Sadbrained Thoughts on Modern Gaming

[Two Dollars]

(I don't know if this is a "me" thing, but the funny thing is emulation gives me the exact same feeling--I always feel bad that I'm using a laptop or something while my actual legitimate hardware gathers dust).

Plus, it just feels weird to me that I'm using modern hardware to get an experience that, theoretically, I could've been getting on devices I've owned for decades.

That’s just autistic.

… Okay, if you want a more reassuring answer, look at it this way: modern strides in emulation and rom hacking/decompiling allow those old games to be played in new ways. You can play the original F-Zero in native widescreen with HD Mode 7 and CD audio. Super Mario 64 has multiple PC ports that all add widescreen 4K 60 FPS, and one even adds online multiplayer in the form of both co-op and new competitive modes. Randomizers let you play an old game again without “replaying” it (my favorites are the ones that turn a long RPG into a condensed roguelite such as Earthbound’s PK Scramble or Paper Mario TTYD’s Infinite Pit). And none of that even touches on shaders, netplay, achievements, and all the other things that comes standard in most emulators.

Modern advancements aren’t just about making new games that you may or may not care about, they’re also about improving old games beyond their original limits.

 

[skykiii]

That’s just autistic.

Yup. It's either my blessing or my curse, depending on perspective.

Modern advancements aren’t just about making new games that you may or may not care about, they’re also about improving old games beyond their original limits.

This is however something I'm kind of iffy on, personally.

Outright hacks like the Randomizers I'm fine with, and in fact I recall having a blast when I watched those at Games Done Quick (remember the one that turns Link to the Past and Super Metroid into one huge game?) New gameplay modes and such, I can see those being fun for people who are already familiar with the games in question. And then there's stuff like Earthbound Halloween Hack which is basically a brand new game.

I'm not a big fan of things like a cartridge game having CD-quality audio or A Link to the Past having anime FMV added into it though. To me that's just a taaaaad too close to George Lucas putting CGI in a movie trilogy that was clearly made in the early 1980s.... though to be fair, at least with gaming these changes are optional and, in fact, something you have to seek out (unlike with Star Wars, where the original theatrical versions are the ones that are harder to obtain).

Not to mention the comparisons that could be drawn to the PC gamer mentality of "mod fucking everything" and the can of autistic worms that opens.

 

[Two Dollars]

remember the one that turns Link to the Past and Super Metroid into one huge game?

I was thinking about making a thread on this, but look at Archipelago. It’s the same idea as that, but instead of combining two games, it combines up to around fifty. Each person plays one game, and in addition to things being randomized, you find items in your game that help other players progress in theirs. So getting a star in your game of Mario 64 will give someone else upgrades in Rogue Legacy, a chest in that game will give someone else an item in Pokemon Red, that player can defeat a trainer to give someone else a key item in Undertale, and so on. It scales to any number of players with any number of games (you can also give yourself multiple games and play alone, but it feels like a chore). Some of the mechanics get creative, too; in Super Mario World, basic abilities like holding objects and running at full speed have to be unlocked from someone else’s game. It takes a bit of initial setup, but it’s well worth it.

 

[skykiii]

So, I felt like returning to one of the points I kinda got at in the OP, about the problems with certain types of games. Sorry if there's a few repeats but I'll try to keep them short.

Classic Style Mega Man Clones

Now, I say this as a huge Megaman fan, but.... the Classic series (as in, any game that isn't part of the X, Legends, Zero, or Battle Network lines* ) is already like 11 games long, and that's before you factor in spinoffs like the Gameboy titles, the Megaman and Bass games, the MS-DOS games.... or the fact that this is a series that has been being cloned since the days of the NES (Krion Conquest, anyone?) Plus its like, the series that gets the most romhacks and fangames, next to Mario. Game Devs: we do not need another Megaman-inspired side-scroller. Copy the Legends series, for goodness sakes!

* I say that, but actually the X series is a lot like Classic anyway, and some of the Battle Network games (like the Gamecube one and the one on Wonderswan Color) play like classic Megaman.

Classic Sonic the Hedgehog clones (Freedom Planet et al)

All I said about Megaman applies here, but for me there's a difference.... Megaman's formula is inherently more fun. The Genesis-era Sonic games are okay but I honestly can't get excited for a fanwork or a new game in their style.

