Plagued /r/TNOmod and the Reddit HOI4 modding community - When a subreddit for a video game mod turns to utter insanity

  • 🐕 I am attempting to get the site runnning as fast as possible. If you are experiencing slow page load times, please report it.
Why the fuck do Some devs (In this case, KX) think that having a route for Pelley would be "Traumatic"
It's a shitty Map Game for christs sake. I see similar things happening in which mods would refuse to add stuff because "it crosses a line" meanwhile having worse shit. KX is arguably the biggest hypocrite in this case if you look at everything they have, Playing as Pelley probably wouldn't even scratch the tip of the iceberg.
I'd understand if it was following workshop TOS but come on.
I normally just Lurk here but i thought this would be interesting to discuss in general, Why do some teams genuinely have this perception that they can't make anything "too dark" in a WW2 game using real Historical Figures?
From reading the particular thread, I don't know if it's the KX devs saying they will remove Pelley from the mod but more them either mocking/clarifying why the devs of the main mod did.
 
My Bad for being retarded. Although it still raises the point of why some Mod teams get so uppity when one could argue the scenario they're dealing with involves individuals that were either National Socialists/Fascists, Radical Leftists or engaged in some other unsavory thing OTL.
Part of me thinks that the excuse of something being "problematic" is at times a cop out for them not being able to think of good content for them, but i know damn well that there are some that genuinely think people would go up in arms over the funny Christian Fascist guy from base game being included and or doing things in relation to his actual beliefs.
You can make a argument that Hoi4's gameplay makes Fascism and other Extremes Ideologies out to be good by how they play, and since most modders that make content based off real life have very overt political biases the last thing they'd want is to make their political opponents out to be logical or a good choice. Adding onto this, some people may see a mod featuring a real life political leader and take that mods portrayal of said person as either a endorsement of said Ideology or a condemnation of it.
It all (in my opinion) comes down to modders not being able to put side personal politics either when making something or consuming something, so they either omit certain people or go hard into ensuring no one could possibly think they were supporting them.
Think TNO's fail paths or the one KaiserRedux submod that (re?)adds a Joseph Goebbels path to post Civil war germany that involves a event of people calling him ugly and him literally shitting himself on the toilet from the food he ate.

Base Hoi4 gets away with this since the Paradox writers aren't nearly as interested in writing stories as modders are, and most extreme Ideologies exist as side paths that don't really feature much content.
 
Don't think KX will remove Pelley, wouldn't be surprised if KR did though since he is "ultra evil" or something like that. Kaiserreich did remove Goering from Mittelafrika after all.

KX tries to have him be a leader who makes America into some sort of strange Christian Commonwealth. Think the basis for it was since there was no Nazi party or fascist Italy for Pelley to take inspiration from in the KR timeline his ideology would be different. As for the esoteric stuff, Pelley in real life thought he met Jesus and God and could levitate. He also mixed together several ideas such as theosophy and spriitualism into some strange religious system. Later in life he made a religious philsophy called "Soulcraft" that was centered around UFOs and extraterrestials.

He was a fascinating and strange man who had a lot going on historically even if you don't include his efforts to found fascist inspired political parties.
 
You can make a argument that Hoi4's gameplay makes Fascism and other Extremes Ideologies out to be good by how they play
Not to get too meta, but it's an issue that plagues every facet of WW2 media. If it's a film, you need Germans in endless Panthers and Tigers and Hanomags because that's sexy and gets explosions and looks cool and it's what the audience expects. If it's a strategy game you need the German economy to be as powerful as the Brits and Americans and Soviets, and if it's an action game you need a prodigious amount of mechanized forces everywhere to make the threats to a one man army believable. Even in simulators like Red Orchestra, the teams have to balanced so it never seems like the Soviets held a fire superiority advantage over the Germans at any point and the two sides are exactly equal in the meta sense; the forces are different by virtue of player skill rather than the material advantages of industrial production that wins big wars.

