Mega Rad Gun Thread

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I have the problem of thin walls and people surrounding me
virtually all weapons that are lethal enough to be considered "one shot stops" will readily penetrate most interior and some exterior walls and doors with sufficient force to still be lethal, often for quite some ways. a shotgun will literally punch holes through interior walls and can chew through hardwood and brickwork. unless your walls are made of stone, a shotgun with lead pellets is not a safe answer to avoiding over-penetration. the extremely high velocity of a rifle round combined with low mass (5.56 for example at 2700+ feet per second and weighing only 55 grains) tends to shatter the projectile, and those small fragments lose energy very quickly. however, again, pretty much any firearm that is lethal enough for self defense in the home is going to readily zip through interior walls on misses and has a chance of over-penetrating the target on a hit.

probably the only exceptions would be a .22LR or .25 ACP, maybe .410 in #8 birdshot or something, but these are not generally considered practical for personal defense. frangible ammunition also exists for this purpose but can possibly be less reliable against the intended target. again, you don't really provide details so i'm assuming the target is along the lines of an armed home invader.

if you lack confidence in your skill at arms, consider acquiring professional training at a location near you. classes can also be found via local clubs, security training courses, and tactical courses held a few times a year geared towards this sort of thing. even a course in competitive sport like IPSC or 3-gun is handy for skill building. an automatic shotgun, like any firearm, is a liability without training and some thought put into its use, limits, advantages, and disadvantages
But there may be many a scenario where I have no clue what the hell is happening.
do you plan on wearing body armor 24/7? if so, you might be best served by outright leaving the area where you are threatened - avoiding a fight and risk of death entirely or greatly reducing it. if you have enemies that are actively hunting you down, that is something to involve law enforcement for. if you aren't planning on wearing body armor consistently, then in situations where you are suddenly attacked, do you plan to have enough time to don the armor, secure it, then secure and make ready your weapon(s) for defense? would you be carrying around the automatic shotgun wherever you go? probably not.

i'm assuming that you are trying to defend your home from intruders and in the worst case scenario you will be caught unaware, which means you aren't wearing your armor and you are unarmed. the fewest barriers to being armed and armored is to have a consistent setup and vest with familiar practiced motions to then be able to engage and end the threat. the alternative is to be armed and armored at all times. most people split the difference and have a setup at home for static defense where you play to the advantages of knowing your own home's layout better than the typical intruder - and carrying concealed with significant practice and training with that concealed firearm, and be willing to use it to end the threat and get to safety. often this can involve not wearing any armor at all, or having some armor in a go-bag in a trunk or wearing concealed body armor - and that takes time to deploy and get running but its practical and works for tens of thousands of people every day.

The point of the the Tactical Gear is to make it so I know I can win just about any situation that comes up and overall to allow me to be a lot more calm in one of these scenarios if ever they come up again.
i should also address this: i have known people better trained and geared than you probably ever will be who are dead now, killed very quickly and unceremoniously because they were inattentive, caught by surprise in a bad situation, or were very unlucky. whatever confidence that "Tactical Gear" might give you when you are not being shot at with people who want you dead, and are actively working to kill you through whatever means they have is unlikely to either keep you calm or "win just about any situation". false confidence tends to get you dead.

"Tactical Gear" is not a replacement for training, practice, classroom knowledge, practice, friends and family that you can rely on, practice, having your environment prepared and considered, practice, and lastly some professional instruction and practice. "Tactical Gear" is a fantastic liability to someone that expects tools alone to fix problems rather than a trained, experienced, and prepared individual who uses them appropriately.
 
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Body armor guide from /k/ that @Null might find useful, this deals strictly with rifle plates:
body armor chart.jpg

The National Institute of Justice has testing standards for all levels of body armor, from I to IV. It's easy to cross-reference a brand, manufacturer, or model of plate/vest with the NIJ Compliant Products List, just make sure what you're buying is authentic. Stick to reputable vendors and don't try to save a buck with a sketchy website or AliExpress.

You'll also want to check out concealable soft vests for when you're out and about, as going to Target with a plate carrier on is sure to get the cops called on you.
 
The simplicity and ease of use of the AR-15 is what makes it great as a home defense weapon. Rack the charging handle to chamber a round (if you don't like keeping one chambered at all times), switch selector from safe to fire, aim at your target and pull the trigger. Multiple points of contact (unlike a pistol) and relatively light recoil make it easy to control. Shotguns can have quite a bit of recoil, making any necessary follow-up shots more difficult compared to an AR. A teenage girl can effectively deploy an AR with a little training.