For that matter, honestly even back in the 1990s I recall getting tired of classic jump-on-their-head sidescrollers, and really a lot of sidescrollers in general.

Roguelikes

I vaguely mentioned this earlier but honestly, the minute a game has "roguelike" in its description, I back out and look elsewhere.

The original Rogue and games like it were fun time-wasters, and it helps they were games you got essentially for free. But I get the feeling the only reason this is such a saturated genre is because devs are thinking they don't have to actually design levels or anything, just program the game to basically create its own levels.

My entire problem with random/procedural generation can be summed up in an experience I had with Minecraft: First time I found an abandoned underground mineshaft, my imagination went soaring, I felt like there was a story to this world, a rich history.... then I saw almost the exact same mineshaft thousands of miles away (on the same world) and the illusion was broken for me.

This is without even getting into possible gameplay issues. Like I said, Rogue is fun as a freeware time-waster, but I can't imagine paying for a game like that (I did pay for a few but always regretted it).

16-Bit Style RPGs (By which they almost always mean SNES-style)

Thanks to Kemco, this is pretty oversaturated.

Besides which, like I said earlier, RPGs have paradoxically changed in ways I don't like, while not at all advancing in the ways that would actually be good.

What I personally would like to see is RPGs that are styled after NES RPGs, and I don't mean just visually--RPGs on the NES (not to mention MS-DOS and other early PCs like the Commodore 64) tended to feel like a midway point between open world and linear stories. Dragon Warrior for example: you can technically go wherever you want, but if you talk to people and use your brain you'll have an idea of a direction to go... but if you know what you're doing you can sequence break to get some powerful equipment right off the bat... so its like, it gives you a suggestion without railroading.

I know some people will say western RPGs do this, but those fall into the "getting too complicated mechanically" issue at times, plus using things like level scaling or randomization.

On that note:

Throwbacks to "Classic" PC RPGs

What bothers me here is they're always throwbacks to like, the original Baldur's Gate or games of that era.... which, I hated those games even back when they were new. For me the "golden age" of PC RPGs is stuff like Ultimas 3-5, Wizardry 1-5 (I started to not like Wizardry around the sixth installment), the first five Might and Magic games, and (stretching the definition of "RPG" a bit) the first two Quest for Glory games.

To be fair, I actually did see someone had made a game in the style of Might and Magic III. I forget what it was called (I wanna say "Amber"-something). That's a step in the right direction.

This however is also one of those cases where I fear any retro-inspired take is gonna add modern fads like crafting systems.

Which...

PSA For Game Devs: STOP PUTTING CRAFTING SYSTEMS IN YOUR GAMES.

All they are is busywork mixed with min-maxing bullshit, and nobody actually likes doing it.

It's okay in games like Minecraft or Story of Seasons (to an extent) but if the game is about me on a quest to slay a dragon, I should not be asked to forge my own sword and armor at the blacksmith's house--does your local car dealership ask you to manually build your own car?

Plus, again, it always feels like its meant to appeal to min-maxers who are willing to experiment to craft the most broken recipes... or sometimes you end up with the BOTW Cooking problem where a lot of recipes do functionally the same thing, or the thing Spoony mentioned in Final Fantasy 13 where you spend a lot of time and resources improving one piece of equipment only for it to get replaced....

... And harkening back to what I said a paragraph ago, it can also ruin the mystique of things like magic items. It's hard to think too highly of the legendary Amulet of Who-The-Fuck-Ever when all you're looking at is the mechanical benefits and you're like "Oh, I made something better in the Mage's Guild in Winterhome."

Real Time Strategy

One of my favorite games of all time is Warcraft II (particularly the Battle.net Edition), for being fun, bright, serious but not too up its own ass.... and very pick-up-and-play.

(By comparison, Starcraft I feel has too much going on, the setting is uninteresting and I find the characters all unlikable jackoffs--and that's without having played the sequel which I've heard makes everything worse--and you have to have both Sonic speed and a PHD in the game's mechanics to even be able to take all but the first few campaign levels).

This unfortunately is a "System Shock" case where, since Starcraft is more popular, its the one everyone wants to clone (what I mean by that is... I love System Shock 1 but hate SS2, but then all the "Shock" clone games are inspired more by SS2. Sucks to be me).

Honestly, if Warcraft II was ported to modern systems, with user-made maps and campaigns, I would be happy. The GOG release kinda does this but I can tell you that does not run on Linux (or at least not on Linux Mint, which is what I'm using).

