Mechanical Keyboard Autism Thread - Because Cherry MX switches get you laid.

I need something reliable, non flashy and small which can preferably do bluetooth or 2,4 Ghz with dongle. (bluetooth preferred) I've looked at the Royal kludge RK61 (needs to be as small as possible) and it seems to fit the bill but seems almost too good to be true as it can be had for 30-40 euros depending on where I look and has a ton of things (hot-swappable switches etc.) On the other hand, I haven't looked into mechanical keyboard stuff for a few months and the prices seem to have fallen for this stuff.

I also saw the HHKB and I really like the key layout and heard good things about Topres, but that thing is about 300 bucks and I have the feeling "it was so expensive so it must be good" might play into it psychologically for people. If it'd last me a decade I think I'd be fine with it but somehow I don't think it a keyboard ever really does with normal use. Also you can't neither get replacement keycaps nor switches which gives me a bit of anxiety about a keyboard which is supposed to be "mobile", because accidents happen. I'm generally not opposed to spend more than the 30-40 bucks of the cheap one, but is there really a good reason to? I'd also not use the LEDs (which I guess would help battery life immensely) and maybe get a nicer, lower profile DSA keycap set, which also seem to have gotten cheaper. Any thoughts?
 
AmpleApricots said:
I need something reliable, non flashy and small which can preferably do bluetooth or 2,4 Ghz with dongle. (bluetooth preferred) I've looked at the Royal kludge RK61 (needs to be as small as possible) and it seems to fit the bill but seems almost too good to be true as it can be had for 30-40 euros depending on where I look and has a ton of things (hot-swappable switches etc.) On the other hand, I haven't looked into mechanical keyboard stuff for a few months and the prices seem to have fallen for this stuff.

I also saw the HHKB and I really like the key layout and heard good things about Topres, but that thing is about 300 bucks and I have the feeling "it was so expensive so it must be good" might play into it psychologically for people. If it'd last me a decade I think I'd be fine with it but somehow I don't think it a keyboard ever really does with normal use. Also you can't neither get replacement keycaps nor switches which gives me a bit of anxiety about a keyboard which is supposed to be "mobile", because accidents happen. I'm generally not opposed to spend more than the 30-40 bucks of the cheap one, but is there really a good reason to? I'd also not use the LEDs (which I guess would help battery life immensely) and maybe get a nicer, lower profile DSA keycap set, which also seem to have gotten cheaper. Any thoughts?
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The Anne Pro 2 has great Bluetooth, is under $100, and is an all-around solid keyboard, and maybe one of the best I've used under that price point. I've played around with several budget boards and this one is my favorite (but I don't care about hot swapping because I love Kailh BOX clickies). Its firmware lets you do stuff like set tap layers, try HHKB layout, etc. without doing a bunch of fiddling around with QMK. I haven't used an RK61 but it seems to have held up well as a good budget 60% with a lot of options people usually have to get from more expensive boards. I may pick one up though for testing different MX switches.

One thing to note with the AP2 and its only real annoyance (if you want to mod it) is that they come with T5 torx screws in the case that strip incredibly easily. Putting a piece of rubber band over the screw before unscrewing helps, but I recommend swapping em out for Philips head screws if you plan to crack open the case every so often for mods, soldering, etc.

People meme on the HHKB for being "fancy rubber domes" (and it is) but it's a very reliable keyboard that requires very little modification, or any at all, to be very enjoyable and easy on the hands. I got the Classic (non-bluetooth) for about $200 because it's cheaper and the spacebar is PBT. I don't know if this has changed, but for a while the HHKB Bluetooth models only came with ABS spacebars.

The layout is unique but very easy and comfortable to get used to. Protip: lightly lubing the stabs and sliders is way cheaper than silencing rings and just as effective without sacrificing tactility if you want it even quieter. I just used a light layer of Permatex dielectric grease for that. You can buy replacement keycap sets for Topre stems on various sites like KBDfans. I think even Amazon carries some now.

My HHKB has withstood a lot of use and still feels and sounds great after several years. Highly recommend. You can also easily swap out the sliders for ones with MX-compatible stems. The domes are also easy to swap, and it's way less of a pain than desoldering for a quiet tactile experience that has only improved with time.

There are budget electrocapacitive boards if you want to try a Topre-like switch without blowing a couple hundo on an HHKB, but the compact ones are usually not that much cheaper than just throwing down some cash for an HHKB Classic. RK's EC boards are quite affordable but they appear to be RealForce clones without any more compact options.

