How do you cope with a narcissistic mother?

[Meursault's gun]

Step 7: make autistic woman (?) seethe and comb through post history to find things to screenshot

It's interesting that every time you see a man venture here and say something utterly unrelated and useless, they will always have a post history full of shit like yours. You don't even have to comb, you just look up "women" and see this stuff roll in. Very useful.

 

[Hey Johnny Bravo]

So? Assuming they are not literally going to hurt you in some way, their emotions are irrelevant. The point is protecting oneself and managing one's own emotions, not tiptoeing around theirs. How to do that most effectively depends on scenario. Living together and being dependent could be a situation to want to keep the peace, agree - just not at your own expense. And oftentimes blunting their attacks by not rising to the bait (i.e., ignoring the bait and the offense) disarms them and diffuses their emotionality.

No one should be caretaking a narc's emotions, unless it's pretend and done with the purpose of getting from them what you need - and you're absolutely sure you're mentally strong and canny enough to do that.

My point is to "keep the peace," as you say, not to worry about the emotions or needs of a narcissist or borderline person. I will admit that my experience with narcissistic/borderline people required me to "pretend" because these people were vindictive and had the history, means, and willingness to harm me physically. OP already noted that the mother has a history of inflicting physical harm and some batshit people will start physically hitting you if you ignore them. I do not want OP to be physically harmed.

 

[The Magnificence]

This is going to simultaneously sound very progressive for Kiwi Farms and very old-school repressive at the same time, but you are going to need to gray rock with your mother.

What is gray rock? Very simple: You become a gray rock. You make yourself as uninteresting to your tormentor as is possible:

Some techniques a person might use when grey rocking include:

• giving short, noncommittal, or one-word answers
• keeping interactions short
• avoiding arguing, no matter what someone says or does to provoke it
• keeping personal or sensitive information private
• showing no emotion or vulnerability
• minimizing contact, such as by waiting long periods of time before responding to texts or leaving a call as quickly as possible

The specific approach a person uses may vary depending on the situation. For example, a person who knows her mother wants to find a way to insult her weight may avoid discussing clothing or appearance.

You literally do not engage in any discourse beyond what is strictly required nor engage in any behavior that triggers a blowout. You get told you are the bad guy in the relationship? Say nothing. You get criticized for eating chocolate? Then do not eat it. Simple. Exhausting, but simple. At least it will be exhausting in a different way than the current relationship is.

However.

Gray rocking is NOT appeasing. Be careful of that distinction.

Your tormentor may get even worse when you begin gray rocking. They NEED your emotional reaction. Don't bend, do not break.

I would not usually advise this course of action, but in your case it is temporary until you get back out from under her financial control - and do I have to tell you your number one priority is making sure you are NEVER under her financial control again?

 

[Otterly]

You of the opinion that nothing can be done to salvage a relationship with someone who has some kind of narcissistic personality disorder? I've never had to deal with anyone I cared about being like that, save for a few ex girlfriends but who cares about them. None of my family are like this so it's totally foreign to me. Is there nothing that can be done? It makes me sad to think of being forced to just cut out a family member :'[

No I think you can a relationship with them. What you can’t have is a relationship where they have any kind of power or leverage over you. You have to be able to do as @Billy Bob Dick does and be able to smile, say I’m sorry but I won’t stay while you’re doing this and leave.
OP you are in a bind because you are financially dependent. You have two options, stay until you’re done with the MA or try to leave now. Which you do is up to you, but if the first thought that pops up is ‘I can’t’ then maybe think deeper about why - genuinely financial? Or any codependency or fear?
If you leave you can do as billy Bob does - you behave well and when they don’t you say sorry guys, gotta go.
If you stay, you have to find a way of managing the situation in a way that gives the minimum of emotional grimness for you, FOR NOW and that, counterintuitively, may be simply going with the flow for a bit until you’re able to leave. You cannot ever change people like this, they don’t change. There’s no come to Jesus moment where everything is ok. You have to live there, so you have to manage it, and that means you will have to simply become bland. Look up the grey rock technique. I would become busy. Don’t create any situation where triggers can arise and if you see one arising then avoid it. Now avoidance long term doesn’t work but this is simply to get you through until you can leave. Be boring. Friendly but distant.
Once you’re in a position to leave, leave. And then you can do the long term solution which is to engage on your own terms, and be willing to walk off when they act up.
I have had to do this with a family member - I want a relationship with them but I can’t deal with walking in eggshells, suicide baiting and terrible behaviour and they know I won’t take it and they can’t manipulate me - I will warn you the first time they realise this will create a tantrum at a level that might frighten you.
Can you genuinely not leave?

