Many Saints of Newark - A movie with too many stories it wants to tell with not enough time

[CAPTAIN HAPPY]

I liked it. 7/10
Heard they're interested in making a sequel, that'd help them tie up the many loose ends.

 

[The Last Stand]

So. this isn't a series but a full movie trying to be a prequel to an eight season show? You can't do that. That's way too much to unpack in a short time frame.

 

[Kulee Baba]

So. this isn't a series but a full movie trying to be a prequel to an eight season show? You can't do that. That's way too much to unpack in a short time frame.

Hit the nail on the head.

Sopranos is my favorite TV Drama, it was the first one I got into. More than a decade later I still think about the show and the characters. The Many Saints for a fan like me is highly entertaining and the new story details it reveals are fascinating. But while it's a good Sopranos story it's not a good film by any means. The film's plotting is unfocused, pivotal decisions made by the characters happen with little rhyme or reason. I'm certain anyone who didn't watch The Sopranos would think it was garbage.

This is how I see it, David Chase effectively made a whole season's worth of story. If Many Saints had been a 10 episode season it would have been fantastic, a showing that a sequel could actually be as good as the masterpiece original. But it's a two hour movie, and it feels rushed. It feels like if someone took a full season of The Sopranos and tried cutting it down to two hours only leaving the major scenes. That might be a fun thing to watch but it wouldn't be as good as sitting down and watching the show proper. You'd lose all the little nuance, all the small things that made the original series so brilliant.

It should have been a miniseries, or Chase should have just made a conventional mobster story that could be told in the time allotted. He apparently thought he could pull off a soap opera crime drama in two hours and it doesn't work.

It's so frustrating because I can see how this story would have worked perfectly in a 10 hour episodic format. Chase is a great writer and the film is well shot and directed. But if he was trying to make an equivalent to Goodfellas or The Godfather which told a years long story with many characters he fell flat on his face.

 

[Product Placement]

Wonder if much footage was left on the cutting room floor to get it down to 2 hours. If so, hope they do a DC, depending on what the footage is, could fix many of the issues.

I'm still not sure if it would have worked as a tv show, but a Once Upon a Time in America style 4-hour long movie, I could easily see. But good luck getting a movie that long in cinemas with a wide release.

Thinking about it can't think of the last movie past 3 hours put out widely in cinemas, in fact.

 

[Kramer on the phone]

its the Entourage film all over again, a season's worth of plots in a 2 hour film. but i understand. the economics aren't there for revival seasons for the most part. thats why they do those quick and cheap Made-For-Tv movies up until the age of streaming. Honestly though i agree with others here, a full mini-series might have worked, and i think if it was announced to be exclusively HBO max or started production a few years later they would have done that. I don't know for sure, but the Snyder Cut probably did a lot to bring people to the service. the other problem is every streaming service has basically turned the mini-series into just drama2. a decade ago it meant something then the glee faggot realized it was a near guaranteed nom if he decided to make his long running drama a mini-series instead because the field is so small. Not that this is oscar material, but its certainly people's choice or golden globes material

 

[frozenrunner]

Just finished it. I agree with a lot of the comments giving it a 6/10 or thereabouts.

I actually liked the way they opened the film, but I didn't like the final line, or the Sopranos theme music being used. This is not Tony's story, and it feels like they tried to insist it was his story by adding that in. (Tony can be the focal point that the rest of the story happens around, tying all the events together, that's fine. But they didn't handle it well.) Unnecessary, especially when there's so little narration throughout the film. And really, more than unnecessary, it actually felt insulting. Even if it was planned from the beginning, it feels shoved in at the last second.

The dialogue is... often not great. It's a little too on the nose in many spots in the script. You get the feeling they think the audience is dumb and need things pointed out to them... which is really weird considering they also assume you have seen the show and remember all the characters.

And it all feels rushed. Very few scenes are given the proper time to really breathe. There's good acting and great character stuff in the movie, but I agree there's just not enough of it. A lot of the relationships are defined but not really illustrated, so it feels like info you're getting, not relationships you believe exist. Very disappointing.

Compare this to Deadwood: The Movie, which sadly came and went with little fanfare. The show deserved a final season instead of a movie, yes, but David Milch made it work. The script is flawless. There are no wasted lines or even moments. A lot is packed into the script, but it all still feels natural. Scenes last exactly as long as they need to. The actors compliment the script with nuanced performances that add crucial info. It really is perfectly paced and edited. The film is a minor miracle from TV's most talented living writer. (In my opinion.)

