Sounds entirely like your opinion if you ask me. You shouldn't be trying to sell all of this as self-evident because it obviously isn't.
I'm not racist myself but you claiming that a pretty, blonde, white woman has more haters than a popular, effeminate black man in itself is awfully optimistic. In the 80s, at that...
Are you old enough to remember the 80's? If you aren't, a lot of seemingly self-evident things would surprise you.
All three were huge MTV and pop radio stars. However, unlike Madonna and Michael Jackson, Prince actually was played on rock radio stations, whose listeners were almost exclusively white and predominately male (as they still are today, but now they are much moreso and much older) The only other black man on rock radio at the time was the long-dead Jimi Hendrix, unless Thin Lizzy counts, which they probably shouldn't. Jackson got some rock radio airplay during the Thriller era, but not after. Madonna never got on rock radio. Thus, Prince appealed to a wider demographic than the other two, even if the others surpassed him in overall sales. But I'm not here to talk about Prince, I was making a point about Madonna's less universal white-black, male-female, gay-straight acceptance.
I couldn’t see the videos linked to above as it says it won’t play in my country. I found this guy trying to explain what happened though, which was interesting.
Vocal coach Tristan Paredes reacts to Madonna singing Like a Prayer live at Eurovision 2019. Massive auto tune fail here Instagram: https://www.instagram.com...
youtu.be
Has nothing to do with the overall subject, which is an aging pop star, aging badly. In this case, I guess the performance wasn’t completely her fault.
She’d look better if she didn’t get surgery and stayed a brunette. Her cheeks are puffy in a bloated way while the fine lines around her eyes and mouth betray her age so, with the horrible bleach blonde hair, she looks like a creepy sex doll that’s beginning to fall apart. She’s lucky bold lips are in right now otherwise she wouldn’t (mostly) get away with those overdrawn red sausages to hide how deflated they really are.
Are you old enough to remember the 80's? If you aren't, a lot of seemingly self-evident things would surprise you.
All three were huge MTV and pop radio stars. However, unlike Madonna and Michael Jackson, Prince actually was played on rock radio stations, whose listeners were almost exclusively white and predominately male (as they still are today, but now they are much moreso and much older) The only other black man on rock radio at the time was the long-dead Jimi Hendrix, unless Thin Lizzy counts, which they probably shouldn't. Jackson got some rock radio airplay during the Thriller era, but not after. Madonna never got on rock radio. Thus, Prince appealed to a wider demographic than the other two, even if the others surpassed him in overall sales. But I'm not here to talk about Prince, I was making a point about Madonna's less universal white-black, male-female, gay-straight acceptance.
Agreed. Younger ppl probably don’t understand how little awareness of gay culture and gay men was in the general public until the past twenty years. No one thought of MJ or Prince as gay or femme. I mean people didn’t even think of Liberace as gay in the 1960s ffs.
As a little kid in the 1980s I didn’t even know Michael Jackson was black. MJ traveled around with small white boys on the regular for a decade plus before anyone thought it was suspicious.
The black musicians of 1960’s and Motown records made a lot of headway for black male musicians by the 1980s. I would say being a white woman in music in the 1980’s was far harder than being a black femme man. But neither MJ or Prince we’re viewed as femme in the 1980’s either. You had tons of straight black and white men imitating them and their fashion. I don’t ever recall MJ or Prince ever being viewed as a “faggot” like Boy George was in the 80s.
Women (white and black) were truly treated like disposable sexual commodities in the pop and rock music industry and got very little respect up until the last thirty years. All the executives and producers were men who expected women musicians to fuck them to get ahead. If they bruised male egos then they were doomed. I mean Ike Turner besting the shit out of Tina was tolerated for years within the industry ffs.
Madonna was one of the first who demanded she be put on par with the high earning men in music once she was racking up the hits, and she gets my respect for that. (Make no mistake she had to grovel and suck dick to get her big breaks in the biz.)
