How do we solve the problem of Islam without violence or acceptance of there intolerant views?

They do stem from more or less the same place, yes. That being said, their respective "evolutionary paths" are fairly different and they all have different purposes, so to speak.

Christianity (the middle child) is, by and large, the religion most receptive to progressive reform. This is likely tied to the fact that it's also incredibly fractious, with dozens and dozens of variations and denominations. Christianity can be tailored into a religion of war, but it is not really designed explicitly for the purpose. Many people cite the Crusades as evidence the Christians are just as bloodthirsty as anyone else - and they fail to remember that the first Crusade was the Pope at the time getting incredibly upset about Seljuk Turks (I think) sacking caravans headed to the Holy Land and murdering pilgrims, and saying "OK, every God-fearing man pick up your damn sword and go collect some heads until they realize we're not to be fucked with." Other Crusades tend to be less defensible, and the outcome of even the first Crusade wasn't exactly a feather in Christianity's cap, but intent counts for something.

Judaism (the eldest) is interesting because it is not particularly missionary in nature. Jews don't really actively seek converts. This is because Judaism is almost as much a tribe (of "God's Chosen") as it is a religion, and honestly they don't always like sharing their cool kids club. Jewish kings of yore were surprisingly bloodthirsty. David himself put more people to the sword than you might think (and then he demanded their foreskins be cut off, what the fuck dude). Judaism's relationship with their God is different as well - one of their most notable figures is actually Jacob, a trickster by nature. Reforms and denominations of Judaism exist, but for the most part they are way less fractious than Christians. Jews can and do occupy a superposition of secularity and religiosity depending on who you talk to. It's strange. They're kind of strange.

Islam (the baby of the bunch) is most notable because it is the Abrahamic that is codified to facilitate using dogma for straight-up war and conquest of unbelievers. Christianity, for the most part, wants to pester you into being its friend. Judaism wants little to do with you. Islam shouts "CONVERT OR DIE" in your face. Islam is somewhat fractious, surprisingly, as there are Sunnis and Shia, and then you have Sufi mystics, and numerous other more locally-oriented schools, traditions and customs, and of course the reformed ex-warmongering-villain-who-actually-is-an-OK-guy sect in the Ahmadiyya (who are treated as heretics by everyone else, of course). Offshoots like Baha'i exist, but not many people know a damn thing about Baha'i anyway. Islam is the religion that reformed in full reverse - it got angrier and fightier with the advent of Salafism and Wahhabism.

But Christian religious doctrine was used to excuse and allow things like the colonization of foreign states. The idea that being Christian made westerners more important/right/good than the "heathen savages" they trampled under their feet was significant in the atrocities that Europeans committed in Africa, to the indigenous peoples of North America and Australia, and so on. They slaughtered and starved and raped thousands upon thousands because they felt their god demanded it. They took children from their parents and tortured them into "accepting" Christianity and European/Christian culture and language, often raping and murdering them whenever they felt like it, allowing them to die of preventable diseases, etc. Furthermore, to bring things into the present day, Christian extremists now commit terror attacks on abortion clinics, Jewish temples, mosques, etc. in the name of their god. You can't really claim that Christianity is nonviolent when these things have been happening for centuries and involve far, far more than just the Crusades.

And as to Judaism, look what they do to the Palestinians in the name of their god. They bomb hospitals, murder children, and try to starve out an entire population. Of course this is not reflective of all Jewish people any more than abortion clinic bombings reflect all of Christianity, but the fact remains that these are Jewish people committing atrocities in the name of their god.

Islam is far from the only Abrahamic religion to play the "convert or die" game, or to be violent to those who are not like them. All other Abrahamic religions have a long, long history of doing the exact same thing.

In conclusion, it is with a heavy heart that I must express my disappointment that no one remembers the Spanish Inquisition.
 
But Christian religious doctrine was used to excuse and allow things like the colonization of foreign states. The idea that being Christian made westerners more important/right/good than the "heathen savages" they trampled under their feet was significant in the atrocities that Europeans committed in Africa, to the indigenous peoples of North America and Australia, and so on. They slaughtered and starved and raped thousands upon thousands because they felt their god demanded it. They took children from their parents and tortured them into "accepting" Christianity and European/Christian culture and language, often raping and murdering them whenever they felt like it, allowing them to die of preventable diseases, etc. Furthermore, to bring things into the present day, Christian extremists now commit terror attacks on abortion clinics, Jewish temples, mosques, etc. in the name of their god. You can't really claim that Christianity is nonviolent when these things have been happening for centuries and involve far, far more than just the Crusades.

This is true. I would note that there are Bible verses that make those colonizers look like real fucking assholes, but Christianity was weaponized in those instances. That being said, I can stab someone with a combat knife expressly designed for hurting people, and I can also stab someone with kitchen shears that were produced with no such intent in mind. Christianity isn't nonviolent - it just isn't really optimized for violence and having moved forward from those days, with things like Vatican II, it's much less inclined to use outright thuggery in order to get its way especially when it can get you to talk to it in exchange for some sort of aid or guidance. The modern abortion-clinic bomber types are actually ENORMOUSLY aberrant for the religion, as Christians really rather prefer standing around and guilting the hell out of you for getting an abortion. Christian extremists going after synagogues and mosques with violence is outright freakish to most, especially since evangelical Christians seem to love the hell out of Israel and the Jews. Christianity, for lack of a better way to phrase it, would rather try and sell you on the deal, even if it can be a bit of a shady dealer at times.

