How should muslims be dealt with?

[⠠⠠⠅⠑⠋⠋⠁⠇⠎ ⠠⠠⠊⠎ ⠠⠠⠁ ⠠⠠⠋⠁⠛]

Islam needs to modernize, in context with the Western world. As of now, extremism and radicals have taken over several Middle Eastern countries. It's downright barbarian if you think about it.

The Saud crime family was put in power over the holy cities of Mecca and Medina because they would sell out their fellow Muslims to the enemy, because they would sell out Al Quds.

That problem doesn't require 'modernization'. It requires some targeted [HUGGING]

 

[KimCoppolaAficionado]

I am autistic and don't understand the bit you are doing.

He isn't doing a bit. A devout Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Jew- all of them will make political decisions based at least in part on their faith, will favor fellow members of their faith over kafir/apostates/adharmics/goyim, and most would at least feel okay with a scenario where their faith's tenants become the law of the land (or, if they have objections, have them based on a secular principle). The difference is primarily one of number, not of kind. Fundamentalist Islam is not a unique psychic cancer, no more than fascism, communism, libertarianism, or any other ideology that attracts dogmatic zealots- it is merely the one with the second-largest subscription base in the Modern world (the first being Neoliberal Capitalism).

 

[NulWillBecomeTranny]

Islam needs to modernize, in context with the Western world. As of now, extremism and radicals have taken over several Middle Eastern countries. It's downright barbarian if you think about it.

Radicals haven't taken over those countries. They actually reflect what a majority-muslim population wants. They do a better job of reflecting their morals than our democratic politicians do ours...

 

[Lemmingwise]

Probably yeah. If I have enough invested in the society, Ill follow whatever the society's rules are. Hay man, if I'm going to a college, have a good career trajectory ahead of me, know what it is like to live in society at large and not be an islamic lolcow- fuck me, it'd be stupid to just drop all that and go on a jihad somewhere or fuck it up by trying to honor kill my wife.

There is a considerable difference between "follow the rules" and "adopt the values". My question was about cultural integration, attaining the same cultural values. There are two problems for a society to have people like that; one, when things go wrong, say economic crashes and the like, then they go out the window. They depend on continual success of a country to work, and no country only has fortune in the future. As you said "good career trajectory", only as long as the good times continue. Why would it be different for muslim immigrants?

Second you are only following the rules, not adopting the values. You are not teaching your children to integrate; you are making sure they know how to thrive and not cause too egregious offense, but you'll still teach your daughter to not put up with domestic violence and you'll still teach your son not to engage in it. As a result, they'll feel more kinship with other immigrants who think the same way.

Now if this group is sufficiently large and succesful to have influence over culture (if only in their own neighborhoods, but possibly also with the writing of books, newspaper columns, making of tv programs etc) then they start to affect the culture as well. You have to understand that the values themselves are at competition and that neither want to adopt the other's view. Particularly in regards to male/female relationship and differences.

Thats the point I'm trying to say. If you are invested in your society, you don't tend to fuck up. I unironically think that a lot of the lolcow problems would be solved if people were actually forced to integrate into society and not have their bullshit catered to, or pushed off to the side and allowed to fester. Get a job and learn how the world actually works and maybe invest in it too, essentially.

Lolcows never take advice. They can get all the help in the world and they'll fuck up.

Are the buurt centers successful? Again, its not just an issue of chucking money at stuff and hoping it sticks. Some does, a lot doesnt. Try and ensure people have jobs, try and ensure that islamic schools arent the prime method of socialization for these people. As it is, thats not happening in the Netherlands or most of Europe. You can open as many community centers as you want, but if its going to an islamic school 5 days a week and then going to play soccer at the rec center once or twice a week on the weekend- you tell me whats going to happen.

The kid that reached out to my friend the teacher because he was considering fighting for IS literally did so because he also had dutch soccer friends. It wasn't an islamic school, but of course, there was the influence of the mosque.

Are buurt centers succesful? Depends on how you measure it I suppose. I'm getting the feeling that your goal of success is a pipe dream, something that hasn't happened once in the history of the world. The closest thing to a success story is Singapore. But even there people end up self-segregating after school anyways. You can't really stop that people like to hang around with people like themselves, who believe like themselves. It's why expats like immigrants usually cling together for example.

btw. Mosques are common in the Netherlands but islamic schools are rather rare. Less than 1% of schools are islamic.

