Pseudoscience - Anti Vaxxers, Creationists, Anti Nuclear/GM fanatics, and other charlatans.

There are scientific issues with evolution. There are a number of holes in the evidence that many scientists hope will be filled with future study. It would not be unfair to say that evolution has become the prevailing theory partly because science has yet to provide a viable alternative theory.

This is not an argument in favor of creationism, nor should creationism (or intelligent design) be considered as a viable alternative to evolution. Maybe finding a "middle ground" between evolution and creationism is counterproductive, but evolution as a concept isn't above scrutiny.

To be succinct (too late) finding and evaluating alternative theories is good science, and something needed in evolutionary studies.
 
There are scientific issues with evolution. There are a number of holes in the evidence that many scientists hope will be filled with future study. It would not be unfair to say that evolution has become the prevailing theory partly because science has yet to provide a viable alternative theory.

This is not an argument in favor of creationism, nor should creationism (or intelligent design) be considered as a viable alternative to evolution. Maybe finding a "middle ground" between evolution and creationism is counterproductive, but evolution as a concept isn't above scrutiny.

To be succinct (too late) finding and evaluating alternative theories is good science, and something needed in evolutionary studies.

Nothing is above scrutiny, but evolution works best based on what we know. If we find new evidence that changes some or all of this then we change it, but unless we do it is the theory that best fits what we know.
 
Nothing is above scrutiny, but evolution works best based on what we know. If we find new evidence that changes some or all of this then we change it, but unless we do it is the theory that best fits what we know.

I'm just trying to point out that there's more out there that we don't know, and we won't learn it without challenging our existing theory. It's a big problem that every challenge to evolution get filed under "creationist whack job work". There are real challenges to be made and the creationists are getting in the damned way.
 
I'm just trying to point out that there's more out there that we don't know, and we won't learn it without challenging our existing theory. It's a big problem that every challenge to evolution get filed under "creationist whack job work". There are real challenges to be made and the creationists are getting in the damned way.

Science is always challenging itself in order to gain new information and refine old ways of thinking. Evolution has stood the test of time for more than a century because it has extremely great evidentiary support. It has more evidence than gravity. Its still falsifiable however and can be overturned, but because we know so much about it, its very unlikely to happen. If someone did however find verifiably accurate objective evidence that goes against Evolution, than science would gladly change to include it because science isn't dogmatic where nothing can't be questioned.
 
Science is always challenging itself in order to gain new information and refine old ways of thinking. Evolution has stood the test of time for more than a century because it has extremely great evidentiary support. It has more evidence than gravity. Its still falsifiable however and can be overturned, but because we know so much about it, its very unlikely to happen. If someone did however find verifiably accurate objective evidence that goes against Evolution, than science would gladly change to include it because science isn't dogmatic where nothing can't be questioned.

This.
 
Science is always challenging itself in order to gain new information and refine old ways of thinking. Evolution has stood the test of time for more than a century because it has extremely great evidentiary support. It has more evidence than gravity. Its still falsifiable however and can be overturned, but because we know so much about it, its very unlikely to happen. If someone did however find verifiably accurate objective evidence that goes against Evolution, than science would gladly change to include it because science isn't dogmatic where nothing can't be questioned.

Precisely.
 
Who the fuck can even argue evolution. Fossils are like, the biggest indication there is no God in the Christian sense. How is anyone supposed to believe that a God would create dinosaurs, kill them, bury the bones under layers and layers of sedimentary shelves, each indicating a different time of progression and adaption? It's mind blowingly stupid. More than that, it's just cowardly and lazy. If you believe in the Christian version of God, you are simply afraid of death and can't persevere with the knowledge that you're an insignificant speck in the universe, a mote of dust in a giant's eye. Meanwhile progression in human civilization is stemmied because of people like this. People that cling whole heartedly to the belief that some make believe figure is guiding their lives. Were you raped? They'll stand outside an abortion clinic and call you a murderer. Have a terrible incurable disease? Too fucking bad, deal with it, stem cell research hurts their imaginary man's feelings and you'll just have to pray you get better and regrow your organs back. Christianity, once the only salvation of knowledge for western civilization (IE; monasteries during the Dark Ages) is now the antithesis of everything we could be doing right in the world. Complete ass backwards loonies.
 
There are scientific issues with evolution.
No. Not really.

