Plagued /r/TNOmod and the Reddit HOI4 modding community - When a subreddit for a video game mod turns to utter insanity

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There's a LOT of dubious lore & world design that should have been completely revamped when it became a mod:
-Burgundy shouldn't exists past 2 years in game, per current "lore", all the german settlers were sent in the east and and Burgundy itself is closer to 5 years old, it should at the very least collapse as soon as the german civil war starts (no more food imports, impossible to rule over the natives with <1% of the population liking you, Moskowien & Kaukasia have troubles with like 20% of the population being German and Ostland blows up with around 50%).
-The oil crisis: Italy has a near total control over the region, even if being Italian automatically make them dumb & bad, it should not be nowhere as catastrophic as portrayed.
-Zhukov being competent when he was a babbling retard IRL (also applies literally any russian general that isn't Rokossovsky but Zhukov is the most egregious example)
-Various USA & Russia bits already mentioned.

The world was designed first and then everything was justified backward from there: it's ok if the mod wants to be dumb & fun, but that's not what TNO aspires to be. It is only consistent to someone whose only history books are retarded shit like a people's history of the united states.
Well... Burgundy has a militarized police and army combined with fascist collaborators. Remember, when the population is thoroughly disarmed and traumatized... North Korea OTL. It can exist, albeit moribund. But I agree with one thing, it should invest heavily in 1984 level of population surveillance immediately -or- collapse.

True with oil crisis though. Considering the world is FAR more autarkic and less interconnected than OTL 70's and MANY countries not even depending on Italian oil exports... the oil crisis shouldn't even be a thing. Maybe weaken European markets and Japanese imports of oil a little. It's funny when USA extracts its own oil, switch to nuclear power and can synthesize to export even and suddenly, boom, USA economy takes a sledgehammer hit. Stupid.
 
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I think YouAreWrong is being too harsh on Soviet leadership, but Germany could have had a government made entirely of Alexander the Greats and Napoleons but it probably still would have lost. The USSR was almost certainly too big for Germany to take on even in a one v. one fight, even with the rot from communism.

If you want a German victory, I don't think it could be under a National Socialist Germany at all. German racial ideology prevented them from gaining much support from the Soviet people. A "Classical" Fascist Germany might have been able to get enough support to actually win.
If you want a realistic German victory, look back 50 years earlier to how the Kaiser won. Destabilize, divide and conquer. That's basically the only way to win. And even then, it spelled the end of the Germans with the amount of men they had to shove into the east to prevent a collapse of any order.
Well... Burgundy has a militarized police and army combined with fascist collaborators. Remember, when the population is thoroughly disarmed and traumatized... North Korea OTL. It can exist, albeit moribund. But I agree with one thing, it should invest heavily in 1984 level of population surveillance immediately -or- collapse.

True with oil crisis though. Considering the world is FAR more autarkic and less interconnected than OTL 70's and MANY countries not even depending on Italian oil exports... the oil crisis shouldn't even be a thing. Maybe weaken European markets and Japanese imports of oil a little. It's funny when USA extracts its own oil, switch to nuclear power and can synthesize to export even and suddenly, boom, USA economy takes a sledgehammer hit. Stupid.
Militarized police doesn't do really much against a strong partisan movement, and the "collaborators" are only there to save their ass, and don't overall put their most into preserving the state. And you're completely autistic thinking that the USA having enough oil will prevent any reason to not have any effects. The cost to produce oil in the USA, even in the 70's, is vastly more expensive than it is to import it from the middle east. America still has a ton of oil and so does Canada, but it's too expensive to be profitable enough to exploit at the current oil prices in 2021. Oil would still have a huge price increase if we used it, due to the costs of labor in the USA vs the Middle east. It's basic economics man
Source: Econ major.
 
Militarized police doesn't do really much against a strong partisan movement, and the "collaborators" are only there to save their ass, and don't overall put their most into preserving the state. And you're completely autistic thinking that the USA having enough oil will prevent any reason to not have any effects. The cost to produce oil in the USA, even in the 70's, is vastly more expensive than it is to import it from the middle east. America still has a ton of oil and so does Canada, but it's too expensive to be profitable enough to exploit at the current oil prices in 2021. Oil would still have a huge price increase if we used it, due to the costs of labor in the USA vs the Middle east. It's basic economics man
Source: Econ major.

