary heir. The deed was done so he could have just kicked Stella out of the castle at that point. Sure, she probably would have protested but he has more power and authority than her so she really couldn't do much. It doesn't seem like anyone would care except for Stella's family, but again, Stolas has more power than them so he could have dealt with them if they became a huge problem. He wanted Octavia to have a normal, healthy life and the best option for the both of them would be to get rid of such a supposed terrible and abusive person.

They are nobles, so there will probably be some backlash and potential consequences for Stolas's actions. It could be that up to this point, he didn't want to go through with a divorce because of the potential consequences on him and Octavia. Sleeping with Blitzo seems to have given him the balls he never otherwise had.

How did Octavia not know that Stella was this terrible? She can't be that dumb to not notice the issues between her parents until after Stolas cheated. She had 17 years. That should be enough time to realize that "hmm, maybe my mom is a bitch". She wouldn't even bring up that her father ruined her home because of his cheating then.
Maybe I'm just rambling at this point but so many things just don't add up.

My guess, Octavia's the type of bitch who can hide her bitchiness well, so won't know she's one unless she drops the façade, or gets emotional enough to slip up.

 

[The handsome tard]

You know, the world building of Helluva Boss kind of has dark implications for Hazbin Hotel (I mean, I assume both series are still suppose to be canon to each other).

Heaven is kind of implied to not be the best of places, at least not the paradise that is suppose to be. Its implied there is quite a lot of bureocracy, agendas and corruption even up there. And H.H establishes Heaven sends angels to slaughter sinners for the sake of population control once a year (not exactly the nicest thing but back then it didnt seem so bad since, you know, its Hell and its sinners would technically deserve it).

With all of that said, it makes Charlie's mission to redeem sinners so they can go to Heaven a tad weaker, doesnt it? She is basically working for them to go to an only slightly better place that isnt going to try to kill them yearly (because I suppose Heaven doesnt even run out of space like Hell does...either its something not thought through or it can be assumed not enough people have been sent there for that to become an issue). It makes their redemption arcs weaker because some of them might actually be better off in Hell.

Heaven should have stayed more vague or at least actually be a nicer place. I kind of blame Viz for not thinking this through too much, especially since Helluva Boss kind of took over as the main series. Heaven worked better as a mystery, with its angels most likely being pure beings that may be benevolent but arent the type you would want to get on the bad side of (being a demon/sinner and all).

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

You know, the world building of Helluva Boss kind of has dark implications for Hazbin Hotel (I mean, I assume both series are still suppose to be canon to each other).

Heaven is kind of implied to not be the best of places, at least not the paradise that is suppose to be. Its implied there is quite a lot of bureocracy, agendas and corruption even up there. And H.H establishes Heaven sends angels to slaughter sinners for the sake of population control once a year (not exactly the nicest thing but back then it didnt seem so bad since, you know, its Hell and its sinners would technically deserve it).

With all of that said, it makes Charlie's mission to redeem sinners so they can go to Heaven a tad weaker, doesnt it? She is basically working for them to go to an only slightly better place that isnt going to try to kill them yearly (because I suppose Heaven doesnt even run out of space like Hell does...either its something not thought through or it can be assumed not enough people have been sent there for that to become an issue). It makes their redemption arcs weaker because some of them might actually be better off in Hell.

Heaven should have stayed more vague or at least actually be a nicer place. I kind of blame Viz for not thinking this through too much, especially since Helluva Boss kind of took over as the main series. Heaven worked better as a mystery, with its angels most likely being pure beings that may be benevolent but arent the type you would want to get on the bad side of (being a demon/sinner and all).

I actually agree that Heaven should have been kept a more vague force, even if I like the Cherubs. Its better to keep Heaven mysterious in my opinion. In the same vein, the Big Man Upstairs should definitely remain vague, or only hinted at. If he appears, he should only be heard as a voice, which is his most common appearance in fiction. Heaven was far more interesting as an inscrutable paradise. Making Heaven no better than hell is: a) boring, because its been done, and b) a mistake because it means we don't really have anything to contrast hell and Earth (both of which objectively suck) to. The greatness of Heaven should contrast the utter...well, hell of Hell and the blighted sinfulness of Earth. Also, the whole "celestial bureaucracy" thing isn't anywhere close to any actual depiction of heaven in the Christian context. That's more the Chinese afterlife, which is literally described as having a celestial bureaucracy.

