Megathread Non-binary genders / Enbies - When Male and Female Aren't Special Enough

To be honest I think there is a "right" way to be nonbinary. I'm just going to insert my two cents due to all the nb people I'm forced to be in contact with. I think making an effort to look/sound androgynous, and actually having dysphoria is a key thing. I don't agree with 73 or so genders, that's stupid. However if someone actually is a grown ass adult thinking they're "in between" or "both" and seems to make an effort i'll be more likely to take them seriously.

Funnily enough the one person I know who seems to actually be dead serious about being nb, absolutely hates genderfluid-identifying people and the idea of 72 genders, even they think it's complete bullshit. They're a believer in the "four points" theory ("male, female, both, neither, and that's it.").

In a way, I get it. Every other of the 72 (or however many there are now) genders that isn't both or neither seems to either be an aesthetic gender or a re-hash of those two, like "demiboy".

Honestly, I agree with this. If someone says they’re dysphoric to be seen as any gender and they want to be nothing- and they actually want to look androgynous/remove any (secondary?) sexual characteristics and whatever, then sure, whatever makes them
happy.

I don’t know if I’ve ever met anyone like that. I’ve got a couple of friends who’ve (at various times) gone the whole non-binary route. One I think is more serious than the other, and has been going at it for longer, had surgery, hasn’t changed their mind about it, doesn’t do the whole “I may look like x, but I’m actually not!” thing or write tirades about misgendering or special pronouns.
The other I’m not convinced it’s not a phase, and I’m just waiting for them to get bored of it. But maybe they won’t. I don’t know. It’s been going a while now.

But whatever, I’ll still refer to both of them how they want. In our circle of friends, anyway. To people not used to it, it gets confusing. “They” may be gender-neutral, but when used constantly it just sounds like you’re talking about more than one person.

I guess I can also get “wanting to be both genders”, but I’ve never seen anyone like that or wanting to be referred to as that/wanting to have all the sexual characteristics and look like both. Probably because then you’d just look like a man with moobs. But hey, if someone wants that, I suppose fine.

Don’t understand the differences between the rest of the “non binary” stuff though. How is bigender different from pangender or third gender? I mean, aside from for oppression points and reeeing when people call you “ze” instead of “xe”. It’s way too much done on a feels basis.

So yeah, as much as I can accept/respect/be polite to trans women and men who actually want to be seen as women and men and just get on with their lives, I can do the same for those who want to be non-binary. I think it’s really rare, even more so than transgenders, and don’t know who will change their mind and grow out of it, but whatever, it’s not my life or my body.

If they spend more time talking about it than living it though, I can’t be bothered.
 
The impression I get is that legit non-binary people exist, however they're even rarer than binary trans people (who are already an extreme minority). I've seen people saying stuff like having and sex characteristics gives them dysphoria and I can buy that. The vast majority claiming to be non-binary because they don't fit into gender stereotypes 100% are bullshit though.

I think a lot of these kids probably were raised by electronic babysitters and have limited interaction with real people, thus they don't realize a vast majority of real people don't conform 100% to stereotypes like tv and movie characters so they don't realize they're actually pretty normal. Same with shit like demisexual, these kids just watch all these shows where characters are massive horndogs and don't interact with real people enough to realize "demisexuality" is actually how a vast majority of people are.
 
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??????' he/him lesbians ??????
 
I’ve seen my fair share of “he/him lesbians” and posts defending it, but not any “she/her gay men”. There probably are some around, but I don’t know how popular it is.

Same for “he/him” heterosexual women. Are there any? Are there any women/girls left on the site who call themselves heterosexual women? Would they get attacked for appropriation?
 
I’ve seen my fair share of “he/him lesbians” and posts defending it, but not any “she/her gay men”. There probably are some around, but I don’t know how popular it is.

Same for “he/him” heterosexual women. Are there any? Are there any women/girls left on the site who call themselves heterosexual women? Would they get attacked for appropriation?

I've seen posts on tumblr that point out that gay men do call each other she/her which is why he/him for lesbians is fine. And Leslie Feinberg, who was sort of an early non-binary (but only sort of) said:
And in an all trans setting, referring to me as ‘he/him’ honors my gender expression in the same way that referring to my sister drag queens as ‘she/her’ does.”
but Leslie Feinberg also said
I am female-bodied, I am a butch lesbian, a transgender lesbian — referring to me as ‘she/her’ is appropriate, particularly in a non-trans setting in which referring to me as ‘he’ would appear to resolve the social contradiction between my birth sex and gender expression and render my transgender expression invisible
So, perhaps, not exactly the same as what tumblrites want.