Can we move past Autism jokes now? Roachjokes are over. Seriously.

Also.

>The cost to produce oil in the USA, even in the 70's, is vastly more expensive than it is to import it from the middle east.

The OTL mechanics and economic changes of lassez-faire markets of oil import from Sandniggeria did not happen. In WW2, the USA used oil from its own sources. This timeline is brutally different. Why should it be that difficult? Why should it not be possible in this timeline the USA completely isolated itself from Europe and focused on internal oil economy?
 
I highly doubt the entire Soviet leadership were babbling retards except Rokossovsky. That reflects really badly on German leadership that they lost to them.
The nuclear hot take is that germany didn't lose to the soviet union but to the USA (or less bait-y, it lost to a soviet army fed with american meat & grain, dressed with american fabric & boots, transported by american rails & trains, supported by planes fueled by american high octane gas, explosives made of american nitrates, and with orders carried through american telephonic lines).

Zhukov planned an offensive with one million men against 100k crumbling old franco prussian war veterans and armed children, preceded by the largest artillery barrage in history and an uncontested air supremacy: 3:1 casualty ratio in favor of the germans. The eventually offensive succeeded when the krauts had to retreat because their positions were outflanked & they had to retreat. Very competent. (Battle of the Seelow Heights, it should've been a complete roflstomp), he was just as disappointing at Khalkhin Gol too, the IJA was organized like a pre-WWI army and the results were really underwhelming: 50% more casualties with a 2:1 advantage in numbers, being vastly better equipped and not having completely insane & unaccountable officers.

If you want to read more on this, David Glantz wrote excellent books on the subject, namely: Stumbling Colossus: The Red Army on the Eve of World War, When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler (this one is also a covert lend lease wank), Soviet military operational art: in pursuit of deep battle.
I believe that they're all on libgen.

I think YouAreWrong is being too harsh on Soviet leadership, but Germany could have had a government made entirely of Alexander the Greats and Napoleons but it probably still would have lost. The USSR was almost certainly too big for Germany to take on even in a one v. one fight, even with the rot from communism.

If you want a German victory, I don't think it could be under a National Socialist Germany at all. German racial ideology prevented them from gaining much support from the Soviet people. A "Classical" Fascist Germany might have been able to get enough support to actually win.

Yeah I might be.

Well... Burgundy has a militarized police and army combined with fascist collaborators. Remember, when the population is thoroughly disarmed and traumatized... North Korea OTL. It can exist, albeit moribund. But I agree with one thing, it should invest heavily in 1984 level of population surveillance immediately -or- collapse.

True with oil crisis though. Considering the world is FAR more autarkic and less interconnected than OTL 70's and MANY countries not even depending on Italian oil exports... the oil crisis shouldn't even be a thing. Maybe weaken European markets and Japanese imports of oil a little. It's funny when USA extracts its own oil and can synthesize to export even and suddenly, boom, USA economy takes a sledgehammer hit. Stupid.

That is half of a good point: even while viewing the natives as subhuman scum, a lot of the leadership is native, which hints that the natives are a big majority in the army & police. But it also brings us to a really spicy unintended message in the mod: nazism will fuck up your country and bring it to civil war, but ULTRANAZISM will chug along better and you might even blow up the world if you're good enough ! There's only one event that tells you that it is not sustainable, and frankly it's not threatening: at the start of the game, your economy minister tells you that following current trends, the economy will collapse in 20 years, he then gets assassinated. That's the only looming, inevitable menace to your ultranazi state, an economical collapse. You take care of every other problems without issues: insubordinate SS legions ? lol blackmail them. Resistance fighters ? Honeypot time. Not enough police ? Work to death the population. The rational used for that is that the Burgundian ultranazis are very competent, which again leads to some interesting questions : Why are most of the competent/smart administrators in the third reich ultranazis ?

Burgundy completely fails at its job because it must fulfill 2 incompatible roles: being a threat to the entire world while showing that "doubling down your nazism when it doesn't work is not a solution". It completely forgoes the latter and, with how the Heydrich path plays out, I'll even go as far as saying that the higher echelon of the team kind of forgot that the initial message of the mod was "nazis bad" and is shifting to "(cold war) america bad" with a sprinkle of "right wing ideologies bad" for Russia because they're that stupid.

