Lolcow Leonard F. Shaner II - Discussion Edition and Now With Less Autism (see the OP)

[Kiwi Koala]

My PMs bassically amount to @Sanae Kochiya's post, except slightly more diplomatic. In addition, I gave them the rundown on other times rules have been bent (Vade), or thrown out the window (Nick Bates).

 

[manuhiri]

@Frank Rizzo It's hard to not come across that way when you're trying to process something that you find upsetting and possibly confusing. There's nothing truly passive aggressive from me. Everyone should do what they want. I've been very transparent about my interests on the board and in PM. It's not my cup of tea probably but if it's yours, that's fine with me.

@Sanae Kochiya Thanks for taking the time to write such a complete response. Very informative. Nice manga pic too

And to all, I'll say again, I do not have any connection with Len and his crowd (and I don't believe your prior socks were in fact socks either and as I said in my original post). I work in mental health, specifically in autism, and I can't afford to dox myself so you'll have to keep your own council on if I'm posing. I've a particular interest in kids who are transitioning into adulthood and who've been diagnosed with autism and similar. Many of these people lack self awareness, are able to navigate the Internet, are compulsive and obsessive, have self stimulatory compulsions, and sadly come from broken homes (68% of kids with autism parents are divorced by the time they reach 8 years old and the majority are being raised by, usually overtaxed, single mothers). It's not hard for me to imagine, even with the best intentions and support, many could end up like the cows in @Sanae Kochiya 's list. And while I guess it makes me a sap by the standards here, it would be nice to hope that the ones who can get (and would benefit from) help do. I'm slowly coming to appreciate that there are some participants in this particular community who share that view, at least to a point, and make an effort to help others either directly or with the guidelines of this forum. I think there are likely also just some trouble makers and worse here. And that's life. In my childhood, there were still residential mental facilities where those "beyond help" would go to live. They were horrific places. One near where all this is going on, Penhurst (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennhurst_State_School_and_Hospital), is now a halloween attraction and the scenes and reports from there during operational days were frightening (I've interviewed several workers from these places myself). Are prisons better? When these institutions closed, many of their "residents" were turned out to live in group homes. Some worked, some did not. Maybe Shaner would end up in such a place if they operated today, who knows. Certainly the advent of the Internet and the ubiquity of smartphones and bandwidth means that these folks are exposed to much larger groups of people than 50 years ago. Maybe Len is interesting because he's one of the age group "in the seam". I mean young enough to use the Internet and social media but old enough that he grew up in a time (and a location) when the diagnoses and support were unavailable. Older people would have been part of a smaller less connected community who dealt with them more directly and younger ones are part of an organized approach to support autism and mental diagnosis. I will say that one of the issues with the Farms is that some of the other like communities cited in @Sanae Kochiya 's list are much more aggressive being so overt as to have postings about how to eliminate autism from the gene pool. One has to get past that, and accusations of identity and passive aggressiveness, to get to the dialog going on here with @Kiwi Koala @Ouija Board and @Sanae Kochiya. I appreciate that anyway and thank you all.

 

[Frank Rizzo]

Gigantic wall of text

Your non-use of paragraphs is quite headache inducing, no offense.

While I still don't fully believe you're who you say you are (or rather, your reasoning is your reasoning), I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and let you do your thing, I guess.

 

[manuhiri]

Your non-use of paragraphs is quite headache inducing, no offense.

While I still don't fully believe you're who you say you are (or rather, your reasoning is your reasoning), I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and let you do your thing, I guess.

Apologies, I will add paragraphs from here on out. I didn't want anyone to think my writing style looked like anyone else's so I bagged the paragraphs. I wish there was an easy way to convince you of who I am not but I can't figure out how so I guess it is what it is.

 

[Kiwi Koala]

@manuhiri, I'm liking your post on good faith that you're completely unconnected to Len. I respect your opinion, but I do disagree with it. As I said in the PM, if this were a different setting I'd enjoy having this discussion with you. That said, as unlikely as I am to change your mind on this topic, you're just as unlikely to change ours. That's acceptable, it's simply the nature of the beast.

