Diseased Neo-Pagans / Witches on the Internet / Witchblr - SMT IRL, but with fatties

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Is there any reliable info on how many of those hardcore Santa Muerete followers there are? I'm aware of official numbers, but to me wide majority of those people seem like regular people who are just looking for alternatives to Catholocism.

No, sadly, I only know of the official figures, which are sketchy to begin with. Based off of the few known cases of human sacrifice being offered all being traced to areas with heavy cartel presence or a theorized serial killer hunting the area, I'd bet 99.9% of the worshippers who actually hurt anyone fall under one of those two categories. Those giving animal sacrifice or auto-sacrifice are probably more numerous and more ordinary people -- I can think of a number of documented cases of animal sacrifice and Tigre boxing being recorded in the last 20 years among rural villages in northern and central Mexico. Neither of those were for Santa Muerte (the former was for local mountain deities, the latter is a modernized "sport" with heavy religious undertones associated with Tlaloc the rain god, and though none of the articles mentioned it, there are features of the symbology that are identical to symbology in certain sacrifices in antiquity that were performed for Xipe Totec, the god of spring and vegetation), but if both of those kinds of things are still happening for other gods, I'd infer it's not off the menu for Muerte, for some devotees.

I agree with your view that the vast majority of Muerte's followers are just ordinary people, though. The cartel psychos and criminals tend to draw a lot of attention, but Muerte's generally viewed as a benevolent, merciful goddess (despite her frightening appearance) who's willing to try to help the very poorest and weakest of people, those forgotten or discarded by the rest of society. A lot of those who turn to her are people who are utterly desperate and feel like they have nowhere else to turn.

Part of this is her symbology is a syncretism from European Christian folklore of Death as the one who ultimately comes to take everyone, powerful and weak alike (Ever listen to the folk song "O Death?" or "Death And The Lady" Same energy.) and Precolumbian beliefs about the King and Queen of the Dead, Mictlantecuhtli and Mictlancihuatl. Warriors who died in battle and women who died in childbirth went to the paradaisical House of the Sun. Those struck by lightning or drowned would go to Tlalocan, the land of eternal springtime and realm of Tlaloc. Babies who died before eating solid food would return to the primordial creator gods, Ometeotl and Omecihuatl, waiting to be sent back for another shot at life. Virtually everyone else, however, would go to Mictlan, the domain of the Lord and Lady of Death. They welcomed anyone and everyone, kings and orphans alike, and your former status only carried so much weight under their rule -- being rich and powerful made your trip to their throne easier as you had more grave goods to bring with to help you on the way, but once in their court, the deceased would give up the relics of their former life, presumably now level with the rest of the mass of the common dead. But, humble as it is, it's still a home, and one given by the King and Queen of Death when none of the other gods would offer one. And a little like Hades and Persephone, they allow their "guests" periodic trips to the world of the living to visit their beloved families.



So if you check #Anahuac on TikTok, it's all school stuff (not flooded like reddit, apparently), but if you check things like #tlaloc and #mictlantecuhtli...

<angry nerd noises> I'm going to rip each one of these apart. (No one bitch at me about the translation bits, my Spanish sucks and all I care about is giving the gist.)

"Tlaloc eats the kids/something about Tezcatlipoca and drinks the translator failed on/Quetzalcoatl asks for food, chocolate, and basically being a hippie/Hugs!"

Children were indeed sacrificed to Tlaloc way back when, and it was a desperation offering -- children were the most precious thing the people could give, and their small stature was a symbolic analogue to Tlaloc's army of rain spirits who served him, the Tlaloque (they were like mini-mes of the god). This was the ceremony that was performed when there was a drought so bad it threatened to destroy an area with famine.

Can't understand the bit about Tezcatlipoca but I'm sure it's retarded and would piss me off.

Quetzalcoatl... he was the farthest thing from a hippie. He was the god of the priesthood and proper ceremonial procedure. His seminary/priestly school (calmecac) was one of the toughest and most selective. It was also 100% male. Unlike some of the other gods, he had no female religious officers (this is specially remarked on in the Florentine Codex). He was also, like his brother Tezcatlipoca, a god of fate, particularly divinely-ordained death and misfortune, kind of like the Greek goddess Nemesis but even less predictable.


