History Buff Thread

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The funniest thing about the Romanovs is the White Movement did not support them or the restoration of the monarchy at all. So, the arguments communists use to justify their execution make little sense. Its even more dubious when you realize the Chinese didn't even do it. Hell, even House Romanov still exists today and they returned to Russia after the fall of the USSR. Many Romanovs did not die simply because they fled the country before the revolution even happened. Communists are largely communists because they have a really poor grasp at history and reality in general.
Fucking thank you for saying it like it is.

I've seen communist post images demonizing the family and even suggesting that Alexei was a retarded kid just for the way he posed in photos and something about a hand movement in the photos. Like, what was the point of insulting a little kid like that? Let him rest in peace and stop smearing his grave like that.
 
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Like, what was the point of insulting a little kid like that?
Because they're edgy kids themselves (you see this even now with how they talk about Gaza), and even the average Russian today thinks the execution was unnecessary and too much. More so, it makes even little sense when you realize these people are suppose to believe humans are products of their conditions.
 
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I wish I knew more about Franz Ferdinand, and what Austria-Hungary would look like underneath his rule. I assume it would have declined more. I lean towards world war one would have happened no matter what.
I've been listening to lectures on WWI recently. One of them mentioned that Franz Ferdinand was a fairly unpopular ruler, and that few expected his death to be the trigger for a war. It was more of a convenient excuse for Austria-Hungary to fuck with Serbia. In light of that, and how unstable the Balkans were, well, I don't like to say "inevitable," but the conditions were such that you'd be safe betting on a world war coming out of Serbia in the next year or two
 
Naser Al-din was such an hilariously incompetent ruler even more so than other Shahs of Iran. Sold most of his lands, rather fuck around with his wives and servants, and was too high on opium to understand what was going on and giving concessions to other nations, even before they asked. Fucker couldn't run his own country well either and left everything to mullahs. While most Qajars were incompetent, he certainly brought it to new levels.
Because they're edgy kids themselves (you see this even now with how they talk about Gaza), and even the average Russian today thinks the execution was unnecessary and too much. More so, it makes even little sense when you realize these people are suppose to believe humans are products of their conditions.
A good portion of modern day communists, especially in the western first world countries, have a "Don't tell me what to do, DAD!" complex, and it's hilarious yet pathetic to watch. None of them read the ideology either, or who they worship. When I was in university, I saw one wearing a trans pride Che shirt, or whatever, and I couldn't help but laugh. Knowing how the actual Che would have put them into camps until they became "real men."
I've been listening to lectures on WWI recently. One of them mentioned that Franz Ferdinand was a fairly unpopular ruler, and that few expected his death to be the trigger for a war. It was more of a convenient excuse for Austria-Hungary to fuck with Serbia. In light of that, and how unstable the Balkans were, well, I don't like to say "inevitable," but the conditions were such that you'd be safe betting on a world war coming out of Serbia in the next year or two
I see, thank you. Even when I was in university, no one really touched on Franz Ferdinand himself.
 
Part 2 of Sparta is somewhat more complex then fascist muscle men that they get painted as, sometimes still by actual historians. Not that I blame them, much of the primary sources for Sparta are Athenian. And as well all know, Sparta and Athens were always the best of friends.

Sparta and Slavery.

Everyone knows about Sparta's famous festival of slave murder, everyone know Sparta's famous secret police, and of course everyone know Sparta's famous xenophobia to non Spartans.

Well the question is, should we know? Sparta has 2 levels of "slaves" and pretty much all of Greece is slave owning so if Athens wants to make Sparta look bad, making them seem much worse of a master than themselves is a goal.

Sparta's 2 levels of slaves basically boil down to one level being not slaves and actually non Spartan Citizens or more broadly Lacedeamon citizens. The people of the local peninsula looked to Sparta as the Hegemonic power, basically through the years of strife with Sparta when they began to look more outward of their local peninsula, Sparta was the "leader". Sparta wouldn't allow these people to be citizens without some work on their part, but they did live in and work in Sparta. They weren't really treated any differently either, they weren't slaves. There is a second group of conquered people that were slaves though, but this is very common in Greece. And guess what... due to the way Sparta handled their laws for citizens, only "slaves" could leave Sparta and conduct business. The slaves did all the work, literally all the work, and were paid by Sparta. They were encouraged to lay down roots and start families, they were integral to the Spartan economy. But they are still a conquered people so Sparta was weary, but they needed them. And from what we can tell, they were treated nearly the same as the Lacedaemon citizens who were under Sparta control. We even have first hand accounts of slaves leaving Sparta on business and being questioned by people in the rest of Greece, "why not just leave" and the answer being "what are you crazy, I'm safe in Sparta, it's my life." There were worse fates for Greeks.

