Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss Thread - Now a Griefing Thread

Do you believe that this series will turn to shit?


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Creoles were sort of the original amerimutts, with a mix of European, African, and Native American being pretty common. They really range from looking mostly black to looking mostly white with most somewhere in between. So Alastor being a Creole who passed as white is entirely plausible.
Which could make a very compelling character study. About a man torn between his identity and forced to play a make believe figure on the Radio where nobody can see his face or skin color and make visual assumptions about him.

Alas, once more such nuance is beyond Viv and her band of merry idiots.

I swear complicated issues like race, identity and theology should come with an "adults only" label attached to them and studios should be smart enough to not hand shows claiming to tackle these issues to literal children.
 
I swear complicated issues like race, identity and theology should come with an "adults only" label attached to them and studios should be smart enough to not hand shows claiming to tackle these issues to literal children.

Media aimed at children can tackle these issues, and do so well.

The sad thing is, the adults in charge of making this shit are too immature to deal with the subjects themselves.

It's just like when some of us claim to not want "politics" in our media, we don't really mean it. A lot of media does contain messages that could be interpreted as "political," and can pull it off quite well.

CS Lewis, Louis Sachar, Dave Pikley, Dr Seuss, even JK Rowling are able to insert political messages into their works, even those intended for children.

However, the people I speak of who do it are actually smart enough to do so effectively and intelligently.

The real problem we have is that the people who try to make such content do so very badly. Or they draw upon woke ideology, neo-marxist ideology, or LGBTQP ideology, which everyone knows in their hearts is bullshit, and only adult children (like Vivzie) find it remotely appealing.
 
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Hasn't the pilot been out for 5 years at this point? You'd think if the character was actually intended to be creole it would have been mentioned sometime before he was accused of racism the solution to which was being half creole.
Looks like she first said he was mixed on August 17, 2019.


She rambles a bit before getting to it. She doesn't say Creole specifically until some other interview in 2020 and I believe she said something silly like "mixed-race Creole" when, duh, that's kind of redundant.
About a man torn between his identity and forced to play a make believe figure on the Radio where nobody can see his face or skin color and make visual assumptions about him.
I think he was more concerned with what who his next meal would be.
Sure, but the main issue is that he’s suddenly ‘creole’ after accusations of racism, despite his entire persona being decidedly not Creole, which isn’t a race regardless.
It's a cultural identity, so it wouldn't actually be all that surprising for there to be purely European Creoles or entirely African. There's also what's called "Haitian Creole," which is both a language separate from the usual Louisiana Creole and a group of Haitians who largely joined the larger Creole community. That would be where voodoo entered into it.

Anyway, the mixed race stuff preceded the specifically Creole claim. So I can't really say for sure that it was just a response to racism, or to be more specifically SJW about it, "cultural appropriation" accusations. Alastor was actually one of Vivzie's first characters, long before the pilot actually existed. It still actually makes sense as to why someone who "presents" (I hate that word used that way) as white might be acquainted with people who know voodoo and actually learn it.
 
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She rambles a bit before getting to it. She doesn't say Creole specifically until some other interview in 2020 and I believe she said something silly like "mixed-race Creole" when, duh, that's kind of redundant.
While "mixed-race Creole" does sound redundant it makes more sense than saying "half Creole." I wonder if the fandom heard "mixed-race Creole" and assumed that means Creole is a race.
 
To throw out more ideas for an alternate show, I want an unapologetic racist Alastor who killed and ate black people for same reason Albert Fish targeted black kids: because the authorities would not look into their disappearance.

That was also the reason Jeffery Dahmer targeted black kids.
 
The whole thing Viv says about being ‘mixed’ still means little when taken into a historical perspective, at least from the point of time Alastor lived. In New Orleans during the 20th century a mixed person could be Ango/Italian (the Italians were not well received), or French/Spanish. It’s only been very recently that non Anglo Saxon groups were considered ‘white’. Him becoming a well known radio presenter during Jim Crow as a ‘passing’ person is also dubious. They wanted singing niggers, not hosting ones.

Viv has stated that the closest anyone has come to his human depiction was as follows:
FCD55BF4-FAF4-4B1B-9144-9092C0E20ABD.jpeg
I pass for white in the states, this dude is just white period. I believe this also predates her claims of him being ‘mixed’.

But this is my problem with Viv, she literally can not keep a consistent story to save her life. When writing a character you need to actually do some research into the time periods in which they lived, what their motives are/were. Too much about Alastor doesn’t make sense when you actually break him down.

