Lolcow Leonard F. Shaner II - Discussion Edition and Now With Less Autism (see the OP)

[Kiwi Koala]

Their screen name means a guest who's a outsider (remember the New Zealand/Kiwi connection here).

 

[AnOminous]

Their screen name means a guest who's a outsider (remember the New Zealand/Kiwi connection here).

And their avatar is a Maori design.

Probably cropped from this image:

Spoiler: Medium Size Image

On this page:

http://tatuagenstattoo.com.br/tatuagens-maori-fotos-e-desenhos/

 

[Kiwi Koala]

I've been browsing Hy's art site, looking for a Maori connection. Not a fan of the wordpress design. Of course, simply using google for some NZ history would have turned up similar results, but I have time to kill today.

 

[AnOminous]

I've been browsing Hy's art site, looking for a Maori connection. Not a fan of the wordpress design. Of course, simply using google for some NZ history would have turned up similar results, but I have time to kill today.

It's probably a New Zealand reference more than anything.

 

[Kiwi Koala]

Yeah, I haven't turned up anything. Art history, unfortunately, isn't my forte.

http://www.imaginairium.com/ In case anyone's interested in Hy's art site. Be careful, it opens in word press, which may have issues on mobile browsers or overtaxed systems.

Edit: That site is actually something run out of the upstairs of the office. I don't know Hy's full connection to it.

Edit 2: I had a long chat with our new forum member via PM. There's a very high chance I'll be eating some crow on this one.

 

[LiveFromNS]

Doesn't want to be seen as badgering, or instigating, when Hy brings down the wraith of god on the kiwis. You know, for our, apparent, connection to terrorist groups, the massive conspiracy, the fact that we have a judge and officers of the law in our pockets, or that we're diabolical masterminds, stroking cats and planning world domination, etc.

Given Hy posting and engaging here, I would tend to think he may have created a conflict of interest or similar issue?

He is now in essence a witness to his case. If he shows screencaps of posts, at least any he authored, should not the prosecution have an opportunity to cross-examine him on it? I get they need to prove/he needs to admit authorship otherwise its just an anonymous internet poster.

I just had a puff so my head ain't fully with it. So, I respectfully defer to @Saul Goodman and @AnOminous and any other legal practitioners. What do you think on this aspect? Would Hy introduce the stuff as exhibits to an affidavit from Len? I am interested to know, if either of you can mentally pretend to be obtuse, how you would present this case/evidence/argument if ou were the lawyer?

 

[autism420]

Edit 2: I had a long chat with our new forum member via PM. There's a very high chance I'll be eating some crow on this one.

So.... what did he say? This is suspicious.

 

[Kirby]

I'm @Flxible and I'm not Hy or anyone listed in this or the main thread.

Given that Hy's a lawyer, it's probably important for you all and the mods to know that you have your guess wrong so I made the effort to cloak a bit and create this second account.

The post which said my IP matched Shaner's was also just plain wrong (as was later proved by the mods/admins post and the subsequent guess about Hy based on geography).

The IP trace to Chester Springs is correct but it is not Hy's. It's a coincidence that Hy lives in the same general locale.

For the record, I am not any of the people involved and my opinions and posts were/are mine alone.

So I'll go back to lurking and leave you all be.

Well the creation of a second account could have had to do with the speed at which we banned the first one. I'm not the third, your assumption there is false. As far as the short retorts, although lawyerly in language, maybe they were just angry and short given what they were seeing. Search answers your second paragraph. Guessing that any further enlightenment from two banned accounts is unlikely at this stage. And while your scenarios are likely, the one I'm postulating is just as likely.

Hi Kaufman

 

[sugoi-chan]

Well the creation of a second account could have had to do with the speed at which we banned the first one. I'm not the third, your assumption there is false. As far as the short retorts, although lawyerly in language, maybe they were just angry and short given what they were seeing. Search answers your second paragraph. Guessing that any further enlightenment from two banned accounts is unlikely at this stage. And while your scenarios are likely, the one I'm postulating is just as likely.

You know we're not literally Kiwis, right? This site has nothing to do with New Zealand so you don't need to do all that to blend in.

 

[TM Ambrose]

You know we're not literally Kiwis, right? This site has nothing to do with New Zealand so you don't need to do all that to blend in.