I recently played through Medal of Honor: Allied Assault for the bazillionth time and even the Italians in Sicily look like a modern mechanized force; whilst never a match for Gary Oldman, the Regia Esercito garrison is armed with the P26/40 and rides into battle in trucks. IRL, the local Sicilian forces consisted of third rate static troops with the few tank companies armed with license copies of the Renault FT (the first rate army having just been captured in Sicily with their tanks and the second line army being ground up on the Eastern Front). Yes, that's right, the French tank of WW1 vintage armed with a pea gun or twin machine guns. The German defense of Berlin, likewise, has several dozen Panzer IVs show up as you desperately rush back to friendly lines in a commandeered T-34/85. This is the end of the war for Italy and German in both scenarios, the regime we are invading is collapsing in front of our eyes, and yet somehow Fascism is so efficient it is able to conjur up several regiments of top-tier troops just to defeat the player. This is a series that is, allegedly, "authentic" to the battles being fought.

But it's fun, that's ultimately what matters, not historic authenticity or truth seeking. Unfortunately, that colors our perceptions of historical events too.

He was a fascinating and strange man who had a lot going on historically
Pelley was an insane schizo with a retarded ideology and therefore perfect for alt-history mods of HoI4. Modders and the "community" are fucking stupid.
 
From reading the particular thread, I don't know if it's the KX devs saying they will remove Pelley from the mod but more them either mocking/clarifying why the devs of the main mod did.
Oh they definitely aren't going to remove Pelley. He's not even that bad in KX (as has been said, he only got that way after witnessing the rise of Hitler IRL and was more just a legitimately funny schizo before that, and since Hitler never gets anywhere in the Kaiserreich timeline...). The most evil paths for a right-wing America in the mod all belong to the KKK, who aren't even in the same faction as him: they're in the CAR (Deep South), he's with Huey's AUS (based in the Western plains states mostly, though it does extend to Texas & Louisiana).

KX also did the research to dig up genuine pieces of shit to helm the aforementioned most monstrous paths, rather than turning someone who wasn't too bad historically into a psychotic caricature like KR did with Pelley & Long. The best example being DC Stephenson, leader for the Old Klan path (unambiguously the most 'evil' path that can be done by a non-commie white guy in KX USA), who publicly presented himself as a staunch all-American Prohibitionist and defender of (white) womanhood's virtue but literally raped & bit a young white Protestant woman to death IRL - a scandal so grave that it completely tanked the KKK's reputation in Indiana. Just reading his Wikipedia page would probably leave the KR devs crying and shitting blood.
 
KR iis removing Pelley? I thought they loved their retarded caricature of a right winger who puts blacks in concentration camps, is anti-vaccine, and talks to ghosts. Pelley was pretty harmless as others have stated IRL anyways, nothing like his mod counterpart. Most bizarre thing about him really was his belief he could walk through walls and commune with the dead.

Ironic that KX, notable for it's totally wack and schizo paths because the devs will put anything literally in there (Frida Kahlo, a Mexican artist reviving the Aztec Empire), makes Pelley far closer to his real life counterpart. To give the KR devs some slack, but not much, he is one of the last things remaining from the older Kaiserreich Mods from the HOI3 days.
Why the fuck do Some devs (In this case, KX) think that having a route for Pelley would be "Traumatic"
It's a shitty Map Game for christs sake. I see similar things happening in which mods would refuse to add stuff because "it crosses a line" meanwhile having worse shit. KX is arguably the biggest hypocrite in this case if you look at everything they have, Playing as Pelley probably wouldn't even scratch the tip of the iceberg.
I'd understand if it was following workshop TOS but come on.
I normally just Lurk here but i thought this would be interesting to discuss in general, Why do some teams genuinely have this perception that they can't make anything "too dark" in a WW2 game using real Historical Figures?
A lot of these people are too mentally fragile to have fun doing evil shit in games. If you lurk enough in any HOI4 mod subreddit, or even any gaming subreddits in general, you will find people who completely swear off specific paths just because they are racist/sexist/imperialist/etc.
You gotta admit it's quite impressive how frequently Kaiserredux updates itself with new content. Those devs are probably the most competent and hard working devs in all of hoi4 with only the pony mod comes to a neck to neck second.
It really is impressive, but I have to admit it is extremely annoying to start up a new game to test out some new country's tree only for a new update to come out and corrupt my save.
 
