Open Source Software Community - it's about ethics in Code of Conducts

[HalHalliday]

I'm just waiting for the very serious implementation of the Wayland protocol written in Jai. Of course licensed under the Beer-ware+nigger license.

Sadly, not going to happen, since we all know jai doesn't actually exist.

Jokes aside, I do appreciate jblow for not eshitifying the space by releasing a half-baked solution, which is oh-so common. You could say, the only standard in the OSS world, that everyone upholds, is to release software before you have 80% of it done, and often, far far less.

 

[HootersMcBoobies]

Another Lunduke that just feels dishonest.. He talks about how openSUSE is disabling bcachefs, and tries to make the developer just seem like some "opinionated" guy. He calls the Linux kernel maintains "penguin nuns."

Anyone whose actually read the mailing list e-mails know this guy was a piece of work, submitting features during code freezes and being horribly uncooperative when it came to basic code policies. At around 5:50, Lunduke claims all the other developers, including Linus himself, have pushed massive breaking changes late in the development cycle. I know this happened years ago, but .. has this happened since Torvalds had his whole coming to Jesus moment a while back? Lunduke claims the removal of bcachefs has nothing to do with anything political, but just that the kernel maintainers don't like the guy. But then Lunduke doesn't go over any of the actual e-mails or evidence; just states his opinion and hand waves it away.

 

[Creative Username]

Jokes aside, I do appreciate jblow for not eshitifying the space by releasing a half-baked solution, which is oh-so common. You could say, the only standard in the OSS world, that everyone upholds, is to release software before you have 80% of it done, and often, far far less.

from what i've seen of other vaporware languages with 3-letter names, jai will probably amount to absolutely nothing
for all the sneeding i give languages i hate, at least they don't make the classic mistake: putting the language through 19 years of private development until it's "as good as possible" (this has never worked, whether done by individuals or in teams)
usually languages like that get released and nobody cares about them because they are tuned for what 1 specific pretentious faggot thinks, to the exclusion of all other possibilities

also a crucial part of any language is that the moment it is released into the real world, it will inevitably begin mutating in shocking and disgusting ways. i find that the quality of a programming language is never about the way it was initially designed, but about how it has historically managed to adapt to people using it in really retarded ways

some languages are absolutely released in a retardedly early state (and it damages them unless the designers intentionally cause breaking changes) but there's only so much up-front design you can do before any further design becomes an exercise in jerking yourself off about how streamlined your language is

 

[prollyanotherlurker]

Anyone whose actually read the mailing list e-mails know this guy was a piece of work, submitting features during code freezes and being horribly uncooperative when it came to basic code policies. At around 5:50, Lunduke claims all the other developers, including Linus himself, have pushed massive breaking changes late in the development cycle. I know this happened years ago, but .. has this happened since Torvalds had his whole coming to Jesus moment a while back? Lunduke claims the removal of bcachefs has nothing to do with anything political, but just that the kernel maintainers don't like the guy. But then Lunduke doesn't go over any of the actual e-mails or evidence; just states his opinion and hand waves it away.

Yeah. That was the kind of thing I was talking about when I said Lunduke will make videos that I really don't like. Then get me back on hist side with some other video later.

Like you said. Everyone that has already followed the situation closely knows this is a mischaracterization of the events to make it seem more sensational. It's the biggest problem with Lunduke. He editorializes way to much, and bases entire stories off of his opinion. When he makes a story telling a half truth about something that happened. It's really only hurting his credibility. At least for the people that already know the story. I don't know at this point if he makes some of these videos purely because he knows it will make some people really mad because he basically lied by omission, or if he has some other motivation. Like painting parts of the opensource world, in as bad a light as he can. The kernel in particular seems like on of the things he will often do these kinds of stories on. All I know is if you aren't completely honest with what you are saying it takes away a lot of the effectiveness of your message. Because it shows everyone you are willing to bend the truth to fit your narrative.