And I do see gay men using 'she' for other men, but often when they're clearly trying to be a petty bitch. For example, this thread on Datalounge where they're talking about Lindsey Graham, who is referred to as Miss Lindsey and Madame la Senatrice. Or this title making fun of Chad Rogers. Now this is something that arose out of gay camp sensibilities, which wouldn't really make sense for lesbians. But if you were going to do it, it wouldn't be respectful.
 
How is wearing different clothes has anything to do with gender? This reminds me of those scene kids who would dress up in chains and colorful hair and go around saying they were sparkle dogs and there identity of being just as valid and shit. Anything that requires superficial outfit changes is not a gender or political statement it's just attention seeking teen garbage.
 
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God, so many contradictions. On the one hand, you have people saying clothing isn't gendered, and on the other, you have people saying wearing different clothing effects your gender. Fucking- which is it?! Seems they're reinforcing the same gender stereotypes they purport to combat.

Then dangerhairs get all buttmad when someone misgenders them. But if physical sex is irrelevant, and clothing is irrelevant, then your only option would be to tattoo your pronouns onto your face. I guess the first thing you say to everyone you meet would be your pronouns, but that's pretty cumbersome if the person you're talking to is someone you're going to talk to for five minutes and never meet again. Are you gonna roll up to McDonald's and explain your pronouns before you order?

And why is being misgendered by strangers such a monumental occasion? I got misgendered by waitresses and such all the time as a teenager- my response? "She's a stranger, so who cares." Family members misgendering you purposefully out of malice is one thing, but random strangers literally have nothing to draw upon but gender stereotypes, and maybe some of your physical attributes. Cut people some slack, Christ.

If I had to summarize Tumblr social justice in ten words, it would be: A whole lot of unnecessary fuss over clothes and labels.
 
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God, so many contradictions. On the one hand, you have people saying clothing isn't gendered, and on the other, you have people saying wearing different clothing effects your gender. Fucking- which is it?! Seems they're reinforcing the same gender stereotypes they purport to combat.

Then dangerhairs get all buttmad when someone misgenders them. But if physical sex is irrelevant, and clothing is irrelevant, then your only option would be to tattoo your pronouns onto your face. I guess the first thing you say to everyone you meet would be your pronouns, but that's pretty cumbersome if the person you're talking to is someone you're going to talk to for five minutes and never meet again. Are you gonna roll up to McDonald's and explain your pronouns before you order?

And why is being misgendered by strangers such a monumental occasion? I got misgendered by waitresses and such all the time as a teenager- my response? "She's a stranger, so who cares." Family members misgendering you purposefully out of malice is one thing, but random strangers literally have nothing to draw upon but gender stereotypes, and maybe some of your physical attributes. Cut people some slack, Christ.

If I had to summarize Tumblr social justice in ten words, it would be: A whole lot of unnecessary fuss over clothes and labels.

literally though, "clothes don't have genders I can wear dresses and still be a trans man and people have to call me he/him" but then "I'm wearing a dress and makeup because I feel like a girl today, yesterday I wore a tshirt and jeans because i felt like a boy"
Tumblr trans people are probably more sexist, they're trying to enforce sexist gender roles by saying that if you aren't girly, you're not a girl anymore, you're transgender, and if you're not a masculine dude, you're clearly nonbinary or a trans woman. That's not trying to smash gender roles, that's strictly enforcing them.
 
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(Note: CAGAB is Coercively Assigned Gender at Birth.)
I know this post is almost two years old, but I'm extremely confused.

My understanding of sex and gender from the resident SJWs at my university is that sex is determined by your dick or vagina and gender is determined by your physical expression of whether you want to be perceived as having a dick or have a vagina. No one is "coercively assigned" a gender; you're either male or female at birth, depending on your anatomy. Your gender is determined by how physically express yourself once you can understand gender expression.

If you have a dick and you generally dress like people who have dicks, how can you be transgender? If you have a vagina and you generally dress like people who have vaginas, how can you be transgender? I thought that was why "gender is a social construct" is a big trope in the SJW crowd. If that's the case, how can you be transgender if you don't have gender dysphoria?