Turn-Based Strategy

Like RPGs, this feels like a genre that's gotten too complicated.

Look, just give me Switch or modern PC ports--with custom map and online play support--for the NES Romance of the Three Kingdoms or the Sega Genesis Master of Monsters, and I will shut my bitch hole.

Also, I mentioned this earlier, but someone needs to do a modern remake of Sierra's Outpost, just not cripplingly broken.

Racing Games

Completing the trilogy of "games I wish would get a modern port," my favorite of all time is Outrun 2006 Coast to Coast, which I own on PS2.

There've been games that claim to be clones of Outrun, but they fundamentally miss the point: Outrun 2006 is a very relaxed game. You can drift, pass rivals, and have a timer, but most of the game comes off like a man and a woman just enjoying the road. Even when they see ghosts, their interest is "how many can I hit in a row?"

A lot of Outrun clones feel a little too "hardcore" and "competitive" and thus loose that vibe of "its a sunny day and I want to drive my car, nothing is gonna ruin my buzz."

The other game I wish someone would retro-clone is Wave Race 64, which is another case where inspired games have been known to miss the mark--part of the joy is the sunny morning vibes and paradoxically pleasing and chill music, which makes the game feel more like four friends having funzies and less like serious competition. Even Wave Race's own sequel botched this one. The PS2 game Splashdown: Rides Gone Wild completely ruins it by forcing you to do complicated tricks in order to stay in the race.

(Full stop... racing games should be all about you and how well you can drive. Stuff like Mario Kart's items are okay, but Splashdown's trick system just ruined the game for me).

Also, Motorcycle racers in particular... the best one I ever played was the original Moto Racer for Windows 95. A lot of motorcycle racers have the problem of "if you take a corner too tightly, you fall off the bike"... and then they put in a lot of hairpin turns that I have no idea how you're supposed to take. Moto Racer has a sequel on Switch, which is okay but all the starting racers feel like they don't control right and you have to unlock ones that control better... and it just does not feel as "arcadey" as the original did (heck even Moto Racer 2 on Windows 98 was already beginning to feel wrong).

Anyway, just thought I'd get all this out of my system.

..........

Feel free to add your own rants if you want.

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

Half the Switch e-Shop is Metroidvanias. It's not special anymore, its mundane and overdone and they all kind of run together.

Yep, that's one genre that is absolutely disgusting to me now. It needs to look really, really special for me to seriously consider one now, especially since it was never my favorite to begin with.

People say regular 2D Platformers are oversaturated, but it kinda depends. Broadly speaking, yes, but there's almost no high-quality Mario clones, which is probably my favorite type.

Like I said in another topic, a lot of times when I revisit games I used to think were hard, I end up being like "I used to think this was hard? Really?"

I think they're hard, but for the wrong reasons. And the only reason we even tried so much was it was all we had, and we had the time/patience to push through.

I love TMNT for NES but it's just barely easier now because I'm not like 2, but it's still busted and shitty and I'll never, ever beat it, or honestly even try. I'm content getting wrecked in the beginning, slightly further than I got as a wee lad, that's where my nostalgia is for that shitty game anyway.

Sad thing is it could be good with a few minor tweaks, but alas...

 

[Xarpho's Return]

Simcity itself is, to me, one of those "it got worse over time" things. The SNES version of the original is my favorite, because its graphics and music are just the right amount of cozy and comfortable and really fits the supposed "Software Toy" thing Maxis was apparently going for.

While up to SC3000 they're still playable, there's this feeling that they got more complicated and micromanage-ey each time.

On that note I recall an interview with Sid Meier (back in the DOS days) where he said that one problem he always had with Simcity is he could tell Will Wright inserted a lot of his politics into it, something Meier apparently attempted to avoid with the original Civilization.

I'm willing to bet history has not been kind to that statement, regardless of whether you're talking about just the original Civ in retrospect, Civ's own modern sequels, or whether or not Simcity was/is really more political than Civ was/ended up being.

Jeff Braun literally admitted to "pushing political agendas" in 1992, relating to nuclear power and mass transit (Wright didn't like freeways, and later SimCity games buff mass transit to make them actually a better choice in vanilla games, though that's partly due to "sim"plifying the numbers).