And as to Judaism, look what they do to the Palestinians in the name of their god. They bomb hospitals, murder children, and try to starve out an entire population. Of course this is not reflective of all Jewish people any more than abortion clinic bombings reflect all of Christianity, but the fact remains that these are Jewish people committing atrocities in the name of their god.

I think you misunderstand the root of the conflict there. It's not about Yahweh, it's about land and a kind of Israeli manifest destiny coupled with abject paranoia. Jews these days don't particularly prefer to predicate wars on religious grounds - they prefer the angle of "defending the ever-surrounded Jewish people and state". There are Muslims that live in Israel, and they are somehow not chased out with pitchforks. The Israelis just have ZERO concept of proportional response doctrine and don't care to learn because they figure someone will just make them look like shit anyway. Ever the persecuted, really, but they're not entirely wrong on that count - it's more a matter of what lumps they did and did not really earn, and the score may be impossible to call accurately without pissing off a LOT of people.

Islam is far from the only Abrahamic religion to play the "convert or die" game, or to be violent to those who are not like them. All other Abrahamic religions have a long, long history of doing the exact same thing.

In the modern era? Islam is pretty much the only one still advocating that. No one's totally blameless but Islam got handed a golden opportunity to start looking like pretty nice people in the Ahmadiyya reform sect and right now they do their best to make Ahmadis as miserable as they humanly can. The Christians kind of awkwardly shuffled their feet and put away their swords for the most part, the Jews cling to theirs out of paranoia and exceptionalism (not word filtered, look it up), and the Muslims really, really love swinging theirs around every chance they think they can get.

In conclusion, it is with a heavy heart that I must express my disappointment that no one remembers the Spanish Inquisition.
No one expects it either.

Fucking prove it.
Are you going to tell me that a religion centered around utter submission to the word of God, with religious leaders that are second in authority only to the Prophet and Allah interpreting them with absolute religious authority and commanding submission to those words and their chosen interpretations, that persecutes the everloving shit out of anyone who looks at the Quran crosseyed or suggests new additions... you're telling me this authoritarian nightmare of a creed can't condemn this kind of thing so hard that Muslims would crap their pants with confusion and fear like a Pavlovian response at the thought of raising a sword against an unarmed nonbeliever? This isn't a few lunatics here and there fucking shit up for the rest, because their book and their imam tells them to damn well do it and they're following instructions. This isn't even getting into historical Islam, and the Moorish invasions and the Seljuks and the Ottomans and the slave trade that is STILL ONGOING and the brutal treatment of apostates, atheists, heretics and women.

They're Muslim-ing wrong, or you're Muslim-ing wrong. Which is it?
 
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This is true. I would note that there are Bible verses that make those colonizers look like real fucking assholes, but Christianity was weaponized in those instances. That being said, I can stab someone with a combat knife expressly designed for hurting people, and I can also stab someone with kitchen shears that were produced with no such intent in mind. Christianity isn't nonviolent - it just isn't really optimized for violence and having moved forward from those days, with things like Vatican II, it's much less inclined to use outright thuggery in order to get its way especially when it can get you to talk to it in exchange for some sort of aid or guidance. The modern abortion-clinic bomber types are actually ENORMOUSLY aberrant for the religion, as Christians really rather prefer standing around and guilting the hell out of you for getting an abortion. Christian extremists going after synagogues and mosques with violence is outright freakish to most, especially since evangelical Christians seem to love the hell out of Israel and the Jews. Christianity, for lack of a better way to phrase it, would rather try and sell you on the deal, even if it can be a bit of a shady dealer at times.

The Christian ideology has always been that being Christian makes you holier and better than those who are not Christian, though, so you can't really say it's a pair of kitchen shears when its ideologies make it clear that other people are "lesser" and thus don't matter as much - that kind of rhetoric directly leads to violence.

I really, really dislike the idea that because some Christians don't endorse the behaviors of extremist Christian terrorists and their ilk, that means Christianity isn't violent. These people are Christians, and they are doing things that Christianity condones - there are churches that condone and encourage this behavior and this hatred, so you can't say that Christians disapprove of it. There are loads of religious leaders in Christianity who openly encourage the murder of gay and lesbian people, something which the Bible itself condones. The Bible also condones murdering women who cheat on their husbands, and many other people for defying tenets of the religion. The Pope himself has confirmed that hundreds and hundreds of nuns have been sexually abused at the hands of church leaders, and we all know how many thousands of young girls and boys have been sexually abused and had the church cover it up. If this were not approved of in the church they would condemn it. Those pastors and those leaders would no longer be part of Christianity, they would be condemned. But they aren't.

(And before you say it, yes, I know that due to Christianity being so fractured and having many different sects, it is more difficult to condemn and denounce those who preach evil, violent things. But it can still be done. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it isn't worth doing, if you want to show the world that Christianity is not violent and does not commit or encourage or preach atrocities.)