KR iis removing Pelley?
They announced it a while ago. The tl;dr here: Silver Legion is out, Huey Long rebranded as NatPop, pretend that this is a job well done.
Quoting the key bits from the post:
it has long been the desire of the team to replace one of our most egregious pieces of content in the mod - the Silver Legion/KKK/Pelley path in the American Union State. The content is extremely distasteful, to put it mildly, and is also an objectively terrible path in gameplay - you'll stay in negative stability forever, in general being just a very weak USA, and the only reason to play it relies on the meme factor.
...

To make room for this, Huey Long has been shifted into the National Populist ideology slot at game start. While there is much discourse in the wider HOI4 community surrounding where Long's political views should place him, we felt that the National Populist slot fit his initial radical revolt well. Huey Long has risen to prominence in the KRTL through a mixture of paramilitary intimidation, championing a nationalist America first policy, and promising wide sweeping populist economic restructuring of the American economy.


To further elaborate on this concept, we have expanded upon Huey Long's postwar political tree. Most notably, the tree features one mutually exclusive after a large block of shared political focuses. On the right, Huey Long can choose to go all in and focus on enacting his populist visions to reshape the United States of America into his vision. In contrast, Long can also opt to reach out to some of his former allies in the establishment political parties that found themselves on opposite sides in the civil war. This will force him to give up on truly enacting the Share Our Wealth plan in full strength, but will turn the government Authoritarian Democrat in the finisher focus.
So basically, they just cut the guy because they didn't like him and then proceeded to just make Huey fucking Long a NatPop and lump him in with the Iron Legion and then justify the thing by saying that "he's both nationalist AND populist", which basically just outright retardation. You can even see it in the post, they were so lazy about it that they still have him be a pretty normal guy that does welfare programs and destroys the Klan like in the old content. They did add a boiler plate Texan politician as the new Authorian Democrat (basically a right-of-center ideology slot for the non-KR players out there) and gave him the world's most generic tree ever and masqueraded that as actual content.

Huey Long post war.png


It's like HOI4 modders are having an arms race in political retardation.
 
So basically, they just cut the guy because they didn't like him and then proceeded to just make Huey fucking Long a NatPop and lump him in with the Iron Legion and then justify the thing by saying that "he's both nationalist AND populist", which basically just outright retardation. You can even see it in the post, they were so lazy about it that they still have him be a pretty normal guy that does welfare programs and destroys the Klan like in the old content. They did add a boiler plate Texan politician as the new Authorian Democrat (basically a right-of-center ideology slot for the non-KR players out there) and gave him the world's most generic tree ever and masqueraded that as actual content.

Huey Long post war.png


It's like HOI4 modders are having an arms race in political retardation.
Oh my fucking God, KR is never ever going to let this meme of 'Long man bad' go, are they. Their characterization of Long has pretty much always been based entirely on It Can't Happen Here, Sinclair Lewis' long agendapost against the man and love letter to FDR (quite the tyrant himself and hardly as much of a democratic champion as liberal propaganda would have you believe), rather than any actual facts and this just further cements that nonsense. But it's made even funnier by the existence of Alfalfa Bill, the Oklahoma governor who was literally EVERYTHING they want to slander Long as. That man was a comically corrupt thug (yeah, Long was pretty shady too, but you basically had to be to have a prayer in machine-dominated Southern politics at the time and at least he actually brought benefits to the people instead of just himself & his cronies), generally friendly and protective toward big business, far more overtly oppressive (Long declared martial law once to square off with his rival the Mayor of Baton Rouge & to suppress an insurrection by a Standard Oil front group also supported by the latter, Murray invoked martial law more than 30 times & usually for bullshit that benefited nobody but himself), and a giga-racist with actual fascistic sympathies.