So where is the disconnect?
This is conjecture and applying human nature for me. Pretty much all we know of Sparta is through Athens. The whole 300 Spartans against Persia, that is an Athenian propaganda. They hyped up the Spartans. This also works in reverse. Through events such as the pelopennesian wars, which in reality shaped about 100 years of time (think WW1 and WW2 and how much that effected everything to this day) most of Spartan existence was as Athens mortal enemy. It serves Athens to make them look bad, and they did. When I look at history I see a slanted view.

We leave off where we started:
Did Sparta have a slave murder festival? Maybe, it's probably something similar to any kind of modern Memorial Day or Independence day. Did they go around and kill a bunch of slaves to create fear and obedience. Probably not. We don't have any reliable sources for mass murder of helots. What we have is likely Athenian propaganda that come from around the times of the Pelopennesian Wars. The number 1 source for the best Spartan info we have, Xenophon, doesnt even mention slave killings.
Keep in mind Sparta had its fair share of slave revolts, but Sparta also fielded non-citizen soldiers and "slave" soldiers because at its peak Sparta only had about 10k citizens and obviously more than half that are women. These are not the actions of a people who were terrified of their slaves.

The secret police: part of being secret is people don't really know what they get up to. Xenophon directly states that they are charged with upholding values. Not killing slaves, which was illegal all except for the one day mentioned above. We have accounts that say the secret police acted more as a religious enforcement group and police force, than some shady institutions. They targeted everyone and by targeted I mean they would come down on Spartans, helots, non citizens a like. Sparta was still a military society so things like curfews were not uncommon. Spartans getting drunk and belligerent, that was a secret police matter. Think of them like the Amish have their ways of policing their own.

Spartan xenophobia: ironically sparta yearned to be left alone on their little peninsula. They weren't particularly expansionist. The PeloWars, both times they were forced into them, iirc the first was due to Athenian league encroaching on Lacedaemon, the second and main one is actually pretty humorous. Members of Athens own league came to Sparta and begged them to smack Athens down a peg or two because Athens loved meddling in other people's affairs. Sparta, the great fascist love child for modern day lefties, was actually an insular peace keeping state when on the Greek stage. They were seen as the paradigm of freedom by other Greek states.

More on that later.
 
If I was in Varus' shoes, the Battle of Teutoberg Forest wouldn't have gone down like that.
Do tell. I’d like to know how you would have saved those three legions.

Here’s the battlefield and the formation of the belligerents:

IMG_0950.webp

This is a "history buffs" thread and you're citing Zoomer Historian as an opener?
Without any further confirmations? Hilarious.
You’re darn right. We encourage all people, regardless of age, to take an interest in important historical events. I dare say that it’s even more important for young people to learn true history because they are often bombarded with lies and propaganda by school systems that seek to fulfill agendas that have very little in common with teaching genuine history.

And by all means, if you want to supply any corrections to what you view as erroneous or not sufficiently substantiated information, then you are free to do so.

:lPart 2 of Sparta is somewhat more complex then fascist muscle men that they get painted as
It’s true that the muscle-bound image of Spartan soldiers is definitely false. They would have been endurance athletes: slim, wiry, able to march long distances, and fit to fight long battles without gassing out. The bodybuilder warriors portrayed in the move ‘300’ would’ve had great difficulty walking all the way to Thermopylae.
 
Thread is called History Buff thread. It has only concerned the most discussed points of history. You might as well talk about The Shawshank Redemption in a serious film thread

This is why Historical Images works as a thread. Pick individual points in history, separate from everything else. Talk about a certain time, talk about your hometown. Glen Miller and his band took a shit in your local theater one time? Talk about it
 
Marx seriously considered moving to Texas, in his 20s, to join a utopian, Christian commune community. One underrepresented view of Marx, and Engels, is the fact their affinity towards communism was largely a product of meeting people from those communities. Marx had been a fan of Robert Owen, and was associated with his friends who urged him to move to Texas and join them. Engels wrote an article in 1845 stating these communities were proof communism could work in practice.
 