Body armor guide from /k
This is a bad infographic full of stuff that's irrelevant to regular people looking for plates to buy. Null just need to find a level 4 plate from Hesco, LTC or Highcom that's in his budget and buy that. The Adept Colossus is a good option, though (as long as it's in someone's budget).
 
i've never heard the advice be literally "shoot to kill"
Ditto for every Use of Force training I've ever attended. Even in the military I saw people who weren't allowed to move on to the exercise portions of our pre-employment training and had to be rescheduled for the classroom portion if they answered that you "shoot to kill." Every course has always told us that you shoot to neutralize the threat. Totality of circumstances and being able to prove that you had a legitimate fear of bodily harm/your life that made you use deadly force is what comes into play after the event is over.

Big agree on your point about gear overall as well. Concealed carry for example is a big one where people start to believe they're invincible because they have a gun on them. Your gear does NOT mean you're going to come out on top of every situation. Your gear is there to give you a fighting chance of walking away. If you just buy $7k worth of shit and never take any courses or get out to train with it, you just became an expensive loot drop for someone else.
 
How does the B&T chassis actually handle? I’ve handled the Glock RONI before, but it made me feel like a mall ninja.
It's rock solid, especially with the A3 foregrip, but even without the foregrip it's comfortable imo. The acro is the perfect height and the length of pull on the stock is just right for me, and it's solid too. Once it's locked open, there's no play or wobble. Honestly it makes me want the true usw-a1 but I went with the g17 for parts sake. It fits right in my work bag and so now I've started taking it with me pretty much everywhere.
 
What about shotguns?
That will give you an idea of what shotguns with special loads can do, but we're talking about strange shit. They also detail what these rounds do to body armor with a slow-mo camera. That may prove informative to your needs.

I strongly recommend a good semi-auto shotgun for anyone, but not specifically for armor piercing requirements.
I'm thinking what I should get is a 7.62×51mm NATO for a marksman rifle, a 5.56x45mm NATO AR platform, and then something else for shortrange.
My suggestion is start with a 16" or 14.5/6" + permanent muzzle device (to get it to 16) AR, get a good parallax free optic (so bullets go where dot is so long as you can see the dot and what's behind it), a decent light to mount on it, and figure out how easily you can maneuver with it in your abode once you acquire the abode. How easily you can handle that gun will likely be more important than covering every scenario, and will probably inform how you want to configure your other stuff.

As for the type of optic, don't cheap out. I like aimpoints because they make parallax free red dots which take AA and AAA batteries...and they run for years kept on 24/7. I've checked twice now, almost exactly on the dot 5 years for my M4s. This may seem like a nit-pick, and some optics have "shake to wake" systems, but I vastly prefer the predictability of "no it's just on...and it always will be". The fact that it does this with batteries you can buy literally anywhere for nothing is the cherry on top.

They're not brilliant if you have astigmatism bad, but I have mild astigmatism and they're fine.

I'd suggest a BWC or a camera mount for the gun, probably cheaper, almost definitely less bulky (gopros are tiny), and accomplishes the same thing...and they also won't record your point of aim unless you have a laser. Point of aim may or may not be something you want a prosecutor to get their hands on...

In general I would not be inclined to trust scopes which record things for the nightmare scenarios you're considering having to deal with.

Re: Armor, as others already mentioned, rounds on target and shot placement is probably more important than being able to blow through armor predictably. At the point you're worried about armored tranny hulks with stupidly dense plates you're probably better off making your house make their life difficult if they come to you (like those fortified SA houses) to give you a territory advantage they can't compensate easily for.
A helmet is more important because I will have windows to peep from but I don't want to slack on the IV.

I'm leaving that here because you might actually be one of the few scenarios these make sense for: one person, no backup, and could use a corner peeking advantage. They're not exactly easy to find, or cheap, but they do work as advertised. Just remember that to shoot normal you have to twist it off and stow it, which is a huge part of why these aren't used by anyone, apart from the fact that basically anyone watching your back or flank makes them very hard to justify. You can also just use them without mounting them to look around corners too.
 