 

[Baumstriezel]

This place is turning into fucking Reddit.

 

[Generic Anime Girl]

in my case, cope about it emotionally and then promptly ignore!

 

[The Crescent King]

@Otterly

Thanks for your reply. My country (Ireland) currently has a terrible housing crisis, where rents are astronomical and buying a house is unfeasible for most working professionals. I do have savings but they would be devoured after only a couple of months rent (for example, my town is quote small but a room would cost 500-700 euro a month not counting bills). I'm lucky in the sense I'm not charged any rent and my mother pays all the bills (hence the dependency), but all the money I saved up goes towards my current daily living and college expenses like my daily commute. Doesn't help that Ireland is one of the most expensive countries in Europe to live in and we have a massive inflation rate thanks to Brexit/Ukraine.

However, I do see the point in what you're saying. I desperately want to be rid of my mother's hold on me, and I'm going to do whatever it takes to save. I applied for two jobs today and sold some old clothes for a decent bit of cash to my grandmother. Searching for a job is my No.1 goal at the moment and I will do whatever's possible to make some money in the interim; I've never asked my mother for money and don't plan to, as I know it'll just be another point of leverage for her.

If push comes to shove I can move in with my grandmother and her partner. They live in a small one-bedroomed bungalow with a dog so I'll be taking the couch with just my clothes, but it may be preferable to living with my mother at some point. My grandmother co-owns the house I live in with my mother (so there's no risk of me being thrown out as she wouldn't allow it) but lives seperately with her partner. Currently my mother is putting on a nice charade by telling her mother how upset she is, but in actuality she's been giving me the silent treatment all weekend and expecting me to apologise to her. I haven't bent and am staying firm, but I'm curious to see what her next move will be as this is the longest I've ever stood up to her without caving.

 

[Otterly]

the silent treatment

Ah yes, I know that one.
Others have mentioned it but get your ducks in a row. I’d move things like your birth certificate, similar docs and anything it’d break your heart to lose to your grandmas place. Quietly, don’t let your mother know that. Just take a box and leave it there
The short term solution is to simply let your mother think everything’s fine. That may require you to just go with the flow, and it’s not doing you good long term but for now, avoid conflict. I would avoid creating a flashpoint before you can walk out. Once you’re ready to go, and she knows you’re going, the waterworks will turn on.
Get those jobs, save up a chunk of money and know you can couch surf with granny for a bit if you have to (not long term in a one bed though) . Then move out.

 

[The Crescent King]

Ah yes, I know that one.
Others have mentioned it but get your ducks in a row. I’d move things like your birth certificate, similar docs and anything it’d break your heart to lose to your grandmas place. Quietly, don’t let your mother know that. Just take a box and leave it there
The short term solution is to simply let your mother think everything’s fine. That may require you to just go with the flow, and it’s not doing you good long term but for now, avoid conflict. I would avoid creating a flashpoint before you can walk out. Once you’re ready to go, and she knows you’re going, the waterworks will turn on.
Get those jobs, save up a chunk of money and know you can couch surf with granny for a bit if you have to (not long term in a one bed though) . Then move out.

About that, I asked my grandmother and she said there's no room for me.
The only potential option I have is one of my uncles who I'm speaking with tomorrow as he lives close to my college campus. Other than that I'm stuck here for the foreseeable, which I anticipate my mother will make as hellish as she can. I'm already planning to spend most of my time out of the house from now on but I'm hoping and praying I can come to a more permanent fix soon!