If you're into 40% form factors, they're a bit hard to find but the Magicforce 49 is one of the only budget boards I've seen with stock Gateron Clears. It has decent stock stabs too. I really love it but it definitely isn't for everyone.

Anyway, hope that helps a little and hope you find a board you like! The HHKB has held up over time and there is a level of Reddit bro consumerism that tarnishes the idea of it, but it really is just a solid, no-frills, reliable board. Also sorry for typos, on mobile.
 
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I googled around a bit longer yesterday and found the TES68, (literally meant as a key tester) which basically is a 60% keyboard with arrow keys and a few function keys on the side which I think is a good compromise in a layout. It has hot-swappable switches, and similar to the mobile HHKB, takes normal AA-Batteries, has no LEDs and supports up to three bluetooth devices and 2.4GHz. (The 100 Euro premium on the mobile version of the HHKB is absolutely crazy imo, should've called it goldtooth) It doesn't have a normal USB port though and exclusively works wireless. It also has an aluminum metal plate and silicon dampening pad, and the stabilizers for the bigger keys.

Now the stinger, it costs all of 16$. Not a typo. Of course you have to supply your own switches and keycaps but if you plan on doing that anyways, it makes a lot of sense since most default keycap sets that come with cheap keyboards are kinda crappy anyways. Now if the quality of the wireless is up to more expensive devices is of course the question, although I personally wouldn't be surprised if the expensive devices and this use the same bluetooth hardware. The special sauce that makes some devices better than others is usually in the firmware and implementation. I have no doubts this keyboard probably cheaps out there and is worse than the HHKB, maybe by a lot. After all is said and done you can get the entire thing with switches and shipping to my corner for $30 and then only have to get keycaps. The upside is how you can customize it and the price. The idea here clearly would be to get the cheap base and then splurge on the high quality keycaps/switches. From all I read, people said it's of decent quality. Downsides are no USB port, so you gotta have batteries and no fancy key reprogramming software which I don't really care about since I use linux anyways. I got the impression people in places like reddit snub their noses at the price a bit without really finding anything particularly wrong with it either. I actually think they'd like it better if it would cost $100.

Baklava said:
Highly recommend
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It does look like an interesting keyboard and I especially do like the layout. Caps Lock-Ctrl switch for example is standard on my setups and a thing I've done since forever now. Since I basically only use linux I don't need any fancy key reprogramming software. Sadly I'd have to go for the more expensive model since I need a mobile device. (I have a cherry G80-1800 I use as desktop device and am perfectly happy with, so I'm not that fancy to begin with. If I'd buy a HHKB it'd probably use it at the desktop too though)

I'm not really that worried about switches wearing down, since I think even the cheapest chinese MX clones won't wear down in any reasonable amount of time. I'm more worried about accidental spillages, drops, that sort of stuff that's part of mobile life. I'd be a lot less mad about dropping the 16$ keyboard vs. dropping the 300$ one.

...and of course keywear which is always a topic if you type a lot. A good PBT set should last many years though and there'd be no shortage of supply for good PBT keycap sets for the cheap board, especially since all the key sizes are fairly standard. I saw some replacement options here and there for Topre but they're limited. On the other hand, I don't think they'd be necessary. I got the impression too that this keyboard is less popular because it's not customizable much. (=no fancy pictures for updoots) I don't care much about customization if the base is solid. The price doesn't really bother me either, I can afford both the $16 and $300, but I'm also not a person who goes out of their way to waste money for something I feel is overpriced, if that makes sense.

Guess the big question mark is the Topre switches. Don't know them. Maybe I'd love them, maybe I'd hate them, maybe I'd also think they're ok but probably not worth $300. I think I can read many reviews but without trying out myself it's probably futile. I might actually order the HHKB this week on amazon and just send it back if I don't like it.
 
