Mega Rad Gun Thread

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Badungus Kabungus said:
Interesting, didn't think it would be a significant enough difference in pressure that steel wouldn't suffice. From what I can find, it seems that .277 fury generally has 25% more pressure than 308, so guess it accounts for that.
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I mean, steel does suffice, the problem is that the steel alloy itself would have to be different in the base and the walls/neck. So it was always going to be have to be a hybrid case. Since it probably can't be made out of a single material, might as well do brass on the walls. Brass expands more, which has the advantages of not just sealing the chamber against fouling (which does aid in extraction as a side effect) but also creating enough friction to reduce the bolt thrust. When I found this out it sounded like kindergarten logic, the brass presses against the chamber so that reduces the force applied on the lugs? That's insane. But it's real. It's mentioned in the Hatcher's Notebook. It's like doing the Splinter Cell move of pressing your feet against two walls, you don't fall as long as your shoes grip.
Final page of this pdf
casechamber.jpg
Brass is a known variable, so the use of brass walls allows us to use conventional chamber design. If they had to use steel case walls, the chamber would have to be designed for it or else the bolt thrust would increase.
 
UVB-76 said:
I mean, steel does suffice, the problem is that the steel alloy itself would have to be different in the base and the walls/neck. So it was always going to be have to be a hybrid case. Since it probably can't be made out of a single material, might as well do brass on the walls. Brass expands more, which has the advantages of not just sealing the chamber against fouling (which does aid in extraction as a side effect) but also creating enough friction to reduce the bolt thrust. When I found this out it sounded like kindergarten logic, the brass presses against the chamber so that reduces the force applied on the lugs? That's insane. But it's real. It's mentioned in the Hatcher's Notebook. It's like doing the Splinter Cell move of pressing your feet against two walls, you don't fall as long as your shoes grip.
Final page of this pdf
View attachment 3291753
Brass is a known variable, so the use of brass walls allows us to use conventional chamber design. If they had to use steel case walls, the chamber would have to be designed for it or else the bolt thrust would increase.
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Interesting, thanks. Guess a differential heat treat of a steel case wouldn't work for this either. Well, here's hoping those hybrid cases are reliable, who knows what'll happen once they sit in a magazine for a few months in the desert heat.
 
AGPinochet said:
I have my doubts that the Sig Sauer 6.8x51 Hybrid cartridge is the Armor Obliterator that people on the internet make it out to be (at least without Tungsten Carbide) and I am making this post to detail these reasons and offer a chance at critique of my thought process.

This post is going to be a very long sperg post about things I am entirely unqualified to give an opinion on and will contain lots of math, speculation and sperging about things I freely admit I do not fully understand.
Alright Point #1. In the linked below video Garand Thumb chronographs two rounds of CIVILLIAN power Sig 6.8x51 ammunition using a very expensive scientific chronograph and obtains the following velocities, 2823fps and 2822fps respectively out of a 13in barrel with a suppressor. Shots are taken starting at 6:43

Point #2.
The below linked video shows an RMA 1189 Plate withstand 3 rounds of .300 Win Mag loaded with M2AP Projectiles and one round of M80A1 with one round of .300 Win Mag M2AP Penetrating. All shots were taken at "45-46 feet"
.300 Win Mag M2AP Muzzle velocities.
-3276fps
-3236fps
-3205fps
-3220fps
M80A1 muzzle velocity.
-3030fps


Note that the LAST round of .300 Win Mag M2AP was the one to penetrate. The stated Rockwell Hardness of the M80A1 was "48-49" (Note that this measurement was probably taken with non laboratory grade equipment, how much that matters I cannot speak to). Any Steel with a Rockwell Hardness of over 50 is considered "Hard". An image that will be inserted at the bottom of this post says that M2AP has a Vickers Hardness of 785, a Vickers Hardness of 772 is equivalent to a Rockwell Hardness of 63 according to this link.

Point #3. Assumptions
The Military versions of the Sig 6.8 are loaded to a higher pressure than the Civilian version as evidenced by the Civilian Version's lack of a Hybrid case design. Assuming that the Military version achieves 20% higher velocity than the high of 2823fps in the GT video that would give a muzzle velocity of 3387fps out of a 13in barrel, 111fps higher that the highest recorded velocity of the .300 Win Mag loaded with M2AP listed above. To my knowledge there is no publicly available data on the finalized velocity of the Military version of the Sig 6.8 and I have heard numbers ranging from 3000fps to 3500fps, I have also heard that the power was substantially reduced due to recoil concerns.

