Jacob Stuart Harrison Storytelling Thread - FSTDT Forums Ex-Pet Lolcow

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HOLD EVERYTHING!

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(And yes that is me leaning against the Time Machine. Aren't I a handsome devil?)

@Jacob Harrison Using the combined technologies of 1985, 1955 and 1885 I implemented your wild plan to see what the world would look like if you somehow succeeded. Buddy, your grand scheme failed so badly that in the words of Jackie Gleason "It Made the H-Bomb look like a two-inch salute." What ended up happening was a dramatic nuclear war that resulted in Euorpe, Asia and the Middle East being nuclear bombed back to the Stone Age. Your monarchy lasted less than a month before it completely imploded and you and your dad's British Car were dragged to the U.S. courts where you were found guilty for hundreds of thousands of human rights violations. Given the severity of your crimes, the U.S. Court came up with a punishment so severe that you're begging for death: You have to watch a bunch of Big bottom girls in tight jeans shake their asses in your face while you sit in a chair in your favorite pair of pajamas. You do this for eight hours a day at which point you are then forced to spend eight hours watching videos of people with physical and mental disabilities doing extraordinary things (Given you think that everyone who has mental and physical disabilities should be chemically castrated (except for you because you've got Ass Burgers)) Fortunately for everyone I was able to easily hit the reset button so no one ever has to experience that horrible future. Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to have a three-way with Claudia Cardinale and Sybil Danning!
I never said that I think people with physical disabilities should be chemically castrated. Also, I was having mental health issues when I made that comment about mental disabilities so I wasn't thinking straight. Now that I am better with medications, I realized that my comment was stupid because it is actually a necessity for society to have many people born with below average intelligence in order for there to be an adequate workforce for important low level jobs.

If I was still Catholic I would consider having girls in jeans shake their asses in front of me a punishment because it would tempt me to sin but now that I am not, I would consider it a great erotic experience.
 
Back to christianity?
I now don't know to believe religiously, but I think that when the true monarch is restored, the Church of England can be used for nationalistic purposes like it did in the past, to promote loyalty to the king chosen by God to rule England, Ireland, and France.
 
I now don't know to believe religiously, but I think that when the true monarch is restored, the Church of England can be used for nationalistic purposes like it did in the past, to promote loyalty to the king chosen by God to rule England, Ireland, and France.
Whatever it is good luck
 
Hello. I remember earlier in this thread we discussed the succession of the English throne in 1066. While England was conquered by William the Conqueror, the niece of Edgar Ætheling, Matilda of Scotland married his son Henry I, merging the Norman and Anglo Saxon bloodlines.

Since you have historical knowledge, do you know if Edward IV had a previous marriage before his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville? As I said, this affects whether his children were legitimate and therefore who the rightful heir to the throne is today.
Can you provide categoric proof that there was male issue from that marriage?
 
Can you provide categoric proof that there was male issue from that marriage?
No, there weren't any children from the alleged first marriage but what matters is the issue from his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville. If that marriage was legally invalid because of a prior marriage, then all of his offspring were illegitimate. Therefore, his brother Richard claimed to be the true heir to the throne. The news about the previous marriage came from Bishop Robert Stillington. This is from wikipedia.
Stillington was selected as Bishop of Bath and Wells on 30 October 1465, and was consecrated on 16 March 1466.[3] He was appointed Lord Chancellor on 20 June 1467 and held the office until 29 September 1470, when Henry VI was restored to the throne. After the return of Edward IV, he was reappointed to his former office and held it until 18 June 1473, when Edward dismissed him.[4]

In 1478, Stillington spent some weeks in prison, apparently as a result of some association with the disgraced George, Duke of Clarence. It has been suggested that he gave Clarence information about the king's prior association with another woman, information that would have put Clarence in a position to claim the throne for himself.