Speak for yourself. I'm just a kiwi in a cat-wearing-murloc-costume costume

 

[AnOminous]

I just had a puff so my head ain't fully with it. So, I respectfully defer to @Saul Goodman and @AnOminous and any other legal practitioners. What do you think on this aspect? Would Hy introduce the stuff as exhibits to an affidavit from Len? I am interested to know, if either of you can mentally pretend to be obtuse, how you would present this case/evidence/argument if ou were the lawyer?

If Len sued someone, with Hy as counsel, the defendant could reasonably counter-sue both Len and Hy, on the grounds that they both defamed the defendant themselves, either because both Hy and Len made defamatory claims about them, or at least conspired together to do so, rather as Len claims (without any factual basis) Kiwis are doing to him.

Hy's main defense to the defamation claim would be to argue that, in fact, Len made all the defamatory posts, that is, argue against his client's interests.

This would create a genuine adversity between the counter-defendants that might, theoretically, preclude Hy from representing Len in a case where he was also a defendant.

This is all purely an off-the-cuff hypothetical, of course, not a recommendation of any kind.

 

[Kiwi Koala]

So.... what did he say? This is suspicious.

Not a whole lot. We talked about persons with developmental disabilities. They're sincere enough that either I got played (certainly possible), or they're just someone who hasn't been completely desensitized to the internet, and weren't even aware places like this existed. I'll ask the if they don't mind me posting their PMs, because there's some, slightly, personal info in there.

Long and short of it is, they're not the same person as the last two, they didn't know Len (or defend him), and their actual approach to dealing with issues is solid, very solid. To the point where it's something I wouldn't expect from someone without at least some background in the science of it all. There was also a complete lack of passive aggressive sniping.

 

[Chaosbandit]

I suspect that you all are overcomplicating the analyses of @Flxible / @onionman identity. If you look back at the original postings and q and a, consider: parent or family member of child with autism hears about Colebrookdale's autism train that was scheduled for August 14th (but then cancelled) and who was researching a trip there. Google for Colebrookdale and autism leads to Len's Facebook page hating on Colebrookdale and kiwifarms.net which leads to the Shaner threads. When confronted with @Zim 's first page and the quote: "We're all familiar with autism. It's half the attraction of this forum. However, there's a place where autism is rampant and that's trains. Rail fans, a.k.a. foamers, can be some of the most autistic and horrible people you can meet." said person dives into the thread and possibly searches Colebrookdale in the thread. Finds out from the thread that one of the Colebrookdale volunteers has doxed himself here as @Pocket_Sand! and decides to wade into the thread. No relation to anyone involved except possibly interested in a trip on a Colebrookdale train with an autistic kid.

This (probable) sock is pretentious and not at all funny...

Would one of our resident scholars be so kind as to blow him out of the water?

 

[manuhiri]

What exactly are you trying to gain out of this?

It's only fair to answer questions I guess. I'm trying to gain an understanding of what's really going on in this case so that it might help me in the future. As I PM'd to @Kiwi Koala , I am involved with the autism disability community and am just now learning about this site, and other's like wikidramatica, where there is active discussion of autistics and their behaviors. As it's "off topic" this answer isn't about starting a shit posting storm, it's just an answer to your question... I'm not trying to create trouble, just lurking around this and similar sites.

 

[TM Ambrose]

It's only fair to answer questions I guess. I'm trying to gain an understanding of what's really going on in this case so that it might help me in the future. As I PM'd to @Kiwi Koala , I am involved with the autism disability community and am just now learning about this site, and other's like wikidramatica, where there is active discussion of autistics and their behaviors. As it's "off topic" this answer isn't about starting a shit posting storm, it's just an answer to your question... I'm not trying to create trouble, just lurking around this and similar sites.

Alright let me explain this again.
Autism as used in regards to this site is more of a slang word than anything used to refer to a repetitive series of behaviors that are either socially unacceptable (such as Len creeping on little girls), over the top (Chris macing a guy because of sonic having blue arms), or generally annoying/disruptive/self-harming (TJChurch posting anywhere/ denying his diabetes to such an extent that he's been in a coma due to his refusal to acknowledge it). While some of these people may actually have autism, when we refer to it we're not specifically referring to autism, but more of a generalized concept presented by many lolcows. Along with this it's also used due to OPL's use of it so that he could get out of trouble, and the fact that it's really common for people to self-diagnose. In reality a good majority of our user base falls into the category of being 'autistic' by our definition. A few are actually autistic, but it's pretty well understood that we don't actually mean it as an offensive term to actual autistic people. I hope this clears things up a bit. (I'm not sure if everyone else agrees with this though, but i feel it is close to being correct).