 

[Otterly]

asked my grandmother and she said there's no room for me.

That’s fair enough in a one bed place. Can she hold a box of your stuff though?

 

[The Crescent King]

That’s fair enough in a one bed place. Can she hold a box of your stuff though?

She said no to that too as whatever storage they have is already full. I'm sure my uncle could take my stuff though if needed as his house is fairly big. I'll know more after I speak to him tomorrow.

 

[Trump's Chosen]

My experience with the narcisist woman in the family is that everyone developed a blindspot for what she did, and people made decisions based on what they thought she would thibk about it.

I'm kinda (morbidly) curious if grandmother really hasn't got space for a box or two, or if she doesn't want to help free you from your mother. Not that I'm advising any course of action, just a reflection that you can check if it's true or not in your case.

When I broke contact with her she ended up doing some things that almost had me get a restraining order, but she stopped just shy of the requirements when she heard through the grapevine I was willing to make it a legal matter. Everyone but one other in the family blamed me for treating her horribly, when all I had done was retreat slowly until I informed her I wished no more contact.

 

[Friend of Dorothy Parker]

She said no to that too as whatever storage they have is already full. I'm sure my uncle could take my stuff though if needed as his house is fairly big. I'll know more after I speak to him tomorrow.

Based on this, I would say that you should be reticent with sharing things with your grandmother as well. :-/. That may be (another) disappointment, but you might not fully understand the dynamic between your mother and her.

And your grandmother may (may) have some triangulation skills as well. Or not, and maybe she just prefers not to be in the middle to a large degree, but your mother is her child, so just be aware of her limitations, for whatever reason they exist.

I'm going to choose to be glad for you that your grandmother was upfront that she could not help you, rather than stringing you along or promising and retracting later. Consider it data. And data equips you to make your own plans.

 

[The Crescent King]

Based on this, I would say that you should be reticent with sharing things with your grandmother as well. :-/. That may be (another) disappointment, but you might not fully understand the dynamic between your mother and her.

And your grandmother may (may) have some triangulation skills as well. Or not, and maybe she just prefers not to be in the middle to a large degree, but your mother is her child, so just be aware of her limitations, for whatever reason they exist.

I'm going to choose to be glad for you that your grandmother was upfront that she could not help you, rather than stringing you along or promising and retracting later. Consider it data. And data equips you to make your own plans.

Yep, I've accepted that my grandmother can't and won't help me either.

I've told my grandmother about some of the horrible things my mother has said about her over the years, but I get the impression that she's on my mother's side. I found talking to her kind of hurtful; I expressed to her a lot of what I wrote in my OP and some other incidents I haven't mentioned, like my mother coming into my room uninvited, telling me that my room is "a gift" she gave me and that I have no right to it, how she was emotionally abusive to one of her ex boyfriends (which she admitted to me once), even how she has discussed her sexual fantasies with me over the years, etc. Tbh because we were so enmeshed growing up I didn't realise how abnormal so much of my mother's behaviour was. My grandmother has even acknowledged that my mother parentified me, but she places the onus on me to forgive my mother and make peace in the house. She also shut down a lot of my feelings - when I told her that I don't believe my mother truly loves me she shut that down immediately, refused to help me pay for a lock on my room, said things I took as enabling like "there's two sides to every story, your mother is my daughter, etc."

I was never that close with my nan and I after today I don't see that changing, as she's too invested in having an appearance of a happy family to really tackle anything substantial. The only other family I have are my two uncles (my mother's brothers) whom I have more faith in to see my mother's behaviour objectively; the older uncle is fond me but has no time for my mother, while the younger one has always been close with us but is probably the kindest person in our family. Even if they can't do anything for me materially I just need someone to discuss this with and will be willing to understand.

I'm even beginning to see my mother's flaws in a different light. She clearly got her mentality from somewhere, and I was struck at how my grandmother could say "I didn't get any sleep last night as I was worried sick about the two of you" while trying to make me reconcile with her. I know my nan feels a lot of guilt concerning my mother's childhood and I think whatever guilt she feels outweighs her sense of obligation to me.

