Moral responsibility when a friend troons out

[Slowboat to China]

Thanks again, everyone. I've been trying to hang back, be supportive of her happiness but not encouraging her to do anything drastic, etc. She's talking happily about getting a hysterectomy this year, and while I'm not one of those "If you get your uterus pulled out/don't have kids YOU'RE NOT A REAL WOMAN" types, the idea of getting major surgery so soon in the process makes me a little more worried. I've been (gently) pushing for professional diagnosis. Hopefully the surgery is just pie-in-the-sky talk.

Obviously, I can't run her life But it's nice to have you awful, trans-doxing, life-ruining shitlords to remind me of that.

Tell her to go to a mental health professional to get an actual diagnosis. Self-diagnosing mental health issues is stupid, beyond not being a professional and self-serving bias, if you have actual mental health issues then by definition your judgement can't be trusted to diagnose them.

She says she's been diagnosed by her GP, which I'm skeptical of. Is that even a thing ordinary medical doctors do? I've been trying to read up on the procedures and standards of care, but I admit I get a little lost in all of it. Generally, with trans friends my response is "Okay, you're trans." This is the first time I've felt any worry about the transition, given my knowledge of my friend's previous life and behaviors.

 

[Yandere Science]

She says she's been diagnosed by her GP, which I'm skeptical of. Is that even a thing ordinary medical doctors do?

If by "GP" you mean "General Practitioner" then no, no they can't. You need a psychologist or psychiatrist to diagnose you, in order to rule out the issue being caused some other condition. What a GP could do is identify it as a possibility and recommend a specialist, like they do with any other medical condition requiring specialist care.

 

[AnOminous]

She says she's been diagnosed by her GP, which I'm skeptical of. Is that even a thing ordinary medical doctors do?

Generally, medical doctors can, but it's not best practice in the least. Doctors can do what doctors can do. Still, you're not going to get brain surgery from the dude you go to for your sniffles. And doctors are not supposed to act outside of their field of competence.

Unless she's been actually referred to a specialist of some sort with experience in the field in question, this just sounds like bullshit to me, and like the GP simply didn't rule out gender dysphoria.

Nutjob troons, as we've seen on numerous threads here, usually take that as the doctor completely agreeing with them and giving them the diagnosis they wanted. A smart doctor in this situation puts it down in their notes that they gave a non-committal answer to a potentially deranged patient.

 

[Slowboat to China]

Generally, medical doctors can, but it's not best practice in the least. Doctors can do what doctors can do. Still, you're not going to get brain surgery from the dude you go to for your sniffles. And doctors are not supposed to act outside of their field of competence.

She's referring to her PCP, which I understand as Primary Care Provider. And she's only been on T for a month and is already planning her hysterectomy. If this IS trooning out and not just a sudden case of 25+ years of gender dysphoria coming to a head at once, I'm afraid she's about to do something really drastic.

Shit, this is all coming on a lot faster than I thought. Even Nady Stewart wasn't planning surgical intervention after only a month on testosterone.

 

[Wallace]

Since the OP makes it sound like she has a lot of comorbidities, I would not trust a PCP to diagnose them with gender dysphoria, especially in light of the many identity issues she has. I'd agree and say it's a way of coping with trauma. This is something that happens fairly often; when people have feelings that they can't express, they release them in different ways. One way is by having a surrogate or alter ego express that feeling, and give some emotional distance.

 

[Sure Thing Idiot]

I'm not a shrink but I think anyone who makes a rash, life-altering decision out of the clear blue sky with no prior indication of doing it probably isn't mentally or emotionally stable to be making that kind of decision. You don't owe a person like that anything but if you care you can confront it for what it might possibly be - craziness. Like people don't just hop out of their beds one morning before work and decide they're gonna get a tattoo. Yea that's a poor example but the sentiment remains, especially for something so small and at least reversible compared to something so hugely visible and dedicated, like changing your gender. A stable person I believe at least puts some thought into a life-altering decision, and then challenges it, questions the positive and negative, like getting a tattoo or quitting your job, before doing it.

