Nintendo Switch 2 - For the Soytendo consoomers to speculate about the successor to the Switch, recently announced for 2025.

[Soggy Floppa]

I think this is a better argument to make about Nintendo’s direction, but it still doesn’t quite hold up to scrutiny when you look at Nintendo’s output at scale. And for the games that have gone that way, I don’t see it as a negative change. The implementation from game to game doesn’t always work completely, but more choices on how to interact with a game is always good.

Nintendo's perception of the concept means that there is little progression (in the zelda games) as everything is accessible from the start because they deem any restriction on the player as bad. Where as older games made with the idea of emergent gameplay were typically enclosed dungeon crawler games like System Shock, Thief, Deus Ex, Dishonored, where there is still structure and restrictions on the player, but the sandbox gameplay emerges from the games being designed around systems that are able to interact, but the levels were also designed with this in mind. In the Zelda games they kind of did it with the element system in BOTW, but instead of using restriction they just allow you to access everything and any glitch or unintended workaround they just deem as a creative solution instead of something a designer intended. Which yeah I can see the appeal of it, but the entirety of the 3 open air zelda games just boil down to cheesing every challenge with a single mechanic instead of actual creative solutions, and once you become aware of the single solution you have to force yourself to not use it. For me I don't find this kind of design particularly engaging, maybe because I've played the older titles that did emergent gameplay far better.

Can't comment on Donkey Kong but from what I've seen you are able to just go straight to the objectives because the entire level can be destroyed, which to me does not seem appealing as a game when a game can be defined as a series of rules with a lose condition. Maybe I'm out of touch and kids just love this stuff.

 

[Incecticyder]

I said 10 years because it’s the rough time that’s elapsed since BotW’s release. Even zooming into only the last 5 years, the argument that Nintendo is making everything like BotW fails when you examine their overall output. The only game series that tried open world in that time were Pokemon and Mario Kart. Zelda was already open world at that point and Xenoblade X came out over 10 years ago. Am I missing anything else?

Yes, you are missing the fact that Nintendo has the worst fan/hate base in the world. The ones that praise the older stuff, would have been tearing them apart when they came out. There is NO way to get valid feedback.

Nintendo: Here is Game A!
Fans: We hate Game A! Everyone involved in its creation should be killed!
N: Ok, here is Game B! It is nothing like Game A!
F: No, we hate Game B! Everyone involved in its creation should be killed!
N: Ok, here is Game C! It is nothing like Game A or Game B!
F: No, we hate Game C! Everyone involved in its creation should be killed! Why did you not make it more like Game A or Game B? Those were classics!!!! You stopped making good games and have no good devs anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!
N: You know what? Fuck you! We are no longer listening to the fans! In fact, we hate you and will try to milk you! You bled our passion for gaming dry, complained about the taste and asked for a refill! Get the games or shut up! We are no longer nice!!!!!

This has been the Nintendo Cycle: They complain about the new stuff only to praise them to high heaven right around the time the next stuff comes in. This has been going on for a while. "We hate Wind Waker!" "We hate Twilight Princess!" "We love Wind Waker!" We hate Skyward Sword!" "We love Twilight Princess!" "We hate Gen 3!" "Emerald was PEAK!" "We hate Gen 4!" "Platinum and Gen 2 remakes were PEAK!" And so on and so forth.

See what I mean? This has been going on for a while now! Watch how PLZA and MP4 will be classics in a decade or two! God Almighty, if the Nintendo fanbase isn't deserving of everything Nintendo gives them.