 

[Frank Rizzo]

Apologies, I will add paragraphs from here on out. I didn't want anyone to think my writing style looked like anyone else's so I bagged the paragraphs. I wish there was an easy way to convince you of who I am not but I can't figure out how so I guess it is what it is.

Unfortunately, you've registered to a forum where things similar to what I've described happened. People will "show up" under the guise of being neutral observers and "subtly" bash us and defend lolcows, and 9 times out of 10, it'll turn out to either be the lolcows themselves or people associated with the lolcows.

You might not like it, but unfortunately, some people (myself included) just aren't going to blindly take your word for it that you're a legit neutral party. We've seen too many "neutral parties" turn out to be lolcow defenders/socks to do that.

Edit: Hell, when Len Shaner first showed up, in his very first post, he claimed he "Wasn't taking any sides here" before he went about bashing us and defending himself (or, in his guise anyway, defend "Mr. Shaner".

 

[manuhiri]

@manuhiri, I'm liking your post on good faith that you're completely unconnected to Len. I respect your opinion, but I do disagree with it. As I said in the PM, if this were a different setting I'd enjoy having this discussion with you. That said, as unlikely as I am to change your mind on this topic, you're just as unlikely to change ours. That's acceptable, it's simply the nature of the beast.

We agree on all of that. I believe that you have enough clues in the PM to work out that I am not connected with Len.

Again, the posts from @Sanae Kochiya @Ouija Board and yourself have been really informative. I'm glad you all took the time to enlighten me. I'll probably just go back to lurking mostly.

 

[Sanae Kochiya]

I will say that one of the issues with the Farms is that some of the other like communities cited in @Sanae Kochiya 's list are much more aggressive being so overt as to have postings about how to eliminate autism from the gene pool.

Of the groups I listed, I would describe the Farms as the one least likely to cause irl drama without legitimate cause. People like Nick Bate we only intervene because we document legitimate proof of illegal activities going on (in this case, child molestation). It's distasteful and horrific. Otherwise, we make a habit of avoiding ever putting up "dox" of people that they don't already post already. Most "dox" we have on people are dox they've posted themselves, and quite honestly if they're dumb enough to put up their address then they deserve it.

I understand the idea of wanting to help these people out of the rut they're in, but you're hardly the first one to feel that sentiment. People don't become as noteworthy and as laughed at as these people without a history of ignoring advice and pushing away legitimate help. If we're talking about these people, chances are they're either at or past the point of no return and they're simply unwilling to change. Very rarely do lolcows ever have an epiphany and work to better their lives. We've followed people like Chris-chan for more than a decade and he's almost as delusional and as stubborn as he was when he started. At that point, you just gotta know when to pack up your stuff and leave.

I understand that it's best to think that no one is past redemption, but realistically, it's better to try and help as many people as possible than to drag your feet trying to save the ones who don't want help. You'll just hurt everyone else in the long run, yourself included.

Whether you stick around on the Farms or leave is up to you. What we do isn't particularly tasteful so if you leave I won't be surprised, no offense. At the very least, thanks for not turning the Discussion thread into a circus act. That's for the main topic.

Apologies, I will add paragraphs from here on out. I didn't want anyone to think my writing style looked like anyone else's so I bagged the paragraphs. I wish there was an easy way to convince you of who I am not but I can't figure out how so I guess it is what it is.

Apologies for the paranoia. We've had recent incursions from foamers, EDiots, Loveshies, and Tumblrinas. White Knighting is generally considered frowned upon and it's a good way to cast a negative light on yourself. I know that it seems fucked up that "maybe this guy isn't so bad" is now considered a bad thing, but the last time we've entertained it, we got harassed with strawmen and logical fallacies. Most people lost patience with these guys and it usually ends rather... messy.

But Len, Kaufman, and Hy all type like autistic spazzes who took up English as their second language when they barely grasped their first, so it's easy to differentiate yourself from them. Just type normally and usually it's easy to tell that you're not with them. ... That or they're your evil twin and you should really look into seeing who's been gathering your DNA.