Certainly there are some observations in evolution that have yet to be completely explained, but those are not issues with the observed fact of evolution itself. Over time groups of organisms modify into different, novel groups of organisms. This has been directly observed in controlled breeding in the short term (where millenia count as "short"), in embryology, in the fossil record over the long term, in genetic sequencing, and in so many other fields too numerous to list.

tl;dr: Evolution happens. Just like gravity happens. Deal with it.
There are a number of holes in the evidence that many scientists hope will be filled with future study.
Certainly there are gaps in the fossil record, but those don't disprove the observation that evolution happens. Claiming such would be like claiming gravity doesn't happen because you aren't watching apples fall from trees in Antarctica right now. Gaps in our observations of evolution are no more valid for making arguments against it than gaps in our observation of gravitation.
It would not be unfair to say that evolution has become the prevailing theory partly because science has yet to provide a viable alternative theory.
But evolution is not the prevailing theory. Because it's not a theory. It's an observation. Natural Selection, modified by punctuated equilibrium, gene transfer, gene drift, and so on, is the prevailing theory explaining the observed fact of evolution. And natural selection (modified by punctuated equilibrium etc.) is the prevailing theory because so far it is the absolute best, most tested, proven theory explaining evolution. In fact it is such a good theory for explaining evolution that people (including scientists who should know better) mistakenly conflate it with evolution itself.
Maybe finding a "middle ground" between evolution and creationism is counterproductive,
A middle ground between anything and creationism is counterproductive, because creationism is nonsense at best, charlatanry at worse, and demagoguery at all times.
but evolution as a concept isn't above scrutiny.
If by scrutiny you mean observation, then yes, because in science nothing is above observation (though for some things we still need to work out how to observe them). Observation is where science begins. Science then goes on to the tricky bit, which is explaining those observations, and then testing the explanations through experimentation and more observations. And this is where creationists and other people fuzzy on scientific reasoning get things wrong. They think that an explanation that gets invalidated or that needs to be modified somehow also invalidates the observations it inadequately explains. But it doesn't. Lamarck's theory of inheritance of acquired characteristics has been soundly disproven, but that doesn't change the fact that characteristics do change between generations. It only means that Lamarck didn't come up with a good explanation of how that happens.
It's a big problem that every challenge to evolution get filed under "creationist whack job work".
Because it pretty much is. Because again, challenging the observed phenomena of evolution is challenging the evidence of our own eyes. Literally mountains of such evidence. Meanwhile, challenges to natural selection happen all the time, some of which have led to a much greater understanding just how evolution happens (and the rest of the world, too - gene drift has some pretty far reaching ramifications), and have caused us to modify the theory of natural selection itself. So natural selection doesn't just explain evolution, it also has evolved as well.
How is anyone supposed to believe that a God would create dinosaurs, kill them, bury the bones under layers and layers of sedimentary shelves, each indicating a different time of progression and adaption?
Well, as a christorian, you should know that God is the biggest troll of all…
Meanwhile progression in human civilization is stemmied because of people like this. People that cling whole heartedly to the belief that some make believe figure is guiding their lives. Were you raped? They'll stand outside an abortion clinic and call you a murderer. Have a terrible incurable disease? Too fucking bad, deal with it, stem cell research hurts their imaginary man's feelings and you'll just have to pray you get better and regrow your organs back.
Probably the saddest thing about the creationists is their own childishly limited concept of God. They can't give Him any credit for subtlety. There's an old, sad joke about that which, badly paraphrased, goes something like this:

A Christian Scientist learns he has cancer. Being a good Christian Scientist, he doesn't go to the doctor, but instead prays to God for a cure. This works as well as can be expected, and soon enough he dies horribly and finds himself before God at the pearly gates of Heaven.
"What the hell?" asks God. "You're not supposed to be here for another 60 years."
"I thought the cancer was all part of Your Great Plan," says the Christian Scientist. "I prayed for a cure every day."
"But I gave you a cure, you stupid fool," replies God. "If I'd wanted you to die from cancer I wouldn't have put adriamycin in the dirt of that Italian castle."
Christianity, once the only salvation of knowledge for western civilization (IE; monasteries during the Dark Ages) is now the antithesis of everything we could be doing right in the world. Complete ass backwards loonies.
Actually that was mostly the Arabs, preserving the knowledge of the Greeks through the Persians. Most of what the European monks preserved was Roman drek. However, while a lot of the knowledge they preserved was largely useless, at the same time they were expanding knowledge all on their own through research and experimentation. Just look at Roger Bacon, Robert Grosseteste, Elmer of Malmsbury, and so on.

Even today the problem isn't Christianity. Not all Christians are loons, just some of them, so the problem isn't one of religion, or Christianity, but rather of willful (and enforced) ignorance. And I have to think that these people would be the same under any theology; their religion is their excuse, not the cause, for their bad behavior.
 
Who the fuck can even argue evolution. Fossils are like, the biggest indication there is no God in the Christian sense. How is anyone supposed to believe that a God would create dinosaurs, kill them, bury the bones under layers and layers of sedimentary shelves, each indicating a different time of progression and adaption? It's mind blowingly stupid. More than that, it's just cowardly and lazy. If you believe in the Christian version of God, you are simply afraid of death and can't persevere with the knowledge that you're an insignificant speck in the universe, a mote of dust in a giant's eye. Meanwhile progression in human civilization is stemmied because of people like this. People that cling whole heartedly to the belief that some make believe figure is guiding their lives. Were you raped? They'll stand outside an abortion clinic and call you a murderer. Have a terrible incurable disease? Too fucking bad, deal with it, stem cell research hurts their imaginary man's feelings and you'll just have to pray you get better and regrow your organs back. Christianity, once the only salvation of knowledge for western civilization (IE; monasteries during the Dark Ages) is now the antithesis of everything we could be doing right in the world. Complete ass backwards loonies.
In addition basically the only prerequisite for evolution is genetic mutations. If you deny that then you're denying things as obvious as Down's Syndrome. (And since we're generally not equally willing to fuck people with Down's Syndrome, it's almost like we're naturally selecting our population's phenotypes...)
 