 

[Fox Girl Enjoyer]

Nintendo's perception of the concept means that there is little progression (in the zelda games) as everything is accessible from the start because they deem any restriction on the player as bad. Where as older games made with the idea of emergent gameplay were typically enclosed dungeon crawler games like System Shock, Thief, Deus Ex, Dishonored, where there is still structure and restrictions on the player, but the sandbox gameplay emerges from the games being designed around systems that are able to interact, but the levels were also designed with this in mind. In the Zelda games they kind of did it with the element system in BOTW, but instead of using restriction they just allow you to access everything and any glitch or unintended workaround they just deem as a creative solution instead of something a designer intended. Which yeah I can see the appeal of it, but the entirety of the 3 open air zelda games just boil down to cheesing every challenge with a single mechanic instead of actual creative solutions, and once you become aware of the single solution you have to force yourself to not use it. For me I don't find this kind of design particularly engaging, maybe because I've played the older titles that did emergent gameplay far better.

I think Nintendo's kind of reached the limit of that to be honest. Emergent gameplay can kind of work, but people don't just want a tool box. They want a crafted world where the toolbox works in. This was the problem with ToTK really. Who cares if its super indepth and you can make anything if you are just exploring the same area from 2017. Its also why Genshin was able to take the concept and make way more money than Nintendo could ever dream of. Despite what you might think of the game, Miohoy did a good job of crafting a world and you knew you'd get a whole new area to explore that was distinct.

Or take the Souls games. From Software doesn't change the gameplay much because......why the fuck would you? Instead the game has focused on crafting a world with challenges. The player still gets a decent amount of freedom, but people aren't buying the games because the gameplay is completely different. Its only Nintendo that thinks they have to completely change something people like.

You know how some Japanese companies have the "Loud American" on the board who is just suppose to break through the Japanese culture and talk shit. Nintendo needs that, except replace it with a fat Canadian with a triangle that goes RETARD ALERT every time Nintendo talks about emergent gameplay or fucking up something that already worked.

 

[Großmann]

Can't comment on Donkey Kong but from what I've seen you are able to just go straight to the objectives because the entire level can be destroyed, which to me does not seem appealing as a game when a game can be defined as a series of rules with a lose condition.

Bananza isn’t like that. There are optional bananas to find, but the critical path requires you to engage with the level design. Tunneling through terrain only gets you so far before you hit indestructible terrain, hazards, or go out of bounds.

Its only Nintendo that thinks they have to completely change something people like.

I appreciate that about Nintendo though. I already played the old game I enjoy and can go back and play it again. I’d rather see something new instead of a glorified expansion — and many people proved that with the online reception of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom.

 

[Incecticyder]

I appreciate that about Nintendo though. I already played the old game I enjoy and can go back and play it again. I’d rather see something new instead of a glorified expansion — and many people proved that with the online reception of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom.

Nintendo does both. They put the same old stuff that people like but they also try new things from time to time. The problem is that the fanbase has a "Guess what I want tomorrow and make it ahead of time" mood:

Nintendo: Here is more of what you liked!
Fans: I wanted something new! I hate this!
Nintendo: Alright, here is something new and exiting!
Fans: Why mess with a formula that works? I hate this!

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. People do not appreciate the games for what they are and hope that the next is more to their taste. You wanted a game with innovation in gameplay but got something more along of BOTW? Ok, wait for the next one. You got a game without much innovation but solid and familiar gameplay but got something more experimental? Ok, wait for the next one. Enjoy what you got.

 

[LightDragonman1]

I am a huge fan of games with Immersive Sim design philosophy, so for me at least, to see it done in an open-world environment like in BOTW was one of my favorite experiences. However, I do think that in TOTK, while it definitely improved on those mechanics, was weighed down by it basically using mostly the same world.

For me, something taking inspiration from BOTW and TOTK means more than just plopping an open-world into a game. It also means that it allows for the sort of emergent gameplay that occurs naturally in said world. Hence why I don’t think that this so called “BOTW-fication” really describes a lot of Nintendo’s later open-word games.

 

[Chocolate Rain]

Good news is the humbling is probably coming. Bananza sold-in 3.5 million but only sold through 2.6 million, which in the digital age is terrible. Then you have Switch 2 getting clapped by PS5 during Black Friday being outsold 2 to 1 in the US and in some European countries 4 to 1. The post launch high is starting to wear off and it likely wont get better from here. The good news is the next Direct will probably be a banger as Nintendo tries to get people interested in the Switch brand again.

