Pokémon (Not-So) Griefing Thread - Scarlet and Violet Released with 10 Million Copies in First 3 Days in Buggy States

[Executive Petrel]

It's Poever.

https://archive.is/pPvGV

View attachment 6460301View attachment 6460302

Remember that episode was banned?
Yeah right

 

[Hiphopopotamus]

Remember that episode was banned?
Yeah right

View attachment 6461393

I remember when there was basically no information about this episode outside of Japan, so I found it and made a few gifs I posted on 4chan way back then.

Spoiler

 

[Registration]

@Lizard Machine Bugs

So you want to play a worse version of the game? Let me five you one example:

This is a gen 3 hack, with modern mechanics.

See this screen? AI have a swampert that knows earthquake and surf. In the original gen 3 games, Surf was overpowered and it was the best move in the game. In the double battles it would hit only the two enemies in front of it. After gen 4, it would also hit your own pokémon. So now you have a layer of choice here. In this very game I usually start with Talonflame alongside Swampert. Since he is a flying type, he can avoid Earthquake and is generally faster than swampert. So I have two choices: I can choose to go with earthquake and damage my enemies and talonflame is free, or I can use surf. Talonflame is a fire type too, so he can die if I hit hard enough.

Do you see how this changes balance the game more? Swampert is so overpowered compared to Sceptile and Blaziken in gen 3 it isn't even fair. Now by reintroducing this addition to an older game (gen 3), the move is balanced better than it was before (literal zero motives to use Muddy Water)

In this very screenshot that you are seeing, if it wasn't a mega charizard (types dragon and fire), my rockslide would deal 4x damage to his ace pokemon.

By retroactively introducing mechanics, you create better game experiences. If you go a few pages back, when I was talking about the Sword and Shield GBA games that uses the gigantamax. That shield mechanic was quite annoying but in a good way. For the first time in a pokemon game, wild pokemon would be harder to fight since it introduced a timing mechanic to break its shield instead of just being a piss poor attempt. It took me my entire team just to beat a single pokemon.

It is an improvement mechanic, even better than mega that sometimes is just press to win.

In gen 1, the quicker a pokémon was, the easiest it was to crit. There were no abilities or itens to hold, changes that absolutely improves the game.

We shouldn't introduce someone to play pokemon RGB vanilla nowadays because: it is a bad game overall and there are improvements and better options.

Pokémon games are easy, I am not talking about difficulty hacks here, I am talking about giving more options for you choose.

In vanilla GSC, I always defaulted to starter/ampharos/another shitter because it was all that took to win, the other options were either locked out to a stupidly easy postgame or already leveled up shitters.

Usually dragon pokemon are really weak at their start and when fully evolved they becomes beasts. But did you ever realize that they are usually found in the later part of the game? Instead of the beginning where you struggle with it most of the game and becomes stronger in the later part of it.

And this is just one aspect of how gimped the games become with the years, by adering to early tradition out of limitation.

One example: I played pokemon black for the first time last week, instead of the normal game, I played the Drayano Blaze Black. In the first route, instead of just the normal route bird, I could get anyone that I wanted. I picked one that I never used before. But the choice was MINE TO MAKE. Not GF.

"Ah but the original experience"

This doesn't exist anymore. You vant use the GBC internet features, the event or the reader in GBA, the GSM mode in Nintendo DS, the pokewalker in HGSS and so on. We dont get access to the original experience in any way if you play the vanilla games nowadays, so why not to experience an upgraded form?

The problem of GF original games isn't the gimmicks that they introduce, is that they drop it a game later.

I quite liked the triple battles where positioning could help you win or lose a fight, I liked the rotating battles. Double battles that appeared in the third gen created lota of options to older pokemon that were shitters then and became something else later.

My first pokémon game (Ruby), I won by only using and leveling Sceptile at lvl 80. That is how braindead it was. This very hack rom of Silver, by having the first 8 gyms to be singles and later becomes doubles battles shows how easy I would be destroyed if I played the same strategy back then. Since speed can absolutely win battles

 

[Coldsteel the Hedgehog]

You could say the same in inverse, though—why use camerupt when mega charizard exists? Or use off type moves now that shadow ball uses gengar's special stat?

Strategy isn't just about in the moment choices, it's also about team building, resourcefulness, and planning. Limitations breed creativity and can make for more interesting experiences. Not everyone is interested in the same experience, and to some the team building aspects of earlier generations are more enjoyable than playing a poor man's VGC.