After Edward's death in April 1483, Stillington was a member of the council of the boy-king Edward V. Some time in June, a clergyman, identified as Stillington only by the writings of the French diplomat Philippe de Commines (who referred to him as "ce mauvais evesque"), told Richard, Duke of Gloucester, the Lord Protector, that the marriage of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville had been invalid on the grounds of Edward's earlier marriage to Lady Eleanor Talbot, at which he claimed to have officiated. This led to Elizabeth Woodville's children by Edward IV being declared illegitimate and the Duke of Gloucester ascending the throne as Richard III.
If Edward IV's children are illegitimate, then the true heirs to the throne after Richard III's death, are the descendants of his eldest sister.

*ahem*

Fuck Anglo cucks

Britonchads and Celtchads rise up
The English are responsible for Common Law which is part of many countries modern legal systems, and many more things. Here is a list of all the great accomplishments the English did. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_inventions_and_discoveries
 
Why is this thread not in the LolCow section? Or does he already have one there? Cuz dude...
 
@Fagatron since your English, you might know about the situation in 1483. I am trying to figure out if the claim that Edward IV had a previohs marriage to Eleanor Butler before his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville, as this affects who the rightful king was after his death. I read both the views of mainstream historians who say it is a fabrication used by Richard to seize the throne and Ricardian sites that try to rehabilitate Richard III by claiming it is true. I found evidence both for and against.

Yorkistage.blogspot.com
Although Commines is the principal source for Robert Stillington being the clergyman who informed Richard of the alleged marriage between Edward IV and Lady Eleanor Talbot, the treatment of the bishop after the accession of Henry VII does appear to support the idea that he was the man involved. Indeed it appears that the Lords wished to (at least) examine the bishop, but that Henry protected him from such an inquisition.

On the assumption that Stillington was the person responsible, what was his motive? This was a man already in his 60s, who had in our terms settled into a comfortable retirement. He had held high office under Edward IV, notably as Lord Chancellor from 1467-1473 (with a gap during the restoration of Henry VI.) Given the nature of the job, it seems reasonable to assume that he was a senior administrator of considerable ability.

Now of course Edward sacked him in 1473, and later, following the fall of Clarence, the bishop spent a short time in prison, apparently for speaking out of turn. Neither experience was unique, and neither seems to justify a burning desire for revenge. It's not as if the bishop spent the rest of his life on Job Seekers Allowance. He had, for a start, the very substantial revenues of the See of Bath and Wells, the equivalent of which today would be a very handsome pension pot indeed.

So did Stillington look for any reward? If so, he must have been sorely disappointed. There is no evidence that Richard III did anything to advance him. He certainly did not appoint him to high office or translate him to a better see. Nor was he in any sense part of Richard's affinity.

So are we really to believe that the bishop woke up one morning, and thought up a secret marriage for Edward IV, just for the hell of it? It was a risky thing to do, surely. Why should he be believed? What were the likely consequences if he were not believed? He risked, at the minimum, another spell in the Tower. Indeed, would he have dared to come forward with nothing more than his unsupported word? Say for the sake of argument it was pure invention. Would he not at least have had to 'square' the remaining members of the Talbot family, to be sure that his statement would not be met with universal contradiction? If he had been disbelieved, his future under Edward V would have been very far from rosy!

On balance, the easiest explanation seems to be that he genuinely had something on his conscience. Moreover, it seems likely he had some form of proof. We know that proofs of some kind were offered, even if we have no idea what the 'proofs' were. If you think the contrary, you must surely ask yourself what kind of man this Stillington was, and what was his motive. I think you would have to conclude that he was very odd indeed, malicious and exceptionally vengeful.

