Is there a J-horror anything that doesn't suck?

[skykiii]

So recently, I cottoned on to a problem with Japanese horror.

And its actually similar to a problem many here have with indie horror.

It goes like this:

Japan is fundamentally incapable of envisioning a world where humanity is not the be-all-end-all, and where gods or demons or coffee mascots or whatever are not basically just humans in fancy outfits.

You see this most in what I call the "Silent Hill" problem, where pretty much every single game comes down to somebody did a bad thing or has some emotional issue they can't or didn't deal with and now things are fucked for some reason. Same thing happens in the early Persona games or so I've heard. Even outside of gaming, I recall the movie Dark Water (the Japanese one, and absolutely no relation to the awesome 1990s cartoon) coming down to basically "Mommy issues."

Even Ring and Grudge are literally just "someone is pissed they got murdered, so they murder more people."

I'm sure if Japan ever did an adaptation of the Hounds of Tindalos, the dogs would be somebody's pet doggy who got hit by a car or something. Apparently something like Cthulhu or Hastur the Unspeakable can't even exist in their headspace. Hell someone in another thread told me that Japan had trouble understanding the concept of God or Jesus because they can't understand anything being above humanity.

The primary appeal of horror media is the ability to explore and ask fundamental questions about the nature of reality. Your whiny brat emotions are not an interesting subject.

To be fair its not like Americans have been doing much better in this regard, but Japan disappoints me more because I'm a two-faced asshole.

Anyway, thoughts?

 

[Begemot]

Yeah, I'll admit the underlying aesthetic of J-horror films scared me at the time, it was an emotional response. But looking back at it, there might be more of a connection to Shintoism than previously assumed. Even creatures like Yokai can be everyday things that gain sentience.

Could there be a J horror version of a European writer like M.R.James? I doubt it, the demon in Canon Alberic's scrap book is a quick malignant glimpse, totally anti human in nature and chilling.

 

[Mariposa2.0 LTE]

I wish there was more J Horror. Genre gone too soon.

 

[Smashing Young Man]

The melancholy that underlies most Japanese horror is what I really love about it. I like that J horror mainly concerns itself with the human—that's where the melancholy comes from. The horror itself is more of the existential dread sort, as opposed to anything that makes me afraid to turn off the lights when I go to bed. Given how many people are fans of Silent Hill these days—more of the overall aesthetic than the games themselves—I'm surprised that Japanese horror doesn't enjoy the popularity it used to.

And I'll take this opportunity to state my love of Akira Yamaoka. That guy's music and sound design work in the Silent Hill games is legendary.

 

[The Snail]

In regards to the games mentioned, from my perspective, silent hill 2 was the only game that had treated silent hill or the otherworld as "punishment" for james sunderland's actions. Silent hill 1 is more closely to what you describe, and 3 (I believe, i'm in the process of playing it), as they focus more on "The Order" cult. Persona 1 is closer to the "emotional issues" thing, but it does do things in regards to questioning reality (though I wouldn't call it horror).

The primary issue (in your case) with jap horror is that their society represses emotional issues, and in turn, those issues bleed into their media. For games, I think japanese horror fantasy would be more your speed, like shadow tower for playstation 1.

 

[skykiii]

The melancholy that underlies most Japanese horror is what I really love about it. I like that J horror mainly concerns itself with the human—that's where the melancholy comes from. The horror itself is more of the existential dread sort, as opposed to anything that makes me afraid to turn off the lights when I go to bed. Given how many people are fans of Silent Hill these days—more of the overall aesthetic than the games themselves—I'm surprised that Japanese horror doesn't enjoy the popularity it used to.

And I'll take this opportunity to state my love of Akira Yamaoka. That guy's music and sound design work in the Silent Hill games is legendary.

See, the funny thing is... I actually do like certain aspects.

Like I've seen Japanese horror monsters, paranormal phenomenon, and even the pacing and toning and so on that works. And with Silent Hill especially, some of the ideas they pull really are fucking awesome. I love the super long stairway in SH2, or how you can hear metal scraping in the distance when you first arrive in the city.

My big problem is that a lot of J-horror stories are ultimately let down by, ultimately, the overall situation not living up to the sum of its parts, if that makes any sense.

..... I actually once said something similar about the anime/manga Saint Seiya: from a distance, it actually sounds like a very interesting background/world mythos that has tons of exciting potential. Then you sit down and actually watch it and its just standard shonen fighting series number eleventy-billion, and the cool mythos are just set dressing over an uninteresting story.

Same deal with a lot of J-horror. You have all these awesome ideas but they're ultimately in service to a kind of pointless story.

For games, I think japanese horror fantasy would be more your speed, like shadow tower for playstation 1.

I do love Shadow Tower so you may be onto something.

In fact I recall once saying that Shadow Tower is an unsung legend of Japanese horror, as there's so many things it does that you might not even notice, and to this day I'm not sure if I've seen everything. It's a game we could all learn from.