I like playing games with the regions native pokemon, I think it's fun to explore the dex and immerses me on the region. Games should celebrate their regions and what they bring, it gives them identity. If you're going to play through Kanto without a single Kanto mon on your team, then why the hell are you even playing in that region? Dex and mechanic choice is just as much of a regions identity as the cities and gym leaders.

 

[I_Lurk_Here]

I remember when there was basically no information about this episode outside of Japan, so I found it and made a few gifs I posted on 4chan way back then.

Spoiler

View attachment 6461496

How long ago did you do this? You still have them saved on your PC?

 

[Registration]

You could say the same in inverse, though—why use camerupt when mega charizard exists? Or use off type moves now that shadow ball uses gengar's special stat?

Strategy isn't just about in the moment choices, it's also about team building, resourcefulness, and planning. Limitations breed creativity and can make for more interesting experiences. Not everyone is interested in the same experience, and to some the team building aspects of earlier generations are more enjoyable than playing a poor man's VGC.

I like playing games with the regions native pokemon, I think it's fun to explore the dex and immerses me on the region. Games should celebrate their regions and what they bring, it gives them identity. Dex and mechanic choice is just as much of a regions identity as the cities and gym leaders.

"If you're going to play through Kanto without a single Kanto mon on your team, then why the hell are you even playing in that region?"

Ask GF when they released GSC.

Giving the player options to pick is always better than limiting the player. In pokemon BW, the first gym uses a type that is stronger than your own starter. They give you a pokemon that is stronger to facilitate your battle. I didn't use it because I hate monkeys, so I had more options to choice other than offered in the base game. It was a harder fight since it was a hack.

The TMs are a great example of it: by making them unlimited use, you can mix the usage and experience the moves, since you can change it back. In the original gen 3, when it is a single use, I usually don't use until late game (near the league), since the low PP doesn't allow me to travel and kill the mobs and trainers in the routes. By limiting the use, I have to make choices not out of desire but out of necessity and convenience.

And in the end, sometimes you don't even use the item. I have a rule that I will only use max revive in the E4 since it is a rare resource that the only difference is a single turn to the normal revive on the shop.

It is quite frequent the amount of resources that I collect to not even use because of their scarcity in the game.

When I played Blaze Black, I knew nothing about the E4 and their teams, I couldn't plan since there was zero context and information in the game to explore it. Guess which trainer gave me the most trouble? shauntal and her ghosts, she countered my team hard, so after I realized that I would lose it, I used moves that would allow me to take a peek on her team and gather info then use the unlimited tms to win against her.

This was a fair game unlike azure platinum where the fights weren't fair, since neutral moves would oneshot you regardless because of speed and power.

Giving the player options regardless of where the pokémon generation is always proved to be a better idea. Do you remember the DP dex and how little options you had when comparing to platinum?

How most teams in DP across different players were the same pokémons since there were barely any option to choose in those games.

One of the my personal rules to pokémon is to experience new pokemons to use. You can absolutely beat a normal vanilla game with 1 or 2 pokemon. Then at max you have a 6 rooster out of 80-150. It is better go have variety of choices than just limit yourself to the same regional insect/regional mammal/regional bird + starter by the first gym.

 

[Lizard Machine Bugs]

So you want to play a worse version of the game? Let me five you one example:

This is a gen 3 hack, with modern mechanics.

See this screen? AI have a swampert that knows earthquake and surf. In the original gen 3 games, Surf was overpowered and it was the best move in the game. In the double battles it would hit only the two enemies in front of it. After gen 4, it would also hit your own pokémon. So now you have a layer of choice here. In this very game I usually start with Talonflame alongside Swampert. Since he is a flying type, he can avoid Earthquake and is generally faster than swampert. So I have two choices: I can choose to go with earthquake and damage my enemies and talonflame is free, or I can use surf. Talonflame is a fire type too, so he can die if I hit hard enough.

Do you see how this changes balance the game more? Swampert is so overpowered compared to Sceptile and Blaziken in gen 3 it isn't even fair. Now by reintroducing this addition to an older game (gen 3), the move is balanced better than it was before (literal zero motives to use Muddy Water)

I wouldn't consider Surf being really strong bad, I like it being strong since it means I don't have to run a dead move on my team and double battles are infrequent enough that it not hitting allies is only a minor upside most of the time. I also don't really mind it's nerf one way or the other, although it hitting allies can lead to interesting team building so I don't have a problem with it being backported to past gens. It only affects Gen 3 anyways and I wouldn't consider Surf not hitting allies to be something core to Gen 3s identity like the lack of physical special split.
I don't understand why you're giving me a play-by play of your playthrough though, any difficulty hack or even the base games can have interesting game play sometimes.