 

[The handsome tard]

I actually agree that Heaven should have been kept a more vague force, even if I like the Cherubs. Its better to keep Heaven mysterious in my opinion. In the same vein, the Big Man Upstairs should definitely remain vague, or only hinted at. If he appears, he should only be heard as a voice, which is his most common appearance in fiction. Heaven was far more interesting as an inscrutable paradise. Making Heaven no better than hell is: a) boring, because its been done, and b) a mistake because it means we don't really have anything to contrast hell and Earth (both of which objectively suck) to. The greatness of Heaven should contrast the utter...well, hell of Hell and the blighted sinfulness of Earth. Also, the whole "celestial bureaucracy" thing isn't anywhere close to any actual depiction of heaven in the Christian context. That's more the Chinese afterlife, which is literally described as having a celestial bureaucracy.

It kind of feels like Viz wants to have her cake and eat it in this case. Its fine to have alternatives take on Heaven, but I actually see more of these takes being that "heaven sucks/isnt as great as it sounds" rather than show it as a good place to rest your soul. Back at Hazbin Hotel's pilot, there wasnt anything to imply that Heaven wasnt some perfect location to strive to go to, tho apparently it being far too late for Hell's sinners to ever go there so no one ever bothers ("The chance they had was the one they had up there" as Alastor puts it).

In fact, I know this may sound bizarre but I legit think Helluva Boss kind of over explained its setting a bit too much. I legit prefered if Earth was kept at minimun and Heaven never shown. The former feels too cynical for its own good since one must wonder what is even the difference between Hell and Earth at this point? And Heaven being implied to be not that better than Hell also takes away a lot of the setup of H.H.

I feel like if we consider JUST Helluva Boss and pretend H.H doesnt exist, this might be okay but its clear that the main focus of this setting isnt this demon lord homo drama but the struggle towards finding redemption to those that are beyond it at this point. That is an interesting idea and I was hooked on it but Helluva Boss somewhat dettached direction and H.H taking a stupid amount of time to come out makes you wonder if H.B just hasnt stolen the spotlight at this point and H.H has become the spin-off/afterthought.

I like Helluva Boss but I dont love it like some do, I tend to be more critical towards it, especially with these world building inconsistencies with what should be the main core of this universe. H.B made H.H's setting less engaging to me in a tragic way, because Heaven, as a goal, has been diminished so if one fails at redemption, well it wasnt a big loss then (and most sinners might even prefer the familiar worse existence of Hell than the unfamliar only slightly better one from Heaven).

Edit. H.H is meant to be ultimately a hopeful tale about the struggle towards redemption and how Charlie and Alastor are the representive characters of what they believe in. H.B just feels like a depressing tale of morally questionable characters that exposes that Charlie's quest may be truly doomed before it even started. It kind of feels like the perfect storm to cause apathy on the audience unless they somehow try to retcon Heaven's depiction from H.B (maybe Viz suddenly reveals that the TV show H.H is its own continuity from the pilot/H.B?)

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

The former feels too cynical for its own good since one must wonder what is even the difference between Hell and Earth at this point?

That could actually be really clever if Viz tied it back to actual Christian theology. A common Christian saying is "For the Christian, Earth is the only hell they will ever know, while for the sinner, its the only heaven they will ever know". My main gripe isn't that Earth is terrible, its that hell isn't terrible enough. It is supposed to be a place of eternal torment. Not torture, torment. But I do agree that having Heaven shown to not be much better just weakens the setup of the entire setting.

 

[The handsome tard]

That could actually be really clever if Viz tied it back to actual Christian theology. A common Christian saying is "For the Christian, Earth is the only hell they will ever know, while for the sinner, its the only heaven they will ever know". My main gripe isn't that Earth is terrible, its that hell isn't terrible enough. It is supposed to be a place of eternal torment. Not torture, torment. But I do agree that having Heaven shown to not be much better just weakens the setup of the entire setting.

