Home Fermentation - Kombucha, Kefir, Kimchi, Sourdough, Yoghurt, etc

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Have you had any off flavors develop or is it still the same? I once kept a yogurt culture for 1 1/2 years and everything was fine until those last 6 months. Very slowly it started to develop this Bitter off flavor. No matter what I tried it just kept getting worse. What's your experience been?
I've maintained my kefir grains for a bit over three years now, they're still going strong and they've never developed any off flavors despite occasional abuse and/or neglect and never sterilizing beyond occasionally washing the jars with soapy water. While the end products of yogurt and kefir are similar, kefir is well known to be more hardy so I can't say my experience would translate into yogurt.
 
I've been fermenting tons of different things for years. I'll make one post here and link threads like beer, mushrooms, etc. The beauty of fermentation is that essentially every food on earth can be fermented one way or another.

When it comes to alcohol, I almost always make liminal brews like metheglin (mead with tea) and braggot (beer with mead) because you will almost never find these at the store. I've found straight beer to be too finicky, wasteful, and boring, though now that I have space, I may make beer just to compost the waste. Honey stores easier in bulk than grains and you can use the same cheap champagne yeast, Saccharomyces bayanus, for everything. My favorite recipe is a metheglin with chaga mushroom tea, which gives the mead a mellow earthy flavor. I bottle referment my brews similar to Unibroue's technique and like to let them age a few years at room temp before drinking them. I've made applejack before, which uses ice to distill apple cider.

Some fermented staples that are great to keep around the kitchen are apple cider vinegar, kombucha, salsa, hot sauce, mustard, and other condiments. The liquids are great for a variety of reasons and easy to make, and the condiments are significantly better than storebought products. Salsa only takes about two days to ferment.

I've done a lot of fermented dairy and found most of it useless except skyr, which is essentially a soft cheese. Hard cheeses are in a class of their own. Kefir or buttermilk could be useful if you make quick breads, but I'd rather keep a sourdough starter, which also qualifies as fermentation. I've only recently found success with sourdough and it's clear that the best way to get funky bread is to feed the starter yoghurt, skyr, or whey.

Editing to mention Carl's starter from 1847, which has its own Wikipedia page; you can obtain a copy for a SASE and a recommended donation. Carl Griffith distributed his great-grandmother's starter from the Oregon Trail for return postage only on Usenet, and when he died in 2000, people from that group volunteered to distribute his excellent 150+ year old starter along the same lines.

I'll mention mushrooms to the extent that fermenting nutrient broth, and using that to directly inoculate small containers of sterilized and highly nutritious substrate, is the way to go (bottle tek). This is especially true if dumping pounds of moldy horse shit into your yard would be suspicious.

Speaking of more advanced ferments, I'd like to explore things that break the substrate down to raw amino acids over a period of years such as miso and soy sauce. I've made one or two abortive attempts at chickpea tempeh. I have not attempted to ferment meat and have so far been disgusted by fermented shark and herring, but I may prepare some jars of pre-browned canned meat.

I knew a goat cheese farmer whose cheese cave had some 20 years of beneficial mold and bacteria in it, who showed me pictures of her goats and granddaughter, and told me that dreams in color come from god and dreams in black-and-white come from the devil. This anecdote's lesson is that you develop a relationship with your microbes over time and they evolve more complex flavors the longer you keep them around, e.g., if you have an old starter or reuse your brine and whey.

I wish I could say that I have an actual recipe, but I can share technique.
That's the tl;dr version of it, and carrots are an essential ingredient in fermented hot sauce.

There's an old beer brand, Grolsch, that's what I recommend. Can sometimes find lots of 50 or 60 on ebay for $20. $5 to replace all the little rubber seals.
Those 355 mL swing top Grolsch bottles are the best for gifts. I just wish they sold them in liters and that the beer itself wasn't shit. It's like buying a jug of Carlo Rossi only to dump the wine and keep the jug.

Here's a great video for the thread.

 
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I knew a goat cheese farmer whose cheese cave had some 20 years of beneficial mold and bacteria in it, who showed me pictures of her goats and granddaughter, and told me that dreams in color come from god and dreams in black-and-white come from the devil. This anecdote's lesson is that you develop a relationship with your microbes over time and they evolve more complex flavors the longer you keep them around, e.g., if you have an old starter or reuse your brine and whey.
No, this anecdote's lesson is that fungus makes you trip balls.
 