In this very screenshot that you are seeing, if it wasn't a mega charizard (types dragon and fire), my rockslide would deal 4x damage to his ace pokemon.

By retroactively introducing mechanics, you create better game experiences. If you go a few pages back, when I was talking about the Sword and Shield GBA games that uses the gigantamax. That shield mechanic was quite annoying but in a good way. For the first time in a pokemon game, wild pokemon would be harder to fight since it introduced a timing mechanic to break its shield instead of just being a piss poor attempt. It took me my entire team just to beat a single pokemon.

It is an improvement mechanic, even better than mega that sometimes is just press to win.

In gen 1, the quicker a pokémon was, the easiest it was to crit. There were no abilities or itens to hold, changes that absolutely improves the game.

We shouldn't introduce someone to play pokemon RGB vanilla nowadays because: it is a bad game overall and there are improvements and better options.

Pokémon games are easy, I am not talking about difficulty hacks here, I am talking about giving more options for you choose.

In vanilla GSC, I always defaulted to starter/ampharos/another shitter because it was all that took to win, the other options were either locked out to a stupidly easy postgame or already leveled up shitters.

Usually dragon pokemon are really weak at their start and when fully evolved they becomes beasts. But did you ever realize that they are usually found in the later part of the game? Instead of the beginning where you struggle with it most of the game and becomes stronger in the later part of it.

I mean, I already said I don't like Megas, but yes this is a game state caused by Megas. But if you just want a dragon type charizard you can hack gen 3 or even 1 to have a dragon type charizard, plenty of hacks have done it and I'm running a dragon type Charizard in my Volt White 2 Reduz Nuzlocke right now. But Megas creating a interesting game state isn't something only they can do and honestly I'm not fond of Megas as a mechanic. I don't like that so few pokemon got them, and I think they're over-centralizing, I don't want to have to run a pokemon specifically as my mega-evolving ace and I think it limits team building, especially if the game is balanced around you having a mega evolving ace.

I also don't think crit chance being tied to speed, there being no hold items or abilities is a good or bad thing. It's just a thing and pokemon in gen 1 are balanced around that. Is the balance great, is the game perfect, does it have bugs. No, no, and yes, but I'd rather have gen 1 pokemon rebalanced within the frame work of gen 1 then them turned into something entirely differently. FRLG is kind of a boring middle ground to me since it adds nothing content wise and adapting the gen 1 pokemon to gen 3 is just, okay-ish I guess, but it's not stand out and a lot of the really good pokemon in gen 1 are still the best picks in gen 3.

Also I agree that dragon pokemon should show up earlier, but they still show up later in the newer gens anyways and I don't consider than a new gen feature of polluting the identity of the old games, especially since it keeps with the themes of the series and some of the messages it tries to implant in the player.

And this is just one aspect of how gimped the games become with the years, by adering to early tradition out of limitation.

One example: I played pokemon black for the first time last week, instead of the normal game, I played the Drayano Blaze Black. In the first route, instead of just the normal route bird, I could get anyone that I wanted. I picked one that I never used before. But the choice was MINE TO MAKE. Not GF.

"Ah but the original experience"

This doesn't exist anymore. You vant use the GBC internet features, the event or the reader in GBA, the GSM mode in Nintendo DS, the pokewalker in HGSS and so on. We dont get access to the original experience in any way if you play the vanilla games nowadays, so why not to experience an upgraded form?

The problem of GF original games isn't the gimmicks that they introduce, is that they drop it a game later.

I quite liked the triple battles where positioning could help you win or lose a fight, I liked the rotating battles. Double battles that appeared in the third gen created lota of options to older pokemon that were shitters then and became something else later.