Point #4. Theoretical Counterpoints
-The Sig 6.8 projectile was designed by the US Government to do what the US Government wanted it to do
-Nobody knows if the Sig 6.8 Can Pen Level IV at all much less at any considerable distance
-The Sig 6.8 projectile was designed with modern technology and manufactured with modern manufacturing methods
-I am entirely unqualified to speak about any of this

#5. Counterpoints to those counterpoints
-This is the US Government we are talking about here, The US Government designed the projectile
-The projectile was designed by the same people who tried for more than a decade to build an Iron Man Suit and wanted to give every infantryman a computerized smart grenade launcher with a rifle strapped to it.
-The US Military allegedly used Steel softer than that found in bullets made during WW2 for their Enhanced Performance Round.
-Big Army does not always get what it wants.

Thoughts? Opinions? Am I retarded? Am I smarter than the American Government?
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I'm not as knowledgeable about that kind of stuff myself so I can't really comment on it. The big thing to keep in mind I guess is that the 6.8 is essentially a compromise caliber. It's designed to have greater stopping power than the 5.56, while still being relatively lightweight compared to 7.62. It's probably not the armor killer that some people hype it to be, but the army seems to think it's better to have a minor step up than to either drastically increase the equip load or drastically lower how much ammo soldiers carry. Otherwise, we'd be going back to 7.62 and the M14 :^)
 
Jewthulhu said:
The big thing to keep in mind I guess is that the 6.8 is essentially a compromise caliber. It's designed to have greater stopping power than the 5.56, while still being relatively lightweight compared to 7.62.
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I'd say .300 Blackout is more of a compromise cartridge along those lines; including the subsonic variant, which IIRC was the primary feature when designed. They also wanted more mass in the round, but it had to work with standard AR magazines; hence the form it ultimately took.

Whereas the 6.8 is more like a genetically engineered thoroughbred, and the can the Sig Spear comes with functions the same, but no way was it ever going to be quiet like a subsonic .300 (or even standard velocity 5.56). The suppressor on the Sig is probably even necessary, because without I'd imagine it be beyond obnoxiously loud.
Jewthulhu said:
It's probably not the armor killer that some people hype it to be, but the army seems to think it's better to have a minor step up than to either drastically increase the equip load or drastically lower how much ammo soldiers carry. Otherwise, we'd be going back to 7.62 and the M14 :^)
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In any case, the good AP stuff isn't for civilian consumption, and obtaining any as one is going to cost far more than anyone except the biggest Sig Spear fanboys (or industry influencers) would be willing to pay. And that's not even considering the connections they'll need to find any. Though no doubt the popular guntubers shouldn't have any problems.
 
Detailed Weight and ammo loadout stats for the NGSW guns are now available.
-XM5 Weighs 8.38lbs stock, 9.84lbs with suppressor and no optic.
-Combat load is 7 20rnd magazines or 140 rounds at a weight of 9.8lbs. For comparison a 210 round 5.56 combat load weighs 7.4lbs
-XM250 weighs 13lbs with bipod and 14.5lbs with bipod and suppressor and no optic.
-Combat loadout is 4 100 round belts weighing 27.1lbs (for context, an M240B GMPG weighs 27.6lbs, 400 rounds is equivalent to a GMPG) and 400 rounds of M80 ball weighs 22.5lbs. 400 rounds of M80A1 Weighs 20.4lbs.

This information coupled with my earlier post detailing doubts regarding armor penetration capabilities makes me seriously doubt Big Army is going to be able to make this work
 
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AGPinochet said:
Detailed Weight and ammo loadout stats for the NGSW guns are now available.
-XM5 Weighs 8.38lbs stock, 9.84lbs with suppressor and no optic.
-Combat load is 7 20rnd magazines or 140 rounds at a weight of 9.8lbs. For comparison a 210 round 5.56 combat load weighs 7.4lbs
-XM250 weighs 13lbs with bipod and 14.5lbs with bipod and suppressor and no optic.
-Combat loadout is 4 100 round belts weighing 27.1lbs (for context, an M240B GMPG weighs 27.6lbs, 400 rounds is equivalent to a GMPG) and 400 rounds of M80 ball weighs 22.5lbs. 400 rounds of M80A1 Weighs 20.4lbs.

This information coupled with my earlier post detailing doubts regarding armor penetration capabilities makes me seriously doubt Big Army is going to be able to make this work
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Another fly in the ointment is that companies are already working on armor to defeat 6.8, and rolling out new armor will be a lot easier and faster logistics-wise than rolling out new ammo/rifles.
 
Badungus Kabungus said:
Another fly in the ointment is that companies are already working on armor to defeat 6.8, and rolling out new armor will be a lot easier and faster logistics-wise than rolling out new ammo/rifles.
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If developing new rounds has the same effect as rolling out the gun, that seems worth it. Make everyone prepare for your wundergun and just don't spend billions deploying it.
 
