Is the STEM push resulting in more failsons?

[DumbDude42]

Not everyone can just pack up and go without giving something up in return. Barring paraplegia or another outlier pretty much everyone is capable at any given time of moving elsewhere, but it often goes untried because it's unpleasant, moreso if you have to drag others (spouse, kids, etc.) with you.

Where I'm from everyone expects to have to move to find their first job and most do, and it's sad saying goodbye and it's awkward and uncomfortable and a little frighting at first, but then years later when you're more experienced you can leverage that and return and compete if you really want to, and have some diversified life experience as a bonus. And the people that don't move for whatever reason, lack of discipline/courage most often, usually end up quite poor and miserable and opine that they should have left back in the day, but now they're stuck in a pattern just continue until they die poorly. Which is sadder than anything that comes from moving to find a job.

throwing away your entire life for the sake of work is not a reasonable expectation
it may seem acceptable to rootless cosmopolitans (and also basement dwellers who have no social ties anyway) but the wider social consequences of shit like this are disastrously bad

 

[Crunchy Leaf]

‘Just move’ is bad advice. You already have a network in your hometown! People who went to the same high school as you, people who went to the same university as you, your parents’ friends, your friends’ parents, other adults around town you happen to know, etc. You know where the cheap but not dangerous neighborhood is and it’ll be easier for you to find a roommate you know isn’t crazy.

On the other hand, if your career interests are something that only exists in a certain place, you either need to move or pick a different career. Don’t get an animation degree and then complain that all the jobs are in LA. Where did you think they would be?

 

[Real Fakeman]

‘Just move’ is bad advice. You already have a network in your hometown! People who went to the same high school as you, people who went to the same university as you, your parents’ friends, your friends’ parents, other adults around town you happen to know, etc. You know where the cheap but not dangerous neighborhood is and it’ll be easier for you to find a roommate you know isn’t crazy.

On the other hand, if your career interests are something that only exists in a certain place, you either need to move or pick a different career. Don’t get an animation degree and then complain that all the jobs are in LA. Where did you think they would be?

Well, I probably am colored by my own experience. But I think a lot of people could be more adventurous, especially if they are young and don't have kids. It's not like you can't ever come back.

 

[CWCissey]

Not everyone is academic, that should be realised.

These kids should be encouraged to learn a trade.

 

[дядя Боря]

and im fucking female so they should apparently be showering me with offers. not really.

I agree the whole internship bullshit needs to end. companies should suck it up and employ new people and give them a training period or something because not all of us can get the time, transportation or nepotism to drive up to the shiny city buildings every day for free labor (ahem, ~experience~) while doing 18 credit hour semesters.

it was real fun hearing my classmates talk about "just network dude, just get your resume out there dude" while they intern at their daddy's friend's company and have a new car and paid-for apartment. but i guess i'm just bitter lol

My dear "fucking female" ... market is shit right now, has been actually since last year. Even last year was kind of shitty, don't fret.

Yeah, liberal shitholes and coastal cities strive to hire divershitty more. Internships are mainly to get your foot in the door with low pressure on both employer and employee, show your skills, look around and get solid references and track record. Also true for networking. It's all about nepotism and knowing people, especially at a higher level. Every good manager knows good people s/he can bring in a new gig.

Bottom line is, unless you're exceedingly good, don't even bother. Find another job. You can get back into the field 5-10 years down the line when all the blue haired transgender trend followers have moved onto whatever career Vice promises them is the one that will definitely take all the bad thoughts away this time.

I have known quiet a few close friends who were really good and got out of IT because it's overflown with dumb pajeets (with shady credentials) and even dumber managers who keep getting promoted because they can't do anything else, like copypaste someone else's code. Frankly, I'd rather work somewhere else, but pay is just too high.

It also helps if you can get over yourself and reconcile the fact that you're not going to be CEO of Alphabet straight out of college. Working for small businesses isn't "beneath you", it is in fact right on your level. There are so goddamn many jobs out there for freelancers and contract workers that nobody wants because they think life is The Sims and the only thing that matters is how many days you've been at a given company.