"I offered Tlaloc my menstrual blood/it started raining quick!"

There is literally not a single example of offering menstrual blood in any codex I have ever read, or any colonial-era source. None. Not one. Not even as a form of prohibited black magic, or as an offering to the goddess of sin/deviance/literal shit and trash, Tlazolteotl. (However, as she has dominion over all this disgusting stuff, she can also cleanse you of it, if you do penance. The Aztecs had a form of confession -- and it was strict. Some sources seem to say it was a thing you could do once ever in your life.) Furthermore, all legitimate blood offerings were of freshly-drawn blood, symbolically full of vibrant life, and blood offerings associated with rain usually emphasized free flowing, spattering, dripping blood (blood when it's most like falling, flowing rain). Based on those details, I feel safe in inferring that clotted, nasty menstrual blood would be viewed as dead, lifeless blood, and body waste, and that this offering would've been seen as sacriligeous. The menstrual blood fetish so many of these idiots have is fucking tiresome.


"I'm not afraid of the gods of Mexico/Okay, but do you know Mictlantecuhtli?/Ah yeah, in drawings/Oh no <cue scurreh pictures>"

Wat. No.


<in chibi animu chipmunk voice> "Please stop sending rain (Tlaloc), I don't have clean panties!/Tlaloc: Hehe/Hehe?! I flooded!!"

Gross. This is also the part where I mention that, even by Aztec mythological standards, Tlaloc had a nasty, hair-trigger temper and basically no sense of humor. In one of his myths, he plays a ballgame against an arrogant king and loses. He keeps his word and hands over the wager of profound riches he put up -- and the king flips his shit. He expected gold, silver, jewels, and precious quetzal feathers. What Tlaloc gave him was fruit, vegetables, and all sorts of crops. Tlaloc was so insulted he told the king to fuck off and struck the kingdom with a total drought ("You don't want my riches? Fine, have it your way!") until the king made some pretty extreme sacrifices and practically got down on his belly and begged for forgiveness. Not a good idea to fuck with the storm god with a jaguar's face (and general personality).


"Do you see the moon growing?/Yes I see, it's growing for her/Coyolxauhqui <shitty fantasy drawings of the moon goddess>"

Don't get the point of making this but at least it's not actively offensive in the context of supposedly having been made by a devotee.
 
The idea of boxing for Tlaloc jiggered something loose in my brain: didn't the Aztec/Mezika sacrifice to Tlaloc by beating the offering to death? Am I remembering that right?

Also, if a propitiant really felt the need to offer up her menses to a rain god, wouldn't Chalchiuhtlitcue be a better choice since she also covers childbirth? Sort of a "Sorry I'm not pregnant, you can have this back" sort of gesture? I don't know, I'm a little sleep deprived.
 



Help, I don't speak Kuruminha.


This is adorable, though:


@SCSI -
something about Tezcatlipoca and drinks the translator failed on
It's "Tezcatlipoca pushing drunks off a/the cliff"

Quetzalcoatl asks for food, chocolate, and basically being a hippie/Hugs!"
The hugs part is even more cringe. It's a parody of "Hugs, not drugs" but the rhyme only works in Spanish so in English it's "Hugs, not gunshots/violence" which is just beyond stupid.

"Do you see the moon growing?/Yes I see, it's growing for her/Coyolxauhqui <shitty fantasy drawings of the moon goddess>"
Alternative translation:
"Have you seen the moon? It looks incred- What are you staring at?"
"At her"
<shitty drawings implying that's how he sees the moon>
 
The idea of boxing for Tlaloc jiggered something loose in my brain: didn't the Aztec/Mezika sacrifice to Tlaloc by beating the offering to death? Am I remembering that right?

Also, if a propitiant really felt the need to offer up her menses to a rain god, wouldn't Chalchiuhtlitcue be a better choice since she also covers childbirth? Sort of a "Sorry I'm not pregnant, you can have this back" sort of gesture? I don't know, I'm a little sleep deprived.

Not exactly, I can't find any references to bludgeoning sacrificial victims in a quick scan through the most likely volumes of the Florentine Codex (but certain kinds of criminals had their skulls crushed or were beaten fatally, adulterers for one). But... you're also not far off...