The Christian church and Christian religion is constantly used to justify violence, rape, and murder. The fact that there are religious leaders - pastors, preachers, etc - who agree with this and promote this shows that it is a systemic problem of all of Christianity, not an isolated problem among one or two disturbed individuals acting on their own. If Christianity would like to purge itself of these hateful people, and reinterpret their Bible so as not to promote the murders of innocent people, they are free to do so, but until they do I will continue calling them out for their words, beliefs and actions.

I think you misunderstand the root of the conflict there. It's not about Yahweh, it's about land and a kind of Israeli manifest destiny coupled with abject paranoia. Jews these days don't particularly prefer to predicate wars on religious grounds - they prefer the angle of "defending the ever-surrounded Jewish people and state". There are Muslims that live in Israel, and they are somehow not chased out with pitchforks. The Israelis just have ZERO concept of proportional response doctrine and don't care to learn because they figure someone will just make them look like shit anyway. Ever the persecuted, really, but they're not entirely wrong on that count - it's more a matter of what lumps they did and did not really earn, and the score may be impossible to call accurately without pissing off a LOT of people.

But the Jewish people of Israel also believe that their god gave them that land / intended for them to have that land, which is a massive part of why the conflict exists.

And afaik Muslims in Israel are often treated as second-class citizens - as are African Jewish people, for that matter, which does not reflect well on Israel as a state.

In the modern era? Islam is pretty much the only one still advocating that. No one's totally blameless but Islam got handed a golden opportunity to start looking like pretty nice people in the Ahmadiyya reform sect and right now they do their best to make Ahmadis as miserable as they humanly can. The Christians kind of awkwardly shuffled their feet and put away their swords for the most part, the Jews cling to theirs out of paranoia and exceptionalism (not word filtered, look it up), and the Muslims really, really love swinging theirs around every chance they think they can get.

No one expects it either.

Islam is also a multifaceted religion with more and less peaceful sects, as you specifically mention, just like Christianity and Judaism. There are many Islamic people who are not violent and who do not practice their religion in a violent way or a way that condones or encourages violence. So why don't you make excuses for them the way that you do for Christianity and Judaism? This is where we disagree: I think all of these religions are wrong. I don't cherry-pick and only go after the "foreign" one while making endless excuses for the others and claiming they're somehow better, so long as we ignore all the terrorism and bigoted murders and whatnot.

What you have to keep in mind when considering the way Islam is presented now is that the entire Middle Eastern region has been destabilized for decades now due to the direct actions of the United States government and other (Christian-based, interestingly) governments - We overthrew the tolerant and progressive government in Iran and put into power a religious zealot! We did that! We invaded Iraq and Afghanistan under false pretenses and destroyed their countries and governments! We opened the door to religious extremism through these actions. We persecute Islam in some countries while allowing religious extremism to flourish in countries that we profit off of a relationship with (Saudi Arabia, for example) and protect those countries from organizations like the UN. The US, led by the Christian right, has had a serious and unforgettable impact on the state of the Middle East. And as many scholars will tell you, issues like political unrest, war, poverty, and so on all lead to increases in religious extremism. So there is that.

The other thing to consider is that, as Westerners (I don't know if you're American but this is especially true to Americans), we only see a biased and extremely negative view of Islam. We are taught and told on the news, in classes, etc. that Islam is a violent and terrible religion, that Muslims are all terrorists, etc. You can see a lot of that kind of ignorant, one-sided stereotyping on this post and hell, on this entire forum. The picture we are shown of Islam through our right-wing media and the word-of-mouth of bigots is not the complete picture of Islam. It is a biased picture intended to make us hate Muslim people and fear their religion.

I don't believe it's as simple as "Islam bad, Christianity/Judaism good". All Abrahamic religions endorse violence and do violence onto others. The only reason you all think that Islam is somehow worse, or that Christianity and Judaism are somehow better, is because the latter have better PR and are (primarily) centered in wealthy, Western countries where the conditions for widespread social unrest and religious extremism don't currently exist - though rates of religious extremism in the US and Europe are on the rise.

All Abrahamic religions should be held accountable for their violence, their words, their beliefs and actions. All Abrahamic religions should be stripped of their societal and governmental power. Not just the one that happens to be mostly brown people (and don't think this has nothing to do with it, it has everything to do with why Islam is singled out).
 
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Muslims believe in one, unique, incomparable God, Who has no son nor partner, and that none has the right to be worshipped but Him alone. No one shares His divinity, nor His attributes.

Christians, on the other hand, follow the Nicene Creed and worship 3 persons as one God. To them, Islamic simple view is a big challenge and a problem that's to be solved.
 
The Christian ideology has always been that being Christian makes you holier and better than those who are not Christian, though, so you can't really say it's a pair of kitchen shears when its ideologies make it clear that other people are "lesser" and thus don't matter as much - that kind of rhetoric directly leads to violence.

The comparison of the knife and the shears was not direct 1:1 with Christianity and any other so much as it was "you can hurt people with lots of different things, the constant is the wielder". The establishment of "holy, holier, holiest, unholy" is discriminatory on purpose of course but there's a jump between "You're lesser" and "I'm going to kill you". Most people (Christians included) would say that a dog is lesser than a man and still condemn the hell out of a man kicking a dog without some really good reason. There's something else that bridges that jump between establishment of "lesserdom" and enactment of violence.