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Thread is called History Buff thread. It has only concerned the most discussed points of history. You might as well talk about The Shawshank Redemption in a serious film thread

This is why Historical Images works as a thread. Pick individual points in history, separate from everything else. Talk about a certain time, talk about your hometown. Glen Miller and his band took a shit in your local theater one time? Talk about it
Piss off, Tubby. Go start your own thread, Fatso.
 
source/archive

The Israeli Attack on the USS Liberty​


Surviving Sailors Break Their Silence 40 Years After Israeli Attack on US Navy Ship

by PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS 
Hustler Magazine, July 2008

June 8, 1967 — the fourth day of the Six Day War between Israel and Egypt, Syria and Jordan — was a beautiful day in the Mediterranean. The USS Liberty was in international waters off the coast of Egypt. Israeli aircraft had flown over the USS Liberty in the morning and had reported that the ship was American. The crew, in close proximity to the war zone, was reassured by the presence of Israeli aircraft. But at 2:00 p.m. sailors sunbathing on the deck saw fighter jets coming at them in attack formation. Red flashes from the wings of the fighters were followed by explosions, blood and death. A beautiful afternoon suddenly became a nightmare. Who was attacking the USS Liberty and why? The attack on the Liberty was an attack on America.

The Liberty was an intelligence ship. Its purpose was to monitor Soviet and Arab communications in order to warn both Israel and Washington should the Soviets enter the war on behalf of its Arab allies. The Liberty was armed only with four machineguns to repel boarders. Its request for a destroyer escort had been denied.

The assault on the Liberty is well documented. With no warning, the Liberty was attacked by successive waves of unmarked jets using cannon, rockets and napalm. The attacking jets jammed all of the US communications frequencies, an indication they knew the Liberty was an American ship.

The air attack failed to sink the Liberty. About 30 minutes into the attack three torpedo boats appeared flying the Star of David. The Israeli boats were not on a rescue mission. They attacked the Liberty with cannon, machineguns and torpedoes. One torpedo struck the Liberty mid-ship, instantly killing 25 Americans while flooding the lower decks. The Israeli torpedo boats destroyed the life rafts the Liberty launched when the crew prepared to abandon ship, sending the message there would be no survivors.

At approximately 3:15 two French-built Israeli helicopters carrying armed Israeli troops appeared over the Liberty. Phil Tourney could see their faces only 50/60 feet away. He gave them the finger. Surviving crewmembers are convinced the Israelis were sent to board and kill all survivors.

The Israeli jets destroyed the Liberty‘s communication antennas. While under attack from the jets, crewmembers strung lines that permitted the ship to send a call for help. The USS Saratoga and the USS America launched fighters to drive off the attacking aircraft, but the rescue mission was aborted by direct orders from Washington.

When the Liberty notified the Sixth Fleet it was again under attack, this time from surface ships, the Fleet commander ordered the carriers America and Saratoga to launch fighters to destroy or drive off the attackers. The order was unencrypted and picked up by Israel, which immediately called off its attack. The torpedo boats and the hovering helicopters sped away. Israel quickly notified Washington that it had mistakenly attacked an American ship, and the US fighters were recalled a second time.

The USS Liberty suffered 70% casualties, with 34 killed and 174 wounded. Although the expensive state of the art ship was kept afloat by the heroic crew, it later proved unsalvageable and was sold as scrap. Why didn’t help come?

No explanation has ever been given by the US government for Defense Secretary Robert McNamara and President Lyndon B. Johnson’s orders for the Sixth Fleet to abort the rescue mission. Lt. Commander David Lewis of the Liberty told colleagues that Admiral L. R. Geis, commander of the Sixth Fleet carrier force, told him that when he challenged McNamara’s order to recall the rescue mission, LBJ came on the line and said he didn’t care if the ship sank, he wasn’t going to embarrass an ally. The communications officer handling the transmission has given the same account.

A BBC documentary on the Israeli raid reports that confusion about the attacker’s identity almost resulted in a US assault on Egypt. Richard Parker, US political counsel in Cairo, confirms in the BBC documentary that he received official communication that an American retaliatory attack on Egypt was on its way.

The US government’s official position on the USS Liberty corresponds with Israel’s: The attack was unintentional and a result of Israeli blunders. This is the official position despite the fact that CIA Director Richard Helms, Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Assistant Secretary of State Lucius Battle, and a long list of US Navy officers, government officials and Liberty survivors are on record saying the Israeli attack was intentional.

According to Helms, Battle and the minutes of a White House meeting, President Johnson believed the attack was intentional. Helms says LBJ was furious and complained when The New York Times buried the story on page 29, but that Johnson decided he had to publicly accept Israel’s explanation. “The political pressure was too much,” Helms said

US communications personnel, intelligence analysts and ambassadors report having read US intercepts of Israeli orders to attack the Liberty. In one intercept an Israeli pilot reports that the Liberty is an American ship and asks for a repeat and clarification of his orders to attack an American ship. One Israeli who identified himself as one of the pilots later came to America and met with US Representative Pete McCloskey and Liberty survivors. The pilot said he had refused to participate in the attack when he saw it was an American ship. He was arrested upon returning to base.