But again, things change. I know Civilization has gone the way of politics—adding climate change, for instance. And even though EA is pozzed they haven't gone on record sperging about stuff like the "Real Highway Mod" because it doesn't match their "vision".

 

[skykiii]

I think they're hard, but for the wrong reasons. And the only reason we even tried so much was it was all we had, and we had the time/patience to push through.

I mean, we coulda watched TV or something, which I absolutely did do (in fact I recall not becoming a hardcore gamer until the 1990s, though I had video games all my life).

Thing I keep running into is a lot of "hard" games are actually cheesable, or else really not that hard. Like as an adult I keep noticing tricks or quirks that my child brain somehow never noticed.

I love TMNT for NES but it's just barely easier now because I'm not like 2, but it's still busted and shitty and I'll never, ever beat it, or honestly even try. I'm content getting wrecked in the beginning, slightly further than I got as a wee lad, that's where my nostalgia is for that shitty game anyway.

Sad thing is it could be good with a few minor tweaks, but alas...

Honestly I think that game is kinda underrated. And comparing skills, I can consistently get to the Technodrome but I've never gotten to Shredder without the use of cheat devices.

Even with those, he has an attack that can one-shot you (even bypassing infinite health codes) but last time I used such a device I found a way to cheese the fight--there's these two platforms in his boss arena and there's a way to finagle it where he'll always jump up at you, and then you hit him and he goes back down.

You want a real bitch though? Try the MS-DOS version, which actually can not be beaten without cheats due to a level design oversight. This reviewer goes over it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvLJeps0zis

Jeff Braun literally admitted to "pushing political agendas" in 1992, relating to nuclear power and mass transit (Wright didn't like freeways, and later SimCity games buff mass transit to make them actually a better choice in vanilla games, though that's partly due to "sim"plifying the numbers).

But again, things change. I know Civilization has gone the way of politics—adding climate change, for instance. And even though EA is pozzed they haven't gone on record sperging about stuff like the "Real Highway Mod" because it doesn't match their "vision".

Is Gandhi still a warmonger in recent games or did they back off of that for fear of offending his people?

EDIT

Getting away from the "sadbrain" theme of this topic (kinda) I have found one genre (or theme at least) I like that I don't really see games in the old days doing.

I'm not sure what to call them, but an example of one would be The First Tree, where it kinda has gameplay but the real meat of the game is telling a story. Actually games like that or The Crooked Man are some of the few games where I've felt like stories actually got better.

Not that either is perfect--Crooked Man has a few parts where its not clear immediately what you're supposed to do, and The First Tree I've heard some people say it comes off as a little sappy and unrealistic. When I'm in the right mood though, either game can hit hard.

The problem though is these are basically games where once I've had the emotional experience, there's not much reason to come back to them for like a few years, unless I'm showing them to someone else.

How well being a "Feels" game works can vary though. The First Tree works for me because its a short game (about four hours) and the gameplay, while having issues, isn't particularly aggravating. Something like Omori on the other hand tries to bring the feels but screws the pooch because the game spends twenty hours just jacking around before getting to the good part.

(Incidentally, the first time you play The First Tree, I recommend making sure whatever device you use can't connect to the internet. Without spoiling too much, there's one part where internet access can potentially ruin a certain story beat).

 

[Xarpho's Return]

Getting away from the "sadbrain" theme of this topic (kinda) I have found one genre (or theme at least) I like that I don't really see games in the old days doing.

I'm not sure what to call them, but an example of one would be The First Tree, where it kinda has gameplay but the real meat of the game is telling a story. Actually games like that or The Crooked Man are some of the few games where I've felt like stories actually got better.

Not that either is perfect--Crooked Man has a few parts where its not clear immediately what you're supposed to do, and The First Tree I've heard some people say it comes off as a little sappy and unrealistic. When I'm in the right mood though, either game can hit hard.

The problem though is these are basically games where once I've had the emotional experience, there's not much reason to come back to them for like a few years, unless I'm showing them to someone else.

How well being a "Feels" game works can vary though. The First Tree works for me because its a short game (about four hours) and the gameplay, while having issues, isn't particularly aggravating. Something like Omori on the other hand tries to bring the feels but screws the pooch because the game spends twenty hours just jacking around before getting to the good part.

(Incidentally, the first time you play The First Tree, I recommend making sure whatever device you use can't connect to the internet. Without spoiling too much, there's one part where internet access can potentially ruin a certain story beat).