My first pokémon game (Ruby), I won by only using and leveling Sceptile at lvl 80. That is how braindead it was. This very hack rom of Silver, by having the first 8 gyms to be singles and later becomes doubles battles shows how easy I would be destroyed if I played the same strategy back then. Since speed can absolutely win battles

Oh your a fan of Drayano as well? Great, I hope he posts Aurora Crystal soon, or at least within the next year I'm tired of waiting. Not a fan of everything in his hacks, especially in his gen 5 ones since by that point I think dex bloat is in full affect, around 300~ pokemon before the post game is my personal ideal.
But my problems come less with adulterting the original experience since the original experience is flawed, almost no pokemon game has ever released or been remade with the initial vision. Heck Green was a manga only character for the longest time despite having a counterpart in the beta and concept art of the first generation, and I think every pokemon game could use an improved story.
I don't play online and never used the pokewalker since I've never legitimately bought a pokemon game so I don't have an opinion on them. I guess I saw some friends use them when I was younger but I don't really care to talk about them, I don't play Smogon or Showdown either.
Triple battles are nice but IMO they feel out of place in the first four gens, VW2R has some hard ones though like damn that pair of toddlers before you fight Colress and his fakemon is hard as fuck, way harder than the Colress fight itself.
Like what is their mother even feeding them, little monsters.

 

[Hiphopopotamus]

How long ago did you do this? You still have them saved on your PC?

Over 10 years ago, I just made those two and another kf won't let me upload for some reason.
This one: https://files.catbox.moe/8lyayp.GIF
Edit: For some reason it did upload as an attachment but I can't insert it.

 

[Caesar]

Remember that episode was banned?
Yeah right

View attachment 6461393

...and even James here is about 16, canonically.

 

[Registration]

@Lizard Machine Bugs

I disagree about your idea of "polluting the identity of the old games". Because that is just insincere.

The old games are badly constructed. That is a fact. Even my favorite ones have flaws that are improved in later games and even their third games. One example of a bad mechanic is HM moves. Those are and will always be terrible, the function is to work as a roadblock to the player but ends up being as a bothersome anchor to your own team building decision.

The moment a hack removes it ferom the game by whatever way, it is a straight up improvement, because now you have more options.

Other bad feature of gen 1: limited backpack and without a separation tabs. Those are straight up improvements in later games. The more you see, things that can be called QoL feature are just improving the game by altering its shitty framework.

One of the features I hate the most in the first gen and the remakes is the Pokedex. I have to capture pokémon not because I want to, I have to capture it because I would be locked of the rest of the game since there are aides that have itens locked under certain pokemon catch (not seen like posterior gens)

And when you see gen 5. With features built on the past games but straight up improvements one after another.

This idea of identity of the old games is bullshit in case of hacks, not remakes because in the end of the day. The official version is just a worse product than the altered version. And the fan's work have more effort in it to make it shine brighter.

By changing and altering the old games, you get a better game, not mattering the identity of it. Because the game isn't a piece of conceptual work of art. It is a product that had to make cuts and changes into what was possible at that time within their budget/time constraint.

RGB had lots of cut pokemon and it was indeed supposed to have a female protagonist. A hack putting it back in with other features will make it a better end result.

My first Pokemon Black experience was the Drayano hack, just like my White 2 will also be the redux version in the future. I dont need to even know what GF intended to do with their games originally back in the 2012 with this game when there is a better option TODAY. a better game already exists at this moment.

"Ah but it isnt official, as originally intended, this and that".

The "official", original, whatever you want to say is just a void concept.

The biggest example of it being just a void concept is the BDSP remakes, that instead of using the platinum changes in the game, went with the original games. Which were just worse.

And the fact that GF already "fixes" their own games with a third version, having fans to do the same to improve the games already makes it fine.

 

[XL xQgg?QcQCaTYDMjqoDnYpG]

having fans to do the same to improve the games already makes it fine.

I agree with the logic and principles of your argument, but at the same time something feels wrong. I think you might be overlooking design consistency.
The example that comes to mind for me is mods in Fallout New Vegas (and 3) that allow the player to sprint. Sprinting or running (faster than jogging) is not an ability the player natively has in these games. From friends I've seen play with such mods installed, combat, especially melee combat, and in-location (like, in-town) navigation and traversal completely breaks down and is radically different and alien compared to the native game.
The point is, some things may be objectively improvements, but if the rest of the game was not designed for such improvements to be there, then the experience is fundamentally alien.