* He’s a serial killer, but also asexual? I’ve never heard of a single serial killer who didn’t kill for a reason other than psychosexual compulsion. You could say that he got off on control, or was a sadist, but these types of people aren’t asexual, their wires are just badly crossed.
* He’s mixed race, but just happened to make it as a famous radio host in the most racially conscious part of America during the most racially conscious time period, where ‘passing’ was very difficult due to census records and the 1 drop rule (Americans weren’t allowed to self identify race until many decades later). Louisiana had many mixed people, but they didn’t typically get ‘bleached’ because of anti miscegenation laws, if anything they’d get blacker, as we see today.
* He’s Creole, but practices Voodoo, which isn’t something Creoles really do, at least in Louisiana, they’re overwhelmingly Catholic. He also speaks no French, at least according to Viv.

Regardless it’s a ridiculous debate when I have to listen to a 2+ hour stream to find out a white looking character is actually black, when that could have been easily incorporated into the story. I had no doubt Vaggie was meant to be Meztizo and Angel was Italian American, because, well, their character traits made that abundantly obvious.
 
The other fallen angel was because other angels basically ripped off her wings and halo for not wanting to kill a child sinner
This begs another question- why are there child sinners? What does a child have to do to get into hell? And if there are children evil enough to end up in hell, wouldn’t it be a moral failing on Vaggie’s part to not give them the Goblin Slayer treatment?
 
This begs another question- why are there child sinners? What does a child have to do to get into hell? And if there are children evil enough to end up in hell, wouldn’t it be a moral failing on Vaggie’s part to not give them the Goblin Slayer treatment?
Someone linked a few cases a while back. There are a LOT of warped children who have committed extremely heinous crimes.
 
This begs another question- why are there child sinners? What does a child have to do to get into hell? And if there are children evil enough to end up in hell, wouldn’t it be a moral failing on Vaggie’s part to not give them the Goblin Slayer treatment?
To be fair in some branches of christianity, children can be considered sinful for not being baptized.
 
To be fair in some branches of christianity, children can be considered sinful for not being baptized.
Sure, but there aren’t really any characters in Hazbin that could fit the “unbaptized good guy” mold. They all are (or in Pentious’s case, were) bad guys in some way, shape, or form.

Someone linked a few cases a while back. There are a LOT of warped children who have committed extremely heinous crimes.
Fair enough. I just remembered that a lot of sociopaths started out torturing animals as children.
 
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I don't even think the child was a sinner. They look like a resident from the Cannibal Colony and all those people are Hellborn. Yes, you hear me right. We got a demon species of cannibals....

Which begs the question why Vaggie was going to kill a Hellborn since Exorcists aren't supposed to kill Hellborn...so her sparing the child wasn't against protocol...Jesus Christ, that's another tangent I want to bring up...

How the hell are you supposed to tell the difference between a Sinner and a Hellborn? I don't think they have some sort of aura that tells the difference between them. Does an Exorcist just stab a person and if they bleed black blood they just go "whoops, sorry"?

Why even have such a dumb rule? Clearly, the exorcists don't care who they kill, and Charlie would have more of a leg to stand on why she would want the exterminations to cease. The Hellborn are MORE like her people than Sinners, and they're getting stuck in the crossfire of something they don't even deserve.
 
Viv has stated that the closest anyone has come to his human depiction was as follows:
FCD55BF4-FAF4-4B1B-9144-9092C0E20ABD.jpeg
I pass for white in the states, this dude is just white period. I believe this also predates her claims of him being ‘mixed’.
Not quite, she was referring to this one specifically:

While they're obviously similar, the artist in the one I posted intended for him to have a bit of melanin (whether they portrayed that well enough is up to you).

Regardless, re: the Creole shit and a bunch of other issues everyone is mentioning, I chalk it up to Viv just being a shit researcher. She makes choices based on aesthetics and that's it.
 
* He’s a serial killer, but also asexual? I’ve never heard of a single serial killer who didn’t kill for a reason other than psychosexual compulsion.
I've commented on that but in some serial killers, the killing itself replaces sexual behavior, much like the way Son of Sam shot couples making out in cars. He didn't rape them. He just shot them. But it clearly had a psychosexual component.
Regardless, re: the Creole shit and a bunch of other issues everyone is mentioning, I chalk it up to Viv just being a shit researcher. She makes choices based on aesthetics and that's it.
So far as I know he was always from New Orleans, making it at least plausible.
Which begs the question why Vaggie was going to kill a Hellborn since Exorcists aren't supposed to kill Hellborn...so her sparing the child wasn't against protocol...Jesus Christ, that's another tangent I want to bring up...
Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds not being Vivz.
He’s mixed race, but just happened to make it as a famous radio host in the most racially conscious part of America during the most racially conscious time period, where ‘passing’ was very difficult due to census records and the 1 drop rule (Americans weren’t allowed to self identify race until many decades later).
This is a man named Homer Adolph Plessy.
image1-3-e1674869291772.png
He lived in Louisiana and was, in fact, a Louisiana Creole. He was the plaintiff in the case Plessy v. Ferguson which established the "separate but equal" doctrine subsequently abolished in Brown v. Board of Education. "But that's a white man," you might say.