Puff said:
If developing new rounds has the same effect as rolling out the gun, that seems worth it. Make everyone prepare for your wundergun and just don't spend billions deploying it.
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But then then you almost have to deploy your new wonder bullet because your old one can't stand up to the new armour.
I understand you don't want to be the guy with yesterday's gun when everyone else has a phased plasma rifle in the 40 Watt range.
I also think the impact of small arms isn't as big as people think it is.
Yes, boots on the ground are necessary to keep the gained ground, but the weapons used to get that ground in the first place are not what most folks think about.
 
DocAwe said:
But then then you almost have to deploy your new wonder bullet because your old one can't stand up to the new armour.
I understand you don't want to be the guy with yesterday's gun when everyone else has a phased plasma rifle in the 40 Watt range.
I also think the impact of small arms isn't as big as people think it is.
Yes, boots on the ground are necessary to keep the gained ground, but the weapons used to get that ground in the first place are not what most folks think about.
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But why would you make your new armor NOT stand up to the new round?
 
Puff said:
But why would you make your new armor NOT stand up to the new round?
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That's the point.
My understanding of your post was make your enemy spend gobs of money developing new armour to defeat the new bullet then never actually deploy the new bullet.
Sure, you made them spend a ton of money but now they are ahead of you armour wise, so now you have to not only deploy the new round or develop something else AND have to upgrade your armour to match.
It all becomes a zero sum game.
Imo you're better off developing weapons systems that are more effective than small arms, like small mobile multi hit warheads.
If I misunderstood your post then that's on me.
 
AGPinochet said:
Detailed Weight and ammo loadout stats for the NGSW guns are now available.
-XM5 Weighs 8.38lbs stock, 9.84lbs with suppressor and no optic.
-Combat load is 7 20rnd magazines or 140 rounds at a weight of 9.8lbs. For comparison a 210 round 5.56 combat load weighs 7.4lbs
-XM250 weighs 13lbs with bipod and 14.5lbs with bipod and suppressor and no optic.
-Combat loadout is 4 100 round belts weighing 27.1lbs (for context, an M240B GMPG weighs 27.6lbs, 400 rounds is equivalent to a GMPG) and 400 rounds of M80 ball weighs 22.5lbs. 400 rounds of M80A1 Weighs 20.4lbs.

This information coupled with my earlier post detailing doubts regarding armor penetration capabilities makes me seriously doubt Big Army is going to be able to make this work
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Given the increasing feminization of combat arms leads me think troops won't even be able to hump this rifle, let alone use it in combat.
 
DocAwe said:
That's the point.
My understanding of your post was make your enemy spend gobs of money developing new armour to defeat the new bullet then never actually deploy the new bullet.
Sure, you made them spend a ton of money but now they are ahead of you armour wise, so now you have to not only deploy the new round or develop something else AND have to upgrade your armour to match.
It all becomes a zero sum game.
Imo you're better off developing weapons systems that are more effective than small arms, like small mobile multi hit warheads.
If I misunderstood your post then that's on me.
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Realistically though, when considering "near peers," how likely are they to that quickly deploy armor that can stop 6.8? Russia has demonstrated a failure to roll out and make standard new equipment, and while the situation in China is more opaque, they appear to be slow in adoption of new infantry equipment and seem to have a lot of the corruption issues plaguing Russia. Not saying we should dismiss it as a non-issue, complacency is a bad idea, but I also doubt the average Russian infantryman will be wearing new level-x armor next year.
Cpl. Long Dong Silver said:
Given the increasing feminization of combat arms leads me think troops won't even be able to hump this rifle, let alone use it in combat.
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Have you seen the shitshow over the proposed new army fitness standards? Assuming this all goes through, weight might still be a problem, but it won't be due to "feminized" soldiers.
 
AGPinochet said:
Detailed Weight and ammo loadout stats for the NGSW guns are now available.
-XM5 Weighs 8.38lbs stock, 9.84lbs with suppressor and no optic.
-Combat load is 7 20rnd magazines or 140 rounds at a weight of 9.8lbs. For comparison a 210 round 5.56 combat load weighs 7.4lbs
-XM250 weighs 13lbs with bipod and 14.5lbs with bipod and suppressor and no optic.
-Combat loadout is 4 100 round belts weighing 27.1lbs (for context, an M240B GMPG weighs 27.6lbs, 400 rounds is equivalent to a GMPG) and 400 rounds of M80 ball weighs 22.5lbs. 400 rounds of M80A1 Weighs 20.4lbs.

This information coupled with my earlier post detailing doubts regarding armor penetration capabilities makes me seriously doubt Big Army is going to be able to make this work
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13" barrel SCAR-H weighs 7.7lbs and 7 loaded mags 11.2lbs. M5 and 7 mags is slightly lighter.
XM250 is mostly replacing the M249 at 17lbs with around 20lbs in 4 200 round belts.
 
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