The story of the Runaways is a good look at the rampant sexual abuse of girls in the industry, or browsing any Star magazine - a magazine teaching pre-teens how to be rock groupies in the early 70s. Fanny was a great all-girl rock band that basically gave up after getting tired of being expected to fuck any man in the industry they needed to work with.
Madonna got a lot of attention because she refused to be treated like most women in the industry. Madonna used sex for her own gain and fame, instead of letting men in the industry do it for her. She reimagined and packaged herself as a commodity rather than let a bunch of horny record industry dudes do it.
Wow, that's crazy. Even with the post-production though you can hear how bad it was originally...
Absolutely recommend the interviews for further embarrassment. I couldn't find individual videos for them but timestamped the full show below. (Sorry it's not embedded - I tried that but it popped up a warning about content from ECB? or something who didn't want it played on this website/application, so I guess they've restricted it.)
Here we see Quavo, whoever that is, seemingly stoned off his head. When asked about what it's like to perform with a legend like Madonna, he remarks that it's pretty cool because his Mom grew up listening to her music. (2:41:14 if timestamp doesn't work).
The day has come! After months of preparation and two Semi-Finals, acts from 26 countries will compete in the Grand Final of the 2019 Eurovision Song Contest...
youtu.be
Madonna, managing to out-cringe a Eurovision presenter. For those of you who have never seen Eurovision - this is a miraculous feat. (2:33:18 if timestamp doesn't work).
The day has come! After months of preparation and two Semi-Finals, acts from 26 countries will compete in the Grand Final of the 2019 Eurovision Song Contest...
The EBU have US geoblocked on their Youtube, that's because Viacom technically has the US broadcasting rights but gave up trying to show it on their LGBT network this year. Shame. But I suspect the geoblocking might also have been related to Madonna showing up...
In any case, Madonna went down with the Eurovision crowd real bad, there was nothing respectable about the way she conducted herself on the night. I mean, we know why the EBU and Israel's broadcaster sought her, Madonna's always been a gay icon, and you really don't get a show that flaunts it's gay appeal like Eurovision does.
But Madonna tends to be a rebel and well...Eurovision isn't the place for that, it's generally a rule that people put whatever beef each nation has with each other aside for the sake of the music and the delegations for the week. Being a jerk to the people representing their countries isn't going to change anything and just makes you look bad on the night. The whole idea of Eurovision from Day 1 was to encourage friendly competition and understanding over aggression and war.
We all know Israel is awkward, just like having Russia or Azerbaijan host is awkward with their history and human rights records (heck go back far enough and most Eurovision countries have issues that could upset people...). But the rules are, whoever wins gets the right to host, Israel won fair and square.
Anyway, so we've had a good finals evening, no trouble and everyone including the host nation has behaved well. In rolls Madonna who's been paid 10 million (apparently) and been hyped since Thursday when she finally signed her performance contract. She didn't show to rehearsals, didn't meet any of the 26 acts. But then she rolls up and does an interview, sexually objectifying the *gay* male presenter who has a married partner. But it's okay because it's Madonna lol
Then she gets on stage, butchers one of her classics and then does a really obvious "fuck you" to the EBU and broadcasters with her little act in the middle, sneaks in some Palestine flags and auto-tunes her way out.
That crowd was full of gay people from around Europe, a lot of whom know in Palestine they would not be accepted as they are and maybe even killed for it. That stadium had been loud all night, but there was a huge hush when she starts her "Little Miss Rebel" bull. As far as Palestine is concerned, you shouldn't even be taking Israeli money, let alone setting foot in their land if you support their cause.
At least Icelands act put out their Palestine flags without being paid 10K for the privilege.
MDNA SKIN is developed by Madonna to defy the boundaries of science for game-changing results. Created to outperform of one history’s greatest performers.
www.mdnaskin.us
Here she's charging 250 US dollars for 1 ounce of water and mineral oil. Pardon me, HOLY WATER and mineral oil. Five times the HOLY WATER!