KX has used Murray as the initial figurehead of the CAR for many years now, and he fulfills his role as the starting 'bad Natpop man' choice for American players vastly better than Long ever could. Certainly much more research has been done than in the early hazy days of HOI2 KR when 'Long as Southern dictator' first became a trope and Christ knows the KR4 devs have no problem with axing longstanding content that they find 'problematic', like Pelley himself just now, so if 'realism' were an actual concern for them said devs should have gotten rid of Long in favor of Murray or a similar alternative (a longer-lived James Vardaman, who just got a path in KX, would also work well if they wanted 'Huey but actually super-racist'). But for whatever reason and despite all the evidence to the contrary, indeed even evidence that the contrary would actually work better as proven by their modding rivals, they are hellbent on ramming the square peg into this round hole and dying on this hill of Long being Sinclair Lewis' strawman.
 
Kaiserreich just fell off completely and is a shadow of its former self. I know I said this before in the thread but I really wish that someone would just take one of the 2019 builds(the China update being the latest) and keep it updated with the current HOI4 patch. Millennium Dawn does this for MD Classic so I imagine it wouldn't be that hard.
 
Kaiserreich just fell off completely and is a shadow of its former self. I know I said this before in the thread but I really wish that someone would just take one of the 2019 builds(the China update being the latest) and keep it updated with the current HOI4 patch. Millennium Dawn does this for MD Classic so I imagine it wouldn't be that hard.
There's virtually no reason to play KR over KX at the moment, besides maybe like 5 countries that are outdated in KX, like Qanon Serbia and such. Especially now that KX has graduated from being a collection of wacky sub-mods to being a parallel mod with far more frequent and robust updates that don't fall into the paradox of autistically trying to be as "reaslistic" as possible in a fucking alt-history game.
 
KX has used Murray as the initial figurehead of the CAR for many years now, and he fulfills his role as the starting 'bad Natpop man' choice for American players vastly better than Long ever could.
How interesting is the CAR? Is there more to them than just neo-COnfederate racists or is that their gimmick? Never played them and want to know for my next America run in Redux.
yeah, Long was pretty shady too, but you basically had to be to have a prayer in machine-dominated Southern politics at the time and at least he actually brought benefits to the people instead of just himself & his cronies
They also believe Long was a diehard racist because he didn't givee the blacks free shit or something and was from the South, despite evidence to the contrary that he was remarkeably progressive for a Southerner and actually provided the black Lousianans shit. Sure he didn't end segregation byt these retards don't understand political machines and how that would have nuked his career.

Not saying Long was a saint by any measure, but portraying him as this corrupt bigoted dictator is such a retarded take.
There's virtually no reason to play KR over KX at the moment, besides maybe like 5 countries that are outdated in KX, like Qanon Serbia and such. Especially now that KX has graduated from being a collection of wacky sub-mods to being a parallel mod with far more frequent and robust updates that don't fall into the paradox of autistically trying to be as "reaslistic" as possible in a fucking alt-history game.
The only justifiable reason to play KR over KX could be stability and game speed, but it's either just my new PC not being a total potato or something KX devs did, but it runs pretty well now. Other than that everything you said is correct, playing KR now just feels like a bad tatse in the mouth, sort of like playing vanilla HOI4.
 