Granted, I do believe non-binary gendered people are real, but there's only one non-binary gender: neither male or female. I also believe they're incredibly rare and probably don't bitch about it on the internet, seeing as how transgender people usually want to be accepted as the gender they outwardly express. Nobody goes around screaming "I am/am not x!!!" unless they're incredibly insecure about being x.

I know the answer to my questions is :autism:, but just saying. The constant inconsistencies and 1950s level of sexism is fucking confusing and hilarious.
 
I know this post is almost two years old, but I'm extremely confused.

My understanding of sex and gender from the resident SJWs at my university is that sex is determined by your dick or vagina and gender is determined by your physical expression of whether you want to be perceived as having a dick or have a vagina. No one is "coercively assigned" a gender; you're either male or female at birth, depending on your anatomy. Your gender is determined by how physically express yourself once you can understand gender expression..

I think "coercively assigned gender at birth" is for intersex people who don't have determinable sex characteristics (very rare genetic mutation) and are brought up as a man or woman by the parents from birth. I've heard some people do have surgery done early on to "fix" it, I don't know if that's a myth or not, I can't really dig up any sources right now.

People who aren't intersex who use it are just :autism:. They aren't coercively assigned a gender. They were born a certain sex, and were raised accordingly, though a small percentage of people don't want to be the sex they were born.
Some intersex people do have other sex characteristics but I believe there's many variants of intersex from what people have told me- however I don't know anyone with that condition personally, so I may be talking out my ass.
 
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I know this post is almost two years old, but I'm extremely confused.

My understanding of sex and gender from the resident SJWs at my university is that sex is determined by your dick or vagina and gender is determined by your physical expression of whether you want to be perceived as having a dick or have a vagina. No one is "coercively assigned" a gender; you're either male or female at birth, depending on your anatomy. Your gender is determined by how physically express yourself once you can understand gender expression.

If you have a dick and you generally dress like people who have dicks, how can you be transgender? If you have a vagina and you generally dress like people who have vaginas, how can you be transgender? I thought that was why "gender is a social construct" is a big trope in the SJW crowd. If that's the case, how can you be transgender if you don't have gender dysphoria?

Granted, I do believe non-binary gendered people are real, but there's only one non-binary gender: neither male or female. I also believe they're incredibly rare and probably don't bitch about it on the internet, seeing as how transgender people usually want to be accepted as the gender they outwardly express. Nobody goes around screaming "I am/am not x!!!" unless they're incredibly insecure about being x.

I know the answer to my questions is :autism:, but just saying. The constant inconsistencies and 1950s level of sexism is fucking confusing and hilarious.

From my understanding, cafab/camab were originally used by the intersex community (who often undergo forced surgery on their genitalia and gonads at a young age, hence 'coercively'), then transgender communities lifted the language for their own desires. Which is why they're calling it AGAB instead of the original ASAB, because how else could you enforce that sex and gender are the same exact thing?

On a side note, most of the people I see using CAGAB language in the trans community are communist autogynephilic twansgurls who constantly shit on "AFABs" while naming themselves 'Kitti' or other really childish names.
 
From my understanding, cafab/camab were originally used by the intersex community (who often undergo forced surgery on their genitalia and gonads at a young age, hence 'coercively'), then transgender communities lifted the language for their own desires. Which is why they're calling it AGAB instead of the original ASAB, because how else could you enforce that sex and gender are the same exact thing?

On a side note, most of the people I see using CAGAB language in the trans community are communist autogynephilic twansgurls who constantly shit on "AFABs" while naming themselves 'Kitti' or other really childish names.
Thank you. That makes so much more sense. I can see why the intersex community would be upset over that.

Coersive gender assignment, however, reeks of the "My doctor cosersively assigned me female at birth. That doctor's name? Dr. Pot Pot Hitler Stalin, MD" tumblr stories.
 
I think "coercively assigned gender at birth" is for intersex people who don't have determinable sex characteristics (very rare genetic mutation) and are brought up as a man or woman by the parents from birth. I've heard some people do have surgery done early on to "fix" it, I don't know if that's a myth or not, I can't really dig up any sources right now.