These things are derisively called walking simulators; plus, I've been burned too many times "but it's a good story" and right now I can't plunk down $10 on a whim when the story is supposed to be a surprise. I might pirate it though.

When I play something like Oniken, which is done in the style of an NES game, it just makes me wonder "why am I not playing my actual NES?" Seriously, I've got a drawer full of NES games I've never beaten, what's the point of getting more games?

(I don't know if this is a "me" thing, but the funny thing is emulation gives me the exact same feeling--I always feel bad that I'm using a laptop or something while my actual legitimate hardware gathers dust).

Plus, it just feels weird to me that I'm using modern hardware to get an experience that, theoretically, I could've been getting on devices I've owned for decades. Like, why not put these games on actual carts, then? What has gaming been leading up to?

I've always attributed it to just marketing, especially when it comes to "Nintendo games are bad if they are emulated...but the Super NES Classic Edition is okay"...but I think a lot of it has to do with when and where you played it the first time, at a time and place far away. It doesn't matter if I have my original Pokémon Gold cartridge (with a new battery, of course) and Game Boy Color...both of them are relics from a time far away, and it just wouldn't feel right if I played them and partied like it was 2002.

 

[skykiii]

These things are derisively called walking simulators; plus, I've been burned too many times "but it's a good story" and right now I can't plunk down $10 on a whim when the story is supposed to be a surprise. I might pirate it though.

First Tree--at least on Switch--often goes on sale for less than two dollars. and The Crooked Man is and always was a completely free game (though I don't know if it'll run on modern windows). You can get Crooked Man here: https://vgperson.com/ (this person has translated a lot of other interesting stuff too, like the original free version of Ib).

Crooked Man is not a walking simulator, there's actual gameplay and puzzles and points where you can die or fuck up. First Tree though does kinda fit "walking simulator" though one that at times thinks its a collect-a-thon platformer (there's these sparkly things you can collect in the levels).

I've always attributed it to just marketing, especially when it comes to "Nintendo games are bad if they are emulated...but the Super NES Classic Edition is okay"...but I think a lot of it has to do with when and where you played it the first time, at a time and place far away. It doesn't matter if I have my original Pokémon Gold cartridge (with a new battery, of course) and Game Boy Color...both of them are relics from a time far away, and it just wouldn't feel right if I played them and partied like it was 2002.

There is an interesting point raised here: I've had a few cases where I got into a game thru emulation and thus that's my most "nostalgic" way to play it.

That said, I've said before my own issue with emulation is a mix of personal feels and I've had bugs and hiccups. If Emulation always worked perfectly I would probably get over my feels and just emulate everything.

Also, what's wrong with partying like its 2002? If I can read a book from the 1800s I can play a game from the 2000s.

 

[Xarpho's Return]

That said, I've said before my own issue with emulation is a mix of personal feels and I've had bugs and hiccups. If Emulation always worked perfectly I would probably get over my feels and just emulate everything.

At this point, every console game (as opposed to computer game) prior to 2005 works fine on modern computers. The exceptions include only a few consoles with poor emulators (Saturn, Xbox, or especially obscure shit) or stuff that requires accessories/gimmicks to work properly.

I vaguely mentioned this earlier but honestly, the minute a game has "roguelike" in its description, I back out and look elsewhere.

The original Rogue and games like it were fun time-wasters, and it helps they were games you got essentially for free. But I get the feeling the only reason this is such a saturated genre is because devs are thinking they don't have to actually design levels or anything, just program the game to basically create its own levels.

Yeah, the idea of Rogue was to provide a randomized, unique experience on systems that really didn't have randomized, unique experiences. And that was great...in 1980. Most of the biggest problems of roguelikes is that they don't offer a deep, consistent experience. On a broader scale, even procedurally generated runs into problems...you can get really screwed with certain maps and there are just random things that don't seem right (water, terrain issues).

There are two other cancers on games that are post-2000 that haven't been brought up yet:
Crafting. Crafting is a neat thing in theory, you can get stuff and make better stuff from them. Unfortunately, in most games, it's poorly implemented and doesn't tell you what you need. I hated Terraria for this, you could craft certain items in other certain items and it wouldn't tell you all it could really do, nor if something was just aesthetics or not, or if it had actual stat boosts. Factorio's crafting system is fine because it tells you everything you have access to and will automatically do intermediates for you if you only have raw items.