I really, really dislike the idea that because some Christians don't endorse the behaviors of extremist Christian terrorists and their ilk, that means Christianity isn't violent. These people are Christians, and they are doing things that Christianity condones - there are churches that condone and encourage this behavior and this hatred, so you can't say that Christians disapprove of it. There are loads of religious leaders in Christianity who openly encourage the murder of gay and lesbian people, something which the Bible itself condones. The Bible also condones murdering women who cheat on their husbands, and many other people for defying tenets of the religion. The Pope himself has confirmed that hundreds and hundreds of nuns have been sexually abused at the hands of church leaders, and we all know how many thousands of young girls and boys have been sexually abused and had the church cover it up. If this were not approved of in the church they would condemn it. Those pastors and those leaders would no longer be part of Christianity, they would be condemned. But they aren't.

I didn't say Christianity wasn't violent. I said it generally does not prefer violence. This will get brought up in a different context later but a couple crazies can't represent thousands and thousands of people who reject those crazies outright. I know of no specific church that has called for violence - if I had to guess at which ones WOULD, probably baptists as they're very hellfire-and-brimstone in their sermons. WBC isn't a church, they're legal trolls. Catholic pederasty and deviancy is something that has been kicking about for a while and yes, they've been horrifically ineffective at bringing it to heel. There is a notable schism between the Vatican proper and the American Catholic Church, mind you, so fuck only knows how much they'd listen to a hard-line Pope demanding immediate defrocking and excommunication of offenders.

(And before you say it, yes, I know that due to Christianity being so fractured and having many different sects, it is more difficult to condemn and denounce those who preach evil, violent things. But it can still be done. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it isn't worth doing, if you want to show the world that Christianity is not violent and does not commit or encourage or preach atrocities.)

It's more about the good denouncing does, or rather the LACK of it, in both directions. It earns surprisingly little good faith from others to denounce, and it does surprisingly little good at correcting the problem that prompted the denouncement. Catholics might be better equipped for it, as IIRC it might be entirely possible to excommunicate an entire church if the clergy and parishioners were unrepentant assholes, and it would have serious consequences for the legitimacy of that church as a Catholic church. The other denominations? It'd almost be like herding cats to get "Fuck this church in particular" movements going, I think.

The Christian church and Christian religion is constantly used to justify violence, rape, and murder. The fact that there are religious leaders - pastors, preachers, etc - who agree with this and promote this shows that it is a systemic problem of all of Christianity, not an isolated problem among one or two disturbed individuals acting on their own. If Christianity would like to purge itself of these hateful people, and reinterpret their Bible so as not to promote the murders of innocent people, they are free to do so, but until they do I will continue calling them out for their words, beliefs and actions.
Violence, yes. Murder as a subset of that, yes, I can imagine someone retarded interpreting verses in a way that appears to justify killing in the name of God or whatever. Rape makes no sense, though. I don't remember anything that would, even creatively interpreted, be suitable for justifying rape. That's a hard sell. Rapes/molestations that occur are pretty much utterly indefensible with scripture, no matter how you massage it. As for purges, last time the Christian world had a good purge it resulted in the Spanish Inquisition. Do you think only non-Christians received the gentle ministrations of Torquemada? Reformations work better, and Christianity actually does do that a fair amount. Certainly more than the other two. Pace can be glacial, to be sure.

But the Jewish people of Israel also believe that their god gave them that land / intended for them to have that land, which is a massive part of why the conflict exists.

And afaik Muslims in Israel are often treated as second-class citizens - as are African Jewish people, for that matter, which does not reflect well on Israel as a state.

Christians too, actually. Jews are very big on "Israel for Jews". That being said, some Jews might say God gave them that land but from what I gather that happens to be a great excuse and not too much more. The Balfour Declaration gave them that land and last I checked the Brits weren't God.

Islam is also a multifaceted religion with more and less peaceful sects, as you specifically mention, just like Christianity and Judaism. There are many Islamic people who are not violent and who do not practice their religion in a violent way or a way that condones or encourages violence. So why don't you make excuses for them the way that you do for Christianity and Judaism? This is where we disagree: I think all of these religions are wrong. I don't cherry-pick and only go after the "foreign" one while making endless excuses for the others and claiming they're somehow better, so long as we ignore all the terrorism and bigoted murders and whatnot.
It's very multifaceted and yet somewhere in the neighborhood of 66 percent of ALL MUSLIMS WORLDWIDE support Sharia Law, aka the law that justifies stoning rape victims to death, throwing homosexuals from buildings and giving atheists 3 days in a jail cell to convert or get their head chopped off for their temerity. I don't intend to make excuses for any one of them, but credit where credit is due. To call Islam the "foreign" one is a very strange thing to me. They're all foreign to the West. They originated in the Middle East, for the most part, and spread outwards. If you're an American the only "native" religions would be the various flavors of animism practiced by various indigenous tribes. As for their wrongness? I don't think any of them are right. I've been an agnostic-leaning-atheist for decades. Difference between "wrong" and "harmful", though this isn't to say they're not all some mixture of both... but I'm way more worried about the one that has 2/3 of its followers approve of barbaric honor-culture garbage that would make an LDS fundie blanch.