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Speaking of more advanced ferments, I'd like to explore things that break the substrate down to raw amino acids over a period of years such as miso and soy sauce. I've made one or two abortive attempts at chickpea tempeh. I have not attempted to ferment meat and have so far been disgusted by fermented shark and herring, but I may prepare some jars of pre-browned canned meat.
Do you have a temperature-controlled chamber for koji growing? Miso and soy sauce both require koji, and in general it's a very useful ingredient that you definitely should grow if you are serious about fermentation. In the Noma guide to fermentation (Very easy to download for free but to be safe I won't post any links) there's a pretty good guide about it, I built mine out of an old fridge that I hooked up to a temperature and moisture controller (Inkbird brand) as well as a heat mat (You can find these in pet stores for reptiles) and a humidifier (I connected the humidifier to a PVC pipe with some holes to make the distribution more even). Obviously you don't have to be as autistic as me but something like that is very nice to have because it's very versatile (Aside from koji you can make black garlic or other blackened fruits, or use it as a dehydrator by connecting a fan to it and setting the heat very high) and will definitely serve you well. You can ferment meat as well (Or any protein actually) by making a garum, to do this you just mix it with a shit ton of salt and leave it in a warm place, skim off the fat as you go and then strain it. But this process lasts really long, so to shorten it you can add koji to it to use the enzymes from it to hasten the autolyse process.

I'll mention mushrooms to the extent that fermenting nutrient broth, and using that to directly inoculate small containers of sterilized and highly nutritious substrate, is the way to go (bottle tek). This is especially true if dumping pounds of moldy horse shit into your yard would be suspicious.
Mushroom growing has always been something I wanted to get into, could you maybe show me some introductory resources (Mushrooms I am most interested in are porcini, morel, dryad's saddle, maitake and chanterelle)? I think my chamber would be fine for this purpose too.
 
Do you have a temperature-controlled chamber for koji growing? Miso and soy sauce both require koji, and in general it's a very useful ingredient that you definitely should grow if you are serious about fermentation.
I have red and white miso, and inoculated koji grains, from South River Miso. I also have a Bio-Rad mini incubator. Miso takes about three years to make so I'm more worried about mold than temperature swings. I've not attempted it yet.

the Noma guide to fermentation
LibGen link, it's okay. Reddit says the book is about process not recipes, which sounds great, thanks. I rarely follow recipes but sourdough is teaching me flexibility and understanding within a recipe, e.g., 650 grams of water per kilogram of flour, and the fermenting dough will tell you when to stop stretching and folding.

Mushrooms I am most interested in are porcini, morel, dryad's saddle, maitake and chanterelle
I regret to inform you that your wish list of cultivated species is rated somewhere between Optimistic and Lunacy. I believe porcini, dryad's saddle, and morels have never been cultivated, though it may be possible to bury morel spawn in a burn or flood zone. Chanterelle is symbiotic with birch trees; I drew up plans to grow a birch sapling in chanterelle spawn, then plant the tree in a bed of spawn. This is feasible but without any guarantee of success and a timeline of years or decades. Maitake can be cultivated but the yield is about 1 lb per 5 lb substrate.

It appears that preliminary efforts to cultivate porcini and morels are underway, but I would rate them as far too labor intensive and experimental for a home grower to attempt, assuming you have a job to attend to.

There are some less common (in the U.S., sadly) gourmet species that you can easily cultivate such as enoki, chestnut mushrooms, king tubers (oyster truffles), lion's mane, shiitake, etc. All of these species will readily fruit on sterilized substrate and you're unlikely to find them fresh at a typical supermarket. It's pretty easy to find gourmet cultures for free on the Shroomery's marketplace board, which requires 50 posts to access.

Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms (GGMM) by Paul Stamets is the Bible of mushroom cultivation. I think his earlier book The Mushroom Cultivator has info about exotic psychedelics like liberty caps and wavy caps. To put it in perspective, only about 100 of an estimated 10,000 fruiting mushroom species have ever been cultivated, and a decent chunk of those are psychedelics.

Bringing it back on topic, carrots are probably the most delightful surprise when it comes to foods to ferment. If you're just starting out, try making fermented carrot sticks as a first project.
 
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I've done a lot of fermented dairy and found most of it useless except skyr
Kefir below fucking bjorkgurt? How dare you!

Jokes aside, you clearly know your stuff so I'm very curious what you mean by useless: is it more about whey production, or the actual skyr as a cooking ingredient? I've posted earlier in the thread about how I let my kefir go under second ferment until it separates and then strain it as a soft cheese, the whey left behind is very active and makes for a great base for other ferments like hot sauce, sourdough, and hooch, at least in my experience.
 
Jokes aside, you clearly know your stuff so I'm very curious what you mean by useless: is it more about whey production, or the actual skyr as a cooking ingredient?
I mean it's useless in terms of my own diet. I would probably consider keeping sour cream, but buttermilk and kefir are not to my liking. Kefir is too sour for its consistency in my opinion, and a cheese masquerading as yoghurt (skyr) is much better and a more filling binder for honey and granola.

Because skyr is cheese, cutting the curd and draining the whey is different; trying to harvest whey from a liquid is like skimming hooch off a sourdough starter, not as effective and contaminated with solids. Whey itself is liquid gold, however, and a traditional Icelandic drink served cold, that quenches thirst better than water.