But this movie? I'm glad I got to see it, but it could have used some more time in the oven. Or better editing. Or a better script. I don't know... it's hard for me to say what's wrong with it at this point.

Just finished and it was okay, when you compare it to the original series it's awful.

Silvio got the absolute worst of it, it was like a character out of an SNL skit

I hate to say it, but... yeah. Silvio in the original is a strangely mannered character who somehow comes off as genuine instead of weird or ridiculous. (Though it does ride that line, intentionally in my opinion.) Steven Van Zandt's performance is great. In contrast, aside from a few little things the actor in this movie got right, like the way Silvio walks, it does feel like an over the top parody, and it doesn't really work.

And that's strange because they don't do anything like that with, say, Paulie. I'm not sure I even would have known it was him if other characters hadn't said his name.

 

[X Pac Heat]

The more I think about it, the more I think Tony and the ending is where the movie completely falls apart.

Besides the fact that Tony has nothing to do with the overarching plots revolving around the blacks, his main interaction with Dicky in the first half is promising to be good. It's the whole point of the pinky promise.

In the second half, his whole interaction with Dicky is "I need to be a good boy to play college balls. I can't be involved with mob stuff."

Then Dicky pisses him off by breaking contact, and Tony flat out says "I want nothing to do with this!", this being the mob life.

But then Dicky is murdered in cold blood in the street, and I'm supposed to think *that* is what convinces Tony he does in fact want everything to do with the mob life?

On top of this, the pinky promise with the corpse at the end makes no sense. The pinky promise was to be a good boy. The better symbolism would be that now that Dicky is dead, Tony is not beholden to the pinky promise. So why is the last shot the pinky promise?

It's such a weird feeling. Michael Gandolfini absolutely killed it playing a young Tony, but his inclusion in this story is probably the thing that brings it down the most thematically.

 

[Mola Ram]

6/10. It's got some great performances, some astonishing scenes, but in the end it's a muddled mess with no focus, and therefore incredibly frustrating.

Spoiler: Warning: The big twist is spoiled here

The frustrating part is there is the core of an excellent story here: Dickie's patricidal / Oedipal impulses culminating in the enraged murder of his stepmother/lover. Those two scenes -- Hollywood Dick's murder and Giuseppina's murder -- are by far the two most intense and arresting in the movie. The scenes with Sally Moltisanti (which to my mind are obviously dream sequences or otherwise imaginary) are similarly engaging, filling in for Tony's therapy scenes, with Dickie having heart-to-hearts with a figure who acts both as his conscience and the man he wishes his father was. If you'd taken that strand, fleshed it out, and likewise fleshed out Junior's simmering resentment of Dickie, then cut a ton of the fanservice and Lamar Odom's entire storyline, you'd potentially have a great movie. In the end we're left with an unfocused, directionless clip show with some really good scenes and performances.

Also, I'm sorry, I know it's "very Sopranos," but the way Junior's murder of Dickie was handled here was a fucking disaster. Is Junior petty enough to kill someone over such trivial issues? Sure ... but not the Junior we saw in this movie. He's barely sketched out here. Relying on the Junior we know from the series is a classic sign of a weak spinoff leaning on its source material as a crutch. The way Dickie's death plays out feels like that James Earl Jones line from the "Lord of the Flies" episode of The Simpsons: "And the children were rescued by ... oh ... let's say ... Moe."

Also, agreed that while Michael Gandolfini is very good, Tony's whole storyline feels half-baked. Part of it, I think, is the enormous amount of time they spend with him as a young kid -- almost forty minutes, if I remember right. Really should have had more focus on the teenage years and how he flitted in and out of crime. (Oooh, he stole a Mr. Softee and gave away the ice cream to the neighborhood! Weak.)

Vera Farmiga was also excellent. I admit I'm a little surprised they imply so strongly that Livia really did molest Tony. Another powerful scene, lost in the shuffle of a movie that doesn't commit to being anything in particular.

 

[Solid Snek]

On top of this, the pinky promise with the corpse at the end makes no sense. The pinky promise was to be a good boy. The better symbolism would be that now that Dicky is dead, Tony is not beholden to the pinky promise. So why is the last shot the pinky promise?

I actually felt that shot was good. It was one of the few parts of the film that really worked.

It's like Tony in the desert, after the whole Chris thing. Banging Chris' goomar, getting high on peyote, and shouting "I get it!!!", in what is ostentiably a profound, religious moment. While meanwhile, everyone in the audience is hating his fat fucking guts.