People who aren't intersex who use it are just :autism:. They aren't coercively assigned a gender. They were born a certain sex, and were raised accordingly, though a small percentage of people don't want to be the sex they were born.
Some intersex people do have other sex characteristics but I believe there's many variants of intersex from what people have told me- however I don't know anyone with that condition personally, so I may be talking out my ass.

Intersex people generally don't like being lumped in with the LGBT, which makes sense given that being intersex is both highly private and has nothing to do with personal identity like being gay or trans does. Also, it's worth noting that most intersex people have more physical traits of one sex than the other, so they're not really "coerced" as much as "deemed".

A dude who possesses all the outward sex traits of a male, for instance, while also having a uterus. His having a uterus is something only he and a doctor would know, so why the fuck would he need to join a social movement over it?
 
Intersex people generally don't like being lumped in with the LGBT, which makes sense given that being intersex is both highly private and has nothing to do with personal identity like being gay or trans does. Also, it's worth noting that most intersex people have more physical traits of one sex than the other, so they're not really "coerced" as much as "deemed".

A dude who possesses all the outward sex traits of a male, for instance, while also having a uterus. His having a uterus is something only he and a doctor would know, so why the fuck would he need to join a social movement over it?

A lot of the reason intersex people hate being included in the LGBT community is because people use intersex as a crutch to say that nonbinary is legit.
Intersex is NOT proof of a third gender nor is it a third gender in it's own right. Someone who has gender dysphoria is proof of a "third gender". Funnily enough though the only real representation I see of nonbinary people are the crazy kids who believe gender roles = gender, not the people who are actually serious and want to transition, though the ones who are serious don't make as much noise about it, so we see less of them anyway.
 
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Also, it's worth noting that most intersex people have more physical traits of one sex than the other, so they're not really "coerced" as much as "deemed".

The coercive part comes from surgery intended to turn an intersex child into a specific sex, usually out of the parents' or doctor's taste rather than the child's well being, often impacting the child's quality of life later.

Case Study No. 4
The child was born 1999 with ambiguous genitals. In the following weeks, at the Basel University Children’s Hospital, blood, urine and other tests were conducted to establish the sex of the newborn. One day the doctors came and said that it‘s rather a girl, the next day it was a boy and so forth. The word “intersex” was never mentioned. After countless tests the doctors diagnosed a 46,XY Mixed Gonadal Dysgenesis. The doctors then insisted on genital surgery, they wanted to make a girl. After obtaining informations from the internet and meeting persons concerned, the parents cancelled the surgery a few days before the scheduled appointment. The parents raise their child as a girl, but want herself to decide later.


The mother of the person concerned tells their story:
After I had given birth to my first child, I noticed that the doctors were whispering something about a “slightly swollen genital, but it’s normal, probably the baby got to much hormones during pregnancy.” The midwife took the child for check-up to the next room. A doctor, who was there by chance, wanted to know more about the genital. The midwife could just prevent him to put a cotton stick into the child to see, if there was a vagina, and how deep it went in. Nobody seemed to have the situation under control, or knew how to act towards us. We felt completely helpless. The midwife had never seen such a child, and didn‘t know about intersex. The doctors wanted to further examine the newborn. Still dizzy because of the anaesthesia, I agreed, and so my child, my husband and the midwife left for the children’s hospital. Next was a check in the Basel University Children’s Hospital that took several weeks, blood, urine and other tests to establish the sex of the newborn.

One day the doctors came and said it’s rather a girl, the next day it was a boy and so forth. The word “intersex” was never mentioned. We couldn‘t give our child a name which wasn‘t easy for me. Family and friends called and wanted to know whether it‘s a boy or a girl. I said: I don‘t know. They thought that I was joking. I was never sad, but angry instead, because the doctors experimented around with this little innocent creature. I as well disapproved of the doctors position of power, they always came into the room in twos or threes. I didn‘t understand the technical terms they used, and I felt like an idiot. I feared that my child might be seriously ill.

During one of the countless consultations, the physicians finally told us our child is chromosomal male (XY), but shows a lot of the characteristics of a girl, for example an enlarged clitoris. They couldn’t clearly determine whether there were testes or ovaries in the abdomen. The doctors recommended to remove the gonads as soon as possible, because later there could be a cancer risk. I consented under the pressure of the doctors, it was our first child, we were afraid to lose it over cancer. I still don‘t know if this surgical intervention was necessary. Six month after birth, the doctors advised us to let our child undergo genital surgery. They wanted to make a girl. I didn‘t know at that time that there are a lot of testimonies by persons concerned who suffer from such surgeries. I just knew that this surgery isn’t right.