If Null is still reading past all the spergouts, I have another suggestion. Make sure you can actually shoot/train near wherever you decide to live. Knowing people who live in Florida, its not the greatest state for actually shooting your guns. Western states have BLM land you can fuck around on(thats where a lot of guntubers shoot videos), but eastern states can be tricky if you don't live near a large, open range or know someone with a big plot of land. Assuming you can't buy a plot of land to shoot on, make sure there's a range within a reasonable distance, preferably one that allows you to do drills and shoot more than one round every few seconds. If the ranges near your house are restrictive you should prioritize attending classes that let you move around and shoot fast in a safe environment. Chat up people at the local range/local gun store and ask where they like to shoot.
 
Depleted Uranium is where it's really at :smug:
If you are not raiding the armories of the local tank division for Sabot rounds to repurpose as bullets, are you truly protected from thugs? Me thinks not, pissant.

Seriously, I don't get Null's obsession with armor penetration, tho. 5.7 pistol and now Tungsten? Perhaps he knows something we don't and there's a Troon Juggernaut- Troonggernaut, jerry-rigging plates to assault his future home.
troon jugernaut.png
 
If you are not raiding the armories of the local tank division for Sabot rounds to repurpose as bullets, are you truly protected from thugs? Me thinks not, pissant.

Seriously, I don't get Null's obsession with armor penetration, tho. 5.7 pistol and now Tungsten? Perhaps he knows something we don't and there's a Troon Juggernaut- Troonggernaut, jerry-rigging plates to assault his future home.
View attachment 6076773
Someone should do KWF/Null edit of this John WIck scene at this point :story:

 
If Null is still reading past all the spergouts, I have another suggestion. Make sure you can actually shoot/train near wherever you decide to live. Knowing people who live in Florida, its not the greatest state for actually shooting your guns. Western states have BLM land you can fuck around on(thats where a lot of guntubers shoot videos), but eastern states can be tricky if you don't live near a large, open range or know someone with a big plot of land. Assuming you can't buy a plot of land to shoot on, make sure there's a range within a reasonable distance, preferably one that allows you to do drills and shoot more than one round every few seconds. If the ranges near your house are restrictive you should prioritize attending classes that let you move around and shoot fast in a safe environment. Chat up people at the local range/local gun store and ask where they like to shoot.
To add to this good advice, competitions are a decent way to simulate the hotdog fingers effect under pressure.
 
To add to this good advice, competitions are a decent way to simulate the hotdog fingers effect under pressure.
Agreed. Competitions and a good RO yelling at you to put you under stress is a great way to learn to muscle your way through it.
Adrenaline is a hell of a thing. First, your vision narrows and sharpens and your white balance gets all fucked up, you get a tunnel vision ring of black around the outside. Your higher thought all but disappears. You go numb, and you probably couldn't spell your name if someone asked. Your arms and legs and especially finer movements like fingers turn into foreign lead weights. It's almost like you are remote controlling your body instead of just moving. But you CAN train the body to do these things for you, it just takes time and actual practice.
I've seen old hunters who've taken a hundred deer see a dream buck, get that adrenaline dump, pull their rifle up, drop it or snag it on their gear or a tree, pick it back up, realize it's on safe, go to shoot, realize that the bolt got knocked out of battery when it dropped, shake and fumble to lock it back, and then realize the deer was gone about 5 seconds ago. And that's with nothing shooting back at them.
It's hard to overstate how foreign your entire body and even your mind become when the haze of hard wired adrenaline dumps into you, especially when there is an active threat in front of you.
Remember, human adrenaline response is made to ESCAPE the threat, not engage. Everything that happens in your body is primed for you to sprint and leap and tumble and dive, nothing finer than that. We've learned to control that so we can stab things with spears, but you can't stop millions of years of evolution that predetermines that you should be running as fast as humanly possible and escaping.
 
If you are not raiding the armories of the local tank division for Sabot rounds to repurpose as bullets, are you truly protected from thugs? Me thinks not, pissant.

Seriously, I don't get Null's obsession with armor penetration, tho. 5.7 pistol and now Tungsten? Perhaps he knows something we don't and there's a Troon Juggernaut- Troonggernaut, jerry-rigging plates to assault his future home.
View attachment 6076773
Know what I think if it got to the point that someone dressed up like they're doing the bank robbery mission from GTA5 is coming for you the best thing to have at your disposal is a fairly good friendship with some of the cops at your local precinct who you could call to give some heads up and vice versa.
 