The other one is Open World, where instead of just the feeling of an open world in a small, restrained space, is a weirdly-proportioned map with just random scattered points of interest and tiny settlements. This has been a format since 2005 and we still can't come up with a real, convincing world with endless opportunities.

 

[skykiii]

At this point, every console game (as opposed to computer game) prior to 2005 works fine on modern computers. The exceptions include only a few consoles with poor emulators (Saturn, Xbox, or especially obscure shit) or stuff that requires accessories/gimmicks to work properly.

I have experience as recently as last month that says otherwise.

I was trying to stream Symphony of the Night using Duckstation--I also had Mednafen and some other emulator handy (this was on Linux Mint) but the other emulator (I wanna say it was PCSX) would not detect my controller (an 8BitDo SN30 Pro Plus) and Mednafen starts to chug as soon as I start streaming. This on a fairly recent laptop (as far as I know, a 2022 model), BTW.

SOTN seemed to be playing fine but I kept noticing weird controller inputs where I swear Alucard wasn't doing exactly what I inputed. Magic spells for example, I would get ones I know for sure I hadn't pressed the buttons for and could never pull off the actual one I was trying.

Then I got to that room in the chapel where you're supposed to be able to sit in the chairs and get visits from ghosts, and Alucard would just Not. Sit. Then I knew for sure something was wrong.

If you can offer a possible explanation or fix, go ahead. Still, this shows that no, emulation issues are not limited to just obscure games or games with gimmicks.

And this isn't even the only time in recent memory I had issues with emulation on well-known games on PCs that should have been able to handle it just fine. Super Mario RPG (same PC, same OS) would start chugging framerate when played with Mednafen, but would run on SNES9x just fine (Mednafen seems to run every other SNES game just fine by the way), and a lot of times with many different games, I've had either delayed/dropped inputs or what I call "phantom inputs" where the character will do something even when I'm sure I didn't press a button for it--most notably they like to move. This last thing has also happened on Windows-based emulators though with one controller in particular (an 8BitDo M30, which is designed to look like a Saturn controller) so I wonder if its something to do with that in particular.

I'm kinda jealous of these people I keep meeting who seem able to run every pre-2005 game perfectly with no issues, because that's just not the experience I've had.

These days, not counting official emulations, I tend to only use emulators as a last resort, usually for games I can't play any other way--normally this is arcade games, and MAME is one of the few emulators that has never given me issues.

There are two other cancers on games that are post-2000 that haven't been brought up yet:
Crafting. Crafting is a neat thing in theory, you can get stuff and make better stuff from them. Unfortunately, in most games, it's poorly implemented and doesn't tell you what you need. I hated Terraria for this, you could craft certain items in other certain items and it wouldn't tell you all it could really do, nor if something was just aesthetics or not, or if it had actual stat boosts. Factorio's crafting system is fine because it tells you everything you have access to and will automatically do intermediates for you if you only have raw items.

I also dislike how crafting seems to have become a "every game needs to have this" element. A lot of times it just does not fit and feels like it arbitrarily holds up the game. Sometimes I feel it doesn't make sense in context--Skyrim can be an example. Why in blazes would my wandering swordsman be expected to create and repair his own stuff? Isn't that what blacksmiths are for? This would be like going into a McDonalds and making your own food.

The saving grace is that I've heard crafting is more or less optional, and really only useful if you want to make game-breaking items.

Another big issue I have with a lot of crafting systems--such as the cooking in Breath of the Wild--is that a lot of the recipes are functionally the same thing, so past a point there's no reason to experiment.

Even if there was, a crafting system can run into the "strategy guide as second manual" issue and turns the game into just you autistically scavenging every piece of detritus you happen to run across because it may possibly be useful somewhere down the road.

The other one is Open World, where instead of just the feeling of an open world in a small, restrained space, is a weirdly-proportioned map with just random scattered points of interest and tiny settlements. This has been a format since 2005 and we still can't come up with a real, convincing world with endless opportunities.

The funny thing is I recall having a similar thought back in the late 1990s. Around 1998 there were two games I was playing a lot: Daggerfall (Elder Scrolls II), and the first Quest for Glory (I had just bought the Anthology and was playing it for the first time).

The games were similar in that they gave an illusion of having a lot of freedom, but the funny thing is Quest for Glory--despite being a much smaller game world--actually felt more real because they had put a lot of thought into how different skillsets could solve the different situations.