 

[Ouija Board]

What I take from the word "autism" and its variants on this board is that it is used as an adjective and a verb

For example:

Adjective: "Len is an autistic spaz," "This thread is full of autism," "This art work is autistic as hell."

Verb: "You all are acting autistic," "Stop being so autistic," "Len is autistically doxxing people."

Either way, the forums do not make fun of people with actual disorders, there might be a few that we do talk about that disorders but we don't mock them for that, rather we mock behaviors that are outlandish, egotistical, etc. In other words we mock people who are assholes, who are narcisstic and display that shit all over the Internet. We mock people who don't have any disorders as well, if you looked around you will see have subforums for Tumblr and men right's activists. These are some very broad subforums. Also, we don't go seeking out to troll these people but rather observe and discuss the dynamics of such individuals and groups, there is a huge pink box above each forum that you can visit that has the rules and one of them states "no trolling plans." We take that shit seriously here. Think of this being more of a gossip site but instead of celebrities we discuss eccentric people on the Internet. It's about the same as mocking a street preacher or someone acting a fool in public.

Note to Kiwis: If I got any of this wrong please correct me.

 

[manuhiri]

Also, we don't go seeking out to troll these people but rather observe and discuss the dynamics of such individuals and groups, there is a huge pink box above each forum that you can visit that has the rules and one of them states "no trolling plans." We take that shit seriously here.

Firstly thanks to @Ouija Board and @TM Ambrose for informative responses. I'll risk a followup. With serious apologies if this is off topic and happy to take it somewhere else or just shut up...

Off Topic: I've red that pink box in detail - a few times - (and it certainly makes this site seem like there are some ground rules vs others which appear to have no such rules or concerns). As I understand trolling, isn't there a ton of it going on in the main Shaner thread? That's one of the things that interests me here. It would appear that there are very pro-active attempts to engage Shaner and his w.eens outside of the site on social media, sms, etc. and then cross post material here. Folks are actively "talking to him" (and them) in their posts. Is that not Trolling? I get the whole "gossip site but...sic...for eccentric people on the Internet" thing. What I'm thinking about is how to help mentally challenged adults, and particularly ones with autism who fit the profile you're describing, from being "sucked in" to something like what's going on here. Also in this particular case, it would appear to me that Shaner is a mess in all the ways you cite but that he must be diagnosed with mental disabilities (I thought I saw references to diagnosis for Downs, autism, and MR along the way)? If that's the case, wouldn't he be an example of someone with an actual disorder? When does observation and commenting turn interactive and seek to engage someone who is mentally disabled and that reinforces and encourages more bad behavior or worse? And finally - I'd guess that the pink box "Be Civil" statement would be the most "bendable" rule but the main Shaner thread certainly becomes uncivil in the ways cited many times.

 

[Kiwi Koala]

Who's doing the interacting though? One person was, they pulled out when it seemed likely Len was going to contact a random woman whom he assumed was that person. There was minor blowback due to him being a "Cool Guy", but ultimately he wasn't doing anything that Len wasn't doing on his own (doxxing random people here, trying to connect them to the railroad). As I mentioned, in our PMs, Len initiated first contact.

To my knowledge, Len doesn't have a concrete diagnoses. As mentioned (in thread, and PM), he was born in a time, and place, where such things were much less common.

Len's connection was throttled, in large part, because people were directly confronting him, and the quality of the thread was suffering. I'd also note, when Len went to court (for charges that occurred prior to contact here), he essentially called out this place, and his lawyer, seemingly, did the same. At this point, Len thinks he's at war, and his lawyer (in all likelihood) threatened the people here. Direct contact is almost inevitable at this point, whether it's wanted, warranted, or whatever. As was also mentioned, once someone has certain labels thrust upon them, and are convicted in the court of public opinion, then rules become relaxed, and there's a lot of anecdotal evidence for Len having said label.

