Magic The Gathering

[DootSkeleton]

Yeah, but those are all options with Jace and NOT options with Thoracle. Thus Thoracle is harder to interact with because the set of cards which can deal with it overlaps with the set of cards that can deal with Jace and there's additional cards in the set.

Like you point out above, "Get Lost" is a 2 mana solution for Jace, it is NOT a solution for Thoracle - so how is Jace harder to deal with than Thoracle?

Planeswalkers have less methods to deal with them than creatures. Yes Oracle can still win even if it dies, but it's easier to shut down compared to Jace. One notable pro in being a creature is Cavern of Souls.
Easier to win with, but easier to stop.

If the Oracle player isn't completely decked out, it's answered by any creature removal. If the Oracle player IS empty decked, you can answer it with Stifle, Dress Down, or Torpor Orb effects.

Of the cards I listed thar deal with Jace, 8 of them are one-card clean answers, half fringe.
The number of cards that stop Oracle from winning while empty decked that are regularly played is 7, 3 fringe.

 

[Oddjob OTP]

EI is too efficient period. It's banned in Legacy too. It was so good 4C piles were splashing for it.

Pioneer isn't a fetch format, you can't splash for free. EI was banned because Phoenix, the only other decks that played it were Niv to Light because they might as well and Izzet Creativity which both float somewhere between T1.5 and T2 depending on the wind. Maybe Jeskai Ascendancy did but I dunno that's a deck I've never looked into because it's a cringe combo deck and it's never been ported to MtGA.

 

[Owlbear]

They should just ban all Modern Horizons sets from Modern at this point. Surprised The One Ring is still legal.

Grief and Nadu were a good start. The one ring is now going to be oppressive, though. Masters Horizons sets (including the LoTR rainbow) are terrible for the game.

For the longest time, the defining difference between legacy and modern was the free spells. Importing that with the forces and then the elementals was just grotesque.

 

[Retink Retunk]

Masters sets

Nitpick but masters sets were just reprints to keep supply available in formats, Horizons and Universes Beyond is the shit pumping in random new crap.

 

[Noebel]

People who play Commander and ONLY Commander are a blight on the game.

Nah. Rotating formats are ultimately for goyim with too much spare money.
Modern is now a semi-rotating format because of the horizon sets, so see above.

 

[AnotherPleb]

Planeswalkers have less methods to deal with them than creatures. Yes Oracle can still win even if it dies, but it's easier to shut down compared to Jace. One notable pro in being a creature is Cavern of Souls.
Easier to win with, but easier to stop.

If the Oracle player isn't completely decked out, it's answered by any creature removal. If the Oracle player IS empty decked, you can answer it with Stifle, Dress Down, or Torpor Orb effects.

Of the cards I listed thar deal with Jace, 8 of them are one-card clean answers, half fringe.
The number of cards that stop Oracle from winning while empty decked that are regularly played is 7, 3 fringe.

4 mana is a hell of a lot more than 2 mana, and at the moment there's not enough stifle effects to provide counterplay. Commander revolving around ETB shit means WOTC is pretty averse to printing too much of that effect for cheap.

With Thoracle you can easily hold up interaction to spell pierce the stifle. Not as easy with Jace, and any thoracle player is holding it in hand until they're geared to win. Jace is also hurt as much as he is helped by being a pw because creatures are a lot easier to search up.

 

[Monolith]

Also the fact this thread is filled with based Lowryn enjoyers is why I can't hate you beautiful autistic faggots too much.

I also want the new Tarkir set, because new Tarkir set means high likelyhood of Tarkir DND books, means I can call Alesha "the Eunuch Khan" in character.

 

[Flexo]

Planeswalkers have less methods to deal with them than creatures. Yes Oracle can still win even if it dies, but it's easier to shut down compared to Jace. One notable pro in being a creature is Cavern of Souls.
Easier to win with, but easier to stop.

What??? The only divergence between the two is that forced draw effects can cause a thoracle player to lose while helping the Jace player. Otherwise...

If the Oracle player isn't completely decked out, it's answered by any creature removal.

??? It's absolutely not answered by any creature removal. You can Murder/Bolt the merfolk all you want and it does nothing to prevent the win of its ETB trigger.

If the Oracle player IS empty decked, you can answer it with Stifle, Dress Down, or Torpor Orb effects.

Stifle applies equally to Jace's +1 ability, so this actually negates your point as those effects are essentially an answer for both.

So that leaves us with the humility-like "blank creature" effects and ETB suppression on stuff like Torpor Orb which amounts to....
7 total cards that I've found so far. But let's be gracious and say it's 10 possible solutions for Thoracle which don't apply to Jace.