Don't get me wrong, Daggerfall was fun and is nostalgic for me to this day, but even back then I felt like it had a way of feeling "artificial" and "gamey."

I think Quest for Glory demonstrates the problem: it was able to do what it did because it was such a confined space. The bigger the world gets, the more generic everything becomes.

 

[Xarpho's Return]

I think Quest for Glory demonstrates the problem: it was able to do what it did because it was such a confined space. The bigger the world gets, the more generic everything becomes.

Even in 2005, Nintendo Power pointed out that despite being a substantially smaller world, True Crime: New York City was more detailed and had more interactivity than True Crime: Streets of L.A.. Unfortunately, both games are forgotten, but the idea still stands—it's not how big the world is, but what you can do with it.

 

[Abella]

Everyone in this community I’m in likes to get together to play games like lethal company or valorant but I never seem to have the time or energy to because I’m a dad now and don’t want to spend 11 hours out of my weekend playing games.

 

[ZMOT]

Feel free to add your own rants if you want.

you're not wrong, but you have to remember people always chase what's popular, either that's all they know, want to put their own "spin" on it (since mods aren't really a thing anymore they have to make their own games) or because they think it makes them the most money the easiest way.

however as you said there are thousands of games released, and not every game is like that. the main issue is exposure, because again most people pay no attention or aren't aware of stuff that isn't popular or gets talked about.
it's one of the reasons I like to shills next fest any chance I get, because it's probably the easiest way to find and try new games (since during next fest every games comes with a demo, and there are literally hundreds of games).

Steam Next Fest February 2023 Edition Coming Soon

A celebration of upcoming games, featuring demos, livestreams and more

store.steampowered.com

yeah, they're mostly indies so the production values won't blow you away (although those eastern-yuro/east-asia sweatshops are starting to do their own games, why go through a publisher when you can produce your own AAA assets for cheap?), but outside of that they often have a much smaller scope than usual, simply because the budget isn't there. no overload of mechanics, no overworld which takes gigabytes of assets, no hundred hour gameplay that overstays it's welcome...
added bonus, you can tell the devs directly why their game sucks, and there's a good chance they'll actually listen since they're not slaving away at some AAA studio, but create a game they give a crap about. sometimes they even thank you for it.

if you want a genre (and vidya) return to basics, that's where you'll most likely find it.
for example: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1208690/Ailuri/ - simple gameplay, simple story, no metroidvania, just a platformer to collect stuff.
of course it's easy to say MUH ENVIROMENTALISM, but joyless faggots can reduce everything to nonsense. there's a big difference between this and pandering for the sake of some ESG-score (which most small indies don't get anyway).

I also dislike how crafting seems to have become a "every game needs to have this" element. A lot of times it just does not fit and feels like it arbitrarily holds up the game. Sometimes I feel it doesn't make sense in context--Skyrim can be an example. Why in blazes would my wandering swordsman be expected to create and repair his own stuff? Isn't that what blacksmiths are for? This would be like going into a McDonalds and making your own food.

>food analogy
but seriously, that's a false equivalence. where's the game I can just be a blacksmith? no one would play that, or at least pay money for it, so it gets put into games as an option.
outside of RPGs it's usually just another form of progression anyway, in the end it doesn't really matter if you find a +1 sword to replace your old one or some stuff to build your own +1 sword which usually takes 2 button presses.
it's also usually combined with some form of inventory management, which depending who you ask can be it's own minigame (ymmv). having to make a choice what to carry around usually adds some depth instead of the simple replacing item X for item Y with a different color.

 

[skykiii]

but seriously, that's a false equivalence. where's the game I can just be a blacksmith?

One search for "blacksmith sim" later....

But that's entirely beside the point. We were talking about crafting systems and how they're arbitrarily inserted where they have no business. Dude presented his reasons and I added my own, which included that they don't often make sense in context and at times amount to asking your character to do a job that someone in the game world already does (even using their equipment).

If there's games where it makes sense or actually improves the game, that's great... but that doesn't excuse the thousands of others where it does not work.

EDIT: Or worse, where a game would otherwise be perfect but for some reason they added a crafting system in that, even if its not a dealbreaker in itself, feels like a needless extra step.