Know what the real difference is? They also don't have or give a shit about white guilt or kowtowing constantly to the demands of random minorities if theyre absurd

Theyve got their own problems with being bugmen and the xenophobia

Lol, xenophobia isn't a problem for them, it's literally the reason they don't have the same problems.

 

[DiscoRodeo]

There is a considerable difference between "follow the rules" and "adopt the values". My question was about cultural integration, attaining the same cultural values. There are two problems for a society to have people like that; one, when things go wrong, say economic crashes and the like, then they go out the window. They depend on continual success of a country to work, and no country only has fortune in the future. As you said "good career trajectory", only as long as the good times continue. Why would it be different for muslim immigrants?

Second you are only following the rules, not adopting the values. You are not teaching your children to integrate; you are making sure they know how to thrive and not cause too egregious offense, but you'll still teach your daughter to not put up with domestic violence and you'll still teach your son not to engage in it. As a result, they'll feel more kinship with other immigrants who think the same way.

Now if this group is sufficiently large and succesful to have influence over culture (if only in their own neighborhoods, but possibly also with the writing of books, newspaper columns, making of tv programs etc) then they start to affect the culture as well. You have to understand that the values themselves are at competition and that neither want to adopt the other's view. Particularly in regards to male/female relationship and differences.



Lolcows never take advice. They can get all the help in the world and they'll fuck up.



The kid that reached out to my friend the teacher because he was considering fighting for IS literally did so because he also had dutch soccer friends. It wasn't an islamic school, but of course, there was the influence of the mosque.

Are buurt centers succesful? Depends on how you measure it I suppose. I'm getting the feeling that your goal of success is a pipe dream, something that hasn't happened once in the history of the world. The closest thing to a success story is Singapore. But even there people end up self-segregating after school anyways. You can't really stop that people like to hang around with people like themselves, who believe like themselves. It's why expats like immigrants usually cling together for example.

btw. Mosques are common in the Netherlands but islamic schools are rather rare. Less than 1% of schools are islamic.

Formatting.

Youve got like, 50 something publically funded islamic schools out of like 6k total schools there. You also have the private ones not included in that number, and then you have the additional schools on a Friday and then other days of the week run through your local mosque. Even if you join a soccer team, youre primary socialization groups are still heavily tilted towards islam is my point. My goal is success isn't really much of a pipe dream, considering a large chunk of muslims who do manage to get jobs or invest in the system seem to have a vested interest in preserving themselves enough to function- which is all Id really ask for. I would hold, making it so these kids integrate further into society at large first, and not just default to the mosque being how they stem their socialization from would probably help considerably.

The ones shaking the boat, etc? Probably your young example with nothing better to do than masturbate after school, so thats why he'd consider ISIS

 

[Lemmingwise]

Formatting.

Youve got like, 50 something publically funded islamic schools out of like 6k total schools there. You also have the private ones not included in that number, and then you have the additional schools on a Friday and then other days of the week run through your local mosque. Even if you join a soccer team, youre primary socialization groups are still heavily tilted towards islam is my point. My goal is success isn't really much of a pipe dream, considering a large chunk of muslims who do manage to get jobs or invest in the system seem to have a vested interest in preserving themselves enough to function- which is all Id really ask for. I would hold, making it so these kids integrate further into society at large first, and not just default to the mosque being how they stem their socialization from would probably help considerably.

The ones shaking the boat, etc? Probably your young example with nothing better to do than masturbate after school, so thats why he'd consider ISIS

No, it wasn't boredom motivating him. It was guilt. He specifically felt guilty that in his non-islamic school he couldn't do the 5 prayers a day.

We have practically no private schools. There are about 1% of primary schools. They are also expensive.

Besides, let's look at how you're suggesting to integrate muslims. You're proposing to tell them: No you are not allowed to persue your own destiny, you are not allowed to your liking. France has done this experiment. Wholesale. So we actually know what it leads to. France made sure that everyone has to mix at school. The goal was to elevate the poor performing schools up to the better performing schools and to better integrate culturally. But the effect has been the reverse; poor performing schools did not improve, but good performing schools degraded. And muslims are less integrated in france than a number of other european countries, which is why there were the paris attacks in the first place and why every week a french church is being set on fire (like the notre dame) to the cheers and laughter of muslims on social media.

seem to have a vested interest in preserving themselves enough to function- which is all Id really ask for.