At the end of the day you can't choose anything for anyone or even help them truly. You can speak out about the suddenness and challenge why this person feels doing this is beneficial, but you can't decide what they do. If you care about this person and consider them a friend I'd suggest speaking to them in a non-aggressive way, confront them with your perspective and suggest they engage in some type of legwork. Like if you're actually gonna be a man, or whatever, and this isn't suppressed crisis-related bullshit, have you educated yourself on the side effects of hormones and getting a hysterectomy or surgery. Have you thought about how your life with change beyond surface level - socially, hormonally, romantically, professionally, etc. Essentially you have no solution. In my opinion your friend sounds confused and a little manic, but again, I'm not a head doctor.

 

[Good Father]

She's referring to her PCP, which I understand as Primary Care Provider. And she's only been on T for a month and is already planning her hysterectomy. If this IS trooning out and not just a sudden case of 25+ years of gender dysphoria coming to a head at once, I'm afraid she's about to do something really drastic.

Shit, this is all coming on a lot faster than I thought. Even Nady Stewart wasn't planning surgical intervention after only a month on testosterone.

Shit sucks. Just remember that you didn't make this happen, faggy Japanese cartoons were around for decades without the trannymania. That's a new thing in the last year, a product of incessant advertisement of how new and amazing and progressive these cutting-edge gender warriors are, coupled with trannie-cult love bombing and an environment that permits would-be trannies to coerce those around them into supporting them with accusations of transphobia.

Take a stand and lovingly, kindly, warn her as hard as you fucking can that the outcomes for trannies are bad and she has tremendous potential to live a happy life as a woman, even if it doesn't seem like it today. Find some stories of women who transitioned and de-transitioned, how it fucked up their voice, how they suffered organ damage from the hormones, how their trans communities rejected them when they started doubting, and pass them on to her. Point out that she's had real troubles in her life, real grief, and that changing genders might seem like it will fix everything but that it's a terrible idea to gamble with irreversible surgery.

Also, see if you can find out the names of whoever does the cutting and publicize them. Fucking bonesaw profiteers.

 

[Slowboat to China]

I'm not a shrink but I think anyone who makes a rash, life-altering decision out of the clear blue sky with no prior indication of doing it probably isn't mentally or emotionally stable to be making that kind of decision. You don't owe a person like that anything but if you care you can confront it for what it might possibly be - craziness. Like people don't just hop out of their beds one morning before work and decide they're gonna get a tattoo. Yea that's a poor example but the sentiment remains, especially for something so small and at least reversible compared to something so hugely visible and dedicated, like changing your gender. A stable person I believe at least puts some thought into a life-altering decision, and then challenges it, questions the positive and negative, like getting a tattoo or quitting your job, before doing it.

Well, she tells me it's been bubbling up underneath for a while. Apparently she had lesbian tendencies in high school (including a crush on yours truly. Awkward), so that may play into it. But OTOH, she recently acquired a transman boyfriend, so I can't help wonder ...

Shit sucks. Just remember that you didn't make this happen, faggy Japanese cartoons were around for decades without the trannymania. That's a new thing in the last year, a product of incessant advertisement of how new and amazing and progressive these cutting-edge gender warriors are, coupled with trannie-cult love bombing and an environment that permits would-be trannies to coerce those around them into supporting them with accusations of transphobia.

Take a stand and lovingly, kindly, warn her as hard as you fucking can that the outcomes for trannies are bad and she has tremendous potential to live a happy life as a woman, even if it doesn't seem like it today. Find some stories of women who transitioned and de-transitioned, how it fucked up their voice, how they suffered organ damage from the hormones, how their trans communities rejected them when they started doubting, and pass them on to her. Point out that she's had real troubles in her life, real grief, and that changing genders might seem like it will fix everything but that it's a terrible idea to gamble with irreversible surgery.

Also, see if you can find out the names of whoever does the cutting and publicize them. Fucking bonesaw profiteers.

I'm doing my best right now. It's a delicate business. But she knows I'm worried about her and want her to be safe, so at least there's no "fuck you transphobe" shutdown yet.

 

[Medicated]

so at least there's no "fuck you transphobe" shutdown yet.

Don't worry, it will come. It's like watching a train crash at 10% speed playback.