I could get behind the idea of fermenting kefir longer than usual and straining it through cheesecloth so it's almost like a tangy farmer's cheese. I had never considered that possibility before, thanks.
 
Because skyr is cheese, cutting the curd and draining the whey is different; trying to harvest whey from a liquid is like skimming hooch off a sourdough starter, not as effective and contaminated with solids. Whey itself is liquid gold, however, and a traditional Icelandic drink served cold, that quenches thirst better than water.

I could get behind the idea of fermenting kefir longer than usual and straining it through cheesecloth so it's almost like a tangy farmer's cheese. I had never considered that possibility before, thanks.
You're totally correct about standard kefir, trying to strain the whey off of it is a pain in the ass that uses a lot of effort and time to make a cloudy mess. Letting the secondary ferment go for a while (usually somewhere from 12-24h for me) lets the bacteria really up the acid in the milk and make surprisingly solid curds which behave exactly like a farmer's cheese and are cut and strained the same way to yield soft cheese and a beautiful clear whey. You wouldn't expect it from the taste of kefir, but the resulting cheese is very mild and most of the tang is left in the whey.

I'm also a fan of whey as a drink, I've been making normal un-strained kefir the past couple months because I enjoy it a lot and it's an easier process but talking about the strained version here is making me think of switching it up for the next batch.
 
Miso takes about three years to make so I'm more worried about mold than temperature swings. I've not attempted it yet.
Don't take my word for it but in the Noma guide it says that after about a year miso starts getting a burnt flavor due to slow Maillard reaction (same thing responsible for black garlic). And 1 year is the maximum, on average it takes rougly 3 months. Mold also shouldn't be a concern if you properly proportion salt. It might grow on the top part that is not submerged in the salty tamari but you will be able to just scrape it off since the mycelium won't be able to penetrate deeper (Once again please don't take my word for it though because I am not an expert). And miso isn't something that you need temperature management for, just keep it in a generally warm place and that's enough.
I regret to inform you that your wish list of cultivated species is rated somewhere between Optimistic and Lunacy. I believe porcini, dryad's saddle, and morels have never been cultivated, though it may be possible to bury morel spawn in a burn or flood zone. Chanterelle is symbiotic with birch trees; I drew up plans to grow a birch sapling in chanterelle spawn, then plant the tree in a bed of spawn. This is feasible but without any guarantee of success and a timeline of years or decades. Maitake can be cultivated but the yield is about 1 lb per 5 lb substrate.

It appears that preliminary efforts to cultivate porcini and morels are underway, but I would rate them as far too labor intensive and experimental for a home grower to attempt, assuming you have a job to attend to.
Shame. Well I definitely know morels can be grown just not on commercial levels. Dryad's saddle should definitely be growable because it isn't even a mycorrhizal mushroom. As for the rest I don't even know how to get them at all because online they cost an arm and a leg. Would definitely try to grow dryad saddle or maitake though. The biggest bummer though is porcini, was really looking forward to those.
 
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I'm also a fan of whey as a drink, I've been making normal un-strained kefir the past couple months because I enjoy it a lot and it's an easier process but talking about the strained version here is making me think of switching it up for the next batch.
I find that whey either from cheese or kefir makes a wonderful addition to Limeade strangely enough, it adds a wonderful creaminess to the drink. Think like a less thick lime flavored orange Julius. Does anyone in the thread have out of the ordinary any things they do with fermentation Biproducts? I also like thickening soup with sourdough starter, just as another example.
 
Does anyone know if storing a garum and another ferment in a closely enclosed space is going to impart an off flavor onto said other ferment? I have a black garlic in my fermentation chamber that isn't going to be finished for another couple months but I would like to try making a garum (Maybe beef or chicken wing?), but since I know how much they stink I'm worried it will ruin my garlic. I did wrap it in three layers of foil but still better ask.
 
Last year I grew celeriac without really having a plan for what to do with 20 knobby celery roots at the same time lol.

So I (claim to have) invented Fermented Mirepoix, where I mixed garden celeriac, carrots and onions together with some dill, mustard seed and brine, mostly because I figured the classic base flavours of French cooking would probably meld ok. After 3 months chilling in an airlock in my pantry, the flavours have blended into a mouthwatering combination. Even my kid bugs me for this constantly. Every jar I gave away was consumed within days.

10/10, would recommend, I am growing more celeriac this year basically just to make more of this (I already grow onions and carrots for normal stuff).

When making fermented vegetables, I also toss in a few cherry or apple leaves for tannin/crispiness since it’s too cold to grow fresh laurel bay here.
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Last year I grew celeriac without really having a plan for what to do with 20 knobby celery roots at the same time lol.