 

[Registration]

I agree with the logic and principles of your argument, but at the same time something feels wrong. I think you might be overlooking design consistency.
The example that comes to mind for me is mods in Fallout New Vegas (and 3) that allow the player to sprint. Sprinting or running (faster than jogging) is not an ability the player natively has in these games. From friends I've seen play with such mods installed, combat, especially melee combat, and in-location (like, in-town) navigation and traversal completely breaks down and is radically different and alien compared to the native game.
The point is, some things may be objectively improvements, but if the rest of the game was not designed for such improvements to be there, then the experience is fundamentally alien.

But the idea of design consistency in pokémon games are already broken in the first place.

Take the sea routes in hoenn, you are going to find wingulls, pelipper and tentacools. That is it. So pokémon like relicanth (that could've been an 1% enconter or wailmers, wailords, huntails, gorebyss, corphishs, crawdaunts.

You have all these pokémon that you are just not using at all.

We have an E4 Member that has two repeats when Shedinja is in the game already but you only find it in battle tower or frontier.

And in case of fallout, even outside the context of fallout itself but bethesda games. If you mod the game to have a better experience and enjoy it more. Does it even matter what the native game was intended?

The first time I ever played a Castlevania game, it was a modified version of Aria of Soul. This version fixed translations, gameplay bugs, altered weapons that werent working as the devs wanted.

In a world where modding exists, no matter the field, be art, games, cars, tools, the end user will always be more important and what they want and how he will deal with it will matter more than the original intent or version. You have gay flags in your spider-man game? Here, mod it to USA flags. You want Jill vallentine with big cowprint bikinis model? Here, have fun. Do you want to read a book by just reading the odd or even pages. Go for it.

In a world where we can achieve this possibilities to alter a game/book/product the original/desired intent is void.

The best example for it is the star wars special edition vs original version. Which side is right? Both are right, but it isn't in your hands anymore, George, you have no Power to dictate how someone will watch the film.

 

[Coldsteel the Hedgehog]

@Registration

Those changes are completely different from what is being discussed, though. Doing things like placing native pokemon in more routes, or making inventory management nicer is one thing-- what's different is completely revamping base mechanics in a way that the rest of the game is simply unable to account for. The physical/special split is a really good example of this; implemented blindly completely fucking destroys the balance of the campaign and ruins a lot of trainer teams that were designed with the pre-split stats in mind.

And like XL said, somethings feel alien even if they're not objectively bad. I don't care how empty Hoenn's sea routes are, putting palafin there will feel completely out of place and weird. The player's enjoyment being important is cool and something I do usually agree with, but romhacks are different than modding a game. You don't get to pick and choose what parts of a romhack you install. They are a fanproject being made and presented to players as a complete product in and of itself, in which case yes, criticism of them and their designs is valid and warranted.

 

[Lizard Machine Bugs]

I disagree about your idea of "polluting the identity of the old games". Because that is just insincere.

The old games are badly constructed. That is a fact. Even my favorite ones have flaws that are improved in later games and even their third games. One example of a bad mechanic is HM moves. Those are and will always be terrible, the function is to work as a roadblock to the player but ends up being as a bothersome anchor to your own team building decision.

The moment a hack removes it ferom the game by whatever way, it is a straight up improvement, because now you have more options.

I mean, I'm sorry if my taste and opinions about rom hacks feels insincere to you but those are my sincere feelings on the matter. Also HM are a mixed bag for me, I like the concept of using your own pokemon to explore the world but often the amount of them required and the moves themselves being bad. My ideal is there to be less than a handful and for them to be good moves, although I can see why you'd prefer the HM equivalents from newer generations.
I don't really seek ultimate freedom in games, and in that same vain, nor do I inherently value more options. Generally I prefer restrictions within reason and have to be creative and make do with the tools I've been given.

Other bad feature of gen 1: limited backpack and without a separation tabs. Those are straight up improvements in later games. The more you see, things that can be called QoL feature are just improving the game by altering its shitty framework.

One of the features I hate the most in the first gen and the remakes is the Pokedex. I have to capture pokémon not because I want to, I have to capture it because I would be locked of the rest of the game since there are aides that have itens locked under certain pokemon catch (not seen like posterior gens)

And when you see gen 5. With features built on the past games but straight up improvements one after another.

I agree, about the back packs slots thing, but I also don't get why your bringing it up. Gen 1 doesn't really have any strong resource management element and none of the other games really developed on that possible idea, it's interesting I won't lie but also something I'm not really interested in. But I don't mind things being locked behind catching pokemon in the first Gen, it is about catching them all, although it could be made easier.