Sorry for the dump - I know it's not this board's culture but my day was exhausting, and I really do appreciate how many decent people are on this small corner of the Internet.

My experience with the narcisist woman in the family is that everyone developed a blindspot for what she did, and people made decisions based on what they thought she would thibk about it.

When I broke contact with her she ended up doing some things that almost had me get a restraining order, but she stopped just shy of the requirements when she heard through the grapevine I was willing to make it a legal matter. Everyone but one other in the family blamed me for treating her horribly, when all I had done was retreat slowly until I informed her I wished no more contact.

I'm truly sorry that you had to endure that. It really is evil the kind of manipulative grip these kinds of people affect on their families, and how so many people in an alleged "family" are more than happy to enable their abhorrent conduct. I don't have anything to say but that you'll be in my prayers, and hopefully I'll be in your position of knowing who truly has my back and being free

 

[Trump's Chosen]

I'm truly sorry that you had to endure that. It really is evil the kind of manipulative grip these kinds of people affect on their families, and how so many people in an alleged "family" are more than happy to enable their abhorrent conduct. I don't have anything to say but that you'll be in my prayers, and hopefully I'll be in your position of knowing who truly has my back and being free

That's an incredibly kind response. I don't think I've ever shared this before except with family or close friends. It's been dealt with emotionally as well as practically, but such a kind response is still completely unexpected.

I wish I had something more helpful to say to you. You seem to be wise enough to seperate the good from the bad advice and I hope the same for as happened to me: when I started trusting my wisdom rather than my intuition and I tried to think of every situation in a mirroring way (would I treat my kid this way, would they accept x from me etc), basicly seeing what I thought was normal if roles were reversed, I could find a path that made me happier, calmer, and more harmonious with those around me.

That's what I wish for you, regardless of the path to get there. There will be grief on the road to get there either way, but it will be worth it.

how she was emotionally abusive to one of her ex boyfriends (which she admitted to me once), even how she has discussed her sexual fantasies with me over the years, etc. Tbh because we were so enmeshed growing up I didn't realise how abnormal so much of my mother's behaviour was. My grandmother has even acknowledged that my mother parentified me

I was about to tell you about enmeshment / covert incest, but it sounds you've informed yourself well.

I don't know how reliable the uncles are. In my experience I found more support from outside the family than from inside it, maybe also because everyone in it had an interest. Asking for help from friends or their families can be a lifesaver. Asking for help of course is difficult if you've been trained to neglect your needs. Sometimes receiving it is harder, because it can be quite painful to receive it from someone other than the person who should have offered it. But if you have the courageous to accept it, it is also very very healing. That was my experience anyways, your mileage may vary.

I'm even beginning to see my mother's flaws in a different light. She clearly got her mentality from somewhere, and I was struck at how my grandmother

That's interesting. In my case this was the prime weapon that was wielded, the abuse my mother had experienced at her stepparent, so I was always making excuses for her. But as adults we have the room to choose who we are and when we have kids all the more so.

I'm mentioning that because you likely have a lot of instincts to defend either (and condemn yourself), because that's usually what parentified children have been trained to do. But you probably know that already.

I hope you manage to assess your family honestly, no more positively or negatively than they deserve, because that means you can best judge the right path for you.

Sorry if it's been asked before. Do you have any friends you can count to house the box with important stuff?

 

[Friend of Dorothy Parker]

I know my nan feels a lot of guilt concerning my mother's childhood and I think whatever guilt she feels outweighs her sense of obligation to me.

Yeah, you've got it - even if your nan is (idk) otherwise great, she has a vested interest in your mom and may feel defensive about it or perceive the things you're saying as somehow a comment (maybe not specifically from you, but in general) on the life/ family/ kids she made. Or none of that and she just thinks people need to figure out/adapt to whatever. Either way, those are her hangups to manage. It's good to recognize other people's limitations - but do not let that disappointment deter you from your focus on your future and taking care of yourself!

 

[Rap Scallion]

General snark and powerleveling aside, OP, I hope you are alright and imagine you are truly at your wit's end if you're asking on fucking KF of all places.