Agreed. Younger ppl probably don’t understand how little awareness of gay culture and gay men was in the general public until the past twenty years. No one thought of MJ or Prince as gay or femme. I mean people didn’t even think of Liberace as gay in the 1960s
That isn't true. Society has always been aware of gay people as far back as the 1920s. (Check out the song "Masculine Women, Feminine Men" at YouTube). The press didn't talk about it unless the person himself admitted it publicly and no one's publicist would allow them to do that, so it never got recorded. When Liberace died, his manager went on TV to blame it on the watermelon diet. I remember when Paul Lynde died. The newsman on TV with a straight face said, "Mr. Lynde was found deceased in his bed by his masseuse." Everyone knew what that meant and they were imagining what it looked like in their heads. The difference was that slander and libel laws were feared back then. Liberace was called out by a British scandal columnist and sued. He won and the British courts declared him legally "not gay". Rock Hudson, Jim Naybors, Little Richard, Charles Nelson Reilly, Rip Taylor, Nancy Kulp, most of the cast of Bewitched... everybody knew and everybody talked about it. It just wasn't printed for fear of lawsuits.
MDNA SKIN is developed by Madonna to defy the boundaries of science for game-changing results. Created to outperform of one history’s greatest performers.
www.mdnaskin.us
Here she's charging 250 US dollars for 1 ounce of water and mineral oil. Pardon me, HOLY WATER and mineral oil. Five times the HOLY WATER!
There’s was a totally odious piece in the NYT magazine yesterday that was just 3000 word rim job of Madonna. The author was falling over herself in worship of Madonna, it was embarrassing to read and shocking the NYT published such a fluff piece devoid of even the faintest hint of criticism. It was particularly awful for going on about how well Madonna is doing at 60 instead of completely humiliating herself by chasing after the young and hip like some vampire. Madonna could have been interesting and paved a new way to show how female pop stars can age, but instead she's followed the sad, well worn path of many famous females who desperately try to hold onto a long gone youth and young fans.
That isn't true. Society has always been aware of gay people as far back as the 1920s. (Check out the song "Masculine Women, Feminine Men" at YouTube). The press didn't talk about it unless the person himself admitted it publicly and no one's publicist would allow them to do that, so it never got recorded. When Liberace died, his manager went on TV to blame it on the watermelon diet. I remember when Paul Lynde died. The newsman on TV with a straight face said, "Mr. Lynde was found deceased in his bed by his masseuse." Everyone knew what that meant and they were imagining what it looked like in their heads. The difference was that slander and libel laws were feared back then. Liberace was called out by a British scandal columnist and sued. He won and the British courts declared him legally "not gay". Rock Hudson, Jim Naybors, Little Richard, Charles Nelson Reilly, Rip Taylor, Nancy Kulp, most of the cast of Bewitched... everybody knew and everybody talked about it. It just wasn't printed for fear of lawsuits.
People in the media and more cosmopolitan circles certainly understood about gay life and culture decades ago because many were members of it. Gay men and women were well represented in fields like writing, journalism, theater, TV, movies, fashion, etc... even if they were somewhat or very closeted to colleagues. This one reason they did protect other gay people and not publish stories about their sexuality. This extended beyond gay people though, I mean most people in the news business knew JFK and MLK were sleeping with all kinds of women but never printed a peep about it. The FBI sent info with details and recordings to journalists of MLK having orgies and sex with random women, and none of them published a word about it. It was just not kosher to meddle in sexual personal lives back them, bad decorum. Serious news wasn't about what went on in the bedroom.
But I was referring to your average American in the Midwest or smaller cities from 1900-1990 who was totally oblivious. Outside of large cities gay people were tightly closeted or pretending to live a straight life so they were invisible. Only by the 1980's the AIDS in the crisis really put gay people in the wider public eye for the first time.