This idea of identity of the old games is bullshit in case of hacks, not remakes because in the end of the day. The official version is just a worse product than the altered version. And the fan's work have more effort in it to make it shine brighter.

By changing and altering the old games, you get a better game, not mattering the identity of it. Because the game isn't a piece of conceptual work of art. It is a product that had to make cuts and changes into what was possible at that time within their budget/time constraint.

Eh, it's a prefrence thing. But still as somebody's first experince to gen 1 or the Kanto region something more vanilla is better imo. While it's primarily a game and a lot of people just use FRLG as a vehicle for something that either alters Kanto to the point I find it unrecognizable or an entirely new region, which I do think is better than the previous option. Changing something doesn't automatically make it better, I for one consider Megas a downgrade and don't like them in roms of previous gens or in offical products like the Let's Go games.

RGB had lots of cut pokemon and it was indeed supposed to have a female protagonist. A hack putting it back in with other features will make it a better end result.

My first Pokemon Black experience was the Drayano hack, just like my White 2 will also be the redux version in the future. I dont need to even know what GF intended to do with their games originally back in the 2012 with this game when there is a better option TODAY. a better game already exists at this moment.

"Ah but it isnt official, as originally intended, this and that".

The "official", original, whatever you want to say is just a void concept.

The biggest example of it being just a void concept is the BDSP remakes, that instead of using the platinum changes in the game, went with the original games. Which were just worse.

And the fact that GF already "fixes" their own games with a third version, having fans to do the same to improve the games already makes it fine.

I mean yeah, my problem with BDSP is the same problem I have with FRLG, they're too faithful and end up not doing anything. But I don't get why're you bringing this up as this is either stuff I've complained about, in the same vain as it, or literally something I said I like. I.E Green being in gen 1 because she was an unimplemented beta concept and is something I think is in the spirit of the original games.
But I have to disagree about the design intent not being important, if you just ignore the design intent of the games I think that's missing the point of a pseudo-remake and doesn't make for a good introduction to the series for a newcomer. Besides it's important to understand the original intent of a product so you can see where it went wrong and make changes as needed in order to improve on it, but if you just end up porting everything haphazardly from future gen not understanding the intent you'll end up with a mess.
That's not to say everything that ports from future gens is bad, Radical Red is quite good even if it's not my cup of tea and I like Drayano's hacks even if I don't like every change he tends to make.
I have nothing against pseudo-remakes, but when it's all said and done I'd rather recognize my favorite pokemon as themselves and the regions I like as those respective regions. But that's just the flavor of pseudo-remake I prefer.

 

[Punished Brent]

I like the pokemon from the first 3 gens best but they really did improve the battling mechanics over time. I don't think you could pay me to play a game from before the special split anymore

 

[Registration]

@Registration

Those changes are completely different from what is being discussed, though. Doing things like placing native pokemon in more routes, or making inventory management nicer is one thing-- what's different is completely revamping base mechanics in a way that the rest of the game is simply unable to account for. The physical/special split is a really good example of this; implemented blindly completely fucking destroys the balance of the campaign and ruins a lot of trainer teams that were designed with the pre-split stats in mind.

And like XL said, somethings feel alien even if they're not objectively bad. I don't care how empty Hoenn's sea routes are, putting palafin there will feel completely out of place and weird. The player's enjoyment being important is cool and something I do usually agree with, but romhacks are different than modding a game. They are a fanproject being made and presented to players as a complete product in and of itself, in which case yes, criticism of them and their designs is valid and warranted.

So sea routes having tentacool is fine since it is from an early gen but if a hack does with a pokemon from later gen then it is weird? How is a tentacool any different from just a random fish pokemon? This sounds like bullshit.

"what's different is completely revamping base mechanics in a way that the rest of the game is simply unable to account for."

And here is the thing, the original games. DOESN'T DO THIS AT ALL. If you want to pick just a single pokémon and overlevel it, you can easily beat the game, there is nothing stopping the player. In FRLG there is an item called VS Seeker that allows you to rematch trainers. Lets say you want to buy a TM from the cassino without playing the coin game, so you spam the vs seeker, beats trainers, get more money, gets overleveled and get the TM.

What does the original game do to correct this? Literally nothing.

What does modern hack roms do to prevebt this: level caps mechanics, level scaling with your highest level, less experience with already overleveled pokemons and so on.

