日本語を勉強しよう! Let's Learn Japanese! - Everything and anything that can help with learning Japanese language

[HRT Heisenberg]

If any kiwis are still looking to practice Japanese maybe I can provide some resources, advice or we can try practicing together in this thread together. I autistically studied kanji for about three years then moved on to grammar, playing games in Japanese and making friends. I may not be native but I've been using the language in practical settings for quite a while and have been told I'm quite natural in speaking. I'd be happy to chat in this thread in Japanese or talk about anything regarding the language

 

[ToroidalBoat]

ＴｏｒｏｉｄａｌＢｏａｔさんは日本語があまり上手ではありません。

- Google Translate of "ToroidalBoat does not speak Japanese good."

From what I know, I see it used a correct translation of "good" -- as in skilled, rather than "good" as in morally OK. I like how it used "-san" honorific. So formal (lol).

 

[HRT Heisenberg]

ＴｏｒｏｉｄａｌＢｏａｔさんは日本語があまり上手ではありません。

Technically correct but it sounds a bit stiff to me. If I was talking behind your back to a friend I'd probably say ToroidalBoatは日本語を上手く喋られない。 Aka more specifically you can't speak very well. Obviously outside of that context Japanese people will never tell it to your face and tell you you're doing great

From what I know, I see it used a correct translation of "good" -- as in skilled, rather than "good" as in morally OK.

Probably because いい is never used in the way it decided to translate the sentence. DeepL tends to be okay for short stuff but it gets confused when things get long and the topics/subjects start changing between sentences.

I like how it used "-san" honorific. So formal (lol).

Translators always do that it's weird. One thing I noticed in the wild over textbooks/classrooms to real life is the younger generation uses honorifics a lot less in general (呼び捨て) unless they absolutely have to or to endear the girl they like (lol).

 

[ToroidalBoat]

Technically correct but it sounds a bit stiff to me.

GT always does that stiff-sounding "normal" or "semi-formal" tone with 日本語.

I don't think it ever translates to a casual tone, nor keigo (really formal).

Japanese people will never tell it to your face and tell you you're doing great

Does it go differently if one really is fluent? Or do Japanese act the same?

 

[HRT Heisenberg]

Does it go differently if one really is fluent? Or do Japanese act the same?

Yes generally they will be genuinely shocked at your speaking and will want to know how long you've been in Japan and how you studied/got good. Either that or they'll be more specific with their compliments "I was prepared to use a translator to speak to you but I didn't need it so I'm suprised". Or simpler things like "イントネーションがすごい自然ですよ、びっくりしました。"

Sometimes they still say 日本語が上手い but the context is more that they're suprised instead of encouraging you to do better.

 

[mirai gadget 8]

Obviously outside of that context Japanese people will never tell it to your face and tell you you're doing great

 

[quisquiliae]

If any kiwis are still looking to practice Japanese maybe I can provide some resources, advice or we can try practicing together in this thread together. I autistically studied kanji for about three years then moved on to grammar, playing games in Japanese and making friends. I may not be native but I've been using the language in practical settings for quite a while and have been told I'm quite natural in speaking. I'd be happy to chat in this thread in Japanese or talk about anything regarding the language

I have been thinking about buying some native Japanese grammar materials for awhile now, would you or anyone else have some recommendations? I have done some searching and haven't found anything that seems definitive for grammar like the 大辞林 seems to be for dictionaries. I was hoping to find a book or series that natives consider to be the most authoritative. I have been trying to use more native resources to get better perspective although I think my "monolingual transition" is still a ways off.

 

[HRT Heisenberg]

I have been thinking about buying some native Japanese grammar materials for awhile now, would you or anyone else have some recommendations? I have done some searching and haven't found anything that seems definitive for grammar like the 大辞林 seems to be for dictionaries. I was hoping to find a book or series that natives consider to be the most authoritative. I have been trying to use more native resources to get better perspective although I think my "monolingual transition" is still a ways off.