How interesting is the CAR? Is there more to them than just neo-COnfederate racists or is that their gimmick? Never played them and want to know for my next America run in Redux.
Surprisingly deep for the faction that's usually memed as the giga-racist hicks and little else. The Klan paths are their best-known, but they actually have a varied selection of alternatives if you don't want to burn a perfectly good cross...
  • There's Lindbergh/Ford if you're looking for a Northern-based far-right faction, they're obviously gung-ho about industrialization and staunchly opposed to the hyper-trad agrarian populist traditions of the South.
  • Install Patton for a conservative military dictatorship which can then potentially give way to a restoration of democracy, albeit one where the left wing of the American political spectrum has been so totally purged that Joe McCarthy (one of the successor presidents you can elect) is what passes as a Social Liberal under the new system even though he's the same guy he was IRL.
  • E. H. Crump and the newly added Vardaman make for interesting contrasts between a corrupt establishment that isn't too hard on minorities vs. a left-wing populist who's also another uber racist.
  • Herbert W. Armstrong is a more accurate take on what Pelley used to be like in KR, and I've seen focuses for a Rockwell/Yockey path although I've never done that one. Apparently Yockey can conquer Europe.
They also believe Long was a diehard racist because he didn't givee the blacks free shit or something and was from the South, despite evidence to the contrary that he was remarkeably progressive for a Southerner and actually provided the black Lousianans shit. Sure he didn't end segregation byt these retards don't understand political machines and how that would have nuked his career.

Not saying Long was a saint by any measure, but portraying him as this corrupt bigoted dictator is such a retarded take.
I think an absolute unwillingness to extend any consideration of nuance to right-wing figures is to blame here, on top of the usual historical/political illiteracy common to the KR devs. Long's evil because 1) one of FDR's pet propagandists said so, and 2) he's a pre-civil rights era Southern politician who didn't dedicate his every waking moment & every bit of political capital on hand to undermining Jim Crow at all costs. They consider him fundamentally interchangeable with the likes of Murray, to an even greater extent than he himself or another contemporary white Southerner would've considered Japanese & Chinese people to be basically the same, because hey they're all unwholesome white Southern Christian guys who don't worship blacks and the alphabet soup. And being proudly & willfully ignorant leftards they will clearly never, ever allow their minds to be changed on this subject.
 
How interesting is the CAR? Is there more to them than just neo-COnfederate racists or is that their gimmick? Never played them and want to know for my next America run in Redux.
They're pretty fun overall. The only real Neo Confederate aspect is that the Old Klan can form the Golden Circle(the event doesn't mention the CSA though and is only described as being used to expand "Klannist" interests) and the Young Klan can have a modified Confederate flag as the new national flag. They focus on turning America into a racial corporatist state and can chose to give limited autonomy to the black belt. The other major Klan faction is Armstrong's Christian Identity. His path basically is Pelly's old KR path cranked up to 11 with the final choice being whether to fully isolate as America or go to war against Britain and Germany to unite the "lost tribes of Israel". During his tree you'll get events about a polio epidemic, if you chose to ignore it you'll get one about purging the Young Klan, chose to purge them and you'll get a coup where you can either elect George Lincoln Rockwell or Francis Parker Yockey. These two are obviously memey since both men were 19 at KX's start date, Rockwell just forms the American Constitutional Republic which consists of his IRL ideas sans NS since Hitler didn't come to power while Yockey gets to go and conquer all of Europe to form the Imperium.
 
I'm surprised no hoi4 mod has ever tried to used Georgian governor Eugene Talmadge as a path. He tried to form a shaky enemy of my enemy is my friend type alliance with Huey Long despite being completely different except for their opposition to FDR. Unlike Huey Long, Talmadge actually did fit the bill of an authoritarian racist dixiecrat that admired Hitler.
 
They also believe Long was a diehard racist because he didn't givee the blacks free shit or something and was from the South, despite evidence to the contrary that he was remarkeably progressive for a Southerner and actually provided the black Lousianans shit. Sure he didn't end segregation byt these retards don't understand political machines and how that would have nuked his career.
One of the biggest criticism's I've heard of Long from leftists is that he vetoed an anti lynching law.
 