Now all the instant speed cards which can destroy a planeswalker (and/or creature but that doesn't apply to Thoracle) which i can find total...
Around 30. And that's not even digging into all the possible damage spells that could possibly deal 5 or more to Jace and taking him as well. Or looking for "exile" effects which are... like another half dozen.

Now I'm pretty sure 30 > 10.

Of the cards I listed thar deal with Jace, 8 of them are one-card clean answers, half fringe.
The number of cards that stop Oracle from winning while empty decked that are regularly played is 7, 3 fringe.

You just admitted here! 8 > 7! Jace has more answers than Thoracle. Even going by your "fringe" standard (which is apparently "whatever bullshit I can make up") the totals are 4 = 4. So again, how does Thoracle have "more" answers when you even admit they tie???

(this would be a lot of fun to hit a Jace player with)

 

[Polock]

?? It's absolutely not answered by any creature removal. You can Murder/Bolt the merfolk all you want and it does nothing to prevent the win of its ETB trigger

Technically if their remaining deck size = devotion to blue + 2 and you kill oracle, you will prevent them from winning the game because devotion is checked at the spell or ability resolution.

So yes, they're right in specific edge cases, which means you are completely BTFO'ed and pwnz0rd, never post around me or my son ever again.

 

[Flexo]

Technically if their remaining deck size = devotion to blue + 2 and you kill oracle, you will prevent them from winning the game because devotion is checked at the spell or ability resolution.

So yes, they're right in specific edge cases, which means you are completely BTFO'ed and pwnz0rd, never post around me or my son ever again.

lol Legit made me laugh. Touche, sir.

Though that seems like such a rare occurrence everyone would remember and talk about it for years. (like the game where we thought a player was going to win with Aot2ndSun and I actually drew up into an "Everybody Lives" before that player's turn)

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

, I'm saying that Arclight Phoenix is the card to ban out of Arclight Phoenix

If you wanna kill the deck outright Sure.

Cast Jace, it resolves, active player still has priority and activates +1 to 5 loyalty targeting himself, win.
Very few instants exist that are good enough to see play can kill Jace after he activates.
From my searching the cards good enough to see play in Modern or Legacy, your options are:
two Bolts
Red Blast
Pyroblast
Fell the Profane
Edit: adding Tishana's Tidebinder
Stifle (might buy you a draw step)

You Forgot Brazen Borrower, and a major difference between Jace/Labman and Oracle is that if your Jace/Labman are interacted with while you are attempting a win you instantly lose, Thoracle is safer in that respect because you don't instantly lose if you are going for a win and it gets countered.

Cube is great fun. Commander is the niggercattle format. People who play Commander and ONLY Commander are a blight on the game.

Commander had jack and shit to do with why Competitive Magic has gone to shit, people playing only Commander is a reaction to every legitimate constructed format repeatedly being trash at one point or another over the past decade and quite frankly the only point of Competitive Magic is to try and make it to the big stage...but nobody can clearly explain how one is supposed to do that anymore.

I have Gripes about Commander but at least it doesn't Implode once a year like Standard, Pioneer, Modern and Legacy do.

 

[Oddjob OTP]

If you wanna kill the deck outright Sure.

Which brings us back around: if they have such a problem with the deck that they keep banning cards that are mid in every other deck every couple years (or threatening to) they should probably just ban the deck.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

Which brings us back around: if they have such a problem with the deck that they keep banning cards that are mid in every other deck every couple years (or threatening to) they should probably just ban the deck.

They probably don't want to outright Ban the deck itself.

It is kinda how they have always operated, they do the same thing in Vintage with Mishra's Workshop. You can call him a faggot or whatever for being Trans Allies and whatever..but I think SaffronOlive was correct when he said that "They should bring restricted to non Standard Formats"

A middle ground of a powerful card not destroying the format in every match and still being able to play your cards is something that should at least be tried. If you are a high end player going to sanction events..understanding a restricted list should be easy.

 

[DootSkeleton]

4 mana is a hell of a lot more than 2 mana, and at the moment there's not enough stifle effects to provide counterplay. Commander revolving around ETB shit means WOTC is pretty averse to printing too much of that effect for cheap.

Correct. That's why the 4 mana spell is, appropriately, worse overall but harder to deal with. I also wasn't referring to Commander. Just Modern and Legacy.

Jace is also hurt as much as he is helped by being a pw because creatures are a lot easier to search up.

Outside of the now-banned Nadu, the combo decks playing either Jace or Oracle aren't playing those cards. They draw a ton of cards, search for something without restriction, or reanimate their Oracle (point against Jace: reanimate effects). They're also the types of deck to consider Pact of Negation.