 

[manuhiri]

Unfortunately, you've registered to a forum where things similar to what I've described happened. People will "show up" under the guise of being neutral observers and "subtly" bash us and defend lolcows, and 9 times out of 10, it'll turn out to either be the lolcows themselves or people associated with the lolcows.

You might not like it, but unfortunately, some people (myself included) just aren't going to blindly take your word for it that you're a legit neutral party. We've seen too many "neutral parties" turn out to be lolcow defenders/socks to do that.

Edit: Hell, when Len Shaner first showed up, in his very first post, he claimed he "Wasn't taking any sides here" before he went about bashing us and defending himself (or, in his guise anyway, defend "Mr. Shaner".

Well, again, there's not much we can do about any of that. That's the nature of anonymous boards.

I certainly have sympathies, as I've openly admitted, to those who are the targets of observation and comment here. And I do believe that there are some here who probably go across some "lines". And now I believe that there may be some here who are more decent than my original guess. So that, at least is progress on my side.

If you need to continue to believe that I've a direct connection with Shaner and his people, there's not much I can do to help you and it probably doesn't really matter does it? I guess if you feel strongly that I'm part of the Shaner axis, then you could ask the mods to ban me and likely I won't go to the trouble to create another account to continue the discussions and you'll be well rid of me :-)

 

[Frank Rizzo]

Well, again, there's not much we can do about any of that. That's the nature of anonymous boards.

I certainly have sympathies, as I've openly admitted, to those who are the targets of observation and comment here. And I do believe that there are some here who probably go across some "lines". And now I believe that there may be some here who are more decent than my original guess. So that, at least is progress on my side.

If you need to continue to believe that I've a direct connection with Shaner and his people, there's not much I can do to help you and it probably doesn't really matter does it? I guess if you feel strongly that I'm part of the Shaner axis, then you could ask the mods to ban me and likely I won't go to the trouble to create another account to continue the discussions and you'll be well rid of me :-)

I never *did* say I was going to do that. Just because I'm suspicious of you doesn't mean that I'm going to go to the mods.

Your paranoia and condescending use of a smiley aside, like I said, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for the time being and let you do your thing.

 

[TM Ambrose]

Off Topic: I've red that pink box in detail - a few times - (and it certainly makes this site seem like there are some ground rules vs others which appear to have no such rules or concerns). As I understand trolling, isn't there a ton of it going on in the main Shaner thread? That's one of the things that interests me here. It would appear that there are very pro-active attempts to engage Shaner and his w.eens outside of the site on social media, sms, etc. and then cross post material here. Folks are actively "talking to him" (and them) in their posts. Is that not Trolling? I get the whole "gossip site but...sic...for eccentric people on the Internet" thing. What I'm thinking about is how to help mentally challenged adults, and particularly ones with autism who fit the profile you're describing, from being "sucked in" to something like what's going on here. Also in this particular case, it would appear to me that Shaner is a mess in all the ways you cite but that he must be diagnosed with mental disabilities (I thought I saw references to diagnosis for Downs, autism, and MR along the way)? If that's the case, wouldn't he be an example of someone with an actual disorder? When does observation and commenting turn interactive and seek to engage someone who is mentally disabled and that reinforces and encourages more bad behavior or worse? And finally - I'd guess that the pink box "Be Civil" statement would be the most "bendable" rule but the main Shaner thread certainly becomes uncivil in the ways cited many times.

Typically a person with autism can become a well adjusted adult, but some refuse to make an effort (See OPL). As i've mentioned a lot of members are autistic but are really cherished members, and that's mostly because they've learned to keep their tism on the dl. You don't have to be waving a puzzle piece flag all the time, and if you do and are being a total ass about it then yes, we will probably bring it up. (Which is why the saying: Don't feed the trolls stays true). Trolling is allowed off site. We're not organizing any trolling efforts in the main Shaner thread, mostly we're just taking a piss out of what he said.