 

[Sanae Kochiya]

Off Topic: I've red that pink box in detail - a few times - (and it certainly makes this site seem like there are some ground rules vs others which appear to have no such rules or concerns). As I understand trolling, isn't there a ton of it going on in the main Shaner thread? That's one of the things that interests me here. It would appear that there are very pro-active attempts to engage Shaner and his w.eens outside of the site on social media, sms, etc. and then cross post material here. Folks are actively "talking to him" (and them) in their posts. Is that not Trolling? I get the whole "gossip site but...sic...for eccentric people on the Internet" thing. What I'm thinking about is how to help mentally challenged adults, and particularly ones with autism who fit the profile you're describing, from being "sucked in" to something like what's going on here. Also in this particular case, it would appear to me that Shaner is a mess in all the ways you cite but that he must be diagnosed with mental disabilities (I thought I saw references to diagnosis for Downs, autism, and MR along the way)? If that's the case, wouldn't he be an example of someone with an actual disorder? When does observation and commenting turn interactive and seek to engage someone who is mentally disabled and that reinforces and encourages more bad behavior or worse? And finally - I'd guess that the pink box "Be Civil" statement would be the most "bendable" rule but the main Shaner thread certainly becomes uncivil in the ways cited many times.

While I'm slightly convinced that you're one of Len's more coherent friends taking the piss out of us (since the last person I gave this time of day to was @Flxible and that was Hy), I will admit that we've been more paranoid and possibly a bit hugbox-y (which is a bit ironic) as of late, so I'll respond and give, at the very least, my take on everything.

First off, disclaimer. Len is disliked amongst a couple of Kiwis, mostly the vets, because of its nature. Len isn't interesting to a lot of the vets, and the thread is actually guilty of a lot of autism, sperging, and downright stupidity, as Null and some mods have said several times. The fact that the thread was featured at times or just hasn't been nuked from orbit yet shows the patience of them for dealing with all of the Len tripe and just how much Len fascinates a couple of us. If it seems like the Len thread is breaking a couple of rules, it's because, well... it kinda is, but the very nature of who Len is and how he responds and what it's led to has kinda morphed Len and its thread into what it is with its special cases. If I had to compare it to anything... it would probably be Golden Age Chris, where a couple of trolls would actively engage Len because of how fucking dumb he is and how easy he is to milk. If you tried this shit with people like modern day Chris or some other trolls like Wu or a Tumblrina, you'd probably get blocked for being a tryhard and we'd all laugh at your stupidity. Most cows nowadays are more than happy to hit the block button or just flat out ignore obvious trolls. Len is just not one of those people.

Now, Len. Yes, what people are doing are "actively trolling him." A lot of the big players here are guilty of it. Yes, it's against the rules. No, we don't have an official statement from the mods saying that we can. I think that the best way to describe it is that the rules are basically "rules" to a lot of our newcomers and "guidelines" for the more experienced. Let me explain, since this just sounds like a way for us to promote stupidity amongst people we like and shut out dissent.

The Kiwi Farms is, well... it's a site for talking about Internet weirdos. And yes, this can easily be interpreted as and perceived as a bullying forum. In fact, we redirect from the former CWCki Forums, which was a website that was, you guessed it, a site that discussed and documented Christian Weston Chandler, an Internet minor celebrity in how easy he was to troll, and in its earliest incarnations that forum also facilitated troll attempts. We're not the only place that does this. There are places like 9gag or /cow/ or our friends over at Encyclopedia Dramatica Forums that similarly do what we do - talk about and mock Internet weirdos.

The thing that differentiates us, or at the very least what I believe makes us different, is that 99% of the time we try to be mature and simply observe and mock a lolcow for what they are, rather than trying to manipulate them into being our toy. This is primarily due to the changing feelings of the community after Golden Age Chris ended, as Chris became rather reclusive and paranoid after repeated trolling, which basically caused his content to dry up. If we hadn't prodded him and continually harassed him, we might have had Sonichu 11. This is why we don't like to stir up drama. We look up weird shit and laugh, and if the weird shit is still going on we similarly continue to document it and laugh. Simple as that.