The Liberty flew the US flag. The ship’s markings, GTR-5, measured several feet in height on both sides of the bow. On the stern the ship was clearly marked USS LIBERTY. Mistaking the Liberty for an Egyptian ship, as Israel claims to have done, was impossible.

Tattered flags show ferocity of the attacks. The Israelis claim the Liberty flew no flag, but two US flags full of holes from the attack exist. When the first flag was shot down, crewmen replaced it with a flag 7 feet by 13 feet. This flag with its battle scars is on display at NSA headquarters at Ft. Mead, Maryland.

Admiral John S. McCain Jr., the father of the current US senator, ordered Admiral Isaac C. Kidd and Captain Ward Boston to hold a court of inquiry and to complete the investigation in only one week. In a signed affidavit Captain Boston said President Johnson ordered a cover-up and that he and Admiral Kidd were prevented from doing a real investigation. Liberty survivors were ordered never to speak to anyone about the event. Their silence was finally broken 12 years later when Lt. Commander James M. Ennes published his book, Assault on the Liberty.

It is now established fact that the attack on the Liberty was intentional and was covered up by President Johnson and every administration since. There has never been a congressional investigation, nor has the testimony of the majority of survivors ever been officially taken. Moreover, testimony that conflicted with the cover-up was deleted from the official record.

Disgusted by the US government’s official stance discounting the survivors’ reports, Admiral Tom Moorer, retired Chief of Naval Operations and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, organized the Moorer Commission to make public the known facts about the attack and cover-up. The Commission consisted of Admiral Moorer, former Judge Advocate General of the US Navy Admiral Merlin Staring, Marine Corps General Raymond G. Davis and former US Ambassador to Saudi Arabia James Akins.

The Commission’s Report concluded:

- “That there is compelling evidence that Israel’s attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew.

- “That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented the US Navy from coming to the defense of USS Liberty by recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue support while the ship was under attack.

- “That surviving crew members were threatened with ‘court-martial, imprisonment or worse’ if they exposed the truth; and [the survivors] were abandoned by their own government.

- “That there has been an official cover-up without precedent in American naval history.

- “That a danger to our national security exists whenever our elected officials are willing to subordinate American interests to those of any foreign nation.”

Why did Israel attack the Liberty? Was something super secret going on that is so damaging it must be protected at all cost?

Some experts believe Tel Aviv decided to sink the Liberty because the ship’s surveillance capability would discover Israel’s impending invasion and capture of Syria’s Golan Heights, an action opposed by Washington. Others believe Israel was concerned the Liberty would discover Israel’s massacre of hundreds of Egyptian POWs, a war crime contemporaneous with the attack on the US ship. Still others believe that Israel intended to blame the attack on Egypt in order to bring America into the war. It is known the US was providing Israel with reconnaissance and that there were joint US-Israeli covert operations against the Arabs that Washington was desperate to keep secret.

Survivors with whom I spoke said the attack was the easy part of the experience. The hard part has been living with 40 years of official cover-up and betrayal by the US government. One survivor said that he was asked to leave his Baptist church when he spoke about the Liberty, because the minister and fellow church-goers felt more loyalty to Israel than to a member of the congregation who had served his country. His church’s position was that if our government believed Israel, the survivors should also.

Survivor Phil Tourney said that “being forced to live with a cover-up is like being raped and no one will believe you.” Survivor Gary Brummett said he “feels like someone who has been locked up for 40 years on a wrongful conviction.” Until the US government acknowledges the truth of the attack, Brummett says the survivors are forced to live with the anger and dismay of being betrayed by the country they served.

Survivor Bryce Lockwood has been angry for 40 years. The torpedo that killed his shipmates, wrecked his ship and damaged his health was made in the USA.

Survivor Ernie Gallo told me he “has been haunted for four decades” by the knowledge that his commander-in-chief recalled the US fighters that could have prevented most of the Liberty‘s casualties.

Every American should be troubled by the fact that the President of the United States and the Secretary of Defense prevented the US Sixth Fleet from protecting a US Navy ship and its 294-man crew from foreign attack. They should also be troubled that the President ordered the Navy to determine the attack was unintentional.

This article is based entirely on doumented sources and on interviews with six USS Liberty survivors, as well as Captain Ward Boston and Bill Knutson, the executive officer of the USS America fighter squadron dispatched on the first aborted rescue mission.
 
Why do all history threads on the internet inevitably turn to Nazi posts? Don't even get me started on the pro communism posts on sites like Tumblr or Reddit.
Because Hitler was right about the importance of ethno-nationalism as a bulwark against globalist communism and people in the west are increasingly willing to discuss it?
 
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