You guys want an experience that was never real, you talk like the original games have all these modern mechanics buy it straight up never existed before being hacked into it.

"You don't get to pick and choose what parts of a romhack you install."

Except we live in a world where it really is the case. Just an example of even in game the options already are more fullfiling than before.

Most modern hacks just straight up ask you: what changes you want be it in game or the patch version that you want. Do you want a nuzlocke mode? Do you want a randomizer? Do you want reverse types? And so on.

"They are a fanproject being made and presented to players as a complete product in and of itself, in which case yes, criticism of them and their designs is valid and warranted.

Yes. just like I criticized Azure Platinum, but these criticisms serve a purpose, right? We live in an world where we can get an emerald seaglass 1.3 with fixes, new additions requested by players and the community, and these changes could be implemented in the rom by the creator. Pokemon Brown received updates 20 years later, a gbc game.

Now understanding this, did GF ever improved the same game with a something easily fixable like pokemon stats, locations and moves? Of course not. And if a fan does improve it. Why even bother with the inferior version at all?

@Lizard Machine Bugs you sound really indecisive, what the fuck do you really want? A remake that does the same shit or not? In no possible way RGB are better than FRLG. Why? Because they improved the game. And it is the same with DP in relation to BDSP. It is a remake that still fixes the problem of the original games, the difference between the two remakes, is that we have a third option in platinum case, that came after DP, so we have this to compare both DP to it and also BDSP.

So we have this remake called platinum that improves the base game. The original intent (DP) was fucking shit, and GF fixed later. Just like fans can fix games later with mods and hacks.

So let me ask you one thing: do you think the games are too slow? If you could play the games at 400% speed, would this go against their original intent because it wasn't made that way?

 

[Registration]

Let me showcase some examples:
See this battlescreen? Notice how the flying is green? This game alters the color to indicate how effective the move will be. Andnyou have different degrees of how effective it will be.

Here, a normal ghost move will do nothing against this normal pokemon and it is indicated by the colors.

In this other hack, they will showcase you the pokémon type as you press the battle button, but without any indication.

The same goes for the dexnav featured in later games

All these features never existed in the original games of gen 3.

So lets say a new pokemon played picked the game to play. What do you think it is the better approach for him to understand the gameplay. These indicators or just trying any move or having this table near him.

(And this is a modern type chart)

All these features never existed in the original games of gen 3 that were modified into much simpler and better gameplay features.


Every time I have to fight this fat fuck, I have no clue about which type it is: poison, fairy, rock, fossil, whatever the fuck it is.

And a New played will have no indication also in older games.

As for the "original intent" and how shitty it can be:

Trade evolutions.

Zero lore, no meaning at all and just cumbersome to do.

You catch an Abra, then you train it and when you give it away for other player for it to become alakazam. And if you want it back, then you have to trade it back (and we are talking about GB days, when you have to be there), if it was a GTS back in NDS days, you could get fucked and never see it again.

Jesus, what a retarded idea. Thank god hack roms changed it to be either: normal leveling it up, use the hold item to trade as a stone, use a new item to make a trade with yourself.

And this isn't even a case of exclusive to game X or Y. It is just a retarded decision.

 

[Coldsteel the Hedgehog]

@Registration

I feel like you're missing my point, here, so I'll clarify.

1. It's not about new vs old, it's about thematic and design cohesion. What I would like to see would be to relocate and show off pokemon from the native regions in their own game to preserve that. Instead of adding palafin or barraskewda, why not show us relicanth? Chinchou, lantern -- Hoenn has so many water types that you could put in these routes before resorting to outside regions. Tentacool isn't okay because its old, it's okay because it is already a pokemon native to Hoenn. I like regions have specific dexes, playing within those dexes is part of what makes the experience unique. I think it is something worth preserving.

2. These patch options are not encompassing enough to change my stance. Nuzlocke mode and type reversal is completely different than things like altering gym leader teams, level curves, wild pokemon encounters, etc. They are customizeable experiences, but they are still intended to be that, an experience. This is okay! It just makes it different than, say, modding skyrim.

3. Regarding your other points, we're speaking past each other. As I've said multiple times, QoL changes like type indicators and HM removal are completely different from altering the core experience of a game. I'm not saying vanilla games are perfect. What I am saying is that the vanilla games intended to curate a specific experience and energy when playing them, and undue changes to that can have unintended consequences that ruin that experience and energy.