So... Len. Why are we antagonizing him? Well, it wasn't intentional, really. In fact, like I said earlier, Len is a lot like Golden Age Chris. It started by purely pointing out this weirdo who did this weird thing and we all laughed at it. And, like Chris before, he noticed it and went fucking ballistic. He tried to run damage control. He tried to discredit us. He tried to intimidate us. And we laughed and laughed and laughed. Of course, when people like this try to stir shit up in the Farms, some Kiwis try to take subtle digs at us. I wrote a compendium of Len's autism earlier and I can basically say that the First Doxxing Saga was the one time a Kiwi managed to get directly to Len, which also showed how, like Golden Age Chris, he's gullible and stupid and believes everything, which just helped promote how this shit happened. It grew out of hand, and as you can tell, the earlier parts of the Len thread are filled with people that were basically doing the equivalent of NOTICE ME LEN-SENPAI DOX ME INTO YOUR LENSPIRACY. A lot of us are guilty of it, and it certainly did not make the mods like us at all. He came at us, we laughed at him back, and it all kinda snowballed out of control.

So why are we continuing? Well, first off, after Len got throttled here on the Farms and retreated to Facebook to harass us, most of us aren't really going after him anymore. The last two people to contact Len in detail were @Kirby and @PropaneAccesories, and both of them have already basically cut their ties with Len after he got boring and/or too creepy to continue. Are there some Kiwis probably still talking with him? Probably. We're all full of idiots. The idiots dumb enough to share it and look for a like are the ones that get banned because it's unfunny as shit. Most of Len's activities are from a network of w.eens. W.eens are weens. No, seriously, that's what w.een filters to when you don't type it with the period. Try it sometime. I won't go into the terminology and history behind w.een because it's irrelevant and rather boring, but the point is that we have lurkers on the Farms (or just some stupid Kiwis in general), and some of them are taking the piss out of Len for their own laughs. This is what's primarily fueling Len's autism, along with Kaufman and Hy. The majority of us and the majority of the thread is just us documenting it, laughing, and talking about how stupid it is. We sometimes make personal addresses to Len in these threads (and I'm guilty for a lot of it), but it truly shows how fucking autistic someone is when you screenshot what some idiot says on a forum you don't even post in, post it on your own site, and then bash it there. Now if we went and harassed him on his Facebook or on his actual FB account, that would be considered weening on our part. That shit is generally unfunny, uninspired, and just causes Len to run off like a fucking pussy. We lose our lulz, the guy looks like a moron, and the cow disappears off the radar. No one really wins (except the cow until he shits himself).

So, why are we mocking him? Well, some of us have contributed genuine advice. Hell, a lot of us do contribute genuine advice to a lot of the cows here. In fact, back when we were Chris-centric, there was a lot of "White Knighting" to Chris. Chris pretty much set the standard for our operational procedure with White Knights, but a lot of cows have held up to that standard so it's an all-encompassing term. Overall, one thing that makes a lolcow a lolcow (and why we love laughing at them) is a lack of self-awareness. I know this is an answer that you won't personally like and will probably disagree with, and I understand. I'm similarly a sap and, personally, I do reach out to some others that I feel aren't beyond the brink yet because I genuinely want them to improve, because I'm not a sociopath and I don't actually like seeing these idiots torpedo their lives and credibility into the dirt. However, you have to understand that some people, like Len, are fucking beyond help.

Yes, there are people that are beyond help. You can't save everyone, and you especially can't save someone that doesn't want to save themselves. To take an excerpt out of our very own CWCki:

As good as your intentions may be, there is no conceivable way any old e-friend can reach Chris at this point and change him for the better, certainly not by continuing to ass-pat and pamper him, which is precisely what fucked him up so badly in the first place (as this wiki evidences copiously). Your efforts will unfortunately fail, and he will just brush you aside, seeing no difference between you and the trolls, for daring to tell him anything he does not want to hear. With each new incident he causes, it is increasingly obvious that little short of professional intervention, the intercession of GodJesus, or a horrifyingly close brush with death will change him.

Though the trolls have certainly tried to be a positive influence on Chris, even they are now largely admitting that Chris is well beyond our aid. They have spent years trying to pierce Chris's many insulating layers of self-deceit, egotism and sheer stubbornness. It is worth bearing in mind that it is these people, not the white knights, that are the closest thing he has to friends, and that some of them have been at this for nearly a decade. With all the never-to-be-released material they're sitting on, they know him, and if they can't make Chris change, what on earth makes you think you can?