What you have to keep in mind when considering the way Islam is presented now is that the entire Middle Eastern region has been destabilized for decades now due to the direct actions of the United States government and other (Christian-based, interestingly) governments - We overthrew the tolerant and progressive government in Iran and put into power a religious zealot! We did that! We invaded Iraq and Afghanistan under false pretenses and destroyed their countries and governments! We opened the door to religious extremism through these actions. We persecute Islam in some countries while allowing religious extremism to flourish in countries that we profit off of a relationship with (Saudi Arabia, for example) and protect those countries from organizations like the UN. The US, led by the Christian right, has had a serious and unforgettable impact on the state of the Middle East. And as many scholars will tell you, issues like political unrest, war, poverty, and so on all lead to increases in religious extremism. So there is that.
The Shah of Iran was a bit of a dick, and he was actually our guy. There's a reason Iran called us the Great Satan after that revolution came to pass and the Ayatollahs sat their fat asses at the top of the heap. The Iranians made a pretty OK showing of it for a while before the revolution, yes, but we didn't depose the Shah. We were pissed about that revolution to the point where we refused to so much as sell them parts and stuff like Phoenix missile systems for the F-14 Tomcats we sold the old government. Yes, Iran has F-14s. Not many other places got that bird. As for Christians persecuting Muslims? It happens, I'm sure, but to bemoan that while shuffling awkwardly and #notallmuslims about the reverse situation happening WAY more often is very odd to me. Ever hear of the Copts?

The other thing to consider is that, as Westerners (I don't know if you're American but this is especially true to Americans), we only see a biased and extremely negative view of Islam. We are taught and told on the news, in classes, etc. that Islam is a violent and terrible religion, that Muslims are all terrorists, etc. You can see a lot of that kind of ignorant, one-sided stereotyping on this post and hell, on this entire forum. The picture we are shown of Islam through our right-wing media and the word-of-mouth of bigots is not the complete picture of Islam. It is a biased picture intended to make us hate Muslim people and fear their religion.
I live around a number of them. They are not nice people when they've decided they don't like you. They earn the guff they get a lot of the time. No Episcopalian or Methodist or Mormon or Orthodox Jew ever tried to hurt me.

I don't believe it's as simple as "Islam bad, Christianity/Judaism good". All Abrahamic religions endorse violence and do violence onto others. The only reason you all think that Islam is somehow worse, or that Christianity and Judaism are somehow better, is because the latter have better PR and are (primarily) centered in wealthy, Western countries where the conditions for widespread social unrest and religious extremism don't currently exist - though rates of religious extremism in the US and Europe are on the rise.
You're right, and that's why I didn't use qualifiers like good or bad. The reason I think Islam is worse is because they have the track record to prove it and they aren't particularly shy about people knowing that.

All Abrahamic religions should be held accountable for their violence, their words, their beliefs and actions. All Abrahamic religions should be stripped of their societal and governmental power. Not just the one that happens to be mostly brown people (and don't think this has nothing to do with it, it has everything to do with why Islam is singled out).
...Brown people? Oh honey. If you want to know what one of the scariest things on Earth is, try a white Muslim convert with a chip on his shoulder. Lots of brown Christians, and if you get into the Jews there's more than the ostensibly-white Ashkenazim.
 
WBC isn't a church, they're legal trolls.

They are a church as well as being trolls and horrible people. Just because you don't think they're doing things "right" or whatever doesn't make them less affiliated with Christianity. Your posts have an awful lot of "well this Christian group / atrocity / etc doesn't count because Reasons" kind of stuff going on, I hope you notice that. It makes it look like you aren't able to be objective about the issue and have an interest (whether conscious or subconscious) in excusing away Christian wrongdoings and trying to separate Christian wrongdoers from the church so that you can make Christianity look better.

It's more about the good denouncing does, or rather the LACK of it, in both directions. It earns surprisingly little good faith from others to denounce, and it does surprisingly little good at correcting the problem that prompted the denouncement.

It shows that the church isn't aligned with bigots and terrorists, isn't that enough?

Rape makes no sense, though. I don't remember anything that would, even creatively interpreted, be suitable for justifying rape.

Conversion therapy, for one.

That being said, some Jews might say God gave them that land but from what I gather that happens to be a great excuse and not too much more.

Once again, you're making excuses - "oh, they don't really believe this is for god!" - to make a religion look better so that you can set up Islam to look worse by comparison. Many of them probably do genuinely believe that their god gave them that land or wanted them to have it.

It's very multifaceted and yet somewhere in the neighborhood of 66 percent of ALL MUSLIMS WORLDWIDE support Sharia Law

Could I get a source for this, please? I have never seen this number.

To call Islam the "foreign" one is a very strange thing to me. They're all foreign to the West.

You know what I'm talking about. It's not really cute to pretend you don't. The majority of people in white, Western countries are either Christian or Jewish. The majority of Muslims are Middle Eastern and South Asian. This has a large impact on how these religions are seen and how their practitioners are perceived.