 

[melty]

I'm going to agree with @The Fool on this. And I wonder why are you friends with this person? Do they really bring that many positive qualities to your life? They seem like a constant trainwreck. I know we're only seeing part of the story but there are so many red flags I find it hard to wrap my head around.
I have found in my life that it is very easy to friend emotionally needy people, if you choose. You can easily feel very close to them because they constantly tell you lots of very personal problems. Maybe they don't have any other friends and you feel bad for them. Nobody listens to them. People hurt them for no reason, and you want to comfort them. After awhile I realize the problems they cause aren't new, they aren't going through a rough patch, the problems are constant because THEY are the problem. And I never seem to enjoy myself around them, despite having some good moments here and there. When it's clear it's a constant trend I don't really want that persons negativity in my life any more.
That's my take. Maybe I'm not a good friend and run too fast from negativity. What does the rest of this persons life and relationships look like? Does it seem to be a constant dumpster fire? Are they quick to put people on the chopping block when they don't agree with them?
I'm making many assumptions and may not be a very good friend myself so take what you will, but that's my $.02

 

[heathercho]

Sorry if this is in the wrong subforum, but I wasn't sure where else to put it.

The TL;DR is that a dear friend of mine, a woman my age, is transitioning into a man. Unfortunately, she has all the hallmarks of a transtrender a la Milo Stewart: yaoi boi fetishization, no stated dysphoria, no formal diagnosis, a prior record of adopting and dropping dramatic identities, etcetera. Given that the pair of us met in a "special school," and if even a quarter of the life story she told me is true then her childhood was one long uninterrupted rape, I could believe it's a desire to escape from trauma--but I'm concerned about her future. She's already on testosterone, and if she doesn't have dysphoria now, she could well be heading towards it.

I've tried to talk to her and suggest that maybe she's just gender-nonconforming (part of her argument for her trans status rests on the idea that she doesn't fit female stereotypes), but she's convinced she's genuinely trans. I don't want to be labeled a "hater" or cut off from her, and of course I can't know what's going on inside her head, so I'm keeping my peace for now. But I'm worried about her.

Furthermore, I may bear some responsibility for this. This is going to sound incredibly spergy, but I introduced her to anime back in high school. She latched onto the whole pretty-boy idea and I indulged it with the usual teen girl stupid text roleplay. Unfortunately, she never let go of it. If her yaoi boi obsession turns into medical transition, I'm partially responsible for what happens to her.

What should I do, kiwis? Should I hold my peace? Speak up? Is this none of my goddamn business and I should STFU and stop moralfagging? How do you handle it when a friend may be making a dangerous life choice?

1)
Let her get her tubes tied. If she's that swayed by society's newest brainwashing whim, you don't want her to breed. I know she's your "friend" and all, but she can be a friend that suffers the consequences of her mental instability.

2)
Tell her to see a shrink first. Tell her she can't undo it, because you will forever refer to her as a man, if she transitions and even if she transitions back, she can never undo it. Also, she will never be a "yaoi boy" because she's not a boy and if a gay guy wanted to fuck a girl, they would. But they don't. They like penis.

I saw on a Japanese talk show once, when talking about Yaoi shit, that a lot of the women who are in to it, aren't attracted to gay men, but they want men who are "soft" ; enjoy displaying affection towards other men. It "means" they will also be a good father and kind to you.
Others were attracted to the idea of "weak" men (weak being visually affectionate towards the same sex), as a power thing and wanted to be the (female) dominant one in the relationship.

But western society has dicked all that up with this trans shit, so "I like X" now always has to mean "I'm Trans".

 

[DatBepisTho]

I get friends being cringy doofuses and wanting to moralfag over it, but I want to know-
Is this friend an emotional black hole that sucks the life out of you when you try to interact with them; you do carry out all the pleasantries of friendship while they're a moody little shit for no reason and bite your head off when you inevitably crush the eggshells you're treading on or express concerns?

-If not, you might be able to air your concerns like a normal person and not be reee'd at. If she/he still goes on with it I guess all you can do is keep in touch and hope for the best or cut them out of your life when they start tardraging about every little thing.