There's Tobira which I personally haven't used but from what I know it's specifically designed to ease you into the advanced Japanese stage where you read more native like stuff, but I'm not sure how good it is.

As for authorative Japanese grammar books I know they exist in libraries but I have never bothered with them so I don't know the names. But I do know there's a lot of textbooks written solely in Japanese that cover explanations, exercises and even sample texts from N5 to N1. I'm out traveling so when I get home I'll see if I can find the names of the textbooks I used (one may of been 新完全マスター). A lot of foreigners in Japan are Asian and not Westerners so the approach to teaching in classrooms is normally just all Japanese so there's heaps of Japanese only textbooks for foreigners.

As for the "monolingual transition" I'll just tell you what worked for me. Learn enough kanji that you can start to piece together vocab meanings / comfortably use a dictionary and just go straight in and play a game with a nice gameplay to reading ratio. I played Ocarina of Time in Japanese and just when I was starting to get exhausted from trying really hard to understand things I was back into the gameplay where I could take a little break. I think LoZ also has furigana on Twilight Princess at least too.

 

[quisquiliae]

There's Tobira which I personally haven't used but from what I know it's specifically designed to ease you into the advanced Japanese stage where you read more native like stuff, but I'm not sure how good it is.

As for the "monolingual transition" I'll just tell you what worked for me. Learn enough kanji that you can start to piece together vocab meanings / comfortably use a dictionary and just go straight in and play a game with a nice gameplay to reading ratio. I played Ocarina of Time in Japanese and just when I was starting to get exhausted from trying really hard to understand things I was back into the gameplay where I could take a little break. I think LoZ also has furigana on Twilight Princess at least too.

I'll check out Tobira and keep looking around as well, thanks for the suggestion. I've played a few games in Japanese at this point but I always end up in a minimum effort mode where I learn just enough to navigate the game comfortably. It's probably time I give it a more earnest try, and I think I do have the Japanese version of Master Quest somewhere. I will say though even the low effort mode helps. I started doing noticeably better on my anki reviews shortly after I started playing everyday. Constantly navigating Japanese must still condition the mind even if its not very deliberate.

 

[dick brain]

How long would y'all guess it takes to become conversationally fluent?

I'm not a weeb but a couple friends are kicking around the idea of taking a trip to climb Mt Fuji and it would be cool to not be a bumbling idiot while we're there.

 

[sadrefrigerator]

How long would y'all guess it takes to become conversationally fluent?

I'm not a weeb but a couple friends are kicking around the idea of taking a trip to climb Mt Fuji and it would be cool to not be a bumbling idiot while we're there.

Probably not possible within your timeframe. Aside from studying, you really need real world conversational practice to be able to be use a language practically.
Luckily for you most people who visit Japan know no Japanese and all the tourist areas are set up for tourists.

 

[dick brain]

Probably not possible within your timeframe. Aside from studying, you really need real world conversational practice to be able to be use a language practically.
Luckily for you most people who visit Japan know no Japanese and all the tourist areas are set up for tourists.

I've got probably 6-12 months, it's not like a spur of the moment thing

 

[sadrefrigerator]

I've got probably 6-12 months, it's not like a spur of the moment thing

Even if you take classes for a year, Japanese people will be speaking too fast and using vocabulary you don't know. You'll also probably not get to the most colloquial grammar. You might be able to say stuff but it would be hard to have a real conversation.

To put in perspective. I studied for 2.5 years in college, and am taking online lessons right now. College was pretty fast paced and structured to taking tests along with learning and practicing the language. My lessons right now are less about learning for a test and more conversational, and practice focuses.
I often meet Japanese people while playing poker. We usually converse in Japanese because my Japanese is better than their English. They have to dumb down their Japanese 1 level, but we can generally have a back and forth conversation that is useful for both of us.
At one year of learning, the other person would probably have to dumb down his conversation about 5 levels. You would be able to say stuff to the other person, but it would be hard to talk back and forth.