Like in this case yes, the maintainers didn't like the guy, but he was given quite a few chances to avoid this. He would do a bit better at avoiding the same problem with the merge window for a little while. Then go back to doing the same thing. He didn't seem to fully grasp what everyone else was telling him. He would just deflect to something else, and act like people were criticizing his code because they had a problem with him not following the release schedule.

When there are as many people submitting changes to the kernel as there are. It would be absolute chaos if they didn't have some kind of system to organize it. And it's not like they did this on his first time ignoring the merge window. It was repeatedly doing it and refusing to understand what people were telling him. Then pointing how much better his filesystem is, instead of trying to understand the what people were actually telling him

 

[Lard Shart]

The Rust fangirls (male) have already rewritten git from scratch (https://github.com/jj-vcs/jj).
They simply do not want to run any C or C++ software at all, therefore all of the industry-standard software MUST be transitioned to Rust OR broken to such an extent that the Rust alternatives become the only viable option.

This conspiracy was described by a song verse in "The Protocols of the Elders of Ferric Oxide":

You say we all write code you don’t respect. But you’re just frightened. You think that we’ll corrupt your FOSS if our agenda goes unchecked. Funny, just this once, you’re correct.

We’ll convert your projects – happens bit by bit, quietly and subtly and you will barely notice it…

Just like you’re worried, we’ll change their dependencies, you won’t approve of the languages we write. And you’ll be disgusted when they depend on code online that you kept far from sight…

We’ll convert your projects – Yes we will! – reaching one and all, there’s really no escaping it, cause even grandma likes Rust…

The world’s getting safer, your code unsafer than Gaza…We’re coming for them. We’re coming for your projects…The Rust agenda is coming home. The Rust agenda is here.

 

[XL xQgg?QcQCaTYDMjqoDnYpG]

The Rust fangirls (male) have already rewritten git from scratch (https://github.com/jj-vcs/jj).
They simply do not want to run any C or C++ software at all, therefore all of the industry-standard software MUST be transitioned to Rust OR broken to such an extent that the Rust alternatives become the only viable option.

This conspiracy was described by a song verse in "The Protocols of the Elders of Ferric Oxide":

From the river to the sea, they're getting rid of C

 

[Creative Username]

well at the end of the day if the shitlang becomes too much of a problem, some guy will rewrite all the rustarded code in c (or maybe something actually better (simpler) than c?) again

 

[HalHalliday]

from what i've seen of other vaporware languages with 3-letter names, jai will probably amount to absolutely nothing
for all the sneeding i give languages i hate, at least they don't make the classic mistake: putting the language through 19 years of private development until it's "as good as possible" (this has never worked, whether done by individuals or in teams)
usually languages like that get released and nobody cares about them because they are tuned for what 1 specific pretentious faggot thinks, to the exclusion of all other possibilities

also a crucial part of any language is that the moment it is released into the real world, it will inevitably begin mutating in shocking and disgusting ways. i find that the quality of a programming language is never about the way it was initially designed, but about how it has historically managed to adapt to people using it in really retarded ways

some languages are absolutely released in a retardedly early state (and it damages them unless the designers intentionally cause breaking changes) but there's only so much up-front design you can do before any further design becomes an exercise in jerking yourself off about how streamlined your language is

Obviously I disagree. It would be better if software wasn't released the moment it can be.

What issues will arise if jai amounts to nothing? Is it used in anything? No. So what's the issue?

But guess what, when some faggot, no less pretentious, releases a language that's PR'd into being the next big thing and shoved into every orifice that can be found or made, I find that to be an issue.

When some faggot releases half-baked software that starts to be relied on by half the industry, that barely runs and can barely do the thing it's supposed to do, because it's quicker, cheaper, and lazier to stack upon that, yeah, I find that to be an issue too.

Jai, or whatever it will be called, has no significance right now on anything that runs. And that is, unironically, a good thing.

There are people beta-testing it, so Jonathan does have some feedback, and even if he didn't, so what? I've seen what committee software and languages do. They are everywhere, and they are fucking awful. If some sperg is trying something different and burning his own money doing it, who is he hurting?