Before the 1980's stuff about being gay wasn’t printed, or it was done in a very sly way that only people in the know would recognize, and the majority of middle America was extremely naive about gay people. My elderly female relatives were SHOCKED in the 1990's when people like Liberace and Rock Hudson were outed as "gay." I had people of my mother's generation tell me they didn't even know what gay people were until they were in their 30's. It's not that they didn't recognize gay people, it's that they didn't even know they existed. Men were a bit more in the know due to pornography or being hit on by closeted men and their fathers might have warned them about "faggots"
People that grew up in NYC, LA or Chicago during the mid-century tended to know what gay people were. People that grew up in suburbs and small towns of Ohio, Idaho, North Carolina, Kansas, etc.. usually did not. There has always been gay communities and culture, but it was so closed off and separate from small town middle America as to be non-existent.
I was talking about middle America too. You didn't need "gaydar" to know what was going on when you watched Gomer Pyle or saw Truman Capote was on the Carson show. People weren't that dumb. Even small towns had that guy at school who was "light in the loafers".
She’d look better if she didn’t get surgery and stayed a brunette. Her cheeks are puffy in a bloated way while the fine lines around her eyes and mouth betray her age so, with the horrible bleach blonde hair, she looks like a creepy sex doll that’s beginning to fall apart. She’s lucky bold lips are in right now otherwise she wouldn’t (mostly) get away with those overdrawn red sausages to hide how deflated they really are.
She's a fool. She should have gone for a mature, real look and made another album like Ray of Light. Instead she once again is acting like she's a 25 year old pop tart. Her new look and songs are pure garbage. It's a shame really.
I was talking about middle America too. You didn't need "gaydar" to know what was going on when you watched Gomer Pyle or saw Truman Capote was on the Carson show. People weren't that dumb. Even small towns had that guy at school who was "light in the loafers".
My southern grandparents loved Gomer Pyle, never in a million years would they have believed he was gay. They thought he was a wonderful gospel singer. I remember Jim Nabor's cassette tapes in their car.
It's not that they were dumb, its just that it either didn't occur to them it was a possibility or just as often they thought gay was so "bad" or "evil" they certainly would never think that nice hair dresser, wonderful singer, actor or choir director was an evil homosexual.
There’s was a totally odious piece in the NYT magazine yesterday that was just 3000 word rim job of Madonna. The author was falling over herself in worship of Madonna, it was embarrassing to read and shocking the NYT published such a fluff piece devoid of even the faintest hint of criticism. It was particularly awful for going on about how well Madonna is doing at 60 instead of completely humiliating herself by chasing after the young and hip like some vampire. Madonna could have been interesting and paved a new way to show how female pop stars can age, but instead she's followed the sad, well worn path of many famous females who desperately try to hold onto a long gone youth and young fans.
Madonna didn’t pull punches as she went off on the NYT profile that was released Wednesday, calling it “further proof that the N.Y.T is one of the founding fathers of the Patriarchy.” She states that she is sorry she spent even 5 minutes with the author, and that it “makes me feel raped. And yes I’m allowed to use that analogy having been raped at the age of 19.”
Lol, whut? Maybe I should read the rest. I stopped almost half way through because the slobbering praise and ass kissing was so OTT. If that article suddenly turns heel against Madonna That’s hilarious, but even funnier if it didn’t and Madonna is furious no matter how much you kiss her 60 year old ass.
My southern grandparents loved Gomer Pyle, never in a million years would they have believed he was gay. They thought he was a wonderful gospel singer. I remember Jim Nabor's cassette tapes in their car.
I don't think you understand what it was like. It wasn't that you had to address the fact that he was blatantly gay. It was that he didn't present himself as that. It was fine because he didn't put the picture in your head about what he was actually doing with that "masseuse". As long as someone was just a funny swishy guy in the center square on Hollywood Squares it was fine. The lack of acknowledgement and the distance in being on TV made it safe to accept it. Even your grandparents knew that Gomer was doing ungodly things. He was just cute enough and discrete enough to get away with it in their eyes.