erenow.net
Following the death of her husband, Eleanor had to appeal to the young king, Edward IV, then coming up to his nineteenth birthday on 28 April 1461, for the return of her various properties. Edward had confiscated them on the grounds that Lord Sudeley had given them to his son and daughter-in-law without the sanction of a royal licence. It is thus asserted that Eleanor had to seek an audience with the King to secure her lands.30
We do not know exactly where and when this fateful meeting between Eleanor Butler and King Edward IV took place. A survey of Edward’s itinerary for that period provides a number of candidate locations, ranging from London to East Anglia or perhaps the Warwickshire or Gloucestershire areas.31 Again, we are here into the realms of speculation as to location, but the fact that they actually did meet seems to be supported by the subsequent documented retention of the respective lands by Eleanor.32 One reasonable possibility that must be considered is the royal residence at Woodstock in Oxfordshire. The proximity between Woodstock and Great Dorsett is perhaps the most persuasive factor in favouring this location. There are only twenty-two miles between the two, and winter travel at the time cannot have been easy. However, the journey between Woodstock and Great Dorsett would have been along major thoroughfares, going through or close by large towns such as Banbury and Oxford and perhaps therefore a little less daunting. One fascinating alternative possibility is Grafton Regis. It is very tempting to speculate that Edward IV engaged in the same activity (marriage of a beautiful young widow) in the same place, but this symmetrical interpretation is belied by the fact that Grafton Regis (see Figure 12) was a home of the Woodvilles and this particular site of Edward’s later marriage to Elizabeth Woodville is most probably related to their occupancy there rather than any sentimental attachment on behalf of Edward himself. Wherever we seek to place the location of the pre-contract with Eleanor, we have to remember that the itineraries of the king, Eleanor and Robert Stillington, later Bishop of Bath & Wells, have to overlap spatially as well as temporally. That Stillington may have been attending on the king is a possibility, if not a probability, but again empirical efforts may help us to determine this site at some time in the future, and it is possible that advanced simulation and modelling can help decide these propositions.33 Of course, at present we cannot even rule out the possibility that the site of the pre-contract was Great Dorsett itself. Again, this is simply speculation at this stage. What seems quite well established was that only the king, Eleanor and Stillington were present at this ceremony.

edwardv1483.com
If the precontract were true, why didn’t Eleanor come forward when Edward’s marriage to Elizabeth was made public in September 1464? When a young woman addressed this question through the Ricardian newsletter, one member’s smug response was that Eleanor was a lady who would rather hide her secret and seek refuge in the Church than challenge the King’s marriage publicly. This is a specious argument for many reasons. First of all, we know nothing of Eleanor’s character, so it cannot be said for certain that she would by nature rather retreat than fight. It would be no small thing for which she was fighting, but for the title of Queen itself. Ricardians cannot respond that it would be dangerous for her to do so. After all, the Ricardians claim that Bishop Stillington had knowledge of the precontract, and he still managed, during the time of Edward’s and Elizabeth’s marriage, to serve as Chancellor of England. Further, when George of Clarence was madly rushing from one treason to another in 1476 and 77, Stillington was one of those arrested and imprisoned in the Tower for words “prejudicial to the King.” Ricardians assume that prejudicial words were regarding the precontract. But Edward IV eventually released Stillington from the Tower. Would he have done so if the “prejudicial” words involved the royal marriage and the succession itself? And if the precontract were true, why should Eleanor fear for her life if Stillington managed to keep his? The fact that Stillington was a bishop would not prevent him from suffering an unfortunate “accident.” His offense to the King was even greater than that which eventually led to Thomas Becket’s assassination over 3 centuries earlier. And Edward IV was not a man to provoke concerning the succession. Furthermore, even if Eleanor were a retreater and not a fighter, would the same be said of her male kin? Eleanor Butler was related to the Talbots, who held the earldom of Shrewsbury. Are we to suppose that she couldn’t have gone to her male relatives to redress the matter?
How Could Such a Thing Stay Secret?