In fact, to get them to throw him off the train so he could refuse to leave and get arrested so he could sue, he had to TELL them he was an octoroon, that is, 1/8ths black.

Had he felt like it, he could simply have rode on that train without anyone commenting on it or even noticing it.
 
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Regardless, re: the Creole shit and a bunch of other issues everyone is mentioning, I chalk it up to Viv just being a shit researcher. She makes choices based on aesthetics and that's it.
I remember about how Viv said that Angel Dust named himself after the drug that he OD'd and killed him, when the only place you would be able to find PCP during the 1940s was in a lab and would certainly be out of the reach of some mafia druggie. Now normally I don't really care about historical details in these types of shows, but having all these characters that lived in completely different time periods and locations could honestly be somewhat interesting if Viv took advantage of that opportunity and at least did basic research on things.
 
I think he was more concerned with what who his next meal would be.
The weird thing is we're not even sure if Alastor was a cannibal in life. The details of his murders are kept purposefully vague. And while Viv herself never said anything on the subject apparently Faustisse (Someone who hasn't worked on the show since 2020 so take it with a pinch of salt I guess.) says that she doesn't think Alastor was a cannibal in life. However as a demon he apparently very much eats people like lesser demons and all that.

Honestly this makes me think back to the whole discussion about how none of the demon designs make any fucking sense and how it would've been better if their designs were based on how they died or who they were in life or something.
Given his somewhat wendigo-esque appearance with that logic Alastor being a cannibal would've make perfect fucking sense. So that's why I can't believe it's true because we all know Viv is allergic to making sense.
I remember about how Viv said that Angel Dust named himself after the drug that he OD'd and killed him
Since I bought it up it's one of the things that always fucking bothered me. Like I know what the answer is but it still annoys me.
I always think "Why the fuck is he a spider? How does that make sense or relate to anything?"
 
@AnOminous
White passing people certainly exist, (*shifts eyes around nervously*), but they’re a bit of an exception, and even then they’re mostly only going to pass socially. The early 20th century was a time where Americans were especially focused on eugenics and race, which is why a lot of this doesn’t add up to me personally, at least based on Alastor’s design, back story, and mannerisms.

Viv could have given us a very interesting character study with this, but it stinks of retcon and deflection. If he’s actually meant to be mixed just say he’s part black instead of keeping it vague, because as someone who’s mixed Berber and Euro, Alastor looks like WASP, and Viv knows it, so she’s dancing around the bush.
I always think "Why the fuck is he a spider? How does that make sense or relate to anything?"
I think it has to do with the mafia being a ‘web’ or something to that effect.
 
@AnOminous
White passing people certainly exist, (*shifts eyes around nervously*), but they’re a bit of an exception, and even then they’re mostly only going to pass socially. The early 20th century was a time where Americans were especially focused on eugenics and race, which is why a lot of this doesn’t add up to me personally, at least based on Alastor’s design, back story, and mannerisms.
I don't know if you've done genealogy but people back then would go to extraordinary lengths to pass as white, even cutting the possible "nigger in the woodpile" out of an ancient Bible that they'd used to keep track of family members for 100+ years. It can be very difficult to find this kind of ancestor. Yes, people were obsessed with race. However, that is also why people would be very, very careful to do anything they possibly could to remove any way anyone could tell they had that one drop.
I think it has to do with the mafia being a ‘web’ or something to that effect.
That's exactly what Vivz said, "web of crime." Also it looks good and lets him shoot multiple guns at the same time. I kind of like that actually.
 
I don't know if you've done genealogy but people back then would go to extraordinary lengths to pass as white, even cutting the possible "nigger in the woodpile" out of an ancient Bible that they'd used to keep track of family members for 100+ years. It can be very difficult to find this kind of ancestor. Yes, people were obsessed with race. However, that is also why people would be very, very careful to do anything they possibly could to remove any way anyone could tell they had that one drop.

That's exactly what Vivz said, "web of crime." Also it looks good and lets him shoot multiple guns at the same time. I kind of like that actually.
Most of my genealogy research comes from my Anglo side because Italians and Libyans weren’t particularly fond of record keeping.

Edit, pushed reply like a sped:

I’d say based on being casually interested in it and having American friends who traced their tree, it was a bit more difficult to pass on paper because the US kept very good records. Many of my American friend’s entire family histories can be traced back to the 1700s easily with the census, which was pretty particular about race. White passing people were an exception, not the norm, which is why African admixture is nearly nonexistent in white Americans today, but the average African American has at least a quarter Euro DNA.

But we’re getting off on a tangent, it’s interest stuff none the less.
 
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