Tony is a sociopath. Melfi and her doctor friends were absolutely right about that; there is no redeeming Tony, no sense reasoning with him or trying to get him to see the light, as he'll just turn any lesson around in a way that benefits him, reinforcing the behavior the behavior he already wants to do. Tony is on the road he is, and that's just all there is to it.

Dicky says "be a good kid, Tony!", but they both know it's bullshit. They're both gangsters, neither will change and they both know it. All the soul searching and redemption - Tony through his sessions with Melfi, Dicky with his uncle and his attempts to do Good Deeds to balance out his karma - they don't matter in the end. Tony still whacks his friends, fucks their women, and does their drugs. Dicky still beats his wife, murders his family, and laughs at Junior's backpain. Be a good boy? Yeah, sure, pinky swear!

tl;dr yes, it's the height of irony for Tony to pinky swear with Dicky's corpse. But that's the point. It's meant to be ironic. It's setting up the main thesis of the Sopranos - the fact that beneath his charisma and hopes of change, Tony is, and always has been, an irredeemable asshole.

 

[X Pac Heat]

It's setting up the main thesis of the Sopranos - the fact that beneath his charisma and hopes of change, Tony is, and always has been, an irredeemable asshole.

Meanwhile, the film goes out of it's way to show that Livia and Johnny Boy basically set him up that way.

 

[Mola Ram]

Meanwhile, the film goes out of it's way to show that Livia and Johnny Boy basically set him up that way.

Johnny Boy is another character who is so underused that they might as well have cut him. The way Tony idolizes his father, contrasted with the fact that the few times we see him he seems to be a loathsome piece of shit, is something that was ripe for exploration in a movie like this. Instead he's almost a background character. I don't mind that in concept -- I really do think Dickie is a great protagonist, and plenty interesting enough to build a story around -- but this movie gives us little insight into Johnny we didn't already have.

 

[Hazel Motes]

I admit I'm a little surprised they imply so strongly that Livia really did molest Tony. Another powerful scene, lost in the shuffle of a movie that doesn't commit to being anything in particular.

What? Haven't started it yet, waiting to watch with my younger brother, but really? I mean I guess it makes sense, but Livia only reminded me of a cunt mother who was incapable of loving her children, not necessarily a molester. I understand it's the final extreme for screenwriting a bad parent to keep the twists coming, but it seems off to me. Though not totally unbelievable.

 

[Jonah Hill poster]

Someone on here said it best that the only reason they made this was because of the success that the Breaking Bad film “El Camino” received. When in reality, you can’t do that with a guy like Tony Soprano whose character is larger than life (figuratively and literally).

El Camino mainly dealt with the likes of Jesse trying to be his own man. “Many Saints Of Newark” is Tony’s son trying to outlive his father’s shadow, especially with all the random callbacks to the original, celebrated series.

I’ll literally laugh out loud if someone in Hollywood ends up trying to make a movie out of The Wire. If I recall, they were trying to do the same thing to Deadwood.

 

[Mola Ram]

What? Haven't started it yet, waiting to watch with my younger brother, but really? I mean I guess it makes sense, but Livia only reminded me of a cunt mother who was incapable of loving her children, not necessarily a molester. I understand it's the final extreme for screenwriting a bad parent to keep the twists coming, but it seems off to me. Though not totally unbelievable.

In context it makes sense, and to be fair they don't explicitly say she molested him -- over on the Sopranos subreddit they're arguing that it's just an affectionate moment between them that became an important memory for Tony. Judge for yourself when you see it.

 

[Solid Snek]

In context it makes sense, and to be fair they don't explicitly say she molested him -- over on the Sopranos subreddit they're arguing that it's just an affectionate moment between them that became an important memory for Tony. Judge for yourself when you see it.

Wait, wait, hold on. I must have missed that. When in the movie did it imply that Livia molested Tony?!

ngl, that kinda makes sense with Livia's casting - I mentioned this elsewhere, but I when I first saw Livia, I thought she was being played by Edie Falco. I assume the resemblance was a deliberate casting decision, and if Tony is confirmed to be a motherfucker then... yeah, that would make sense.

If anything, I was thinking Tony would get molested by Dicky's goomar, as that would reinforce Tony's obsession with beautiful women from the Old Country, as well as the weird Soprano-Moltasanti love/murder triangles that were dotted around the series (which they were referencing by using Chris' narration as a framing device). Plus, it'd add tension and drama between Tony and Dicky; forbidden love sparking the passing of kingship between Dicky and Tony, as it had been earlier, between Hollywood and Dicky.

Granted, none of that happened. But hey, there was only so much time in the movie, and it's not like you could cut out the super-important black gang scenes! Far more important to have Giuseppina get blacked, and whacked for... last year's social commentary(?), than to have her get Tonyed, and whacked because Tony has lifelong Moltasanti issues.