Some of Tlaloc's offerings were killed in ceremonial gladiatorial combat, as were some of Xipe Totec's. (I'd remembered Xipe getting this type of sacrifice, but had forgotten Tlaloc received it as well.) This was one of two forms of the "striping" class of sacrifices (the other type of "striping" saw the attackers using bows and arrows, rather than melee weaponry, this was done for Xipe Totec and I think Mixcoatl, the god of the hunt, as well). In these, the victim (always a captive warrior) was given a faux macuahuitl sword, but instead of flint or obsidian blades lining the edges, it was only feathers, and the wooden "paddle" part of it was lightweight pine, instead of a heavier wood. The priests/warriors who were going to kill the victim, though had swords that were quite real. The victim was also tethered to a large, disc-shaped stone, so he could only maneuver in a limited arena of sorts. He would then have to duel his captors, one vs. a team, and they'd slowly wear him down like a pack of wolves harrying an elk, slashing at his limbs and body until he finally collapsed. This sacrifice was done for Tlaloc in the month called Atl Caualo (alternatively named Quauitl Eua), and for Xipe Totec in the month Tlacaxipehualiztli. Striping is pretty firmly linked to these two gods of rain, spring, and vegetation as the way the blood would run down from the wounds and spatter the ground was representative of the storms during the rainy season . (Related, that's why Tlaloc has jaguar jaws -- the big cat's snarls and roars were reminiscent of thunder. Cave mouths in the pictographic codices are also drawn like jaguar mouths -- rain and storms were thought to be stored inside mountains (hence the clouds and mist clinging to the peaks), and burst out through cave openings. You could also reach Tlaloc's kingdom while still alive if you found the right cave... if you dared to try the journey and gamble on his reaction to a mortal turning up on his doorstep...)

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As a side note, the month Atl Caualo was also when the "routine" child sacrifices for Tlaloc were done. I'd skipped over the fact that some localities did do this one annually to some degree, when I'd mentioned in my earlier post the "oh shit killer drought"-motivated incidents. Sorry about that, it's been a few years since I've read about that ceremony specifically, it doesn't come up too much in the historical documents, and the details about how exactly it went are scattered across multiple places and sometimes contradictory. (I kind of get the impression that the people Sahagun interviewed about ceremonies were a liiiiittle uncomfortable talking about the details of that particular ritual -- a lot of other topics are quite blunt and matter of fact in describing what happened and how the people died, but not so much that one. I imagine that, for a parent, no matter how devoutly you believe the universe needs sacrifices to function, it's got to be a hard pill to swallow when the local priesthood points at your child as the one who's going to be sent up the mountain to his or her death.)

And I'd agree that, if someone really wanted to try offering menses to a water god, that Chalchuitlicue, She of the Jade Skirt, would be the better choice, if anything by virtue of she's a female deity, and the Aztecs were pretty consistent with other ancient cultures in mostly linking childbirth with goddesses. Plus she's the goddess of rivers, oceans, and lakes, flowing bodies of water, and, I don't know if the Aztecs would've agreed, but if I had to analogize menstruation with water, I'd classify it as closer to a stream of water than showers of rain, symbolically.

While I'm having fun sperging about childbirth and the Aztecs, the goddess Teteo Innan, the primary patron of childbirth and who also was associated with female physicians and midwives, would also be pretty logical, or the primordial creator goddess, Omecihuatl ("Two-Lady", or more poetically, "The Lady of Duality"). The latter would also work for your suggestion of it in connection with failing to get pregnant, since Omecihuatl is the goddess who gets invoked when dealing with stillbirths or children who die before they eat solid food. She's credited as the god who sends the soul down for birth, and the funeral sends the soul back to her to care for while she waits for another pregnancy to send the kid back for another try at life. (Why the hangup on eating solid food as the cutoff for what happens to the kid? It's because the first time you eat food from the earth, you start racking up a debt to the gods, especially the earth gods, and that debt creates an obligation to offer sacrifices, until the day you finally die and they get to take payment by reclaiming your body (and soul, if no other deity calls dibs first). This is why one of the names for sacrifice, especially autosacrifice, translates to "paying the debt we owe". "No free lunch" on a cosmic scale.)