This is some Nintendeen level retardation negating the fact that Bananza is literally the best selling DK title since Returns and that the PS5 was heavily discounted on Black Friday while the Switch 2 wasn't yet it still lost the month of November overall an even got outsold by the fucking NEX peripheral so it only really did well on the day you could get it for a steal. Also Europoors are irrelevant since everything is doing badly over there outside FIFA.

Perhaps you'd like to share what you enjoyed most about it

Let's go around the room and everybody says their favorite thing about Metroid Prime 4

It revealed that a lot of Metroid fans never played Prime 2 and 3 and that they somehow managed to outsperg even Paper Mario fags when the game isn't 1:1 like the first one, which is ironic because every Metroid after Super introduced something that alienated a portion of the fanbase until it gets memory holed into being good down the pipeline (yes even shit like Other M has its defenders). For a franchise that has NEVER sold well or been popular it was weird seeing so many people give their two cents over stuff thats been present for 30 years now be seen as blasphemous all because they needed to pay rent this month especially for a game thats just OK with the great elements and moments that's present in the Prime series thats also bogged down by new features nobody asked for which...again...is like every Metroid title after Super.

 

[Never Scored]

because every Metroid after Super introduced something that alienated a portion of the fanbase until it gets memory holed into being good down the pipeline (yes even shit like Other M has its defenders). For a franchise that has NEVER sold well or been popular it was weird seeing so many people give their two cents over stuff thats been present for 30 years now be seen as blasphemous all because they needed to pay rent this month especially for a game thats just OK with the great elements and moments that's present in the Prime series thats also bogged down by new features nobody asked for which...again...is like every Metroid title after Super.

This may be true of the Prime series specifically, but I have literally never seen any kind of fan pushback on the post Super Metroid 2D games. I was already very active on message boards when Fusion and Zero mission came out. Zero Mission especially was near universally acclaimed. Fans generally liked the Metroid 2 remake. Metroid Dread came out fairly recently and has been highly praised by fans. So I don't think it's fair at all to say fans of the series hate every new game when it comes out.

 

[Chocolate Rain]

Nintendo does both. They put the same old stuff that people like but they also try new things from time to time. The problem is that the fanbase has a "Guess what I want tomorrow and make it ahead of time" mood:

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. People do not appreciate the games for what they are and hope that the next is more to their taste. You wanted a game with innovation in gameplay but got something more along of BOTW? Ok, wait for the next one. You got a game without much innovation but solid and familiar gameplay but got something more experimental? Ok, wait for the next one. Enjoy what you got.

Its amazing how every Nintendo fan is like this and they only really shut up is when the game becomes so successful it gains a new fanbase that makes the old one obsolete but the ones who still remain are without a doubt the most insufferable before BOTW 2D Zelda fags always scoffed at the 3D titles being inferior and after BOTW brought in a slew of new fans those from N64 and GC eras hate it and of course there's the endless butthurt that OG Pokémon fags have endured because the franchise is such a behemoth that'll cater to casuals first and foremost because its what makes the most money inspite of the lack of polish and QoL the games have now and they just have to move on or eat crow like everyone else has.

This may be true of the Prime series specifically, but I have literally never seen any kind of fan pushback on the post Super Metroid 2D games. I was already very active on message boards when Fusion and Zero mission came out. Zero Mission especially was near universally acclaimed. Fans generally liked the Metroid 2 remake. Metroid Dread came out fairly recently and has been highly praised by fans. So I don't think it's fair at all to say fans of the series hate every new game when it comes out.