But all that aside, Tony going full Chrischan is not something I anticipated. When did it happen? Was I nodding off?

 

[Imperial Citizen]

Theories after watching the film:

Spoiler

Dickie wasn't killed because Junior was angry with him, he was killed because the whole crew wanted him dead. I'm convinced they knew he killed his father and his gooma. His black runner turns on them and murders several members of the mafia. He takes trips to a prison to even though no one is there with him. Dickie is his generation's Richie Aprile; a violent man that only survived because he was close with the boss. But the moves he makes at the end of the film set the rest of the crew off.

Remember that the RICO statutes were coming down at that time. By the end of the film, Dickie pushes Tony away from him and acting irrationally by asking Sal to turn off the lights even though people are working. It's possible that the crew thought that Dickie was going to flip, keeping Tony away as to not let him get caught up in 'this thing of ours'. Sal giving Dickie his gift also suggests that the crew was in on the hit as Sal knew that Dickie wasn't going to their Christmas party. Finding elation on him would have convinced the mobsters that he was unhinged as Tony made comments about the mob's view on medication in the show.

Which brings me to another point; why Tony viewed Dickie as a respectable figure to Christopher in the show despite their last moments being negative ones. I recall that Tony made a comment in the show that when guys like his father were alive, everyone in the crew would disparage him behind his back. But when he died, everyone said how great his father was. So Tony keeps on that tradition when talking about Dickie to Christopher. Though I do believe that Tony is sincere in his admiration. When he hears that Dickie was found with elation, either Tony thinks that Dickie was going to give it to him and that Dickie was still close with Tony, or that Tony believes Dickie was suffering from depression like he was and that convinces him to stay on with the mafia.

 

[Internet War Criminal]

Someone on here said it best that the only reason they made this was because of the success that the Breaking Bad film “El Camino” received. When in reality, you can’t do that with a guy like Tony Soprano whose character is larger than life (figuratively and literally).

El Camino mainly dealt with the likes of Jesse trying to be his own man. “Many Saints Of Newark” is Tony’s son trying to outlive his father’s shadow, especially with all the random callbacks to the original, celebrated series.

I’ll literally laugh out loud if someone in Hollywood ends up trying to make a movie out of The Wire. If I recall, they were trying to do the same thing to Deadwood.

Also, El Camino, while not perfect, serves as a great way to end Jesse's story, is self-contained, contains some great moments, and didn't overstay its welcome. It also didn't attempt to cram in a miniseries worth of plot in 2 hours.

Saints doesn't have a single scene that showcases the banality of evil and sociopaths the way El Camino did:

It's fucking brilliant.

 

[DMX DA GOAT]

But all that aside, Tony going full Chrischan is not something I anticipated. When did it happen? Was I nodding off?

When she is talking to the counselor. She tells Livia that Tony mentioned a memory where she "snuggled very close" and read him a book.

When she first emphasized the "snuggled close" I thought they were going there but then they mention the book. So I see why some people would read it as Tony trying to open up about molestation while not saying it kind of like how he handled things with Melfi.

 

[frozenrunner]

What? Haven't started it yet, waiting to watch with my younger brother, but really? I mean I guess it makes sense, but Livia only reminded me of a cunt mother who was incapable of loving her children, not necessarily a molester. I understand it's the final extreme for screenwriting a bad parent to keep the twists coming, but it seems off to me. Though not totally unbelievable.

You could read a certain scene that way, and it was clearly meant for us to wonder about that. But I'm not convinced she did. You can also see that scene as a memory Tony had of her actually showing motherly affection to him, something he remembers as one of the best memories of his life because she's a cold, mentally ill lizard bitch who almost never did it. No wonder Tony turned out to be a psycho.

I’ll literally laugh out loud if someone in Hollywood ends up trying to make a movie out of The Wire. If I recall, they were trying to do the same thing to Deadwood.

They did do a Deadwood movie. It was fucking great, improbably.

 

[Solid Snek]

Also, El Camino, while not perfect, serves as a great way to end Jesse's story, is self-contained, contains some great moments, and didn't overstay its welcome. It also didn't attempt to cram in a miniseries worth of plot in 2 hours.

Saints doesn't have a single scene that showcases the banality of evil and sociopaths the way El Camino did:

It's fucking brilliant.

El Camino was fun. It wasn't the best Breaking Bad episode, but aside from how fat Todd was, it was perfectly fine.

But Breaking Bad > Sopranos anyways, so that's not surprising.