The Shah of Iran was a bit of a dick, and he was actually our guy.

I'm actually not going to debate the history with you, because I don't really have the time to look up sources and make sure I have everything in front of me right now, but suffice to say that we do have a long and storied history of sewing dissent in the region.

I live around a number of them. They are not nice people when they've decided they don't like you. They earn the guff they get a lot of the time.

Are people normally nice when they've decided they don't like you? This is just.. racist stereotyping based on personal anecdotes. Not a good look in a debate, man.

The reason I think Islam is worse is because they have the track record to prove it and they aren't particularly shy about people knowing that.

Christianity has the track record as well, but you make constant excuses for them and #notallchristians constantly to try to excuse them.

...Brown people? Oh honey.

If you could please not condescend to me when I'm trying to have a good faith debate, that would be lovely, thanks.
 
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Oh... Sprig is still doing unfortunate things. :(

Political Islam will need to go through some sort of reformation to be compatible with western values in 2019. Perhaps it never will due to cultural differences of where political Islam has power.
 
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They are a church as well as being trolls and horrible people. Just because you don't think they're doing things "right" or whatever doesn't make them less affiliated with Christianity. Your posts have an awful lot of "well this Christian group / atrocity / etc doesn't count because Reasons" kind of stuff going on, I hope you notice that. It makes it look like you aren't able to be objective about the issue and have an interest (whether conscious or subconscious) in excusing away Christian wrongdoings and trying to separate Christian wrongdoers from the church so that you can make Christianity look better.
I don't want to "excuse away" Christian wrongdoings but I won't pretend that they're "just as bad" as Islam. I didn't say anyone failed to count, I said an exceptional and poorly-regarded minority of practitioners supporting exceptional shit like the WBC and LDS fundies and so on are a VERY bad yardstick for the rest of the bunch. Christianity never needed my help to look better than Islam, all they had to do was show up to the party and let Islam do another honor killing or suicide bombing or botched conquest-turned-mass-murder in front of everyone.

It shows that the church isn't aligned with bigots and terrorists, isn't that enough?
For you it might be, but most people want things to actually change and the whole point of a church is to basically establish the most foolproof top-down control system ever. "The biggest, most important person in the entire universe thinks you should fucking knock it off and here's scriptural proof" should mean something to the offenders but it doesn't a lot of the time and it apparently doesn't mean much to onlookers either as a result.

Conversion therapy, for one.
I've heard of it but I cannot FATHOM a scriptural justification for it in any sense. I read the entire damn KJV out of boredom at least once and unless there's a really fucking weird or super-ambiguous passage in there I'm not remembering that can be interpreted to mean "rape them straight" I don't think anyone could say scripture supports that. Idiots will do idiotic things. Muslims prefer tall buildings or forced SRS, which may or may not be worse than rape depending on your personal take.

Once again, you're making excuses - "oh, they don't really believe this is for god!" - to make a religion look better so that you can set up Islam to look worse by comparison. Many of them probably do genuinely believe that their god gave them that land or wanted them to have it.
OK, if you're certain many of them PROBABLY do, then I guess you have a burden of proof here. Something to keep in mind is that, like I said earlier, Jews are Schrodinger's Seculars at times and being Jewish is about as much a tribe as it is a religious affiliation. Lots of "Jewish atheists" about, and it isn't always logically inconsistent when they explain it to you. On the whole, if I had to choose between Islam and Judaism being worse, I'm going to choose Islam because the really backwards Jews like the Hasidic ones that put up signs in NY boroughs commanding women to make way for men and other backwards shit are a definite minority whereas if you pitched the idea of women never having right of way to a lot of Muslims they'd just say "You forgot the part where they need to be escorted by a man and properly covered."

Could I get a source for this, please? I have never seen this number.
This would have likely been the source and someone aggregated it into this

You know what I'm talking about. It's not really cute to pretend you don't. The majority of people in white, Western countries are either Christian or Jewish. The majority of Muslims are Middle Eastern and South Asian. This has a large impact on how these religions are seen and how their practitioners are perceived.
And yet I have no beef with SE Asians of any other given stripe, I have no beef with Semitic peoples in the ME as a race. Let me blow your mind for a minute. If I say I think some of the black Southern churches that have pastors that scream constantly about how horrid teh gay is are not nice people, am I racist or is it cool because I'm validating your hateboner for Christianity?

I'm actually not going to debate the history with you, because I don't really have the time to look up sources and make sure I have everything in front of me right now, but suffice to say that we do have a long and storied history of sewing dissent in the region.
I accept your surrender.

Are people normally nice when they've decided they don't like you? This is just.. racist stereotyping based on personal anecdotes. Not a good look in a debate, man.
Islam ain't a race. I didn't say what race they were. And I've had Christians unequivocally tell me that they thought I was horrible but you know what? They didn't follow that up with physical assault.

Christianity has the track record as well, but you make constant excuses for them and #notallchristians constantly to try to excuse them.
You gonna plead the fifth here as well in regards to not having history books in front of you?