 

[QT 219]

@Frank Rizzo It's hard to not come across that way when you're trying to process something that you find upsetting and possibly confusing. There's nothing truly passive aggressive from me. Everyone should do what they want. I've been very transparent about my interests on the board and in PM. It's not my cup of tea probably but if it's yours, that's fine with me.

@Sanae Kochiya Thanks for taking the time to write such a complete response. Very informative. Nice manga pic too

And to all, I'll say again, I do not have any connection with Len and his crowd (and I don't believe your prior socks were in fact socks either and as I said in my original post). I work in mental health, specifically in autism, and I can't afford to dox myself so you'll have to keep your own council on if I'm posing. I've a particular interest in kids who are transitioning into adulthood and who've been diagnosed with autism and similar. Many of these people lack self awareness, are able to navigate the Internet, are compulsive and obsessive, have self stimulatory compulsions, and sadly come from broken homes (68% of kids with autism parents are divorced by the time they reach 8 years old and the majority are being raised by, usually overtaxed, single mothers). It's not hard for me to imagine, even with the best intentions and support, many could end up like the cows in @Sanae Kochiya 's list. And while I guess it makes me a sap by the standards here, it would be nice to hope that the ones who can get (and would benefit from) help do. I'm slowly coming to appreciate that there are some participants in this particular community who share that view, at least to a point, and make an effort to help others either directly or with the guidelines of this forum. I think there are likely also just some trouble makers and worse here. And that's life. In my childhood, there were still residential mental facilities where those "beyond help" would go to live. They were horrific places. One near where all this is going on, Penhurst (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennhurst_State_School_and_Hospital), is now a halloween attraction and the scenes and reports from there during operational days were frightening (I've interviewed several workers from these places myself). Are prisons better? When these institutions closed, many of their "residents" were turned out to live in group homes. Some worked, some did not. Maybe Shaner would end up in such a place if they operated today, who knows. Certainly the advent of the Internet and the ubiquity of smartphones and bandwidth means that these folks are exposed to much larger groups of people than 50 years ago. Maybe Len is interesting because he's one of the age group "in the seam". I mean young enough to use the Internet and social media but old enough that he grew up in a time (and a location) when the diagnoses and support were unavailable. Older people would have been part of a smaller less connected community who dealt with them more directly and younger ones are part of an organized approach to support autism and mental diagnosis. I will say that one of the issues with the Farms is that some of the other like communities cited in @Sanae Kochiya 's list are much more aggressive being so overt as to have postings about how to eliminate autism from the gene pool. One has to get past that, and accusations of identity and passive aggressiveness, to get to the dialog going on here with @Kiwi Koala @Ouija Board and @Sanae Kochiya. I appreciate that anyway and thank you all.

For someone who claims to work in the mental health field, you sure as shit don't understand how Internet communities work, let alone this one. Only someone massively autistic and asshurt would waste this much time creating an account, pretending to be a braniac on a website where the soup du jour is making fun of that exact type of blithering sperg. That being said, this isn't a place for you to speculate about the treatment of autistics. This is a discussion thread about a 46 year old, pants-shitting, autistic, pedophile, railfan foamer who can't keep a steady job because he's too much of a fat, fucking narcissist and his equally idiotic, faggot friends who create non-stop sockpuppets in-between breaks from fucking each other in the ass over a mound of dirty diapers and Thomas the Tank Engine bedsheets.

Thanks for playing.

 

[Rin]

Well, again, there's not much we can do about any of that. That's the nature of anonymous boards.

I certainly have sympathies, as I've openly admitted, to those who are the targets of observation and comment here. And I do believe that there are some here who probably go across some "lines". And now I believe that there may be some here who are more decent than my original guess. So that, at least is progress on my side.

If you need to continue to believe that I've a direct connection with Shaner and his people, there's not much I can do to help you and it probably doesn't really matter does it? I guess if you feel strongly that I'm part of the Shaner axis, then you could ask the mods to ban me and likely I won't go to the trouble to create another account to continue the discussions and you'll be well rid of me :-)

Other people have explained the general issue better than I can, but I'd also like to direct you to this page on our wiki: White Knight. In particular, pay attention to the list of reasons not to white knight. While this is specific to Chris, many of the reasons listed there apply to Len as well.