Yeah, I feel like we are going with the "Theme Park" kind of interpretation here instead of something that is unique but still tied to its sources. I mean, when you tend to show the afterlife, its wise to at least try to tie it thematically with the one you are portraying (like with manga/anime having more buddism styled afterlives, maybe with some Christianity added in for good measure depending on the one).

I dont want to do bad faith arguments against Viz since she is inspirational for having reached this far but it almost feels like Hell and Heaven were just used as a way to use her more monster ish styled designs in an actual setting where they are the norm instead of monsters. And the afterlife being the setting being mostly as an afterthought. Because its legit easier to some people to draw monsters than human characters, surprisingly.

Edit: For the Hell torture part, I feel like the one that feels more tied to actual Hell is the fact that angels come to do a purge on sinners and its easy to conclude that once you are dead in Hell, you are literally gone forever. Oblivion. The Nothingness. I mean, I do imagine sinners would be fucking terrified of being literally erased from existence and that fear would drive some insane. I feel like this version of Hell mostly works when you dont think TOO much about it.

 

[Seventh Star]

At this point I think that if Hazbin Hotel got axed at the pilot I'd be happy with it. I have a feeling that it won't be as entertaining or fun anymore.

 

[Operator Core]

The problem with Heaven and Earth in Helluva Boss is that the show does not take Earth seriously, in turn that may diminish Heaven. Virtually every Human character we've seen in the show is mentally retarded. Humans are presented in the show as hollow, unintelligent and naive. The only serious, well rounded, characters are those from Hell, this includes former humans/sinners.

It is entirely possible our skewed interpretation of Heaven is simply because Helluva Boss does not seem to take these concepts seriously. Heaven is full of seemingly cherub looking, whacky and tight-arse floating animals because that's "funny". Earth is full of stupid humans who mistake a demon for a possum because its "funny".

If/when we see Heaven and Earth in Hazbin Hotel I would strongly suspect both realms are taken far more seriously, and are given more serious characterization. (Though I assume any viewing of Earth in Hazbin Hotel will be character flashbacks during their human lives).

 

[Racist Trash]

It could also be that what we see of heaven is the behind the scenes aspects, the cherubs and deerie are the ones who make heaven work for the souls that get there it doesn't mean that what the souls experience is bureaucracy but it is what the heavenborn deal with, same way that the hellborn deal with the chaotic nature.
Also I assume that Charlie has no idea what heaven is other than it's supposed to be good and safe compared to the fairly dangerous Hell.

 

[Oats12345]

You know, the world building of Helluva Boss kind of has dark implications for Hazbin Hotel (I mean, I assume both series are still suppose to be canon to each other).

Heaven is kind of implied to not be the best of places, at least not the paradise that is suppose to be. Its implied there is quite a lot of bureocracy, agendas and corruption even up there. And H.H establishes Heaven sends angels to slaughter sinners for the sake of population control once a year (not exactly the nicest thing but back then it didnt seem so bad since, you know, its Hell and its sinners would technically deserve it).

With all of that said, it makes Charlie's mission to redeem sinners so they can go to Heaven a tad weaker, doesnt it? She is basically working for them to go to an only slightly better place that isnt going to try to kill them yearly (because I suppose Heaven doesnt even run out of space like Hell does...either its something not thought through or it can be assumed not enough people have been sent there for that to become an issue). It makes their redemption arcs weaker because some of them might actually be better off in Hell.

Heaven should have stayed more vague or at least actually be a nicer place. I kind of blame Viz for not thinking this through too much, especially since Helluva Boss kind of took over as the main series. Heaven worked better as a mystery, with its angels most likely being pure beings that may be benevolent but arent the type you would want to get on the bad side of (being a demon/sinner and all).

Weirdly enough I think Chilling Adventures of Sabrina side this better. Weirdly enough out of the four seasons we never see God or Heaven leaving it unclear what God or heaven is post to be like in the show. We only other see three angels out of the entire of the show. The first two appear in season 2 and well there trying to kill are main characters. Remmber are characters serve the devil who is showing to not be a nice guy.

You know I have to say one show that actually portrayed Heaven and God in a decent light surprisely had to be Lucifer of all shows. I mean compare to Supernatural they had God and Heaven has ultimately good things.

I know just comparing how Heaven and God are portrayed in these four shows that deal heavily with Hell is intresting to be honset