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Help, I don't speak Kuruminha.
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This is adorable, though:


@SCSI -

It's "Tezcatlipoca pushing drunks off a/the cliff"


The hugs part is even more cringe. It's a parody of "Hugs, not drugs" but the rhyme only works in Spanish so in English it's "Hugs, not gunshots/violence" which is just beyond stupid.


Alternative translation:
"Have you seen the moon? It looks incred- What are you staring at?"
"At her"
<shitty drawings implying that's how he sees the moon>

Sweet, thanks for the better translations, they're both informative and enraging. :-D And you're gonna give me an anger seizure posting these, because I can't not watch them and then go "WTF?! No!" the whole time. I'm amazed they left out the lewd metaphors with the story about Xochiquetzal... :gunt: (For those who haven't read the folktale, it explains how flowers were created by Xochiquetzal, the goddess of flowers and one of the main patrons of the arts. One of the other gods, usually Tezcatlipoca but some variants have it be Quetzalcoatl instead, transforms into a bat and bites off a piece of her ladybits while she's sleeping, and it apparently smells sweet like flowers and becomes a blossom once detached. Oh my...)

Last video is :heart-full:, and the dancer has an awesome set of ayoyotes. It's incredible how going from two to three to four rows cranks up the volume they can kick out almost exponentially. Also, I feel good about myself, I was thinking as I was watching "that sounds like one of Tezcatlipoca's rhythms and then I saw the captions. You can hear the same drumbeat in Xavier Yxayotl's song for Tezcatlipoca starting at 2:21 below.

 
inb4 "Conservative" neopagans add the Founding Fathers and Henry Ford to a pantheon


thank you my friend are correct path act calm honor ancestor
157 years too late bro

The Apotheosis of Washington is the fresco painted by Greek-Italian artist Constantino Brumidi in 1865 and visible through the oculus of the dome in the rotunda of the United States Capitol Building.
The Apotheosis of Washington depicts George Washington sitting amongst the heavens in an exalted manner, or in literary terms, ascending and becoming a god

 
Get these fucking mexilarper gringos outta here, if you really want to please the gods you gotta give them some fresh hearts straight out of a prisoner of war's chest. None of that 1$ candle shit.
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Mexican religion is probably the most horrifying to me. They didn't just killed PoWs, they killed their own. Their ritual to bless them with rain involved torturing and mutilating children in the most painful way possible, because they thought they tears would be carried up into the sky and become rain.
 
Mexican religion is probably the most horrifying to me. They didn't just killed PoWs, they killed their own. Their ritual to bless them with rain involved torturing and mutilating children in the most painful way possible, because they thought they tears would be carried up into the sky and become rain.
One of my favorite bits of Mexican history is only seen when you cross-reference Native American history as well.
Long story short, modern borders didn't exist, and the Rio Grande isn't a magic barrier, so I posit to you a question: If multiple groups of people in one area all have stories about another group of traveling murderous assholes who they had to run off, and another group of people has an origin story about how they were "forced" to wander around for a long time before finding a homeland (uwu), then is there perhaps maybe a chance these stories are related?
 
One of my favorite bits of Mexican history is only seen when you cross-reference Native American history as well.
Long story short, modern borders didn't exist, and the Rio Grande isn't a magic barrier, so I posit to you a question: If multiple groups of people in one area all have stories about another group of traveling murderous assholes who they had to run off, and another group of people has an origin story about how they were "forced" to wander around for a long time before finding a homeland (uwu), then is there perhaps maybe a chance these stories are related?
Your theory is that the native american tribes were marauders who the aztecs had to shove off? Or the reverse?
 
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Mexican religion is probably the most horrifying to me. They didn't just killed PoWs, they killed their own. Their ritual to bless them with rain involved torturing and mutilating children in the most painful way possible, because they thought they tears would be carried up into the sky and become rain.
That ritual involving torturing children to summon rain was actually so popular it spread as far north as the American Southwest, except that version involves psychologically tormenting children for the power of their tears. MOSTLY psychological torment, they did beat the kids too. It's actually still practiced to this day among the Hopi and some other tribes.
 
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