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Sorry for doubleposting but I went and splurged, got the HHKB Hybrid, a Keychron K12 with hot-swappable switches - as a comparison 60% model of the MX world (no specific cause as to why this one, just liked the metal bezel and it doesn't have these floating keys where you can look under the keyboard to see the switches, which IMO is an eyesore and looks very 14 year old gamer) and a Kensington Expert Trackball. (I wanted the biggest ball possible and I'm also "strongly" left-handed so most ergonomic devices of this kind are not an option)

The biggest surprise so far was the Trackball. Last time I experienced a Trackball was the 90s and I thought it sucked. Later on optical mice came around and I thought they'd be completely obsolete now and people still using them are hipsters or people that just hang on to what they knew. No actually - It's very comfortable to use this, a lot more comfortable than my mouse. It's not super accurate, but then it doesn't have to be. And I say that as one of those people that think that all Trackpads can eat flaming hell. I thought it'd probably take me weeks to get used to it but I was fast with it already after two hours. Bit pricey but highly recommended. I have used this thing for hours with no soreness in my arm or wrist, like on long mouse sessions. (I started to avoid with keyboard controls) There are many bad stories about the Expert and it's quality (esp. for the price) but I found them largely to be unfounded. Maybe I got a lucky model or maybe Kensington shaped up and improved it's QA, no idea. Thought I'd probably end up sending it back but definitively keeping this one.

The keyboards are more of a toss-up. Build quality of the HHKB is.. ok I guess? It feels a lot closer to my ~$70 Cherry G80-1800 than to the Keychron to be honest. It's a well made plastic case (so is the Cherrys') yes but for ~260 bucks I'd be offended if it wasn't. The keys are nicely made but then again, for the price they better be - the aforementioned Cherry also comes with PBT caps, for example. Keychron has nice looking caps, but thin and not very qualitative, I'm pretty sure these would need to be replaced soonish with heavy use, adding to the price of the unit quite substantially if you buy nice ones. Because of the metal parts and the plate the case of the Keychron feels *very* robust, the bezel was a good idea to improve the perceived quality and stability without making it too needlessly expensive by still making the rest out of plastic. It also gives the case a profile where you can't see the switches from the side. I like the USB connector on the side and the feet + the thicker appearance too but that is a matter of taste. What I don't like is the Lithium Battery integrated and permanently charging when plugged into USB. That'll eventually kill the battery with no recourse. The HHKB is smarter here by having replaceable batteries it doesn't even try to charge, that way you can have it connected to the computer via USB for normal use for long stretches but then take it mobile without worrying about the batteries. (and even if you use rechargeable, always be free to replace them with new ones if the old ones wear out) If the firmware of the Keychron was programmed to not charge the battery fully it'd last a lot longer but no, it's not that clever. If I keep this keyboard I'd probably modify one of the side switches to physically cut the battery off if possible, that should make it last a lot longer.

Keychron isn't programmable (except with custom firmware that kills the bluetooth functionality, apparently all the custom boards only have a very poor support for bluetooth) The HHKB is somewhat programmable. I use Linux so it's not important for me, you can program everything on the side of the computer. Probably one of these boards that run QMK would be a lot better here. With a 60% keyboard, you gotta have hotkeys. I noticed it makes you rethink how you do some things and might actually make you faster in the end.

Bluetooth on both is flawless as far as I can tell. Probably the same hardware, wouldn't be surprised.

I love the layout of the HHKB. ANSI layout on the Keychron feels a bit awkward. You can totally get used to having no arrow keys, it literally is not a big deal. (If you are reading this and ever wondered)

The Topre keys are.. nice I guess? They remind me of some very good albeit cheap rubber dome keyboards I had way back in the 80s and 90s. This is not an attack at all, these were very nice keyboards. They're a completely different beast from MX switches though and don't come from the same direction at all. The blue cherry switches I picked are a lot more crisp and sharp. They're not as good as buckling spring I also own but they have their own quality. (I really like buckling spring but it makes my fingers tired) Bit loud, but not terribly so, buckling spring is louder. The Topre switches in this un-silent version are pretty quiet, comparable in noise level if not in noise to my Cherry with black linear switches, while sounding a lot nicer. They have something mushy and soft about them, but at the same time with a quite pronounced tactile feedback that doesn't end until all the way down. It's an interesting but not a life-moving experience. I think so far I like a tactile/clicky MX switch maybe a bit better? It really is more of a toss-up than googling this keyboard made me believe. The Keychron case is noticeably hollow at the bottom which resonates quite strongly with these clicky keys and is not the best mix. The HHKB is perfect as it is.

The conclusion is I guess that the K12 is a very nice and solid keyboard with good aesthetics if you don't like that floaty gamer crap if you can get it for sub-$100 and don't need programmable keys (or bluetooth if you aren't afraid of flashing an alternative firmware) the HHKB is a solid keyboard if you do a lot of typing but a bit expensive for what it is, although you don't generally need the silenced version as it isn't loud to begin with and you also have to consider that you get the whole unit and don't need to make costly aftermarket modifications that might end up costing more than just buying this and be done with it. I also feel it's a bit of the iPhone of keyboards. Gotta have the original, no matter how good the others are. The switches might grow on me but I'm not sure I'm going to keep it for that price to find out. I am convinced it'll last a long time though (especially if you don't endanger it with the mobile life) so maybe it's worth the price then if you really like the switch.