I'm surprised no hoi4 mod has ever tried to used Georgian governor Eugene Talmadge as a path. He tried to form a shaky enemy of my enemy is my friend type alliance with Huey Long despite being completely different except for their opposition to FDR. Unlike Huey Long, Talmadge actually did fit the bill of an authoritarian racist dixiecrat that admired Hitler.
This FDR guy must have really been the devil if you had mildly racist at worst populists teaming up with actually racist populists to take him down. Speaking of Long, the whole placement of him taking the South in KR is bad as well, but another holdover from old KR. Even users of the subreddit have pointed out that Long's political base IRL was Louisiana, Texas, and the largely agrarian and impoverished Midwest where his programs would have been most beneficial.

The guy had meetings with Robert M. La Follette Jr. and his family, arguably one of the most socially and economically progressive men of his time, and they shared very similar stances on several issues. La Follette belonged to a political dynasty from Wisconsin I might add. Pretty removed from Louisiana.

Of course they condemn their fictionalized Long though due to one event where the player can agree to get support from the Klan or something in exchange for a few free divisions, ignoring that it has zero impact besides opening up the Pelley route if you go that way. You don't empower them any way, just free divs.
 
This FDR guy must have really been the devil if you had mildly racist at worst populists teaming up with actually racist populists to take him down.

FDR is the worst president the United States every had and a fucking disgrace to the Founding Fathers. He tried to stack the supreme court in a cartoonishly stupid move and thankfully failed, he signed the NFA with the explicit goal of gun control by making guns unaffordable (200 dollars tax stamps on fucking 1934 dollars) and with provisions to move into making handguns illegal (which never passed because that was impossible to sell to the US public but it's why the NFA and ATF are so retarded about short barrel rifles, the laws against those were made as a precaution for the eventual handgun ban) he fucked the economy for a DECADE and kept the Great Depression going for much longer than needed while insisting on Kenysian bullshit, he directly set the standards and basis for the massive growth and explosion in scope of the federal government, he directly made the American people fat and diabetic by fucking with farming prices in a unconstitutional move and hooking farmers up on a addictive drug called subsides, he had literal communist agents of the USSR on his administration like Charles Dexter White and Alger Hiss and his VP during WW2 Wallace might as well have been a paid NKVD plant for how naively stupid he was at trusting Stalin, he fell for British propaganda about Nazis wanting to establish Reichskomissariats in South and Central America like a complete retard and pushed for the USA to get involved into world politics despite the public not wanting him to (British rigged the GOP Convention of 1940 to ensure that the Republican Candidate was a literal who Alf Landon because he shared this international view so they could rely on America to keep funding their European war), his court packing was done because he knew his plans were unconstitutional and when they were eventually struck down he worked his propaganda to reword them slightly and get it passed again, his entire presidency was as close to fascism as the USA ever came with his attacks on the freedom of the press and people by being a complete retard and having his buddies in business and media hide criticisms by defunding and blacklisting editors and opinion collums, he took the Business Plot kerfufle and made it into a media blitz to pretend he was some sort of "common man" when most of those implicated in the plot would then proceed to work alongside him wonderfully as soon as it calmed down. There is a damn good reason faggots like Obama lionize the cripple fuck he was actively destroying the USA to remake it as a European style social democracy with big government and small citizens. The only thing he ever deserved was goddman Polio and the world would be a much better place if he had died from it.

🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿

Anyway HOI4 does a bad job at representing the USA at this time and the possibilies it had because most history of the time has been thoroughly retconned and overwritten by propaganda like much of WW2 into becoming a mythology that is the foundation of modern western neoliberalism. Most of these modders have no idea and never once read a single primary source on the time period, and maybe some 5% have read a direct secondary source. Most of them are operationg not on historical research but Pop History slop from catchy youtube videos and soundbites. A lot of modders try and be good but sadly as we have seen time and time again being good at one thing doesn't translate into being good at another, and the people who are actually diving to read primary sources on pre-WW2 history are far more likely to be doing something like kvetching about FDR on some New Zealand agricultural forum than making HoI4 mods.
 
Back