Most muslims do have a vested interest in preserving themselves enough to function. If that is the measure of success, then every single european country has succesfully integrated the majority of muslims.

But then you have to ask yourself why it was so easy for the paris attack terrorists to lay low so long in Molenbeek, despite going outside and being recognised and such. The muslims around them were preserving themselves enough to function, but they wouldn't report a muslim terror attack perpetrators.

 

[DiscoRodeo]

France has done this experiment. Wholesale. So we actually know what it leads to. France made sure that everyone has to mix at school.

Fuck no France hasn't. France just has public schools in the ghetto and after school everyone returns to their family and mosque where it gets ingrained in them that they have to pray 5 times a day.

If that is the measure of success, then every single european country has succesfully integrated the majority of muslims.

Yeah, but we're not talking about the majority- we're talking about the ones who sperg out.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Yeah, but we're not talking about the majority- we're talking about the ones who sperg out.

Rated optimistic.

Not a single country manages to even get all of their own population invested in its future. Why would this work for the worst of the immigrant muslims, even if it doesn't even work for natives?

 

[DiscoRodeo]

Not a single country manages to even get all of their own population invested in its future. Why would this work for the worst of the immigrant muslims, even if it doesn't even work for natives?

I don't know man, but somewhere along the line someone should be teaching muslim kids that cucking for god is pretty gay the same way christian kids tend to figure it out, except the ones forced into sunday schools

So maybe you'd figure there was a problem in socialization for islamic kids still pretty much de facto occuring sans a larger integration within society to the point where your friends youth thinks "because I cannot pray 5 times a day, I need to blow myself up".

Somewhere along the line, it seems pretty obvious that the community he was allowed to fester within as a kid ingrained some really fucked up things within the dude.

 

[Lemmingwise]

I don't know man, but somewhere along the line someone should be teaching muslim kids that cucking for god is pretty gay

When compared, the religious whether christian or muslim are decidedly less gay.

Puns aside, I think you have an irrealisticly optimistic view at how malleable people are. You're suggesting a strategy that wouldn't achieve your stated goal, has never achieved your stated goal. But you think it should achieve your stated goal. I presume because you haven't done research into people, schools, countries that have tried it, or even just tried it yourself on microscale. When you do, you'll fail, because your current paradigm presumes that there is a harmonious solution.

I mean if you believe in it, put it to the test. Start that school. Go and teach. I'm confident you'll find that you were wrong. I was.

So maybe you'd figure there was a problem in socialization for islamic kids still pretty much de facto occuring sans a larger integration within society to the point where your friends youth thinks "because I cannot pray 5 times a day, I need to blow myself up".

Somewhere along the line, it seems pretty obvious that the community he was allowed to fester within

Yes, he was allowed to fester in a mosque. Where they were helping a teenager arrange travel plans to IS and paying for his trip. You're comparing it to christians, when it's rather hard to compare to anything of such magnitude. They had already arranged the travel for two of his friends. One had already died in battle. BTW, just to clarify, the kid was in the class of my friend and reached out to her.

You can't solve this just at the school level. Even at primary school, these kids are already being taught that authority does not lay with teachers. When there are competing values, they default to their own. And I think you or I would do the same if we were in their country. Would you let some teacher tell you "oh really women should be beaten when they don't obey their husband" and then go "oh yeah, I guess a teacher of a foreign culture tells me my family and friends are all wrong and I should challenge them on this".

 

[Considered HARMful]

Yeah, but we're not talking about the majority- we're talking about the ones who sperg out.

Somewhere along the line, it seems pretty obvious that the community he was allowed to fester within as a kid ingrained some really fucked up things within the dude.

During the ISIS heyday, I realized that their violent actions such as throwing gays from the rooftops have vastly more support that the muslim population wills to admit. Just look at some of the public execution videos and the crowds cheering when a faggot falls and hits the ground.

Politics is downstream from culture.

 

[DiscoRodeo]

has never achieved your stated goal

Seems to work better in the US overall

But you think it should achieve your stated goal.

Yeah. There are some islamists over here too, but nowhere near the amount in the Netherlands because 1st gen muslims over here tend to get ingrained in one way or another and diffuse within their local communities.

I presume because you haven't done research into people, schools, countries that have tried it, or even just tried it yourself on microscale.