As many others have echoed in this thread: reconcile with the knowledge that this dynamic will probably not change while you are around each other. Maybe it will get better with time and space, it's up to you if you're a forgiving person or feel some empathy toward your mother and it's perfectly fine if not.

Keep your head down, work/study your ass off, and get the fuck out. Take extra courses to graduate early, work a regular job and do some DoorDash bullshit on the side, find an affordable location and go there.

If you're not willing to work a job that's "beneath" you like fast food or Walmart or whatever then you are doomed. Any money is better than no money and if you think otherwise then you are a massive retard.

It's going to suck and you're going to struggle. A lot. Do not pussy out. The goal is to stand on your own two feet and be self-reliant without needing help from others. If you can handle it, great, you can probably handle anything once you have a pragmatic understanding of how difficult flying solo is. On the flip side, how rewarding flying solo is.

Keep yourself occupied. Find something else to study like a trade or a language. Go out. Study or work outside of your home. Start applying for internships and shit. Network early.

Do whatever gay ass hustle you have to do to swim and understand there will be sacrifice that comes from freedom and peace of mind.

 

[Meursault's gun]

She clearly got her mentality from somewhere, and I was struck at how my grandmother could say "I didn't get any sleep last night as I was worried sick about the two of you" while trying to make me reconcile with her.

This could also be mainly generational on your grandmother's end. I've seen this exact same situation, and the grandmother was unwilling to condemn the daughter seemingly because she did not grasp the hold that behavioral patterns had on her; she simply did not grow up with the knowledge of PDs that the younger generations do.

 

[The Crescent King]

@Meursault's gun @Otterly @Friend of Dorothy Parker @Trump's Chosen

Hey everyone, just want to thank you all specifically for the great advice you've given me. I have some updates as to my situation.

This Monday gone my mother ended her silent treatment and "sat me down" as to our argument. It devolved into exactly what I anticipated - a laundry list of everything I had ever done wrong. She started by saying how hurt she was, but she "still loved me". She said that any hurts I have in the past are my own to deal with, that she had already apologised (which isn't exactly true) and that she doesn't intend to revisit them at all. She said that she was "sorry that I felt" that she was always digging at my appearance but that she didn't intend to hurt my feelings, which I find hard to believe. Then she started throwing everything she could at me, like how I lost my job and quit my previous one, that I didn't have a right to my own room as she was the one paying for it, and that I "disrespected my uncle's property" on the trip because when I was getting out of the car I stumbled and the car door tipped off a neighbouring vehicle. Admittedly I got fairly triggered and walked away.

We didn't talk until Wednesday as I learned that I had gotten a job! It's a few hours in the evening cleaning a petrol station. The money is decent but the hours as quite small, however the manager said he could increase my hours if I asked and he was happy with my work. It's a convenient number and I do plan to increase my hours once the busy assessment period passes. I've done two shifts already and will do a third this evening.

On Tuesday I spoke to my older uncle about everything. He wasn't surprised at all at what I was saying, but there was a bit of shock at the depth of my mother's selfishness and some of the details. He said I could leave my stuff with him and even stay for a few days if I wanted, however I wouldn't be able to live with him permanently as he doesn't want to be dragged into the fighting. I accepted that and did feel better after the conversation that someone just listened to me and tried to understand.

Today I spoke to my younger uncle who came down to visit (he was the one we went to see last week). Like his brother he wasn't surprised to hear what I was saying but he wasn't really all that helpful or understanding. Tbh it was kind of a waste of time, and he basically said I was on my own to deal with it. I will ask him at some other date about living with him during my MA. I'm not sure what his response will be. Both uncles suggested therapy for us, and the older one acknowledged that the relationship was irretrievably broken and needed outside intervention. Neither of them seem to grasp that my mother is disordered and will never change really, and I don't plan on trying to salvage any relationship with her. I am open to seeking out individual counselling, but my mother is who she is and will never change. She has no self-awareness and I think any group counselling would inevitably end in tears and angst. My plan will always be to go no-contact once I'm able and that will never change.