 

[manuhiri]

For someone who claims to work in the mental health field, you sure as shit don't understand how Internet communities work, let alone this one. Only someone massively autistic and asshurt would waste this much time creating an account, pretending to be a braniac on a website where the soup du jour is making fun of that exact type of blithering sperg. That being said, this isn't a place for you to speculate about the treatment of autistics. This is a discussion thread about a 46 year old, pants-shitting, autistic, pedophile, railfan foamer who can't keep a steady job because he's too much of a fat, fucking narcissist and his equally idiotic, faggot friends who create non-stop sockpuppets in-between breaks from fucking each other in the ass over a mound of dirty diapers and Thomas the Tank Engine bedsheets.

Thanks for playing.

Well aren't you just a joy and the smartest fucker here. Thanks for bringing the asshole side of the board to the discussion. Fuck off.

 

[Frank Rizzo]

Well aren't you just a joy and the smartest fucker here. Thanks for bringing the asshole side of the board to the discussion. Fuck off.

Someone's getting a little bit defensive.

And here I thought you didn't care about what we thought/said.

 

[WireSponge]

Well aren't you just a joy and the smartest fucker here. Thanks for bringing the asshole side of the board to the discussion. Fuck off.

@Gook Choy had to put up with Len for about 2 years. He is a much better judge of Len's personality than you. Also, great job keeping your calm.

 

[manuhiri]

Someone's getting a little bit defensive.

And here I thought you didn't care about what we thought/said.

I don't but no one likes to be called names. You accused me of being passive aggressive but I'd say @Gook Choy 's comments toward me were flat aggressive.

@Gook Choy had to put up with Len for about 2 years. He is a much better judge of Len's personality than you. Also, great job keeping your calm.

I've never defended Len. I appreciate @Rin pointing me to the article on white nighting. I wasn't trying to be such for Len although one could consider my interests to be such for a community at large.

 

[Frank Rizzo]

I don't but no one likes to be called names. You accused me of being passive aggressive but I'd say @Gook Choy 's comments toward me were flat aggressive.

Well.....Did I not warn you before hand that this was gonna happen? That some people are going to look at you and be a little skeptic of why you're here?

But hey, your basic response was "That's their problem, I know I'm truly here to be neutral.", so don't act all indignant/shocked that you're not being treated with kid gloves.

 

[WireSponge]

no one likes to be called names.

If you're going to be offended by a little name-calling, you should just leave. This is a site dedicated to laughing at people on the Internet. What did you expect? He was referring to Shaner, by the way, but you aren't making a very good impression of yourself either.

I've never defended Len. I appreciate @Rin pointing me to the article on white nighting. I wasn't trying to be such for Len although one could consider my interests to be such for a community at large.

Just to repeat, we aren't referring to actual autistics. You need to understand the difference between sarcasm and being serious.
Also, please refrain from doubleposting in the future. Next time, just edit your previous message.

 

[manuhiri]

Well.....Did I not warn you before hand that this was gonna happen? That some people are going to look at you and be a little skeptic of why you're here?

But hey, your basic response was "That's their problem, I know I'm truly here to be neutral.", so don't act all indignant/shocked that you're not being treated with kid gloves.

Who was shocked? In the nature of the board, I think, I said exactly what I meant there? No? I have a thick skin, I can take it. I can also freely call a spade and spade. And that sort of aggressive post deserved what it got: fuck off.

If you're going to be offended by a little name-calling, you should just leave. This is a site dedicated to laughing at people on the Internet. What did you expect? He was referring to Shaner, by the way, but you aren't making a very good impression of yourself either.

Just to repeat, we aren't referring to actual autistics. You need to understand the difference between sarcasm and being serious.

Sigh, I do. Ok, I'm not going to dig any deeper here. If you read his post his shot was at me, not Shaner. And I'm not offended just calling back.