I continued to ask the doctors why they would want to perform surgery. They always answered the same way: A child without a clearly defined sex is socially worthless. The other children will tease and exclude it, there will be problems while exercising or swimming at school. The child has to know where it belongs to. The expression “intersex” still wasn‘t mentioned at that time. The doctors continued to insist on surgery: they wanted to shorten the enlarged clitoris, adjust the labia and construct a vagina during puberty – it had to become a girl. I wanted to know if the child would be able to have sexual sensations at all after the surgery. They hesitated, and then told me that the chances were good, but that they didn’t know for sure. Then one of the doctors said: It‘s worse for a man not being able to pee standing, than it is for a woman to have sex without feelings. It would be easier for a woman to deal with it.

I was outraged. It was a very difficult time. My husband, who until then supported the idea of a surgery, began to have doubts. Then my father began to search in the internet and found a lot of information which we gratefully absorbed. Suddenly we knew that our child is intersex, and that there are self-help groups. We contacted such a group immediately and went to a meeting, where we learned about many tragic fates, countless surgeries with bad outcomes, fears and pains. We then cancelled the surgery few days before the scheduled appointment. The doctors were almost furious with us, and called us irresponsible. What always made me angry all over these years, is the fact that every doctor wanted to look at our child‘s genitals. That‘s still the case, whether we have to go to the hospital because of a bone fracture or whatever. As soon as the doctors read the diagnosis “intersex” in the medical records, they ask: “Could we take a look at the child’s genital?”

Our child grows up as a girl, but she knows that she is a special girl and can decide for herself how she wants to live. Being intersex is no problem for our daughter. “There are boys and there are girls, and there is me,” she says. The most important thing is to constantly inform the children according to their age, and to explain intersex to the neighbourhood. The family and close friends know about our daughters particularity. Although we live in a small village where everybody knows everyone, the social exclusion predicted by the doctors didn‘t happen.

Retrospectively I can say, we were completely over-strained both because of the insecurity of the doctors and our missing know-how. But thank God we always were able to accept our child with his particularity. I think it‘s important to be honest and give her the possibility to go her own way. As a boy, a girl or none of both. We had to fight against the doctors in order to preserve the freedom of choice for our child. I am happy that we had the strength to stand up to them!

So, uh, dramatically different and more severe than what kids on tumblr are misusing it as.
 
Some intersex surgery is done solely because the person looks 'weird', though, or is otherwise not within the norm, and it's not always just done to infants. For example, they removed male gonads and partially removed the clitoris of 4 female athletes so they would continue to be allowed to compete. But there was no risk of physical harm. Or this woman: raised male, discovered to have female reproductive organs, was coerced into having them removed, successfully sued. Or this guy, born with a micropenis, raised female, had a vaginoplasty, not happy about it. Here's another article, where a kid has his dick cut off as a baby (a normal sized one, at that), was raised female, but now considers himself a boy and is not happy about it either.

Intersex people have had real and unnecessary harm done to them against their consent--and these are the same surgeries trans people willingly inflict upon themselves.
 
Some intersex surgery is done solely because the person looks 'weird', though, or is otherwise not within the norm, and it's not always just done to infants. For example, they removed male gonads and partially removed the clitoris of 4 female athletes so they would continue to be allowed to compete. But there was no risk of physical harm. Or this woman: raised male, discovered to have female reproductive organs, was coerced into having them removed, successfully sued. Or this guy, born with a micropenis, raised female, had a vaginoplasty, not happy about it. Here's another article, where a kid has his dick cut off as a baby (a normal sized one, at that), was raised female, but now considers himself a boy and is not happy about it either.

Intersex people have had real and unnecessary harm done to them against their consent--and these are the same surgeries trans people willingly inflict upon themselves.

I honestly think it's creepy that people care so much about what their kids' genitalia look like. If they're a healthy, functioning kid, fucking leave it, and allow them to decide whether or not they want to have work done when they reach adulthood.

Even little shit like circumcision (which has been proven to have no impact on the hygeine of the kid and only serves to reduce sexual sensation in adults) is fucked up when you think about it.
 
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