Hay man, you don't know me.

Yes, he was allowed to fester in a mosque.

First mistake.

Where they were helping a teenager arrange travel plans to IS and paying for his trip.

Second mistake, you find out a mosque is doing that thing? Close it down. The US got much harder on radical islam in the 2000s, got called Islamophobic by Europe during the war on terror, and guess who has the problem now? Ill take my freedom fries, thank you very much.

You can't solve this just at the school level. Even at primary school, these kids are already being taught that authority does not lay with teachers.

>I don't have to listen to you, my Mullah at my Friday Islamic school says theres no god but god.

Ah wait, in the US for most second generation immigrants you have them doing sports, not living in cloistered communities where 90% of the people are muslim, going to public schools that actually have a mix of people, bombarded by American movies 24/7 that focus on how much it rocks to be American vs "how much the dutch need to bend over to accommodate" etc. Its only in the rare cases where they somehow, somehow manage to avoid that shit that you see them going tradrad. Seems to be quite a bit less common in the US than over there.

Like I'm sorry hans, but I don't think it was inevitable that muslims in europe would and will always turn to extremism. I just think your governments really fucked up and now you guys are paying the price.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Seems to work better in the US overall

It's because you don't have mass immigration of muslims (yet). Though to say it all works out better...






----

Yeah I've heard the american arrogance again and again. You don't have the personal experience that Europeans do. You get the Hasan Pikers and Cenk Uyghurs. The reason they align liberal is because that's the path that is politically expedient for them at this time; that's the way to hold the door open for more immigration. It's not like we don't have people like that. It's just that islam follows a very specific strategy, ever since Muhammed first applied that strategy for himself. First, you co-habit. You do everything to integrate, to make friends, to show how similar islam is to the local customs. Then when you get sufficient people, you start to demand special privileges, claim that you're being oppressed.

Demand halal food, gender segregated swimming hours at swimming pools etcetera. Then start political parties, use violence to start to control neighborhoods until they're no go zones for police (yes we have them too in the Netherlands. People are in denial about it, but when I talk to the local chief of police he says we have them; I believe him.)

It's the same pattern every time with countries that slowly islamified.

It's the 4 stages of islamification of countries.

1. Cohabitation (Muruna)
2. Disproportionate demands and
3. Open violence against non-muslims
4. Islamic hegemony

Most western european countries are somewhere between 2 and 3.

Now I don't think this will happen in the United States. I see no reason why mexicans wouldn't gladly fight back against muslims.

You have fast food businesses where you don't get hired unless you speak spanish. Do you really think mass immigration of muslims would be different? Different in the degree at which they'll just bring their own culture and there is fuck all you can do about it because so many come at once that they barely even have to learn the language? In the united states you're not using a better strategy, you're just dealing with a different type of mass immigration.

 

[DiscoRodeo]

You get the Hasan Pikers and Cenk Uyghurs

Yeah, the people who did get secularized or defanged.

Oh woe is me, I wonder why- could it have to do with cucked dutch "We don't know how to integrate them, theres nothing we could have done better".

North Euros, even in failures theres arrogance and refusal to see your own failures.

It's just that islam follows a very specific strategy, ever since Muhammed first applied that strategy for himself. First, you co-habit. You do everything to integrate, to make friends, to show how similar islam is to the local customs.

Dunno man, the opposite works as well and seems to be going fine in the US- hay Aladin, you wanna come over and smoke weed? You do? Nice, that chick in 5th period is pretty hot right? Get in early, its only the autistics that your state caters to, that your state lets get indoctrinated in friday islamic school, that your state lets castigate in ghettos that are like 90% muslim, that you have a problem with.

You know, I don't think the problem is so much that the US has had less muslim immigration (in total numbers, we have much more immigration- period). Its the fact that for several decades the dutch government and much of Europe bent over backwards to embrace the "multiculturalism" and "its okay, lets make meat haram, lets get segregated swimming hours, lets fund the after school programs, lets not investigate and monitor radical mosques".

You say Americans are arrogant? The Dutch dichotomy is Schrödinger's ineffectual dutchmen. Its either "There is nothing we could have done differently to deradicalize them or better integrate them" vs "We shouldn't even try to deradicalize them". Both of these solutions are pretty off the mark, but I wouldn't expect a Dutchman to see the problem with either approach.