I got one of those dry-fire laser training "bullets" and its good for teaching you where your muzzle is when the trigger is pulled. I can headshot the little 1/4 scale silhouette target consistently from across the room. At the range I'm not quite as accurate. Also it showed me that the sights on my cz75-sp01 were way off.
 
I wouldn't underestimate the importance of securing doors and windows to give yourself more time. I don't know about enough to put on a plate carrier, but any extra time is good. Solid wood doors rather than hollow core, hardened screws and strike plates, security hinges, high quality locks, bars on windows... some of those things are cheap, some aren't. Nothing will keep anybody out forever, but the more time they have to spend figuring out how to open the door, the more time you have to prepare for entry.

Yep, most residential doors are HILARIOUSLY flimsy.

You've touched on something I don't see brought up enough. I've seen so many YT videos and know so many real life people that prep for Red Dawn, and then forget that their home was built ten years ago, and all their hinges are pot metal, their doors are hollow and crumple if a drunk man leans on it, they've got yellow pine making up their frames and quarter inch drywall making up their home. A determined crackhead will phase through your door, a determined attacker will destroy your house in moments.
Solid wood, solid metal, solid anchored connections for all these things. 5 more seconds for them to be in the room with you is twice as much as you should need to chamber a round and hunker. I never take for granted that our home is ancient, and is mostly oak, maple, cedar, concrete, brick, etc....

Yep, most people forget about hardening homes

Makes me miss the old country. It was all concrete, bricks, steel doors, and some places had a safe room or an underground bunker with a blast door. Pretty cozy.

Speaking of reinforcing doors and doorframes, people shouldn't forget that most walls are also paper thin. Sometimes it may be easier to go through a wall than through the door.

Oh yeah and best thing one can do to improve their security is to make friends in the community, know the neighbors. No amount of expensive gear will replace a few extra sets of eyes and hands.

Modern houses are paper, wood and THIN Sheetrock (gypsum).

Old homes, especially European ones, are rock, thick wood, good bricks and lots of it.

I want to get a pistol (or two, eventually). I've never owned one, and they're not very common where I live (Europe), but I want to have it and learn how to use it in case it's ever useful. Would Glock 44 .22 L.R. and later SIG Sauer P226 (9 mm) be okay choices?

Yep, although I'd try ans get hands on with any gun you want before buying it.

With all this talk of what Josh needs gun wise, I think vehicle wise he should get a surplus HMMWV to lug his gear around
View attachment 6074883
*TOW missile launcher not included

Please don't. They're unreliable as fuck, stupidly inefficient and enormous "look at me" mobiles.

They are in Florida, I just checked. Fuck yeah, we can make the battle truck happen

Get a Tacoma or 4Runner. Or any 4x4 body on frame vehicle.



Agreed. Competitions and a good RO yelling at you to put you under stress is a great way to learn to muscle your way through it.
Adrenaline is a hell of a thing. First, your vision narrows and sharpens and your white balance gets all fucked up, you get a tunnel vision ring of black around the outside. Your higher thought all but disappears. You go numb, and you probably couldn't spell your name if someone asked. Your arms and legs and especially finer movements like fingers turn into foreign lead weights. It's almost like you are remote controlling your body instead of just moving. But you CAN train the body to do these things for you, it just takes time and actual practice.
I've seen old hunters who've taken a hundred deer see a dream buck, get that adrenaline dump, pull their rifle up, drop it or snag it on their gear or a tree, pick it back up, realize it's on safe, go to shoot, realize that the bolt got knocked out of battery when it dropped, shake and fumble to lock it back, and then realize the deer was gone about 5 seconds ago. And that's with nothing shooting back at them.
It's hard to overstate how foreign your entire body and even your mind become when the haze of hard wired adrenaline dumps into you, especially when there is an active threat in front of you.
Remember, human adrenaline response is made to ESCAPE the threat, not engage. Everything that happens in your body is primed for you to sprint and leap and tumble and dive, nothing finer than that. We've learned to control that so we can stab things with spears, but you can't stop millions of years of evolution that predetermines that you should be running as fast as humanly possible and escaping.

Best training would literally be a RO yelling at you then pushing you out of a skydiving plane, you parachute into a course and then immediately start shooting.

That would get you pretty close to how keyed up you'd be to being under fire.
 
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