In Modern, the best decks that play Oracle that weren't Nadu are, in order, Jeskai Breach, Ad Nauseam, Neobrand, and Oops All Spells. Ruby Storm and Belcher use it and Breach in the sideboard as a backup win condition.
Jace sees almost no play in Modern outside of rogue combo decks like Kethis and Belcher, and very rare fringe play as a backup win con in some 4C One Ring Omnath builds.

In Legacy, the best decks that play Oracle are Doomsday, Cephalid Breakfast (which now usually includes Nadu), Paradigm Shift, Thought Lash, Dredge, and Oops All Spells. The best two by far being Doomsday and Breakfast.
The best decks that play Jace are Doomsday, High Tide, Paradigm Shift, and Thought Lash.
High Tide is notable that it includes Jace but not Oracle, since once it goes off mana isn't an issue.

Stifle applies equally to Jace's +1 ability, so this actually negates your point as those effects are essentially an answer for both.

It buys you a turn at most. Oracle is a 2/2 that does nothing after a Stifle. Jace can activate again next turn and win. Or win the same turn if his controller has a draw spell like Brainstorm.

Now all the instant speed cards which can destroy a planeswalker (and/or creature but that doesn't apply to Thoracle) which i can find total...
Around 30. And that's not even digging into all the possible damage spells that could possibly deal 5 or more to Jace and taking him as well. Or looking for "exile" effects which are... like another half dozen.

Now I'm pretty sure 30 > 10.

Cards like Eliminate can't hit Jace, and the cards in your search that are CMC 3 or greater that aren't MDFCs are stone unplayable.
I also ran a search for exile removal that hits Planeswalkers and found that Baleful Mastery is fringe, March of Wretched Sorrow is playable (was unplayable before Necrodominance). What's playable in Modern and Legacy is different, with a bit of overlap. I'm lumping them together for convenience.

going by your "fringe" standard

Fringe just means "on the fringes of playability" for the respective format. Tocatli Honor Guard is fringe because it's a Torpor Orb on a stick that's a human.

You Forgot Brazen Borrower, and a major difference between Jace/Labman and Oracle is that if your Jace/Labman are interacted with while you are attempting a win you instantly lose, Thoracle is safer in that respect because you don't instantly lose if you are going for a win and it gets countered.

Good call. Borrower is an excellent card. I didn't mention the instant loss condition of Jace being bounced since most times Oracle's trigger is dealt with its usually a functional instant loss as well. The times when you're not decked and Oracle is killed and don't win with the trigger is also usually an instant loss. Breach decks are probably exempt from that rule.

Commander had jack and shit to do with why Competitive Magic has gone to shit

When the designers of the game are designing for Commander first, even in sets like Modern Horizons? Yeah, major fault lies with Commander.
Not every "clearly designed for Commander" card is dogshit like Morophon. All it takes is one Hogaak or Nadu to completely fuck a format up for months.


Overall Oracle is definitely the better card simply because, like @AnotherPleb said, 2 in Magic is so much less than 4.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

When the designers of the game are designing for Commander first, even in sets like Modern Horizons? Yeah, major fault lies with Commander.
Not every "clearly designed for Commander" card is dogshit like Morophon. All it takes is one Hogaak or Nadu to completely fuck a format up for months.

Okay explain the formats being fucked up before that then.

Cause Eldrazi Winter wasn't because of Designed for Commander
Post Origin's standard wasn't Designed for Commander
Oko sure as fuck wasn't designed for commander because Beast Within is a common Green Card and the play testers didn't apparently ever play that card
Nadu "being designed for commander" is just a cope to distract from the fact IT WAS NOT FUCKING PLAYTESTED
Just like The One Ring.

Is it "MUH COMMANDUR" or is it WOTC being lazy faggots and not playtesting cards.

 

[Danny.exe]

Is it "MUH COMMANDUR" or is it WOTC being lazy faggots and not playtesting cards.

Both apply in Nadu's case. As far as WotC not testing goes, Aaron Forsythe is willing to admit that they often release cards they don't test.
But designing for Commander is also obvious when you look at many cards to come out as of late. More legendary creatures, more use of "each opponent", land destruction cards replacing what they blow up and usually only targeting non-basic, Assassin's Creed being direct-to-Modern but having the Freerunning mechanic be "an Assassin or commander" and the fact that nearly every major set release has 2-4 Commander precons along with it, with some sets being exclusively for Commander.
So even if you love Commander as a format it's hard to reject the idea that WotC's new cash cow is being milked for every last drop, even if constructed and limited have to suffer. It's the primary reason why people only know MTG as Commander and nothing else.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

So even if you love Commander as a format it's hard to reject the idea that WotC's new cash cow is being milked for every last drop,

Yes to the detriment of the format.