So I (claim to have) invented Fermented Mirepoix, where I mixed garden celeriac, carrots and onions together with some dill, mustard seed and brine, mostly because I figured the classic base flavours of French cooking would probably meld ok. After 3 months chilling in an airlock in my pantry, the flavours have blended into a mouthwatering combination. Even my kid bugs me for this constantly. Every jar I gave away was consumed within days.

10/10, would recommend, I am growing more celeriac this year basically just to make more of this (I already grow onions and carrots for normal stuff).

When making fermented vegetables, I also toss in a few cherry or apple leaves for tannin/crispiness since it’s too cold to grow fresh laurel bay here.
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Jesus I thought this thread was dead for good. Anyways looks amazing but what do you mean "I don't know what to do with celeriac"? Make celeriac puree with it and serve it with steak obviously! In general though it is a great vegetable and has a lot of applications in cooking and you can basically use it like you would potatoes. If you are looking for other things to lacto ferment try plums or various foraged mushrooms if you also do that.
 
Jesus I thought this thread was dead for good. Anyways looks amazing but what do you mean "I don't know what to do with celeriac"? Make celeriac puree with it and serve it with steak obviously! In general though it is a great vegetable and has a lot of applications in cooking and you can basically use it like you would potatoes. If you are looking for other things to lacto ferment try plums or various foraged mushrooms if you also do that.
Haha I can use some celeriac at any time, but I grew quite a bit more than I was willing to use at the time. It’s great roasted too.
 
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Anyone here ever try making mugolio? I have a bunch of eastern white pines with green pinecones that are just oozing sap, and I want to try making a batch. I'm mostly confused about what kind of washing is required before starting, and how to not accidentally blow up my jars with CO2 buildup.
 
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Anyone here ever try making mugolio? I have a bunch of eastern white pines with green pinecones that are just oozing sap, and I want to try making a batch. I'm mostly confused about what kind of washing is required before starting, and how to not accidentally blow up my jars with CO2 buildup.
I’ve never heard of this, just looked it up, and now it’s my planned new project for next year, it looks amazing. I make spruce tip syrup and it’s great, but this looks next level.

If you want to ferment stuff and you don’t want to spend a bunch of money, just get a mason jar (I use a half gallon size which is still cheaper than the karsch crocks I use for big batches) and instead of screwing on the sealer ring, just put the sealer disk lid on and put a weight on top of it (another jar of water works fine). You just need a way to let CO2 out without letting air in, this lets the gas escape without too much pressure.

Edit: to avoid messes also make sure to give yourself an inch or two of headroom in the jar, gassiness during active fermentation causes the level to go up and liquid can leak out if it doesn’t have room to expand.
 
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If you want to ferment stuff and you don’t want to spend a bunch of money, just get a mason jar (I use a half gallon size which is still cheaper than the karsch crocks I use for big batches) and instead of screwing on the sealer ring, just put the sealer disk lid on and put a weight on top of it (another jar of water works fine). You just need a way to let CO2 out without letting air in, this lets the gas escape without too much pressure.
I have a whole box of large narrow-mouth jars I plan on using. Do you think loosely finger-tightening the sealer ring would be enough to let it self-burp? I don't want to accidentally put too much weight on top and end up with a glass bomb or put too little and end up with the lid falling off.
 
I have a whole box of large narrow-mouth jars I plan on using. Do you think loosely finger-tightening the sealer ring would be enough to let it self-burp? I don't want to accidentally put too much weight on top and end up with a glass bomb or put too little and end up with the lid falling off.
You won’t have a glass bomb by putting another jar on top, these are meant for things like pressure canning, they can take it! The sealer ring is actually more likely to build up more pressure unless you are diligent about burping it every day.

If you are super nervous, try any method and put the jar inside a plastic pail with a bit of cloth, or a loose lid draped over it, which will contain any mess. I’m all for experimenting if I can minimize the damage of failure.

It will probably be fine though!
 
You won’t have a glass bomb by putting another jar on top, these are meant for things like pressure canning, they can take it! The sealer ring is actually more likely to build up more pressure unless you are diligent about burping it every day.

If you are super nervous, try any method and put the jar inside a plastic pail with a bit of cloth, or a loose lid draped over it, which will contain any mess. I’m all for experimenting if I can minimize the damage of failure.

It will probably be fine though!
Just gonna throw out a link to my favorite fermentation lids again. $10 for 4, they fit wide mouth mason jars and are as worry free as these things get.
 
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Just started the mugolio process! It smelled amazing while picking and rinsing off the cones. I'll say this - a much larger jar and/or smaller cones would have helped me pack it tighter. I probably should have cut up the cones a little, but we'll see how it goes.

Wearing gloves is an absolute necessity here: I tried to be careful, but I still ended up with pine needles glued to my arm hair.

I'll give updates - going to leave these on the porch where it gets warm and sunny and check them daily.
 
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