To conclude, with Chris's paranoia, detachment from reality, outlandish behavior and bellicosity all becoming steadily more severe, and with interventions by trolls and white knights alike failing, the best we can hope for is that Chris causes some sort of trouble that leads to him receiving the help he needs.

In other words, better people have tried and failed, and you are not going to be the special someone that succeeds in penetrating Len's fucking concrete block of a skull and makes him see reason. He's not going to recognize there's a problem. He's not going to see you as a friend or even talk to you (unless you show boobs, because then he'll just keep asking if he can fuck you). Unless he fucks up severely (which he has, thankfully), Len will always be like this. This is the endgame for all people like him. They will keep fucking up until they do something incredibly stupid and society shuts him away or he dies alone in obscurity, shitting his pants in the process. I'm sorry, but that's the harsh reality of it. People like this need help, but if they lack self-awareness or are simply to stubborn to get help or accept treatment, they simply won't get help. All you can do is move on and try to help someone willing.

Let me put it more like this, in case you still don't get where I'm coming from. Suppose you come across two starving people in Africa. If you hand food to one of them, he will eat it. If you hand food to the other person, he will furiously throw it to the ground and stomp on it until it is inedible and useless. Who will you give your help to? Because, quite honestly, if you keep giving help to people who simply keep refusing it, you just look like the fucking idiot.

One more disclaimer, but we have people from all over the spectrum, from mental illnesses to other quirks. They got help and are now able to function in society. We don't mock people for being different. We mock people for being stupid. Whether it's from a mental illness or whether or not you're just fucking retarded is irrelevant. You can always get help. If you push it away and continue shitting your pants, you are worthy of nothing more than ridicule, period.

And to answer your final point... yeah, we're not often civil and the mods actually get overworked trying to curb the more emotional outbursts we have. A lot of cows can hit you on a personal level, whether it be Len with how he's a creepy pedophile doxxing innocent people or whether it's Dobson being a smug, conceited asshat that is shitting on everyone on a professional artist level despite being a mediocre little ponce. That's normal. We're human. We often overreact and post without thinking. Again, self-awareness. If you acknowledge that you fucked up and strive to improve, we'll probably not care at the very least. Len is someone who will defend his fucking stupidity and mistakes to the grave, and at this rate, he probably actually will.

That is the fate of Len. He is a fucking idiot who will not recognize that he fucked up, and shoves away anyone that helps him. He deserves nothing but the shiv he's going to take up the ass in prison.

I'm sorry, but if you don't like that, then you're probably not going to like us and the Farms. Sorry about that.

Well, this was rather depressing to write up. Here's a selfie of myself with the top of my shirt unbuttoned and no pantsu. Enjoy.

Spoiler: so lewd and legit

 

[Frank Rizzo]

Firstly thanks to @Ouija Board and @TM Ambrose for informative responses. I'll risk a followup. With serious apologies if this is off topic and happy to take it somewhere else or just shut up...

Off Topic: I've red that pink box in detail - a few times - (and it certainly makes this site seem like there are some ground rules vs others which appear to have no such rules or concerns). As I understand trolling, isn't there a ton of it going on in the main Shaner thread? That's one of the things that interests me here. It would appear that there are very pro-active attempts to engage Shaner and his w.eens outside of the site on social media, sms, etc. and then cross post material here. Folks are actively "talking to him" (and them) in their posts. Is that not Trolling? I get the whole "gossip site but...sic...for eccentric people on the Internet" thing. What I'm thinking about is how to help mentally challenged adults, and particularly ones with autism who fit the profile you're describing, from being "sucked in" to something like what's going on here. Also in this particular case, it would appear to me that Shaner is a mess in all the ways you cite but that he must be diagnosed with mental disabilities (I thought I saw references to diagnosis for Downs, autism, and MR along the way)? If that's the case, wouldn't he be an example of someone with an actual disorder? When does observation and commenting turn interactive and seek to engage someone who is mentally disabled and that reinforces and encourages more bad behavior or worse? And finally - I'd guess that the pink box "Be Civil" statement would be the most "bendable" rule but the main Shaner thread certainly becomes uncivil in the ways cited many times.

You'll have to pardon me if I'm not quite convinced you legitly have a non "Taking the piss out of the Kiwi Farms" interest in this.

Something about your posts is just.....I dunno, it still seems like your taking a subtle, passive aggressive swipe at us.