Fusion had a lot of complaints from Superfags about its linearity, bad weapon upgrades and being too dialogue heavy, Zero Mission was generally well recieved because it was a remake of an NES title but you still had Superfags complaining over the maps and lack of difficulty. People complained about the melee strikes in Samus Returns and being far too easy it also came out after Nintendo DMA striked the fanmade AM2R which soured people on it. Dread had A LOT of complaints about its music, art and once again linearity with the EMMIs being the common criticism towards it. So yeah the discourse over Prime 4 isn't surprising in fact compared to Nintendo's other releases this year that had people foaming at the mouth over inane shit (MKW and PZA) its been generally well recieved by people who actually played it but its definitely the weakest of the Prime series.

 

[Never Scored]

Fusion had a lot of complaints from Superfags about its linearity, bad weapon upgrades and being too dialogue heavy, Zero Mission was generally well recieved because it was a remake of an NES title but you still had Superfags complaining over the maps and lack of difficulty. People complained about the melee strikes in Samus Returns and being far too easy it also came out after Nintendo DMA striked the fanmade AM2R which soured people on it. Dread had A LOT of complaints about its music, art and once again linearity with the EMMIs being the common criticism towards it.

Were there A LOT of complaints about those things, or did you see like 6 guys on 4Chan complain about them?

Are you counting someone saying "It's a bit more linear than I'm used to, but still a great game" as someone "complaining" about linearity?

 

[Soggy Floppa]

Prime 4 is a 6/10 at best

 

[Chocolate Rain]

Were there A LOT of complaints about those things, or did you see like 6 guys on 4Chan complain about them?

Are you counting someone saying "It's a bit more linear than I'm used to, but still a great game" as someone "complaining" about linearity?

If you follow the Metroid community and not just general audiences they are super autistic about level design and weapon implementation i.e. shit that normies dont care for about. Fusion is still well loved (though that can also be due to nostalgia) but these nitpicks aren't out of nowhere or come from a specific section of the community in fact I saw people shitting on it on Twitter recently when discussing Prime 4's linearity and map design. Dread definitely had a lot of criticism though and downplaying the grievances people had with is just revisionism despite it overall being a great game, theres this notion that Dread was this "return to form" for the franchise and it brought in a new audience when in reality it had worse reviews than the Prime trilogy and only sold like 5% more than Prime 1 on the GC 20 years ago.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

You know how some Japanese companies have the "Loud American" on the board who is just suppose to break through the Japanese culture and talk shit. Nintendo needs that, except replace it with a fat Canadian with a triangle that goes RETARD ALERT every time Nintendo talks about emergent gameplay or fucking up something that already worked.

It seems like the natural life cycle of Japanese companies is have some good visionaries making them break new ground, only for the company to coalesce itself into retarded nepobabies on top giving worse and worse product until it either falls apart or gets sued to oblivion once corruption scandals come around.

Sadly Nintendo might very well be too big to fail as far as the Japanese government is concerned.

 

[Never Scored]

If you follow the Metroid community and not just general audiences they are super autistic about level design and weapon implementation i.e. shit that normies dont care for about. Fusion is still well loved (though that can also be due to nostalgia) but these nitpicks aren't out of nowhere or come from a specific section of the community in fact I saw people shitting on it on Twitter recently when discussing Prime 4's linearity and map design. Dread definitely had a lot of criticism though and downplaying the grievances people had with is just revisionism despite it overall being a great game, theres this notion that Dread was this "return to form" for the franchise and it brought in a new audience when in reality it had worse reviews than the Prime trilogy and only sold like 5% more than Prime 1 on the GC 20 years ago.

Ok, well a general audience is shitting on Prime 4, with popular Youtubers pointing out issues with it, not just a very specific autistic group. Totally different situation.

Fusion was extremely critically acclaimed when it came out. That's not people wearing nostalgia glasses. I think some people overlooked it at the time because of the Prime hype, but that's not the same as the fanbase rejecting it. Nothing like the Wind Waker situation around the same time.

 

[Chocolate Rain]

Ok, well a general audience is shitting on Prime 4, with popular Youtubers pointing out issues with it, not just a very specific autistic group. Totally different situation.