I especially love how the game will randomly growl at you when you unpause or make it seem like something is going to happen even in rooms which you've 100% cleared (and yes there is an obscure in-game function that tells you when you've killed all the enemies that can possibly spawn in a room)... and that one room with the endless bodies falling into that pit... or that part where a model of a face is on the wall, which can be spookier if you haven't found any light-amplifying items and are going in with pitch darkness.

And in terms of Story, I do like that the Tower itself (according to the manual) is apparently something that just appeared one day, and then sank for no reason. Unless I missed a document or something I don't think the game ever answers all the questions it raises, either.

 

[The Snail]

I do like that the Tower itself (according to the manual) is apparently something that just appeared one day, and then sank for no reason. Unless I missed a document or something I don't think the game ever answers all the questions it raises, either.

I also don't remember if it answers anything. I believe some of the creatures elaborate on things, like the gerbil.

I especially love how the game will randomly growl at you when you unpause or make it seem like something is going to happen even in rooms which you've 100% cleared (and yes there is an obscure in-game function that tells you when you've killed all the enemies that can possibly spawn in a room)... and that one room with the endless bodies falling into that pit... or that part where a model of a face is on the wall, which can be spookier if you haven't found any light-amplifying items and are going in with pitch darkness.

The whole game is really spoogy. Hearing the random scuttles of things in darkness and silence, or the flying skeleton activating when you turn around on it. Unrelated to reply, but I also forgot to suggest forbidden siren. The english dub is pretty bad unfortunately.

 

[Cat tit bingo]

To me the best j-horror movie is Cure which kinda wraps all the way around to the other side by examining the "cure" to human pain being complete detachment from all emotions. It's got all those themes of repression and malaise but presents a horrific answer to those by basically forcefully detaching your self and just killing your problems. Got a shitty coworker that makes life harder? Just shot him, your emotions on the matter are completely arbitrary.
The reality is while horror can have high laudable intrigue into the human condition most are just cheap formal driven fast food. While I love horror including j-horror its the genre that is the most guilty of copying the style while forgetting the substance. Not everything can be a high arthouse movie and they shouldn't be, some movies are just a ghost girl killing people in creepy ways with the same copied themes every japanese ghost movies has. I mean when the grudge has as many sequels as Friday the 13th you know it's not going for a cerebral experience.

 

[LMlurker]

What movie even does what you're looking for? Hellraiser? Most horror media has a villain with some kind of motivation. The ones that don't are more avant garde, like Mulholland Drive or whatever. As far as Japanese horror goes, that kind of arthouse thing is going to take some digging to find.

 

[SentinentCloud]

What movie even does what you're looking for? Hellraiser? Most horror media has a villain with some kind of motivation. The ones that don't are more avant garde, like Mulholland Drive or whatever. As far as Japanese horror goes, that kind of arthouse thing is going to take some digging to find.

i think the only thing OP can derive enjoyment is videos of gay man pooping on each other mouths

 

[Gender: Xenomorph]

This is what I don't like about asian media in general. It's all human-centric.

Demon? It was a human once.
Spirit? Humans upset it somehow.
Monster? Humans got in its way somehow.

Nothing was before humans, nothing is indifferent to humans, everything revolves around humans.

 

[Ted's of Beverly Hills]

Hell someone in another thread told me that Japan had trouble understanding the concept of God or Jesus because they can't understand anything being above humanity.

With respect to their inability to grasp Christian ideas about God and Jesus specifically, Shusaku Endo's prefatory material in his book The Life of Jesus is illuminating there. Namely, Japanese people yearn for mothers and spurn fathers - they view fathers as harsh, cold disciplinarians, while mothers are open, warm, and forgiving. These stereotypes carry over into their concepts of spirituality - the idea of God, the Father, who renders judgments on the one hand but also offers mercy and reconciliation, is anathema to them. In other words, they're culturally programmed with the same retarded attitudes about men and women that Chris-chan has basically, and their understanding of Christianity is as a result generally superficial at best. Endo suggests that part of the reason for past failures to evangelize Japan is a consequence of this.

 

[The Token Ethnic]

I wish there was more J Horror. Genre gone too soon.

It still exists, but usually falls into mainstream movie or Troma/z-grade levels of indie schlock.

The primary appeal of horror media is the ability to explore and ask fundamental questions about the nature of reality. Your whiny brat emotions are not an interesting subject.

Check out Noroi if you haven't seen it yet. It does the horror film in a faux-documentary narrative pretty well.

 

[Carnavoyeur]

Your whiny brat emotions are not an interesting subject.

this is pretty much how I felt reading your post.

 

[skykiii]

Unrelated to reply, but I also forgot to suggest forbidden siren. The english dub is pretty bad unfortunately.

I have the first Siren on PS2, and it's.... a mixed bag.

It's a game I like in theory--stealth mechanics and horror go together really well--and for once the storyline isn't about people's damn emotions causing a haunting (though the actual revelation is kinda silly).