If everyone were more reserved with releasing software into the wild, there would be far less bad software out there.

 

[Creative Username]

Obviously I disagree. It would be better if software wasn't released the moment it can be.

honestly i don't think so, if i were developing a nice new language i would put it up the day it starts being recognizable as a programming language but slap the world's largest "THIS IS IN HEAVY DEVELOPMENT AND I WILL FUCK YOU UP IF YOU USE THIS FOR SERIOUS SHIT" warning on everything
of course if somebody's language radically changes too much while they're making it, it's a huge sign that they have language-design-related skill issues and should stick to stuff that's more their level, like writing web apps

But guess what, when some faggot, no less pretentious, releases a language that's PR'd into being the next big thing and shoved into every orifice that can be found or made, I find that to be an issue.

When some faggot releases half-baked software that starts to be relied on by half the industry, that barely runs and can barely do the thing it's supposed to do, because it's quicker, cheaper, and lazier to stack upon that, yeah, I find that to be an issue too.

this was how many of today's greatest languages spawned and is a pattern you can see throughout the history of computing, if not the history of technology itself: some faggot makes a barely-working piece of shit and eventually it ends up absolutely fucking everywhere, and then after several years of everything breaking all the time it either finally matures (more common than you would think) or it just becomes another collective learning experience for the art of engineering (less likely, and sad when it happens)
c once had a reputation for being half-baked dogshit. it didn't change the fact that it mostly worked in practice, which is probably why all of c's competitors are obsolete and forgotten now
rust is an overcomplicated heap of shit with a terrible toolchain. i don't think anybody in their right mind would use it, if it weren't for the inconvenient fact that it mogs c in a couple of important ways (and the only real alternative is... uh... c++ (yeah, fucking c++))

If everyone were more reserved with releasing software into the wild, there would be far less bad software out there.

there'd be a lot less software out there. it would still be exactly as bad, if not worse

 

[volatile puar]

rust is an overcomplicated heap of shit with a terrible toolchain. i don't think anybody in their right mind would use it, if it weren't for the inconvenient fact that it mogs c in a couple of important ways (and the only real alternative is... uh... c++ (yeah, fucking c++))

This reminds me of Andreas Kling telling his team that they were going to choose a new language to write their browser (Ladybird) in, and most of them really wanted to use Rust and were excited about it. That is, they were excited about it, until they actually started using it, and they realized it wasn't as good as they thought. They eventually decided on Apple's Swift.

 

[Creative Username]

That is, they were excited about it, until they actually started using it, and they realized it wasn't as good as they thought.

top 10 signs of a doomed project (hopefully it makes browsers actually follow the standards again though)

They eventually decided on Apple's Swift.

i have so little exposure to swift that it might as well be not real, but i assume it works great as long as you are compiling for a specific family of mach-based unix-like operating systems (and not the gnu hurd)
and on other platforms it only just sort of works and doesn't work as perfectly as c

if they wanted to choose a real programming language they would just wait a bit for r7rs-large to come out. otherwise just stick with c++, because there are 3 kinds of languages in the world: 1. the lisps 2. abhorrent shitlangs with good platform support 3. boring mid languages that don't work very well but don't qualify as a lisp either

 

[HalHalliday]

honestly i don't think so

That's fine. It's not like we disagree on the outcome we want. I just don't think the way it's been done is good, because the outcome isn't good. So if someone has a different approach, I'm more interested in that.

if i were developing a nice new language i would put it up the day it starts being recognizable as a programming language but slap the world's largest "THIS IS IN HEAVY DEVELOPMENT AND I WILL FUCK YOU UP IF YOU USE THIS FOR SERIOUS SHIT" warning on everything

I would like that sticker. If anything, it should be put on more things.