So there you are, a review of a somewhat normal person who doesn't own 80 keyboards and 160 different switch types. Something I was desperately looking for the last few days.
 
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Baklava said:
The Anne Pro 2 has great Bluetooth
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I was surprised to see this because I have had nothing but problems with the Bluetooth on AP2. From my web searches, I'm not the only one.

It loses keys even a few feet from the computer bluetooth antenna. It goes to sleep very quickly and loses the first few keys when I type before it fully wakes up. Even getting it to pair is trouble. I tried updating the firmware a couple months ago but it didn't help.

I only use this keyboard wired and for that it's great.
 
Basil Julep said:
I was surprised to see this because I have had nothing but problems with the Bluetooth on AP2. From my web searches, I'm not the only one.

It loses keys even a few feet from the computer bluetooth antenna. It goes to sleep very quickly and loses the first few keys when I type before it fully wakes up. Even getting it to pair is trouble. I tried updating the firmware a couple months ago but it didn't help.

I only use this keyboard wired and for that it's great.
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Yeah, I've seen forum posts from people having trouble with AP2 but I've never experienced issues with binding/chatter/connectivity/etc. I know several companies manufacture the AP2 (besides Obins) so I wonder if the issue is with hardware used by certain manufacturers and not just the firmware. I think the only problem I've had was my lighting/keybinds resetting once a couple of months ago, but that was fixed after a firmware update.
 
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I'm a bit out of the loop re: engineering so take it with a grain of salt but there's actually not a whole lot of options for bluetooth hardware in devices like these, they pretty much come all from the same manufacturer. I wouldn't be surprised if all bluetooth keboards you're aware of rock one and the same chip. The secret sauce is usually in the firmware of the controller, which in cheap devices often happens to be written by some chinese electrical engineer who copy-pasted code snippets from stack exchange. Even that is less and less the case these days as manufacturers usually get some "one-size-fits-all' OEM chip solution complete with proprietary firmware blob customized by the supplier they just use in their design without even really knowing what's running on it. So who knows why you see differences, maybe the different keyboards were delivered with different versions of the firmware. Might even result in different behavior of hardware in different production runs of the same product. All is possible and usually nobody working at the companies even really knows except maybe 1-2 engineers who might or might not have left a year ago. (turnover rates in these industries tend to be considerable)
 
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Plarp said:
Recently got a New Model M keyboard from the fine folks over at Unicomp, the company that manufactures new IBM Model M keyboards. Compared to the shitty plastic keyboard I was using before, every keypress feels & sounds like magic.
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I have one as well, for my autism to feel like a 90s IBM programmer. My problem is that it's absurdly loud. I absolutely hate the "gamer light aesthetic" of many keyboards, much preferring monocolor keyboards. I know I'm not the only one that finds any RGB to just look cheap. My first mechanical keyboard was the cheapest I could find on Amazon, the Corsair K65 without RGB which actually looks respectable as a normal keyboard. It's held up fine for me, even after I played a lot of rhythm games.

1661884383590.png


I have some friends who play(ed) rhythm games who are much more knowledgeable / spergy about switches and all that. I've heard good things about Ducky Shine and the price isn't ridiculous so maybe I'll buy one in the future. The idea of group-ordering special keycaps, switches, or PCBs is too niche for me though.
 
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awoo said:
My problem is that it's absurdly loud.
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Cannot emphasize this enough... feels like my neighbors down the street can hear whenever i type. Still a good keyboard and is holding up well after six months of daily use by this autist.
 
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Yeah, Keychrons are really good value if you don't want to spend crazy money. They're bringing out a K6 Pro which is pretty much everything that you might want in a (reasonably) small keyboard, complete with programmability. They also have gay retard shit like Bluetooth etc etc.
1662078640102.png

The only problem with 60%s (apart from my standard, non-Pro K6 not letting you reprogram the 'light' button as 'End') is having one has made me 40% curious.
 