The whole notion that many "engineers" fresh out of school having, i.e. becoming a CEO or CTO ... you guys need to look what a typical career tracks are. Being an engineer and aiming for positions where people comes from Sales and Marketing (mainly) is like that anecdote about sperm looking for egg in asshole.

 

[Syaoran Li]

‘Just move’ is bad advice. You already have a network in your hometown! People who went to the same high school as you, people who went to the same university as you, your parents’ friends, your friends’ parents, other adults around town you happen to know, etc. You know where the cheap but not dangerous neighborhood is and it’ll be easier for you to find a roommate you know isn’t crazy.

On the other hand, if your career interests are something that only exists in a certain place, you either need to move or pick a different career. Don’t get an animation degree and then complain that all the jobs are in LA. Where did you think they would be?

As a general rule, yes.

But there are exceptions to the "don't move" rule where moving out of your hometown is the best thing you can do for your career or future, be it if you live in an overpriced coastal lefty shithole or if you live in some impoverished crime-ridden shithole like inner-city Detroit or the rural coalfields of Appalachia where the economy has been in the shitter for years and there's no real prospects.

 

[eternal dog mongler]

As a general rule, yes.

But there are exceptions to the "don't move" rule where moving out of your hometown is the best thing you can do for your career or future, be it if you live in an overpriced coastal lefty shithole or if you live in some impoverished crime-ridden shithole like inner-city Detroit or the rural coalfields of Appalachia where the economy has been in the shitter for years and there's no real prospects.

If you're in a rural area then moving is generally good advice. "Networking" doesn't matter because it's likely that your contacts are the guy who works at Dollar General and the other guy who works at Pizza Hut.

These are not careers. If you live in an economically-depressed rural area and want to remain there while also making good money then your only choice is healthcare. Otherwise, get out.

 

[Crunchy Leaf]

If you're in a rural area then moving is generally good advice. "Networking" doesn't matter because it's likely that your contacts are the guy who works at Dollar General and the other guy who works at Pizza Hut.

These are not careers. If you live in an economically-depressed rural area and want to remain there while also making good money then your only choice is healthcare. Otherwise, get out.

You’re right, but the original person who started this subdiscussion said that once you’ve moved away later in your career you can ‘leverage that and return and compete’, which made me assume they were talking about a place that does have jobs other than Pizza Hut. Maybe @abacussedout can explain what they meant. In a competitive environment, surely the person with the hometown advantage has a leg up.

 

[abacussedout]

I guess it depends on what you mean by hometown advantage. I was commenting on STEM and other lines of work that involve higher ed of some sort, be it a degree or a trade certificate. Networking is all well and good, but (nepotism aside) it doesn't change the number of jobs available. It's nice if you have a friend who will give you a referral for an initial interview, but you still have to compete for the position. And there's an unfortunate trend for "entry level" jobs to require a couple years experience. Or for the trades, if you need an apprenticeship etc. it can be pretty competitive just to start. If you want to stay in your hometown and you have a connection that allows you to start (and progress) your career locally then go for it, and congrats.

For the majority of my class in order to even start in our careers we had to move to wherever the job opportunity was, or stay and work retail for a few years while relentlessly applying to limited openings and amassing debt. And similarly to progress in subsequent roles. After a few years of leapfrogging most of us had enough experience to where we could return and be in demand, way ahead of those that stayed. Returning was my preference and I always angled towards that with my career decisions, and since I visited often and kept in close contact I knew where the economy was heading and specialized accordingly, so I guess that might be a hometown advantage.

There are a lot of variables for each individual but don't hamstring yourself by not moving if that's what you need to do to build a decent life. Also being adventurous is a positive character quality that we have far too little of these days. And getting far enough into your career to provide a nice life for your kids when they come around is a good thing.

 

[Bum Driller]

Same with STEM. The big push is "we need more women in STEM; companies need more women workers, et cetera". Do women even WANT to be in STEM? It seems like they are trying to shove a bunch of people that don't want to be there into it and are shocked when they fail.

TL;DR - People are confusing cause and effect like usual in the name of woke points.