Every time a developer shits out the greatest Punjabi piece of crap west of the Ganges, thinking it's a pure nugget of gold, they feel the need to smear it everywhere. Why? If developers were capable of a little bit more restraint and self reflection, that would go a long way toward making software better, simply by there not being as much software.

this was how many of today's greatest languages spawned and is a pattern you can see throughout the history of computing, if not the history of technology itself: some faggot makes a barely-working piece of shit and eventually it ends up absolutely fucking everywhere, and then after several years of everything breaking all the time it either finally matures (more common than you would think) or it just becomes another collective learning experience for the art of engineering (less likely, and sad when it happens)
c once had a reputation for being half-baked dogshit. it didn't change the fact that it mostly worked in practice, which is probably why all of c's competitors are obsolete and forgotten now
rust is an overcomplicated heap of shit with a terrible toolchain. i don't think anybody in their right mind would use it, if it weren't for the inconvenient fact that it mogs c in a couple of important ways (and the only real alternative is... uh... c++ (yeah, fucking c++))

Oh, there is definitely something to say about "being first" or "shipping fast". It clearly has an advantage. However, when I look at the state of things, I can't say that this led to a great place. Sure, maybe that's just inevitable, as you continue in the next paragraph, and after all it does take just one person to start the chain of "let's ship now and fix later", but I can't bring myself to be positive about this. Or accept that. Do you know what I mean? I think it's wrong. Like, morally wrong, on some fundamental level. It's like becoming a creature of the sewers.

C worked because it had macros; that's what made the language viable. Personally, I don't think Rust solved any of C's problems, but it's still a step up from C++, which is an absolute mess. C with Classes and its consequences, and all that.

Language by itself won't fix any of this. But as I said, I appreciate that Jai doesn't add more deluge to this. And just that is more positive than what Rust or whatever C-would-be-fixers are doing.

 

[prollyanotherlurker]

top 10 signs of a doomed project (hopefully it makes browsers actually follow the standards again though)

i have so little exposure to swift that it might as well be not real, but i assume it works great as long as you are compiling for a specific family of mach-based unix-like operating systems (and not the gnu hurd)
and on other platforms it only just sort of works and doesn't work as perfectly as c

if they wanted to choose a real programming language they would just wait a bit for r7rs-large to come out. otherwise just stick with c++, because there are 3 kinds of languages in the world: 1. the lisps 2. abhorrent shitlangs with good platform support 3. boring mid languages that don't work very well but don't qualify as a lisp either

Just use go. Are supply chain attacks even real? Sounds like FUD to me. Just don't think about it, and use googles language for all your projects.

 

[Creative Username]

Just use go. Are supply chain attacks even real? Sounds like FUD to me. Just don't think about it, and use googles language for all your projects.

go is actually made by some of the original retards responsible for c, and has a better gcc compiler than the gcc compiler for rust
also my favorite package manager packages go libraries exactly how it packages c libraries so it's technically possible to circumvent the retardation at least somewhat

 

[Gorton Colu]

Hear me out. What is needed is another new programming language.

 

[Jotch]

We already have Rust, that is the only language you are allowed to use.

 

[DavidS877]

Hear me out. What is needed is another new programming language.

We just need to take the best features of each. The pointer support from C, the readability of Perl, the cross-platform support of Rust, the speed of Python, the privacy of Go, the simplicity of C++, the wide adoption of Ruby, the autism of Lisp.

 

[analrapist]

Hear me out. What is needed is another new programming language.

The more the merrier, as far as I'm concerned. However terrible your language, the alternatives are worse.

 

[Creative Username]

We already have Rust, that is the only language you are allowed to use.

as a member of the GNU/Conspiracy i would like to inform the thread that there has actually been a longstanding plan amongst the GNU/Patriots to rewrite everything in LISP since the 1980s
this plan is scheduled to go into full force in 2029 when it is projected that 93% of the packages in the debian archives will just be various shitty rust crates for printing ansi terminal escapes to stdout

 

[analrapist]

there has actually been a longstanding plan amongst the GNU/Patriots to rewrite everything in LISP since the 1980s

When Emacs switches to Guile I might bother with it. But yes, different tentacles. I wouldn't worry too much about GNU conspiracies. We're in one.