There is even more reason to doubt the truth of the alleged precontract between Edward IV and Eleanor Butler. When Edward IV publicly announced his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville in September 1464, Eleanor would have found plenty of people who would have loved to hear her story. Most importantly, Richard Neville, the earl of Warwick, and George of Clarence. Warwick in particular had reason to hate the marriage between Edward and Elizabeth, which had been done behind his back while he was in France negotiating a marriage between Edward and the French princess. Richard’s defenders point to the secrecy of Edward’s and Elizabeth’s marriage as further proof that the precontract was true, but Edward’s secrecy is just as well explained as the actions of a young man who knows that he is going against the wishes of his mentor. Edward at 22 was no different than Richard II had been at the same age when he tried to squeeze out from under the thumbs of his own power-hungry and controlling relatives. Edward’s marriage to Elizabeth was just as contrary to Warwick’s wishes as Edward’s desire to form an alliance with Burgundy instead of France. Having been thwarted in his objectives to form an alliance with France through a marriage between Edward IV and a French princess, Warwick likewise understood that Edward had embarrassed him before the whole world, which had thought that Warwick had the King under his control. From Warwick’s perspective, Elizabeth was also objectionable because her family had been Lancastrian adherents and because, although her mother was of noble blood, her father was a mere English gentleman. Marriage to Elizabeth would bring England no diplomatic gain nor a sizable dowry. As relations between Edward IV and Warwick grew more strained, Warwick would have had even more reason to repudiate the marriage he hated, so Eleanor and the Talbots would indeed have had his ear if they had told him the story of the precontract. Further, since Warwick was in negotiations with the French regarding a marriage between Edward IV and a French princess in 1464, and since even Isabella of Spain was once considered as a consort for Edward, we might conclude that the entire world, including Edward’s mentor Warwick and his intimates, considered Edward a bachelor prior to his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville on May 1, 1464. Robert Stillington, Bishop of Bath and Wells, was alleged to have produced the story of the precontract between Edward IV and Eleanor Butler. He produced it on or around June 22, 1483, when the supporters of Edward V had been defeated and both boys were in the Tower. Unlike what Rosemary Jarman would suggest in her novel We Speak NoT reason, Stillington was not an obscure church mouse, but a former Chancellor and a member of the King’s Council.
A Problem with Timing

One of the arguments that Alan Sheppard presents in his study guide “The Princes in the Tower” is that the alleged precontract between Edward IV and Eleanor Butler is made more believable because the important Robert Stillington, former Chancellor and the bishop of Bath and Wells, rather than an anonymous country priest, informed Richard of it. I think the opposite. The alleged precontract would have had much more credibility if a simple priest had informed Richard of it. Stillington was a public and worldly figure who had a political past. He had been imprisoned in the Tower by Edward IV. If he was the source of the story, the precontract can only be viewed with the greatest suspicion, especially because the allegations regarding Edward V’s legitimacy were not made public until June 22, 1483, when Edward’s friends had been destroyed, the boys were secured in the Tower, London was filled with Richard’s soldiers, more were coming from the north, and a crowd was on hand, expecting the coronation of Edward V. If Stillington had been sincere, he would have presented his story regarding the precontract immediately after Edward IV’s death, when Hastings and Edward V’s other loyal subjects were alive, free, and unintimidated, and before Richard had a death grip on the government and his opposition.
It is not by accident that Rosemary Jarman’s Stillington in the historical novel We Speak No Treason comes out from nowhere, tears in his eyes, imparting a tale that is painful to tell. In this manner, readers are misled to think that Stillington was a simple, unworldly man whose motives were unsullied. The very idea that Ricardians expect us to reject Thomas More’s History because he served in John Morton’s household when he was a boy but do not apply the same standard to Stillington, rejecting the words of a man martyred for a principle but accepting another’s without examination because they like what he says, is a perfect example of special pleading and typical of the fallacious reasoning by which Ricardians argue.

After doing research, I now know that Eleanor Butler likely had sex with Edward IV in exchange for property benefits but I did not find conclusive evidence for or against the claim that she married him. I am really frustrated that I haven’t figured out this mystery that effects the legitimacy of future dynasties. Since you Kiwi Farmers are good at finding people’s information, perhaps you can help me find out this information about Edward IV and Eleanor Butler.
 
After doing research, I now know that Eleanor Butler likely had sex with Edward IV in exchange for property benefits but I did not find conclusive evidence for or against the claim that she married him. I am really frustrated that I haven’t figured out this mystery that effects the legitimacy of future dynasties. Since you Kiwi Farmers are good at finding people’s information, perhaps you can help me find out this information about Edward IV and Eleanor Butler.
Elanor Butler was actually a tranny.
 