If you could please not condescend to me when I'm trying to have a good faith debate, that would be lovely, thanks.
Your naivete was breathtaking, your assumptions of racism are insulting as hell and nowhere near in good faith, and I'm honestly being nice about it.
Oh... Sprig is still doing unfortunate things. :(

Political Islam will need to go through some sort of reformation to be compatible with western values in 2019. Perhaps it never will due to cultural differences of where political Islam has power.

I was doing ok until she decided to make it about race when it's nothing of the sort. And I don't like people impugning my motives with crap like that.
 
Christianity never needed my help to look better than Islam, all they had to do was show up to the party and let Islam do another honor killing or suicide bombing or botched conquest-turned-mass-murder in front of everyone.

Says the guy making constant excuses for Christianity...

I've heard of it but I cannot FATHOM a scriptural justification for it in any sense.

Well, (Christian) god said stone the gays to death, so I guess they're probably stemming from that.

This would have likely been the source and someone aggregated it into this

That study surveyed, in most cases, less than one-thousand men from each area they went to. That's not a very good sample size to say how all Muslims think, especially as, again, it completely eliminates the majority of Muslim women from the survey. It's deeply flawed.

Irregardless, I never argued that Islam was not harmful. I merely argue that all Abrahamic religions are equally harmful.

After all, don't Christians right here in the US argue for religious law? Say.. abortion bans and life sentences for women who don't want to be pregnant, perhaps? The death sentence for women who cause miscarriage because they can't access abortion? You know, the part where the religious Christian right wants the state to murder women for it?

Your naivete was breathtaking, your assumptions of racism are insulting as hell and nowhere near in good faith, and I'm honestly being nice about it.

You know, you can go on the rest of your screeds without me, I'm sure. You know damn well why I stated that racism is a factor, and your little dance of "I can't be racist because I say I'm not racist" is completely unconvincing. Your condescension and arrogant BSing, along with your repeatedly making excuses for religious extremists of other stripes, is equal parts annoying and stupid. So I'm done for this evening. Have a nice night.
 
I'm not sure voting for changes in law is comparable to engaging in Abrahamic justice. This seems as absurd as saying all Muslims who live in western countries want Sharia Law.
 
Says the guy making constant excuses for Christianity...
Says the woman stanning for Islam. The irony is not lost on me.

Well, (Christian) god said stone the gays to death, so I guess they're probably stemming from that.
Stoning to death = raping straight? Even for religious zealots that would be reaching very, very hard. If this were a "Scripture supports it" thing you'd expect these nutters to be killing gays for God, not trying to "fix" them in the most ass-backwards way imaginable.

That study surveyed, in most cases, less than one-thousand men from each area they went to. That's not a very good sample size to say how all Muslims think, especially as, again, it completely eliminates the majority of Muslim women from the survey. It's deeply flawed.
I'm gonna ask you a question and you're going to think I'm being sexist or something, but how many Muslim women have you met and talked to personally? And it's a better sample size than anything you've submitted thus far. Your move.

Irregardless, I never argued that Islam was not harmful. I merely argue that all Abrahamic religions are equally harmful.
Your obsession with making them EEEEQUAL is bizarre and unnecessary. I can despise dark elements of any given religion in their own right. It's just that there are LOT MORE DARK ELEMENTS IN ISLAM.

After all, don't Christians right here in the US argue for religious law? Say.. abortion bans and life sentences for women who don't want to be pregnant, perhaps? The death sentence for women who cause miscarriage because they can't access abortion? You know, the part where the religious Christian right wants the state to murder women for it?
You should see how Muslims handle such matters.

You know, you can go on the rest of your screeds without me, I'm sure. You know damn well why I stated that racism is a factor, and your little dance of "I can't be racist because I say I'm not racist" is completely unconvincing. Your condescension and arrogant BSing, along with your repeatedly making excuses for religious extremists of other stripes, is equal parts annoying and stupid. So I'm done for this evening. Have a nice night.
You're assuming bad faith and nothing will ever convince you that I'm not acting in bad faith but capitulation to your particular view. That's silly. You're silly. In any event, I was favoring you with a debate, which is clearly not what you wanted. You wanted a pat on the head and a cookie. I apologize for the misunderstanding.
 
But Christian religious doctrine was used to excuse and allow things like the colonization of foreign states. The idea that being Christian made westerners more important/right/good than the "heathen savages" they trampled under their feet was significant in the atrocities that Europeans committed in Africa, to the indigenous peoples of North America and Australia, and so on. They slaughtered and starved and raped thousands upon thousands because they felt their god demanded it. They took children from their parents and tortured them into "accepting" Christianity and European/Christian culture and language, often raping and murdering them whenever they felt like it, allowing them to die of preventable diseases, etc. Furthermore, to bring things into the present day, Christian extremists now commit terror attacks on abortion clinics, Jewish temples, mosques, etc. in the name of their god. You can't really claim that Christianity is nonviolent when these things have been happening for centuries and involve far, far more than just the Crusades.

And as to Judaism, look what they do to the Palestinians in the name of their god. They bomb hospitals, murder children, and try to starve out an entire population. Of course this is not reflective of all Jewish people any more than abortion clinic bombings reflect all of Christianity, but the fact remains that these are Jewish people committing atrocities in the name of their god.