With how they handled the troon autism, it seems that the mod will only become more dire. They have to choose between doing something fun or something serious, but aren't choosing so they have neither.
 
Can we move past Autism jokes now? Roachjokes are over. Seriously.

Also.

>The cost to produce oil in the USA, even in the 70's, is vastly more expensive than it is to import it from the middle east.

The OTL mechanics and economic changes of lassez-faire markets of oil import from Sandniggeria did not happen. In WW2, the USA used oil from its own sources. This timeline is brutally different. Why should it be that difficult? Why should it not be possible in this timeline the USA completely isolated itself from Europe and focused on internal oil economy?
America still also trades with countries that would be affected negatively by the oil crisis, would it not? Their economy being hurt would translate into a hurt american economy
 
America still also trades with countries that would be affected negatively by the oil crisis, would it not? Their economy being hurt would translate into a hurt american economy
fair enough, but it shouldn't be a literally SLEDGEHAMMER BLOW like the Troonsquad would "code". Do you remember the debuffs in the game? It completely fucks up any attempt at buildup while the FUCKING RUSSIA would have a stronger economy by that time running on commie magic and freespawn focus factories coming out of Pacifica's hatchet gash. I clearly remember building almost nothing even at 100% construction modifier in the mod when the crisis hits.

I'd say, less effective damage than OTL, and even less effective once a few focuses are taken to ensure domestic production, considering nuclear lobby is strong, there is no anti-nuke greenfags and massive reactor buildup can power the USA. Particularly now that the US economy is more of a fiat money in the 60's and it's still on a quasi-war footing Cold War with Axis AND Japan..
 
The nuclear hot take is that germany didn't lose to the soviet union but to the USA (or less bait-y, it lost to a soviet army fed with american meat & grain, dressed with american fabric & boots, transported by american rails & trains, supported by planes fueled by american high octane gas, explosives made of american nitrates, and with orders carried through american telephonic lines).

Zhukov planned an offensive with one million men against 100k crumbling old franco prussian war veterans and armed children, preceded by the largest artillery barrage in history and an uncontested air supremacy: 3:1 casualty ratio in favor of the germans. The eventually offensive succeeded when the krauts had to retreat because their positions were outflanked & they had to retreat. Very competent. (Battle of the Seelow Heights, it should've been a complete roflstomp), he was just as disappointing at Khalkhin Gol too, the IJA was organized like a pre-WWI army and the results were really underwhelming: 50% more casualties with a 2:1 advantage in numbers, being vastly better equipped and not having completely insane & unaccountable officers.

If you want to read more on this, David Glantz wrote excellent books on the subject, namely: Stumbling Colossus: The Red Army on the Eve of World War, When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler (this one is also a covert lend lease wank), Soviet military operational art: in pursuit of deep battle.
I believe that they're all on libgen.



Yeah I might be.



That is half of a good point: even while viewing the natives as subhuman scum, a lot of the leadership is native, which hints that the natives are a big majority in the army & police. But it also brings us to a really spicy unintended message in the mod: nazism will fuck up your country and bring it to civil war, but ULTRANAZISM will chug along better and you might even blow up the world if you're good enough ! There's only one event that tells you that it is not sustainable, and frankly it's not threatening: at the start of the game, your economy minister tells you that following current trends, the economy will collapse in 20 years, he then gets assassinated. That's the only looming, inevitable menace to your ultranazi state, an economical collapse. You take care of every other problems without issues: insubordinate SS legions ? lol blackmail them. Resistance fighters ? Honeypot time. Not enough police ? Work to death the population. The rational used for that is that the Burgundian ultranazis are very competent, which again leads to some interesting questions : Why are most of the competent/smart administrators in the third reich ultranazis ?

Burgundy completely fails at its job because it must fulfill 2 incompatible roles: being a threat to the entire world while showing that "doubling down your nazism when it doesn't work is not a solution". It completely forgoes the latter and, with how the Heydrich path plays out, I'll even go as far as saying that the higher echelon of the team kind of forgot that the initial message of the mod was "nazis bad" and is shifting to "(cold war) america bad" with a sprinkle of "right wing ideologies bad" for Russia because they're that stupid.