 

[Black Waltz]

Seriously, there's nothing I can say that hasn't been said before. Just continue to be a supportive and caring friend to her, and if she cuts you out of her life anyway, well, you've done everything you could possibly do.

 

[sperginity]

Ask her exactly what it is about her that makes her identify as a man, and then ask why women can't be/do/feel whatever the answer is.

Also, get a copy of the book Fuck Feelings. You have to limit your responsibility for others in order to be happy and functional. It's not your problem when other people do stupid shot. It's sad, but you're never at fault.

 

[Arse Biscuit]

Sorry if this is in the wrong subforum, but I wasn't sure where else to put it.

The TL;DR is that a dear friend of mine, a woman my age, is transitioning into a man. Unfortunately, she has all the hallmarks of a transtrender a la Milo Stewart: yaoi boi fetishization, no stated dysphoria, no formal diagnosis, a prior record of adopting and dropping dramatic identities, etcetera. Given that the pair of us met in a "special school," and if even a quarter of the life story she told me is true then her childhood was one long uninterrupted rape, I could believe it's a desire to escape from trauma--but I'm concerned about her future. She's already on testosterone, and if she doesn't have dysphoria now, she could well be heading towards it.

I've tried to talk to her and suggest that maybe she's just gender-nonconforming (part of her argument for her trans status rests on the idea that she doesn't fit female stereotypes), but she's convinced she's genuinely trans. I don't want to be labeled a "hater" or cut off from her, and of course I can't know what's going on inside her head, so I'm keeping my peace for now. But I'm worried about her.

Furthermore, I may bear some responsibility for this. This is going to sound incredibly spergy, but I introduced her to anime back in high school. She latched onto the whole pretty-boy idea and I indulged it with the usual teen girl stupid text roleplay. Unfortunately, she never let go of it. If her yaoi boi obsession turns into medical transition, I'm partially responsible for what happens to her.

What should I do, kiwis? Should I hold my peace? Speak up? Is this none of my goddamn business and I should STFU and stop moralfagging? How do you handle it when a friend may be making a dangerous life choice?

There's no helping the situation. None whatsoever. Your friend has a head full of bad signal that will last for years, because she has painted herself into a corner and now cannot back off without admitting how silly she is being. And the likelihood of her having the intestinal fortitude to do that is somewhere between "zero" and "potato". If she HAD that fortitude, she would have found an individual approach to her life, instead of buying into the tumblrverse.

So I'd advocate a hands-off policy, and just watch the whole burning mess careen down the staircase.

 

[The Demon]

best of luck i guess

 

[DangerousGas]

Right. You're talking about GPs here, so I'm guessing that you/your friend are based in the UK or Ireland. In which case, no GP that wants to avoid being struck off is gonna go 'yup, you're trans, let's lose those internal organs now'. I've got a couple of friends who have transitioned over here, and it takes more time than this person believes. It also requires psychological assessments (multiple visits) as well as a surprisingly long regimen of therapy.

Your friend sounds like she's either bullshitting or being fed misinformation by an unreliable source. Is her OH of the egghunting inclination, by any chance? Because that's the vibe I'm getting.

No GP will just dish out a referral for a hysterectomy without viable medical justification either, so I'd be of a mind to just nod and smile and let her delusions roll on. If anything, I'm more concerned about the sudden availability of testosterone injections - wither they're not legit, of you've been unaware of this transition for a lot longer than you have been aware of it.

One of the criticisms people tend to have when it comes to transitioning on the NHS is how long it takes to do (ie years), so this high-speed 'give them the hormones and hand me my scalpel' approach sounds largely like fantasy to me.

 

[gumboman]

I often see men who troon out do so because they have lost control over their life due to circumstances.
it fucks up their brain stew.

a friend when betrayed after 8 year relationship thought he was gay , 1 year later , gets a new gf and tells me holy shit was he retarded that time.

help a friend in getting control over his life.

don't know about femtroons.

 

[AfghanBlue]

@Slowboat to China
So then, how did this end up playing out?

 

[Slowboat to China]

@Slowboat to China
So then, how did this end up playing out?

She had a mastectomy, but not (to my knowledge) a hysterectomy. We still talk sometimes. I'm staying the course of "be a friendly voice of sanity/concern."