I did research into canon law which governed the English laws of inheritance in the 15th century and discovered this.
Canon 1061.3 An invalid marriage is said to be putative if it has been celebrated in good faith by at least one party. It ceases to be such when both parties become certain of its nullity.
I need to do research to see if that was part of canon law in the 15th century. If it was and if Edward IV married Eleanor Butler before marrying Elizabeth Woodville, his second marriage would be putative if Elizabeth did not know about his prior marriage when she married him and bore children. Therefore, their children would still be legitimate.

I did research into canon law which governed the English laws of inheritance in the 15th century and discovered this.

I need to do research to see if that was part of canon law in the 15th century. If it was and if Edward IV married Eleanor Butler before marrying Elizabeth Woodville, his second marriage would be putative if Elizabeth did not know about his prior marriage when she married him and bore children. Therefore, their children would still be legitimate.
And I found out that it was part of canon law for centuries. Therefore the rightful heir to the throne is this guy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Joseph_Wenzel_of_Liechtenstein
 
And I found out that it was part of canon law for centuries. Therefore the rightful heir to the throne is this guy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Joseph_Wenzel_of_Liechtenstein

I have a question. Do you accept absolute primogeniture or male-preference primogeniture as the rightful mode of succession by inheritance? As of writing today, Princess Charlotte stands ahead of her younger brother Prince Louis in the line of succession whereas prior to 2011 ago Louis would be ahead of Charlotte.

This undoubtedly has a major impact on who is the "rightful" king of England, as Britain has changed its laws regarding the succession of monarchs several times throughout the centuries.
 
I have a question. Do you accept unisex ascension or primogeniture as the rightful mode of succession by inheritance? As of writing today, Princess Charlotte stands ahead of her younger brother Prince Louis in the line of succession.

This undoubtedly has a major impact on who is the "rightful" king of England, as Britain has changed its laws regarding the succession of monarchs several times throughout the centuries.
I believe in the traditional succession laws where a daughter inherits the throne only in the absence of sons.
 
I believe in the traditional succession laws where a daughter inherits the throne only in the absence of sons.

Interesting. Thank you.

What is your stance on the Personal Union of states? Though it's not unknown in modern Europe, the President of France is likewise also always co-Prince of Andora with the Catholic Bishop of Urgell, several states have enacted laws to prevent it historically in the wake of the mess in Scandanavia where various provinces were joined and disbanded almost every time a new monarch ascended.

How would you persuade/coerce Joseph to abandon his role as hereditary prince? It's a far cushier and less exacting role than that of the monarch of Britain. Bear in mind that the House of Liechtenstein is the wealthiest royal house in Europe. They make the Windsors look like peasants.
 
Interesting. Thank you.

What is your stance on the Personal Union of states? Though it's not unknown in modern Europe, the President of France is likewise also always co-Prince of Andora with the Catholic Bishop of Urgell, several states have enacted laws to prevent it historically in the wake of the mess in Scandanavia where various provinces were joined and disbanded almost every time a new monarch ascended.

How would you persuade/coerce Joseph to abandon his role as hereditary prince? It's a far cushier and less exacting role than that of the monarch of Britain.

Bear in mind that the House of Lichenstein is the wealthiest Royal House in Europe. They make the Windsors look like peasants.
Well restoring the true heir will inevitably create a personal union between Britain, Ireland, France, Bavaria, and Lichenstein. I think that when he has a first born son, his son should get kidnapped and raised to be king.

@Fagatron Another interesting thing is that while the Jacobite heir Charles Edward Stuart supported the American Revolution, making the US government legitimate, all the other territories that were part of the British Empire prior to 1688 are rightful territories of Joseph Wenzel since the Jacobite heirs did not recognize the independence of those territories. That includes parts of Canada, Bermuda, parts of the West Indies, parts of the East Indies, parts of India, the Gambia River in Africa, and St Helena.
 
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