I'm going to get a bit meta here. On the forum, there's a thread where discussion about MLM (otherwise known as pyramid schemes) is the topic. That's what this all reminds me, the whole Christan, pseudoscience, anti vaccination, moronic masses. We live in supposedly enlightened times. The fact is, everyone has access to a limitless fount of information via the Internet. Even people who can't afford a computer can go to a library. And people still fall for this shit, over and over. Believe a crazy God did this and that. Ok! Chemtrails are evil and spooky! The government is injecting you with fluoride to control your mind! GET RICH QUICK SELLING VITAMIN SHAKES. It's all the same fount of stupidity.

I know I'm ranting but...it just blows my mind. We live in a world where men have formulated ways to reach the stars and delve the deepest abyss yet the basic pattern of behaviour for people is the cheapest and the lowest. Don't use your brain, just think what others think. That'll show 'em.
 
I don't debate with creationists online. It's a toxic behavior that does nothing good for your psyche, well-being, or mood as a rational, logical person. Although, using the word "debate" in that context is giving that word a bit of a stretch. A "debate" by definition is a rational and free exchange of ideas and point of view. You can quote as much repeatable scientific information as you like, and all they will do is stand there yelling "BIBLE! BIBLE! BIBLE!" at the top of their lungs. We have all the data, supported by centuries of research in myriad cross-connected scientific fields, and all they have is a mis-translated two thousand year old book of folklore.

I debate with them where it matters, at the polls. It's only a matter of time.
 
I don't debate with creationists online. It's a toxic behavior that does nothing good for your psyche, well-being, or mood as a rational, logical person. Although, using the word "debate" in that context is giving that word a bit of a stretch. A "debate" by definition is a rational and free exchange of ideas and point of view. You can quote as much repeatable scientific information as you like, and all they will do is stand there yelling "BIBLE! BIBLE! BIBLE!" at the top of their lungs. We have all the data, supported by centuries of research in myriad cross-connected scientific fields, and all they have is a mis-translated two thousand year old book of folklore.

I debate with them where it matters, at the polls. It's only a matter of time.
I think everyone wants to believe that most people can be reasoned with, so they go out of their way to try. There comes the point, however, where you just have to accept that which you never wanted to; some people are beyond all logic and reason, and any efforts you make to deal with them on a rational level are completely wasted.
 
May be a little off-topic, but one of my pet peeves about the modern "Age of Information"?

Approximately sixty years ago we- as a species- made it from the earth to the moon, using only sheer balls and slide rules.

Point blank: Today, RIGHT NOW. Your laptop or cellphone has more than a thousand times the computing power and processing speed of the entire NASA mainframe at the time of the moon landing. And what do we use these powerful devices for? In tota, as a species? Exploring this wonderful universe and all it's beautiful manifestations? Personal growth in the expansions of our minds via co-existence with different cultures? Expanding our understanding of both the finite physical universe and our infinite interactions of the awesome machinery of nature?

Nope.

We look at cat videos, and bitch about restaurants.

Kill. Me. Faster.
 
The problem with creationism/intelligent design is that it's just flat out not science. At all. There's no testable theory. It's not science if you can't even design an experiment. I wouldn't have a problem with them if they were kept in the realms of literature and philosophy where they belong.

Ironically, most of the staunchest defenders of the "Intelligent Design" theory apparently have the IQ of a pop tart. I mean seriously, their banana argument? Google "artisan banana plants".
 
May be a little off-topic, but one of my pet peeves about the modern "Age of Information"?

Approximately sixty years ago we- as a species- made it from the earth to the moon, using only sheer balls and slide rules.

Point blank: Today, RIGHT NOW. Your laptop or cellphone has more than a thousand times the computing power and processing speed of the entire NASA mainframe at the time of the moon landing. And what do we use these powerful devices for? In tota, as a species? Exploring this wonderful universe and all it's beautiful manifestations? Personal growth in the expansions of our minds via co-existence with different cultures? Expanding our understanding of both the finite physical universe and our infinite interactions of the awesome machinery of nature?

Nope.

We look at cat videos, and bitch about restaurants.

Kill. Me. Faster.
Speak for yourself. @CompyRex uses the Information Super Highway to read articles for his neurosurgery practice. I use it for my aerospace engineering designs. And the rest of the folks have become top-notch Christorians.
 
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