, even if constructed and limited have to suffer.

You talk like they wouldn't suffer anyways.

It's the primary reason why people only know MTG as Commander and nothing else.

No the primary reason people only know MTG as Commander is because WOTC has never managed The Pro Tour Scene sensibly and the "ESPORTS" Era completely and utterly killed it.

 

[Danny.exe]

Yes to the detriment of the format.

Definitely, but that's the expected outcome when you take a casual game variant and force it to be a main face of your game. It becomes soulless and, in the case of "cEDH" mostly solved until you dump even stronger cards.

You talk like they wouldn't suffer anyways.

In some ways they would, but a case like Nadu's can directly prove that Commander has enough influence on design to shape what cards get printed and how they're worded. Even for direct Commander product there's a specific range of cards/decks they want to foster for casuals, although sometimes cards from them end up being breakouts that are deemed too unfun by the RC.
I can agree that MTG is in a poor state and there are several factors to it, however. Draft can get extra swingy with bonus sheets for example.

No the primary reason people only know MTG as Commander is because WOTC has never managed The Pro Tour Scene sensibly and the "ESPORTS" Era completely and utterly killed it.

That's definitely of note but the whole pandemic shit killed off most in-store and pro play while Youtubers and Spelltable swooped in to bait existing players into focusing on Commander, who in turn tell their friends to play Commander and consequently only end up playing that variant, since it's the only thing their friend(s) play. Pro-level MTG was in a shaky state before COVID swept over it and really put the nail in, and the Commander push cleaned up most of the scraps and led to a new way of playing to get highlighted. Even now WotC is doing an awful job at trying to revive these scenes.
Shit, even Oathbreaker couldn't take off after being sanctioned and it's like a diet Commander. Whether that's because the format itself sucks or because players are too entrenched in what's familiar and "safe" to them is hard to say, but really makes you wonder what it'd take to get people to play other formats and variants. There's definitely no miracle solution to MTG's problems though, even if you replaced most people who are currently behind it.

 

[DootSkeleton]

Is it "MUH COMMANDUR" or is it WOTC being lazy faggots and not playtesting cards.

It's both. Nadu's final iteration wasn't playtested at all AND he was modified to be that way explicitly for Commander. Nadu isn't the only example, but it's the biggest and most recent one.

No the primary reason people only know MTG as Commander is because WOTC has never managed The Pro Tour Scene sensibly and the "ESPORTS" Era completely and utterly killed it.

Correct

That's definitely of note but the whole pandemic shit killed off most in-store and pro play while Youtubers and Spelltable swooped in to bait existing players into focusing on Commander, who in turn tell their friends to play Commander and consequently only end up playing that variant, since it's the only thing their friend(s) play. Pro-level MTG was in a shaky state before COVID swept over it and really put the nail in, and the Commander push cleaned up most of the scraps and led to a new way of playing to get highlighted. Even now WotC is doing an awful job at trying to revive these scenes.

Also correct

Shit, even Oathbreaker couldn't take off after being sanctioned and it's like a diet Commander. Whether that's because the format itself sucks or because players are too entrenched in what's familiar and "safe" to them is hard to say, but really makes you wonder what it'd take to get people to play other formats and variants.

Brawl crying in a corner somewhere lol

There's definitely no miracle solution to MTG's problems though, even if you replaced most people who are currently behind it.

True. My short list of steps in the right direction is:

• move away from focusing on Commander. People made due without all the stuff specifically geared for it before, they can do it again.
• revert to pre-FIRE design
• complete and total overhaul of design team
• do more sets like Bloomburrow (read: sets that feel very Magic)
• get writers and creators that don't use neopronouns, and in the future never hire them in the first place (I wish I was kidding)

 

[Oddjob OTP]

They probably don't want to outright Ban the deck itself.

It is kinda how they have always operated, they do the same thing in Vintage with Mishra's Workshop. You can call him a faggot or whatever for being Trans Allies and whatever..but I think SaffronOlive was correct when he said that "They should bring restricted to non Standard Formats"

A middle ground of a powerful card not destroying the format in every match and still being able to play your cards is something that should at least be tried. If you are a high end player going to sanction events..understanding a restricted list should be easy.

Yeah, but it's a much more interesting to me to have a lower powered format where you can play powerful cards like IE and Treasure Cruise without them being completely broken by fetches and forces then having a format for modern boomers trying to relive the glory days of sleeving up Arclight Phoenix instead of Murktide Regent in the same exact deck.