I also remember playing it and finding a lot of stuff I had heard was just wrong--a lot of sites and reviewers describe it as being hard and a game where you had to avoid using the flashlight because it would attract enemies. I found absolutely neither to be true (except in certain situations where using the light would obviously be bad). As long as you play smart, you'll be fine.

My biggest problem was the obtuse things the game asks you to do and how sometimes you would have to repeat an entire level if you messed up just to get an item that unlocks a secondary path in another level (getting the candles in that level where the teacher and the little girl are sneaking through the school is a prime example). That and having to read literally every document in the game.... well, after awhile, it just seems like it wasn't worth it.

I would still kinda like to play Forbidden Siren 2. I know what Shibito are so I'm curious what the deal with Yamibito is.

Basically: "I like Siren, I just wish getting the true ending was less obtuse."

With respect to their inability to grasp Christian ideas about God and Jesus specifically, Shusaku Endo's prefatory material in his book The Life of Jesus is illuminating there. Namely, Japanese people yearn for mothers and spurn fathers - they view fathers as harsh, cold disciplinarians, while mothers are open, warm, and forgiving. These stereotypes carry over into their concepts of spirituality - the idea of God, the Father, who renders judgments on the one hand but also offers mercy and reconciliation, is anathema to them. In other words, they're culturally programmed with the same retarded attitudes about men and women that Chris-chan has basically, and their understanding of Christianity is as a result generally superficial at best. Endo suggests that part of the reason for past failures to evangelize Japan is a consequence of this.

Funny thing about this is I recall reading somewhere that the original Greek/Latin/whatever versions of the Bible described God as being both masculine and feminine all at once, and the whole "father" thing was specifically a result of English translations and possibly King James-era politics and social views.

In any case, the answer is built in. Adam and Eve were the first man and woman. Ergo God can't be either man or woman (it kinda makes no sense for a being with no desire to reproduce to even have a biological sex anyway).

But then, this is Japan. They basically think everything relates back to sex (see "demons wanting to fuck our women"). Even when they have robots in shows they're always either man or woman, even though a machine technically needs to be neither. HAL9000 must fucking confuse them.

this is pretty much how I felt reading your post.

Fair enough.

Now imagine this post was somehow the basis of a ghost story movie and you understand where I'm coming from.

 

[Carnavoyeur]

I just don't get your beef with J-horror or the point of even posting this at all. The genre is a product of the people who made it, it's steeped in their traditions, folklore and beliefs, just like every other media genre made by any other homogeneous society. Your post boils down to "THE JAPS DON'T MAKE MOVIES I LIKE!" Then... don't watch them?

 

[Cherry Eyed Hamster]

I just don't get your beef with J-horror or the point of even posting this at all. The genre is a product of the people who made it, it's steeped in their traditions, folklore and beliefs, just like every other media genre made by any other homogeneous society. Your post boils down to "THE JAPS DON'T MAKE MOVIES I LIKE!" Then... don't watch them?

Exactly!

Japan, unlike Hollywood, rarely makes films that are palatable for most people regardless of where they come from. They are a people who are extremely proud of their culture and as such, make their films around that. This is how the film scene in most countries operate. The U.S is unique because to us it’s an industry, and our culture is not as homogenous.

 

[skykiii]

Your post boils down to "THE JAPS DON'T MAKE MOVIES I LIKE!" Then... don't watch them?

So part of my inspiration here was as another poster pointed out, there's a lot J-horror does right that western horror consistently fucks up.

So essentially, this is less me saying "these things suck" and more me mad that there seems to be some fundamental autism that holds them back from their true potential.

 

[Judge Dredd]

Maybe something like Battle Royale, Resident Evil, or Akira would be up your street?

As others said, I don't get your problem here. Japanese media is full of "gods" and non-human entities. Of course you can reduce everything down to a grey mulch. It's like the phrase "people like art more than science because art has people in it". It might make sense at first, until you think about music, abstract art, sculpture, or landscapes. If you try hard enough, everything is an "emotion" somewhere at some point.

The purpose of horror is fear, and often that requires the unknown, something existential, something dangerous, or the super natural. Often multiple at once.

The above examples often aren't considered j-horror because they don't follow the formula of spooky girl with long black hair.

 

[Carnavoyeur]

So part of my inspiration here was as another poster pointed out, there's a lot J-horror does right that western horror consistently fucks up.

So essentially, this is less me saying "these things suck" and more me mad that there seems to be some fundamental autism that holds them back from their true potential.

I think your fundamental autism is holding you back from the suspension of disbelief regarding a culture that is unfamiliar to you--you are searching for Western ideas in Eastern media. Again, it's just you yelling into the void, you gain nothing from posting this. Japanese filmmakers are not on the Kiwi Farms.

The only film I could recommend that is kind of similar to what you want would be Marebito. You seem to want a film that is bizarre and inexplicable along the lines of Lovecraft. That's about the best you're going to get.

It's like asking "Why do Indians keep making Bollywood movies instead of something like Come and See?? Russians do WW2 movies so well, why can't the Indians do it??"