This. I'm studying in a STEM-department currently, and the ratio of men to women is perhaps 4:1 or 3:1 nowadays. My mother studied the same subject three decades ago, and she has told that back then the ratio was close to 1:1. For some reason, despite the fact that there is much stronger push nowadays to get women in to STEM, their actual numbers have dropped dramatically. Only reason I can think for this is that women simply aren't interested in STEM, or at least in this particular aspect of it that I'm studying, despite it being very booming industry globally.

 

[ditto]

Only reason I can think for this is that women simply aren't interested in STEM, or at least in this particular aspect of it that I'm studying, despite it being very booming industry globally.

Probably more guys doing STEM for the money, too.

 

[Bum Driller]

Probably more guys doing STEM for the money, too.

In my country it's very rare for women to want to stay at home and raise kids. Majority of people, men and women alike, think that it's extremely backwards and stupid for women to stay at home, and the general view is that both parents should equally take care of family income. Thus most of the women seek as profitable careers as they can get, for some reason they just don't seem to seek them in one of the most profitable STEM subjects.

 

[DumbDude42]

Only reason I can think for this is that women simply aren't interested in STEM, or at least in this particular aspect of it that I'm studying, despite it being very booming industry globally.

i've seen this play out IRL in little kids first hand
show them a computer and tell them about some of the stuff it can do: calculate really large numbers really fast, display graphics in real time, connect across the world, play games, control machinery, etc - you will see a bunch of the boys get super impressed and ask how it works, meanwhile the girls all react with various shades of boredom and disinterest
and this is with 7yr olds and 8yr olds already, it probably doesn't get better from there as they grow older

 

[Bum Driller]

i've seen this play out IRL in little kids first hand
show them a computer and tell them about some of the stuff it can do: calculate really large numbers really fast, display graphics in real time, connect across the world, play games, control machinery, etc - you will see a bunch of the boys get super impressed and ask how it works, meanwhile the girls all react with various shades of boredom and disinterest
and this is with 7yr olds and 8yr olds already, it probably doesn't get better from there as they grow older

It's honestly retarded to assume that this would be some inborn quality in men or women. More likely it's a result of upbringing or other factors. I've lots of experience with kids of that age, and honestly boys aren't at all more interested in these things if they aren't taught, by rewarding such behaviour, to be interested in them. If they aren't taught that expressing interest in such things is regarded as good they simply react to it each according to their personal tastes(as much as little kids have consistent personal tastes), even if their parents and majority of close relatives would work in STEM fields. One day they may be really interested to hear how computer works, and the next day regard it as the most boring subject ever, preferring rather to hear about ancient Egypt or alligators.

 

[Lemmingwise]

i've seen this play out IRL in little kids first hand
show them a computer and tell them about some of the stuff it can do: calculate really large numbers really fast, display graphics in real time, connect across the world, play games, control machinery, etc - you will see a bunch of the boys get super impressed and ask how it works, meanwhile the girls all react with various shades of boredom and disinterest
and this is with 7yr olds and 8yr olds already, it probably doesn't get better from there as they grow older

Show kids how to draw and animate and girls will take more interest than boys. Level design is somewhat of an even split. Programming is mostly a boy interest.

It's especially after 11-12 that girls start to really take a distance from it, as the hormones kick in. That's been my experience teaching various ages of kids.

It's honestly retarded to assume that this would be some inborn quality in men or women. More likely it's a result of upbringing or other factors. I've lots of experience with kids of that age, and honestly boys aren't at all more interested in these things if they aren't taught, by rewarding such behaviour, to be interested in them. If they aren't taught that expressing interest in such things is regarded as good they simply react to it each according to their personal tastes(as much as little kids have consistent personal tastes), even if their parents and majority of close relatives would work in STEM fields.

People that acknowledge biology are really exceptional, yeah.