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I ended up falling down a massive rabbit hole with this. I modified the Keychron K12 a lot, got nice thick PBT dye-sub caps (designed after an old Xerox electric typewriter set) and replaced the switches with Kailh V2 box whites I like a lot. (and feel like a cleaner, ligther, less pingy version of my older Model Ms if that makes sense, I put a Box Navy on the space bar and a speed gold on the ctrl key, it's basically like the box white just with an higher actuation point) To remove the hollowness from the case and make the switches a bit more quiet, I ended up filling it with liquid silicone. I also ended up getting sick of random bluetooth problems that started cropping up (The HHKB is *a lot* better at bluetooth, it turns out, my earlier out-of-box review didn't account for it) and removed both bluetooth module and battery and reflashed the firmware with open source QMK firmware which allows you to do so much shit with a bit of C it's not even funny anymore. I now have toggleable arrow keys. While some of the functions QMK offers belong more on the side of the OS and software in my opinion (e.g. macros) it's still an amazing piece of kit.

The experience of bending the keyboard to my will in such a customized way and my adoration of this small 60% form factor really got me interested in 40% Ortho keyboards. I think that'll be my next goal when I have time.
 
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awoo said:
I have some friends who play(ed) rhythm games who are much more knowledgeable / spergy about switches and all that. I've heard good things about Ducky Shine and the price isn't ridiculous so maybe I'll buy one in the future. The idea of group-ordering special keycaps, switches, or PCBs is too niche for me though.
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don't like that the ducky has soldered switches, or maybe I'm just lazy.

picked a GMMK cause it's modular and switches/keycaps being standard (3-pin tho). you can also completely change and outright disable all the RGB modes. name's a bit cringy but it's not like anyone sees it anyway.

a local store over here had a builder where you could pick what you want and then put it together yourself, there should probably be something for burgers too (if not ordering from them directly). still came out cheaper than a ducky in the end.
 
Any one have any idea why there is a lack of super stiff (100g+) clickly switches? Box Navy + Ancient Grey would be my "dream" switch, but it seems super stiff switches are always linear. I was tempted to do a spring swap but when I tried opening up a switch I was having issues getting it back together, among some other issues.
 
stupidpieceofshit said:
Any one have any idea why there is a lack of super stiff (100g+) clickly switches? Box Navy + Ancient Grey would be my "dream" switch, but it seems super stiff switches are always linear. I was tempted to do a spring swap but when I tried opening up a switch I was having issues getting it back together, among some other issues.
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From my understanding, stock switches above 100g are rare. You had issues putting the switch back together with the stock spring?
 
AmpleApricots said:
AFAIK the springs in the box switches are different from springs in other switches, replacements might not fit.
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This was the stock spring I was trying to put back in. I also have some other box springs (ancient grey) I was going to test for a swap, but given my current issues have yet to attempt that.
 
malt ipecac said:
That's all right, but maybe I wasn't as descriptive as I thought I was. What I meant to express is basically this:
  • Typing on a standard full-size ISO or ANSI QWERTY keyboard = +0% ergonomics (baseline)
  • Typing on a split keyboard or an Ergodox or Kinesis or whatever = +X% ergonomics
  • Typing using a superior keyboard layout = +Y% ergonomics
If you keep using QWERTY but switch to a more ergonomic keyboard (I called this a "hardware-only solution") then the effect on the ergonomics of your typing situation is +X%.

If you keep using the same standard keyboard but remap the layout to, say, Colemak, then the effect on the ergonomics of your typing situation is +Y%.

If we grant that both X and Y are positive numbers, we see that the benefit of the keyboard layout applies to both the standard and nonstandard hardware setups.

You can only realize the +X% gain when you are typing on that specific keyboard. If you're using any other keyboard, you're back at baseline.

You can realize the +Y% gain when you are typing on any keyboard; your ergonomic benefit is either +(X + Y)% or +Y%
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You only realize the +Y% gain on other people's computers if you can set your layout up on them. Dvorak is guaranteed to be on everything since it's old, but it performs worse than newer layouts, including ones closer to QWERTY (colemak-dh). This isn't even including layout-independent features like layers, which minimize travel to F1-12 and home/end keys and allow usage of those keys on smaller keyboards like 60%, which saves desk space and makes the mouse easier to reach (unless you use a trackpoint). If you have a tiny ergonomic split keyboard like a gergoplex or ferris sweep, you can use firmware like VIA to store the layout on it and carry it with you, then just plug it into whatever computer you're going to use. You'll also always get the +X% gains, which is important if you have typing pains caused by the ergonomics inherent to standard keyboards (ulnar wrist deviation, wrist pronation, etc).
 
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