You are talking about these games from an efficiency viewpoint, and I am not. I don't care if the game doesn't stop me from overleveling because I don't do that, my enjoyment is not derived from minmaxing my way through the campaign. I have no idea why you are so insistent on it being some crippling flaw by Game Freak that the games, gasp, let you play them how you want to. Who fucking cares if the games let me overlevl? I just box the mon until they're not anymore. I don't need the game to have self control for me.

 

[McMitch]

Trade evolutions.

Zero lore, no meaning at all and just cumbersome to do.

Trade evolutions could easily be labeled the gimmick of Gen I, considering the very idea of trading was novel at the time. They were done to both facilitate the necessity of trading, because Game Freak never assumed people would buy an entire second GameBoy for this game, and to add depth to the mechanic.

 

[Registration]

"thematic and design cohesion"

Pokemon ecology isn't well defined enough for it to be relevant for the game purpose. What makes you think that Chinchou is native from Johto other than it was first available in Johto game? Does the Pokedex entries make statements about the origin of Chinchou? No. If the choice can go from a generation from before, why not do a later? A gen 7 fish will be stopped by a magical barrier in the ses that doesn't allow it to traverse into hoenn? There is no human bringing in pokemon? No unidentified species

There isn't cohesion at all. The stantler had an evolution in the Legend Arceus game that was years before johto. Yet it wasn't present in GSC games. Does it break the thematic and design cohesion to insert it in a previous game when the only reason to not, is that it simply didn't existed back then? If a hack dev creates all unova regional variants of pokemon and insert in a hoenn game, how is it any different from GF to do the exactly the same? Your argument is built on something as flimsy.

If you create a hack that has original region, original story, original pokémon but it is in a gen 3 engine with megas, gigantamax and whatever features they want, your argument evaporates.

"completely different from altering the core experience of a game. "

Dude. The battles are the most important part of the game and where you spent the most active part as a player. Any alteration that affects it slightly is altering the core experience of the game. If I dont have to have a HM slave in my team, this changes the whole battle and my choice as a player. If I know which move to use against an enemy, this alters the way to play the game drastically, because it removes factors like guesses and random choices.

If you think for a second that these changes are just QoL improvements and it is at the same level to not activate the running shoes by press B, you are literally insane.

"intended to curate a specific experience and energy when playing them, and undue changes to that can have unintended consequences that ruin that experience and energy."

And how can you say that it is a good thing? How many experiences the devs intended for you to have? 1, 2, 3 or 4? How many times you play the same game until you get bored? Lets use pokemon Crystal Clear as an example. 8 gyms that you can pick the order and the game scale all the undefeated gyms for you as you go? How many possibilities there are? How many pokemon can you use in different contexts by just altering the order in the same game? First Gym and you are fighting claire. You last will be bugsy. The combinations of it. "Ah but the story gets altered by playing this hack" do you play pokemon for the story?

We aren't talking about first impressions of the game here, until someone learn the existence of hacks and altered roms, they are probably someone who played before and understand what they are looking for.

In johto games, the first wild pokémon in the route after the Claire 8 gym battle is lvl 22. This is the supposed "specific experience and energy" curated and cared by gamefreak devs? Fuck off it is.

I am not talking about making pokémon another game that it isn't. We are not making it like ranger or mystery dungeon. We are talking about taking already existing features and improving something that lacks it.

So lets make it clear: you accept whatever slop gamefreak delivered twenty years ago, and will defend it in the >supposed< intent idea of design and consistency (lol) that in early gens crawled at the mud, then it reached a peak around gen 5-6, then it fell off for other reasons not related to the most important part of the game (battle, that is clearly better than early gens)

Just answer me this: what is the best pokemon game you ever played. Not your favorite nor your first, it can be a hacked rom or a fan game in rpg maker. What is it?

This isn't about efficiency, it is about being a better game. Azure Platinum was a game that I criticezed that had many QoL features and efficient to the point where there was zero grinding.

Trade evolutions could easily be labeled the gimmick of Gen I, considering the very idea of trading was novel at the time. They were done to both facilitate the necessity of trading, because Game Freak never assumed people would buy an entire second GameBoy for this game, and to add depth to the mechanic.

You could suppose it is, the problem is that unlike other better gimmicks, this one is still in the game.

I dunno how it works in other spinoff games like ranger or go, how do evolve pokemon that uses trade in their original games as an evolution mechanic.