My mother and grandmother want to have a big talk once my uncle goes back home. Tbh, I don't see the point of that and have already said no, what with my exams and my birthday being next week. I've been successfully grey rocking my mother since Wednesday and it's been ok; I feel a lot more mental peace not having any kind of contact with her. I still feel raw after our fight and the rather fruitless conversations with my nan and younger uncle. I feel quite tired and sad for no reason and my stress has increased with my exam period comes up, and my birthday is next week and I'm lowkey dreading it. My nan has mediated many "talks" between us and it's all amounted to naught, and I'm not in the mood to listen to my mother's litany of complaints and hurts.

My plan is clear and I won't stray from it. I've accepted that I'm pretty much on my own in terms of family support, but at least I know where I stand. My family has never been that close - no one really keeps in touch. My grandmother never took my out for a day out as child with one or two exceptions. I was close with my younger uncle as thers's only eight years in the age difference, but since he moved out of home he's been quite distant, especially in the last few years as he's become irritable and self-absorbed. While my older uncle was empathetic I never really hear from him from one year to the next, and many of the efforts I've made to be close to him have fizzled out once I stopped initiating. Once my college is finished this year I will start working full time or get a second job and will do everything I can do make as much money as possible to be as independent as I can. I'm not sure what I'm going to do in the very imnediate future except wait it out, but I have some hope for the future where life will be easier.

Thank you all again for the advice, I really appreciated it

 

[Trump's Chosen]

he doesn't want to be dragged into the fighting

This is valuable information. He expects there to be fighting. That's a helpful signal that someone who has known her for longer expects that when he's being supportive to you, that he will receive some form of aggression for doing so. It's one of those landmark moments to remember if you're ever in self-doubt about if it's you who's treating your mother badly instead of vice versa.

Can you imagine raising a stink because someone tries to help someone you care about?

Both uncles suggested therapy for us, and the older one acknowledged that the relationship was irretrievably broken and needed outside intervention.

Typically good psychs help clarify what is tangled. They don't solve issues that are unresolvable. I'd say don't let it get into the way of your more pressing goals.

Saying a relationship is irretrievably broken and needs outside intervention is a bit contradictory: if it's irretrievably broken outside intervention won't change a thing. To me it sounds like he's right about the first part, but it's up to you to judge, as you have more information (and stake).

. I feel quite tired and sad for no reason

What do you mean no reason? Just because the relationship might be irretrievably broken, doesn't mean you can't or won't grieve it. You're doing something difficult. You're making strides going outside of comfort territory. You're putting distance between yourself and mother (and grandmother?). Why wouldn't you be sad and tired? I'm not saying you have to be, but it's very normal thing to feel.

As I'm sure you know, but it's worth remembering, people that are enmeshed with a parent have usually learned to not take their own emotions and feelings seriously. Now in general there is a value in not dwelling on things too much, but enmeshed children typically go to far and often for no reason (it was helpful during childhood in that situation, but not as much after). Do my advice would be: in the long term future when you hear yourself say I feel negative emotion x for no reason, see it as a starting point and look at why you might be feeling it. Learn to take your needs more seriously. I say this kindly and gently, and I hope that's how you'll remind yourself too.

Oh and it's worth pointing out: you don't have to be honest with your mother ot grandmother in the period from now to your independance. A lie here and there is 100% acceptable. If it makes it easier in the short term to say you see their point and you'll try to do better (without straying from your course), there is nothing wrong with that. You know you can't count on them for even the smallest thing, why should they be able to count on your honesty? I mean, don't do or say anthing you're not comfortable with, just don't extend them the kindness that they wouldn't extend you. In regards to them you should 100% look out for yourself, because that's what they are doing too.

Your path seems a good one. My guess is your life will get a lot easier and more peaceful. Nobody truly has an easy life, but judging from what you're enduring currently there's a lot of room where you'll find more peace, when the time you deal with unreasonable people at least you'll be getting paid for it. And whatever comes on your path will have a solution and you will figure out a way to deal with it.