With how they handled the troon autism, it seems that the mod will only become more dire. They have to choose between doing something fun or something serious, but aren't choosing so they have neither.
Burgundy as a threat to the whole world is ridiculous. That's like North Korea or even Khmer Rouge Cambodia being a world-terrorising force. The state should just fail and collapse and even if it drags on a bit it shouldn't really be in a position to do much unless it gets nuclear weapons from Germany, in which case it could fire some at enemy nations in a suicidal final strike. The fact most of the region isn't even German and Himmler was pretty much a lolcow means it probably wouldn't last very long.
 
I am sorry but as a representative of Anarcho-Cophrophagism I have to disagree and denounce you to queen Lochria.View attachment 1918049
Oh hey it's the latest Power Rangers monster of the week.

Anyways, in fairness to Zhukov, basically the entire experienced NCO and middle level officer corps of the Soviet army was annihilated during Operation Barbarossa, so every single general had way WAY too much on their plate because there wasn't enough of a command structure left. And since the war was ongoing, they never had a chance to really fix it.

The Soviets never really started transitioning to a modern, professional army until the late 80s, and they're STILL trying to get that going. Spoiler alert: it's not going well.
 
You also have the fact that when the right wing was in control in South America, they were literal military dictatorships. For all the Pinochet helicopter memes, he did round up a bunch of left wingers and mass executed them at a football stadium. Or Argentina "disappearing" left wingers and then giving their children to people in the military. So they were fucked up on a moral level.

Economically, they ran up their national debt for numerous projects that caused a hyperinflation crisis in the 80s when the U.S. raised their interest rates.

When one side of politics was responsible for that shit, it makes sense for why Latin America had a pink tide, as it is known as.
Well. Let me tell you: In Venezuela, there was no "mass executions of communists in football stadiums". And in this case would be even more understandable, considering the communists formed guerrillas throughout the 60's and 70's, and tried to coup a couple of times (coups of 1992).

And we all know how that worked out (and for those who doesn't know, all the communist guerrilla leaders later became governors of Venezuela through all the 2000 and 2010 decades; and, I guess this time we all know how that worked out).

So yeah, the USA were kind of bastards with all the Condor stuff. But, they weren't that wrong in supporting far right dictatorships, seeing Venezuela's case (where they weren't as rough with communists and leftist, letting the local governor to "deal" with them).
 
Burgundy as a threat to the whole world is ridiculous. That's like North Korea or even Khmer Rouge Cambodia being a world-terrorising force. The state should just fail and collapse and even if it drags on a bit it shouldn't really be in a position to do much unless it gets nuclear weapons from Germany, in which case it could fire some at enemy nations in a suicidal final strike. The fact most of the region isn't even German and Himmler was pretty much a lolcow means it probably wouldn't last very long.
In the gameplay Burgundy tries to cause a nuclear war by instigating tensions between countries, with the state being basically a front for inteligence operations since they don't have enough bombs to cause a nuclear fallout.
But still, there a shitton of plotholes, such as the fact Burgundy is a failed state, specially with the famines in the countryside, if you invade Burgundy as Göring the result is a nuclear fallout when they have three nukes at best yet if you invade as Heydrich where they have a third of the German nuclear arsenal this doesn't happen, the SS foreign legions can only revolt if the player fucks up even through Himmler literally treats their fellow countrymen as slaves, actively trying to destroy their cultures.
 
In the gameplay Burgundy tries to cause a nuclear war by instigating tensions between countries, with the state being basically a front for inteligence operations since they don't have enough bombs to cause a nuclear fallout.
But still, there a shitton of plotholes, such as the fact Burgundy is a failed state, specially with the famines in the countryside, if you invade Burgundy as Göring the result is a nuclear fallout when they have three nukes at best yet if you invade as Heydrich where they have a third of the German nuclear arsenal this doesn't happen, the SS foreign legions can only revolt if the player fucks up even through Himmler literally treats their fellow countrymen as slaves, actively trying to destroy their cultures.
The problem with this is that it's basically like North Korea or Cambodia making major powers go to total war with each other. Failed states don't have that level of influence.
 
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