 

[Xarpho's Return]

As far as "clones of games that don't need clones", I mentioned Pokémon clones in its own thread. It's not that "clones are bad and stop making them", it's that all of them miss the point of what made the originals good in the first place (and basing them heavily after Gen 4+ Pokémon, which is a recipe for disaster).

Incidentally, this is why I brought up Stardew Valley earlier in the thread...it doesn't actually fix the annoying parts of Harvest Moon.

Speaking more broadly, a huge problem with Steam is that there's a number of games with some innovative and interesting game concepts (specifically simulation games) but most of them are half-baked derivatives that can't effectively build the concept into a full game.

 

[ZMOT]

Speaking more broadly, a huge problem with Steam is that there's a number of games with some innovative and interesting game concepts (specifically simulation games) but most of them are half-baked derivatives that can't effectively build the concept into a full game.

otoh those don't tend to be overly long, so even with some flaws they don't overstay their welcome.
the games could always be better, but I rather play something for a bit where someone tried (and didn't completely hit the mark) than the other way around. and with it being out there, someone will inevitably iterate on it, so even those "failures" are necessary in the grand scheme of things.

 

[skykiii]

Sigh.

Got little to say on the spiritual successor front because I feel like we've trodden that ground.

But one thing that's been on my mind is I miss some of the stuff around gaming as well.

Like Rental Stores. As a kid it was exciting to go to rentals (or sometimes even gas stations) and see what games they had. Reading lists on a website just is not the same.

Of course eventually I progressed to where I was interested in other things, like gaming magazines and gaming books, and like... Despite knowing they were kinda BS (even as a kid I thought the low scores for Earthbound were nonsense), there was a pure joy in reading about games, looking at pictures, imagining what some game or console might be like....

When rentals stopped being a thing (or at least reached a point where I lost interest), my obsession became Flea Markets and Pawn Shops, and those were like the second coming for me--except now you paid three bucks to own a game outright (no kidding, I got a lot of SNES games and the like for three bucks apiece... many of which I wish I had held onto. Lacking physical space sucks sometimes. And again, there was a "treasure hunt" vibe like rental stores had, but now with an additional layer that this was the period where I was starting to look back to the past and not care so much about the modern stuff.

Nowadays, pawn shops and flea markets both... well, when they exist at all, they kinda suck. Many of them don't carry games anymore, or when they do its the exact shit I didn't care about back then--X-Box and PS2 (and either way, there's an oversaturation of sports games, military shooters, hunting games, etc). A friend of mine thinks these things were ruined by scalpers who realized games were becoming collectable and valuable online and cleaned these places out, and he's probably right.

And this is probably petty, but I hate modern cover art.

I mean, sometimes modern covers are great--Minecraft and Breath of the Wild do a good job showing you what the game is about and showing that when they try they can be good--but way too often these days, I see covers that are basically just, the game's title, maybe with a character standing behind or to the side.... bonus points if the one character is some coomerbait female character.

 

[Xarpho's Return]

Like Rental Stores. As a kid it was exciting to go to rentals (or sometimes even gas stations) and see what games they had. Reading lists on a website just is not the same.

I know Circle K did video rentals so video games is only an extension of that. I'm not sure how common that sort of thing was. (It does make sense though--a lot of convenience stores were birthed from the concept of mini-grocery stores, and in the late 1980s and early 1990s, almost every grocery store had video rentals).

 

[skykiii]

I know Circle K did video rentals so video games is only an extension of that. I'm not sure how common that sort of thing was. (It does make sense though--a lot of convenience stores were birthed from the concept of mini-grocery stores, and in the late 1980s and early 1990s, almost every grocery store had video rentals).

I can only speak to my own area, but... it was common as hell. Like I swear every major gas station or small convenience store I visited used to have game and movie rentals. Not exactly a large selection (which was why we still visited actual rental stores) but sometimes these places had games the others did not.

Such a rental was how I first ran into Gargoyle's Quest II on the NES--that was from a store that was literally right across from the school I used to go to (which itself was like five minutes away from my actual house). I remember my mom trying to say we should just rent from here instead of the actual rental place because of the distance, but that argument didn't stick (largely because the "main" rental we used was close to a Wal-Mart, which we had to visit weekly anyway to get groceries and such).

Sigh... this is making me wish I could time travel and revisit these places. One gas station rental I recall had Mega Man V, which that and Mega Man III may have been the first games in that series I played.