 

[HRT Heisenberg]

Realistically getting used to speaking and getting "fluent" took me only around 6 months of extensive real life interaction. The catch is I had already read a heap of stuff and had a pretty good grasp of vocab and grammar. Speaking itself isn't too hard but the reality is Japanese is so different from English in terms of structure and even the meaning of words the prerequisite to conversing comfortably is really high. There's people who get fluent hardly knowing how to read but they're usually speaking with friends or the like every day for a long time. Unfortunately speaking is gated behind the unique challenges of Japanese comprehension for us foreigners, which itself is gated behind kanji, since the best way to learn is to read native materials. Hence why people say around 3 years to mastery (but it's probably longer).

I've played a few games in Japanese at this point but I always end up in a minimum effort mode where I learn just enough to navigate the game comfortably.

That in of itself is great because you're learning to filter out the important stuff to the fluff imo. I found the Persona or Yakuza games great because characters ask you questions so you have to keep up with the conversation in the game to answer right. Also I'd just recommend RPGs in general because the reading you do has a direct effect on your understanding of the game/mechanics.

 

[ToroidalBoat]

Can one just call days of the month the usual word for the number and then 日 (nichi, "day") and be grammatically correct? Or, is that confusing thing for the first 10 days (tsuitachi, futsuka, mikka, etc) and the 14th the only grammatically correct way? Like is "ichi nichi" grammatically correct for 1日? If not then Japanese got a lot harder.

 

[HRT Heisenberg]

Can one just call days of the month the usual word for the number and then 日 (nichi, "day") and be grammatically correct? Or, is that confusing thing for the first 10 days (tsuitachi, futsuka, mikka, etc) and the 14th the only grammatically correct way? Like is "ichi nichi" grammatically correct for 1日? If not then Japanese got a lot harder.

I had to ask a friend about this, I've just been winging it the whole time.
You apparently always use this pattern
ついたち(いちにち)、ふつか、みっか、よっか、いつか、むいか、なのか、ようか、ここのか、とおか
So 10日（とおか）10日間（とおかかん) 10日後（とおかご）
いちにち for 1日 is also apparently okay, but even my friend had to think twice and wasn't 100% sure of the rules when asking. In short I think いちにち is ok but something like ろくにち probably isn't correct gramatically but even some Japanese people may not be sure when reading it.

 

[ToroidalBoat]

this pattern

So to learn the number kanji, you gotta learn at least 2 readings for each one of them? For example, 二 (2) is ni by itself, and futatsu as 二つ or futsuka as 2日? Also, the kanji 日 seems to have a lot of readings. Of course English isn't exactly way easy either. For 2 there's "two", "twice", "duo", "bi-". And there's "sun", "solar", "helio-".

 

[残念。]

So to learn the number kanji, you gotta learn at least 2 readings for each one of them? For example, 二 (2) is ni by itself, and futatsu as 二つ or futsuka as 2日? Also, the kanji 日 seems to have a lot of readings. Of course English isn't exactly way easy either. For 2 there's "two", "twice", "duo", "bi-". And there's "sun", "solar", "helio-".

Just wait until you look into how many readings 生 has.

 

[Celestial Peace]

Just wait until you look into how many readings 生 has.

Japanese learner here. The Kanji 生 has lots of readings but only two are the most common. They usually use nama for raw food.

 

[HRT Heisenberg]

So to learn the number kanji, you gotta learn at least 2 readings for each one of them? For example, 二 (2) is ni by itself, and futatsu as 二つ or futsuka as 2日? Also, the kanji 日 seems to have a lot of readings. Of course English isn't exactly way easy either. For 2 there's "two", "twice", "duo", "bi-". And there's "sun", "solar", "helio-".

It's generally days and things (e.g 九つ is ここのつ) that use the pattern above. Almost all other patterns use the regular pattern 二月、2匹、2歳、2回 all start with に。But some counters have exceptions 20歳 is はたち or 9時 and 九月 get shortened to くじ and くがつ。When learning counters just assume the regular いち、に、さん pattern and be careful of rendaku and that will take you 90% of the way probably.

They usually use nama for raw food.

And for unprotected sex