I'm thankful you've brought this topic up because I should have said something earlier: saying homophobia was invented in the 90s is probably the dumbest thing I have ever read in the entirety of my time on this website. For starters, the Bible says a man shall not lay with a man and woman shall not lay with a woman (and goes to call it anabomination), and that's really the only argument I feel the need to make towards such a blatantly stupid and unaware worthless claim.
Madonna sure loves co-opting "deep" socio-political shit she knows nothing about. Confusingly, she tries to do that while also being a skimpy pop diva? Those two things don't really gel. Lady Gaga was somewhat close to pulling it off, but that's because she allied herself with the LGBT right from the beginning. For Madonna, politics is a total after-thought; she realized it was hip to be "woke" and tried to cash in way after the bandwagon pulled out of town.
That isn't true. Society has always been aware of gay people as far back as the 1920s. (Check out the song "Masculine Women, Feminine Men" at YouTube). The press didn't talk about it unless the person himself admitted it publicly and no one's publicist would allow them to do that, so it never got recorded. When Liberace died, his manager went on TV to blame it on the watermelon diet. I remember when Paul Lynde died. The newsman on TV with a straight face said, "Mr. Lynde was found deceased in his bed by his masseuse." Everyone knew what that meant and they were imagining what it looked like in their heads. The difference was that slander and libel laws were feared back then. Liberace was called out by a British scandal columnist and sued. He won and the British courts declared him legally "not gay". Rock Hudson, Jim Naybors, Little Richard, Charles Nelson Reilly, Rip Taylor, Nancy Kulp, most of the cast of Bewitched... everybody knew and everybody talked about it. It just wasn't printed for fear of lawsuits.
This is veering pretty far off-topic, but gay/bisexual people have literally been around as long as humans have. It's a naturally-occurring behavior in not only our species but numerous others. The word, "gay" wasn't used to describe homosexuality until the forties, though. Gay culture, as in, masculine women and feminine men being percieved as gay, varies greatly between cultures and is sort of difficult to pin a time period on. Historically, gender-non-conforming behavior was not associated with homosexuality in the West until the last few hundred years, if that. Although designations between "tops" and "bottoms" has existed in some form since Ancient Greece.
Large-scale discriminatory measures against homosexuality were rare before the rise of Abrahamic religion. People in the ancient world were mostly just "whatever" about it, with the exception of some cultures that glorified it, like Golden-Age Greece and the Ancient Gauls.
Being gay as an identity and not just a natural behavior is also relatively recent. Late nineteenth century is where I would place the beginning of that in Western Culture. As far as what you guys are talking about- normies being able to look an a celebrity and speculate on their sexuality- that began in earnest in the sixties, I think, after the whole sexual liberation thing, and it really kicked off in the seventies after Stonewall.
Granted, I wasn't there, but I've talked about it with my Boomer parents before, and that was their impression, too.
As far as what you guys are talking about- normies being able to look an a celebrity and speculate on their sexuality- that began in earnest in the sixties
Oscar Wilde is the earliest example I can think of. But pop culture celebrities probably didn't really exist much before that, so it may be a lack of celebrity, not the fact that people weren't aware of gay people. I don't think any of this is recent at all. I think it all goes all the way back. Gay people have always been living along side straight people.
Average folk in the the US never minded gay people as comedians on game shows or playing pianos with candelabras. They thought it was funny and enjoyed it. They just didn't want to be informed about the specifics of what was going on behind closed doors. If that part was kept under wraps, Rock Hudson could be a sex symbol, Johnny Ray could cry, and Dom Deluise could camp up scenes in Burt Reynolds movies. Everyone knew and no one cared.
Average folk started objecting to gays in the 60s because they marched and rioted, not so much because they were gay. It didn't matter if it was women's lib or gay lib or racial equality... They hated the upheaval and lack of control over society more than they hated the individuals. There were exceptions of course. Every person is bigoted differently, and there were pockets of society that were less tolerant. But if you look at the overall popular culture of the 20th century, you'll see that it was relatively open to differences in people. That was actually a selling point.