Islam is far from the only Abrahamic religion to play the "convert or die" game, or to be violent to those who are not like them. All other Abrahamic religions have a long, long history of doing the exact same thing.

In conclusion, it is with a heavy heart that I must express my disappointment that no one remembers the Spanish Inquisition.
Evil people will do evil things and justify it through religion, but that doesn't mean the religion itself supports violence. Half the time it's the Clerics who are against senseless violence and torture. Look at the 30 Years War, centuries before European colonization of Africa, the excuse to go to war was religion but the actual reason was people saw a pathway to power, Catholic France, Sunni Ottomans, and Orthodox Russia allied with Protestants because they all wanted to fuck the Austro-Spanish Habsburg Empire that was cucking the rest of Europe at the time.

You're falling for the same propaganda the monarchs used to justify their barbarity.
By the time Europeans rolled up to Africa religion was irrelevant to their political goals, the clerics could bitch and moan all they want but Leopold II was gonna cut off those sweet hands.

Christian Terrorist attacks are so fucking uncommon, they only happen like once every 5 years, meanwhile Islamic Terror attacks happen on the daily in the Middle East and every month a European capital gets bombed, which leads to cunts like Sadiq Khan saying dumb shit like his part and parcel drivel, I wonder why Islamic Terrorism is dead in the U.S.? What does Europe have that the U.S. doesn't that would cause Islamic Terror to happen?
:thinking:
Out of the entire 350 years the Spanish Inquisition was in effect, less than 5,000 people were executed, let me calculate the average execution for each year.
>14 people
Keep, in mind, that's using the HIGHEST estimate of executions, also keep in mind, that the inquisition was in effect throughout their entire empire, Spain, the Netherlands, Naples, Portugal, North Africa, Mexico, the Caribbean, South America, and the Philippines.
5 different continents, 30 million people and less than 14 were executed each year.
I tried to calculate the chance that you would get killed by the inquisition in Spain and it spat out fucking Scientific Notation, that's how low the chance was.

3,000 people died on the September 11 attacks, a single event, compare that to the literal centuries the Spanish Inquisition was in effect.
 
"Execute all Muslims!" I say wearing a Third Position shirt while masturbating to pictures of Brenton Tarrant.

Even if we were to murder all Muslims like a lot of people have suggested in this thread, do you think murdering a quarter of the world's population would solve anything, essentially making huge portions of the world uninhabited? While I do have concerns about Islam myself, I'm nowhere near the 8chan memery that they say about Islam. The thing here is to focus on the ones who grew up here and reform that way instead of autistically blasting Remove Kebab into mosques while you gun down a bunch of brown people. That's no way to go about things.

Rate me dumb all you want, but genociding any group of people doesn't work.
 
"Execute all Muslims!" I say wearing a Third Position shirt while masturbating to pictures of Brenton Tarrant.

Even if we were to murder all Muslims like a lot of people have suggested in this thread, do you think murdering a quarter of the world's population would solve anything, essentially making huge portions of the world uninhabited? While I do have concerns about Islam myself, I'm nowhere near the 8chan memery that they say about Islam. The thing here is to focus on the ones who grew up here and reform that way instead of autistically blasting Remove Kebab into mosques while you gun down a bunch of brown people. That's no way to go about things.

Rate me dumb all you want, but genociding any group of people doesn't work.
I already mentioned it, but if you can destroy Saudi Arabia's clammy grip on it you might be able to get a reform through. I wouldn't say Muslims are evil by default but there is very little good to be found in the ideology as it exists unless you look to the Ahmadi "heresy". You don't need to be evil at heart to do horrible things, frankly, especially if you're convinced what you're doing is downright godly.
 
"Execute all Muslims!" I say wearing a Third Position shirt while masturbating to pictures of Brenton Tarrant.

Even if we were to murder all Muslims like a lot of people have suggested in this thread, do you think murdering a quarter of the world's population would solve anything, essentially making huge portions of the world uninhabited? While I do have concerns about Islam myself, I'm nowhere near the 8chan memery that they say about Islam. The thing here is to focus on the ones who grew up here and reform that way instead of autistically blasting Remove Kebab into mosques while you gun down a bunch of brown people. That's no way to go about things.

Rate me dumb all you want, but genociding any group of people doesn't work.
I don't think anyone who's not an actual retard wants to glass the entire Middle East, people just like joking about stuff.
 
I don't think anyone who's not an actual exceptional individual wants to glass the entire Middle East, people just like joking about stuff.
I'd prefer an utterly bloodless series of reforms but there are many people invested in not allowing that to ever come to pass, and they tend to have a lot of guns and sharp objects.
 
I'd prefer an utterly bloodless series of reforms but there are many people invested in not allowing that to ever come to pass, and they tend to have a lot of guns and sharp objects.
agreed, anyone trying to pass reform in Islam is gonna get assassinated pretty quickly, the only actual lasting solution is conversion away.
 
I like to question Muslims about Mahumid being a pedo and other questionable stuff in Islam. His youngest wife Aisha was 9 years old and he consummated the marriage when she was 12 or 13.

Another ridiculous part of the quran is a passage about politely leaving mahumid's house when you are a guest and not overstaying your welcome and making mahumid uncomfortable.
 
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