>General audiences
>youtubers


This year made it very clear that the opinions of youtubers dont mean jackshit nor are they representative of the opinions of general audiences especially when most of them are outrage clickbaiters. MKW is selling like hotcakes and won best racing game at the VGAs despite all the negative traction it got online, PZA is outselling Legends and despite the vitriol from people who long since stopped playing Pokémon games most modern fans are happy with it. In comparison to MKW and PZA the generally reception to Prime 4 is leading more towards positive than negative even on YT, Vinny was positive about it as were other nintendo tubers, hell it isn't even getting review bombed like those two


So despite all the hyperbole and ragebait over NPCs people dont hate Prime 4, it'll sell on track with every Metroid game i.e. not well and then years later we'll see a bunch of revisionist history essays saying that "We were wrong about Prime 4".


And this is the saddest thing about Nintendo discourse now because they can get away with what they do because outrage farmers focus on the most inane shit that its hard to take any criticism towards them seriously. Prime 4 has a lot of flaws but all that gets posted is the same clip of the desert and Myles and irony is that the latter ended up being among the least offensive things about it.

 

[Soggy Floppa]

hell it isn't even getting review bombed like those two

apparently you can't review bomb if its with 10/10 instead of 0/10

 

[Chocolate Rain]

apparently you can't review bomb if its with 10/10 instead of 0/10

Remember its only considered review bombing when it doesn't align with my opinion!

 

[Chocolate Rain]

Fusion was extremely critically acclaimed when it came out. That's not people wearing nostalgia glasses. I think some people overlooked it at the time because of the Prime hype, but that's not the same as the fanbase rejecting it. Nothing like the Wind Waker situation around the same time.

Fusion didn't do well and something being critically acclaimed on release does not mean it'll have the same reception years later hence why nostalgiafagging is a thing most associated with that era of Nintendo. Also Prime 1 literally had the most TORtantic prerelease of a Nintendo title nobody was hyped for it let alone Metroid fans and it also didn't sell well despite its critical acclaim.

 

[Never Scored]

Fusion didn't do well and something being critically acclaimed on release does not mean it'll have the same reception years later hence why nostalgiafagging is a thing most associated with that era of Nintendo. Also Prime 1 literally had the most TORtantic prerelease of a Nintendo title nobody was hyped for it let alone Metroid fans and it also didn't sell well despite its critical acclaim.
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I love you were so fucking mad about my post saying people liked Fusion when it came out, you had to quote me twice and dig up your little fourm posts. lol LMAO

Do you think a handful of forum posts over the course of several years reflect a general consensus? You literally gave me this as your evidence:

Were there A LOT of complaints about those things, or did you see like 6 guys on 4Chan complain about them?

Also Prime 1 literally had the most TORtantic prerelease of a Nintendo title nobody was hyped for it let alone Metroid fans and it also didn't sell well despite its critical acclaim.

Metroid Prime sold nearly 3 million copies and is in the top 10 best selling games for Gamecube. Fusion's 1.6 million copies would be considered decent at the time. To put it in a historical context, both these games sold better than Super Metroid. Games that weren't pack ins very rarely broke more than a few million in sales until the Wii/360/PS3 era. They both sold extremely decently for the time they were released.

 

[Chocolate Rain]

I love you were so fucking mad about my post saying people like Fusion when it came out, you had to quote me twice and dig up your little fourm posts. lol LMAO

>I love how you were so mad that you proved me wrong

The hilarious fucking thing about all of this is even in the fucking Metroid thread on here brings up the fact that Fusion is linear as fuck so its a very common sentiment to point out about it not something thats a community specific concern.


All I did was point out that Metroid fags sperg out about every new title after Super so seeing that a relatively ok title like Prime 4 has is so divisive doesn't mean anything yet you got upset about Fusion even going as far as to quote review scores from back then as if they mean anything but given that you were retarded enough to quote the opinions of youtubers I dont believe you ever had a point to make you were just upset over me shitting on it.