 

[DumbDude42]

It's honestly retarded to assume that this would be some inborn quality in men or women. More likely it's a result of upbringing or other factors. I've lots of experience with kids of that age, and honestly boys aren't at all more interested in these things if they aren't taught, by rewarding such behaviour, to be interested in them. If they aren't taught that expressing interest in such things is regarded as good they simply react to it each according to their personal tastes(as much as little kids have consistent personal tastes), even if their parents and majority of close relatives would work in STEM fields. One day they may be really interested to hear how computer works, and the next day regard it as the most boring subject ever, preferring rather to hear about ancient Egypt or alligators.

nothing to do with rewards or conditioning, it's literally just the very basic spontanous reaction of "wow this is some cool shit" versus "ugh what's the point of this"

you can observe a similar (but much stronger) divide when you show kids things like weapons. doesn't matter if it's old historical stuff like swords or modern stuff like guns - little boys will love it and be all over that shit, while girls will react with indifference and sometimes even outright revulsion

 

[eternal dog mongler]

This. I'm studying in a STEM-department currently, and the ratio of men to women is perhaps 4:1 or 3:1 nowadays. My mother studied the same subject three decades ago, and she has told that back then the ratio was close to 1:1. For some reason, despite the fact that there is much stronger push nowadays to get women in to STEM, their actual numbers have dropped dramatically. Only reason I can think for this is that women simply aren't interested in STEM, or at least in this particular aspect of it that I'm studying, despite it being very booming industry globally.

I'm just going to be honest. There's an insane amount of misogyny in STEM fields.

Med school was terrible for me, even though I did well. I think women see that shit and just nope out. There's kind of a wall you hit where female students do much better during high school at science courses and then you get to college where most people assume you're just gonna be a nurse.

 

[Crunchy Leaf]

This. I'm studying in a STEM-department currently, and the ratio of men to women is perhaps 4:1 or 3:1 nowadays. My mother studied the same subject three decades ago, and she has told that back then the ratio was close to 1:1. For some reason, despite the fact that there is much stronger push nowadays to get women in to STEM, their actual numbers have dropped dramatically. Only reason I can think for this is that women simply aren't interested in STEM, or at least in this particular aspect of it that I'm studying, despite it being very booming industry globally.

Is this because there’s significantly more men and the same number of women?
On the other hand, some STEM fields like biology are now much more heavily female than they were 40 years ago.

I am female, and I took Intro to Java, and I thought it was incredibly dull. I don’t know how people enjoy programming as a hobby. (I majored in economics, so y’all can make fun of me for picking a dumb girl major if you want).

Men are more likely to take risks, so a man who’s mediocre at math is more likely to say ‘I’ll pick a STEM major and study really hard and it’ll work out!’ And sometimes this turns out well and sometimes this doesn’t.

 

[DumbDude42]

I am female, and I took Intro to Java, and I thought it was incredibly dull. I don’t know how people enjoy programming as a hobby.

same reason why people (almost exclusively men) enjoy hobbies like building model train sets, or certain genres of video games (factorio, space engineers, from the depths, modded minecraft, etc)
there's a ton of these games, the genre could accurately be named "autism simulators", their playerbase is at least 99% male, and their appeal is using some form of logic based building blocks to design and build large scale systems and projects - the more complicated, the better.

the satisfaction of spending dozens of hours dealing with autistically detailed micromanagement of building blocks until finally the whole thing comes together and works as intended, that's why (autistic) men are drawn to this stuff, and apparently women don't share this experience at all

 

[Bum Driller]

same reason why people (almost exclusively men) enjoy hobbies like building model train sets, or certain genres of video games (factorio, space engineers, from the depths, modded minecraft, etc)
there's a ton of these games, the genre could accurately be named "autism simulators", their playerbase is at least 99% male, and their appeal is using some form of logic based building blocks to design and build large scale systems and projects - the more complicated, the better.

the satisfaction of spending dozens of hours dealing with autistically detailed micromanagement of building blocks until finally the whole thing comes together and works as intended, that's why (autistic) men are drawn to this stuff, and apparently women don't share this experience at all

Your views are not in agreement with reality. If you would be correct, no woman ever would go to mathematics or CS or engineering, or military, but surprise surprise, some of them do. Not as many as men, but still a significant amount.