 

[AcidityLiquidity]

One way is a long hard road of re-education, pointing out their prophet was a child raping warlord and moving them away from their backwards literal goat fucking religion.

Or just go the easy way and wipe out the men, but keep some of them hot arab babes and eventually breed the retard out of them.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Yeah, the people who did get secularized or defanged.

But that's the point. They're not secularized / defanged. They are playing you and you're falling for it. If the US continues to increase muslim immigration you will see it too.

You say Americans are arrogant? The Dutch dichotomy is Schrödinger's ineffectual dutchmen. Its either "There is nothing we could have done differently to deradicalize them or better integrate them" vs "We shouldn't even try to deradicalize them". Both of these solutions are pretty off the mark, but I wouldn't expect a Dutchman to see the problem with either approach.

I'm saying learn from the fucking mistake of my parent's generation. They came here as temporary migrant workers, the way italians had in years before. But unlike the italians they never went back (because our socialist/commie government at the time gave them legal immigrant status rather than returning them). We could have just held the agreement and tell them to go back as the deal was, rather than trying to convince them to stay. These were mostly illiterate immigrants, they were selected for their illiteracy so they could be better exploited as factory workers.

I'm saying Dutch strategy was terrible; everything about it. I know I stepped on your american ego there, but I mean it specifically in context of islam. It's not my fucking ego that's speaking here, it's my love of what this country was and could be again. It's a full acknowledging how fucking backward our approach has been that got us here. I'm saying don't make the fucking same mistake because what you're saying here was a pretty common sentiment here 20-30 years ago. What you're suggesting has been done in a number of places and not had the effect you're suggesting it would have. I'm saying we stepped on a landmine, don't get into this field, don't make the same mistake. But americans never believe it, because they know a kind, smart muslim. We'll I've known a bunch of those as well. Coming over for dinner. But then as there are more and more muslims and they start going to the mosque more and more, and suddenly music is haram, drinking is haram. They stop coming over for dinner.

It's a mistake to think Dutch government bent backwards. They leaned forward into it. It's not the same thing. People that spoke out against it, like CD, were terrorized and bombed. Recently, involved journalists admitted they falsified the image of him in media. They weren't too permissive; they actively persued their goals and bombed people that disagreed and were a threat to their goals.

And deradicalize them? We can't deradicalize them without destroying the things we stand for. When you take control of their children's minds, as it requires, then you've just created the precedence for the state to do that to children. (Not that our government isn't doing that with the recent youth news program telling kids that people that don't wear masks kill people by not doing so).

All I'm asking for is for you to take the problem seriously and not think that any of limp wristed attempts are going to work.


In case you're wondering here's the best solutions I've been able to think of. The peaceful solution would be a gradual exodus, with incentives for leaving and penalties for staying. The violent one would be religious cleansing. Any other solution is admitting to a defeat in 4-5 decades to the high birth number of muslims and younger age of starting families. I'm open to other ideas. I know that "just give the worst of muslims a place in society" is exactly the kind of limp dicked approach that you think you are challenging.

Not that it matters what I can think of. Mass immigration to each western country is not a fluke, it's a strategy. It's not a failure, it's a success, for those who planned it.


PS. I see you're not touching on the mexican mass immigration. When talking about kosher meats, it's not like you're putting any resistance to paying jews for all the kosher products either, so why would it suddenly be a problem when it comes to muslims?

 

[DiscoRodeo]

I know I stepped on your american ego there

Bro I'm not even American, sale cochin

It's a mistake to think Dutch government bent backwards. They leaned forward into it. It's not the same thing.

Coulda fooled me

We can't deradicalize them without destroying the things we stand for.

Yeah, I figured that much of the dutch

 

[Lemmingwise]

Bro I'm not even American, sale cochin

Oh yes, Indian. Please tell me how to deal with muslims, lmao.

 

[DiscoRodeo]

Oh yes, Indian. Please tell me how to deal with muslims, lmao.

Bro, thats French- you ignorant windmill farmer. Where else do you think I get the audacity

 

[Lemmingwise]

Bro, thats French- you ignorant windmill farmer. Where else do you think I get the audacity

I googled cochin, I had never heard that before and just got some Indian port. Who cares about french language anyways when english is the lingua franca

How the fuck can you live in france and still live with your head in the clouds about muslims? For americans at least I can understand and sympathise with it, as they don't get to have the multicultural experiences.