Sadbrained Thoughts on Modern Gaming

[skykiii]

Soooo....

I spoke earlier in this topic about how I don't like crafting systems.

But here's another thing a lot of Open World games do that I feel is to their detriment:

Level Scaling

Like, honestly, I don't know how or why level scaling caught on as a game design concept, as its kinda stupid.

Like just for example, imagine if you were playing a game based on Frank Herbert's Dune, and you mosey'd on out into the desert, got into a fight with an Arrakis sandworm at level one, but because the game is designed to make sure no challenge is ever too much for you... you can take it easily.

Or alternatively, some games are designed so that the monsters are always at some level of higher difficulty relative to you, so you'll never be able to take that sandworm even if you grind to godlike proportions.

It also, I think, just ruins the natural wonder that can come with fantasy settings.

Like, to use another literary allusion, imagine getting Excalibur.... but because you somehow got it at a low level, none of its powers or affects are actually all that good, despite its reputation as a legendary blade passed down through ages of mythical heroes. Its only if you get it at a high level (where you basically might not need it) that it measures up to its reputation.

And I find that's just kinda shit.

In general I don't like any aspect of a game world to be decided by an algorithm at all. I would rather a human creator make a determination of what is located where, and when.

 

[ZMOT]

Like, honestly, I don't know how or why level scaling caught on as a game design concept, as its kinda stupid.

simple. players like to see numbers go up and get more abilities. at the same time fighting hordes of trash mobs is boring and tedious. the alternative is having those trash mobs ignore you at some point, which is silly - why should the wolf or zombie suddenly decide not to attack? and even if they ignore you you still have to fight the other trash which just has a higher number, doing again the same fucking shit you have done the rest of the game, taking the same amount of time as before (oh wow, you do 10% more damage against mobs with 10% more hp, but hey bigger numbers...) which means the whole point of levels is pretty much moot.

and of course some games do it better than others. if you have horizontal progression you'll inevitably be able to fuck up that sandworm simply because you got more tools in your arsenal (or some gimmick counterskill/item to gate progression this way). there's are also systems where the scaling is relative and not on a fixed modifier, or the scaling is only based on level, not the better equipment you'll get etc.

In general I don't like any aspect of a game world to be decided by an algorithm at all. I would rather a human creator make a determination of what is located where, and when.

that happens with or without scaling. without it you have some artificial determination of X > Y (nope I can't kill that purple slime because his number is higher, meanwhile the blue slime is too low and no challenge at all), worst case leading to pre-determined "when and where" so you have to grind if you don't exactly follow the curve that human creator wants to you follow.
not to mention basing everyone on numbers easily leads to "meh the rewards are shit aka numbers too low because I didn't do the content in the order I was supposed to" etc.

 

[Spud]

the alternative is having those trash mobs ignore you at some point, which is silly

I disagree, having the trash mobs ignoring you then running away from you when you get close can have more an effect to the player by showing them how strong your character has become compared to when you first had to fight them. Having the world acknowledge your strength through the low level trash actively trying to get away from you rather than just rushing to attack you for the sake of it, like with turned based games and going back to the earlier levels and not being able to auto resolve so you use one of your high level attacks and deal their health squared in damage wasting mp and time.

 

[skykiii]

the alternative is having those trash mobs ignore you at some point, which is silly - why should the wolf or zombie suddenly decide not to attack?

I can't speak for wolves or zombies, but I know if the enemy is a red-bearded pirate and you're playing as a Gaul warrior, that gives them a very good reason to run like hell.

.........

But for me my biggest problem is just it takes the wonder and sense of discovery out of exploration.

It's sort of like flea marketing in real life. Part of the reason pawn shops and flea markets used to be fun is because you had a good chance of finding actual treasures for low prices. But nowadays the fun has gone out of it because the selection has become more limited. Granted, sometimes you still find something worthwhile, but most flea markets I see today have a lot of what I call "old woman stuff" (wooden signs that say 'Home Sweet Home' and that kind of stuff) and its rare to find the kind of stuff I care about.

Level scaling is a lot like that. After awhile dungeon delving is kinda boring because you know the game is gonna arbitrarily prevent you from finding anything good, while at the same time ensuring you'll never have a real challenge unless you personally just really suck.

By contrast I still remember playing the original Wizardry and being genuinely ecstatic when a random drop would give me a really good sword, especially if I was in a level that was way too deep for my current experience points.

...... To be fair though, I did find one game with a form of level scaling that kinda works. That would be the NES version of Might and Magic (the PC version, IIRC, has no equivalent). In that one, you begin as a solo knight, and at first enemies are also always solo. The minute you level up or get a party tho, they start attacking in groups too. But that's as far as it goes--the starting area is always gonna have piss-easy goblins and sprites (save for one area with a predetermined encounter against a specific monster), while any area meant to be mid or late game is always gonna have appropriate encounters. Under no circumstances can a level one solo knight fight a red dragon and think he's gonna live. It's very much possible to wander into areas that you simply have no means of taking on, and getting your ass handed to you.

 

[ZMOT]

I disagree, having the trash mobs ignoring you then running away from you when you get close can have more an effect to the player by showing them how strong your character has become compared to when you first had to fight them. Having the world acknowledge your strength through the low level trash actively trying to get away from you rather than just rushing to attack you for the sake of it, like with turned based games and going back to the earlier levels and not being able to auto resolve so you use one of your high level attacks and deal their health squared in damage wasting mp and time.

again, depends on the game. a zombie won't magically ignore you because he has meta-knowledge of how big your number is.

turn based is it's own thing (posted it in another thread and too lazy too look), combat is already slow so making the amount of necessary combat more tedious doesn't help. that's why the smarter turn-based games either don't respawn encounters or reduce frequency under the hood where it's not 5 trivial fights but 1 challenging etc.

levelscaling is like any other mechanic which can be implemented good or bad.

 

[Xarpho's Return]

Soooo....

I spoke earlier in this topic about how I don't like crafting systems.

But here's another thing a lot of Open World games do that I feel is to their detriment:

Level Scaling

Like, honestly, I don't know how or why level scaling caught on as a game design concept, as its kinda stupid.

Like just for example, imagine if you were playing a game based on Frank Herbert's Dune, and you mosey'd on out into the desert, got into a fight with an Arrakis sandworm at level one, but because the game is designed to make sure no challenge is ever too much for you... you can take it easily.

Or alternatively, some games are designed so that the monsters are always at some level of higher difficulty relative to you, so you'll never be able to take that sandworm even if you grind to godlike proportions.

It also, I think, just ruins the natural wonder that can come with fantasy settings.

Like, to use another literary allusion, imagine getting Excalibur.... but because you somehow got it at a low level, none of its powers or affects are actually all that good, despite its reputation as a legendary blade passed down through ages of mythical heroes. Its only if you get it at a high level (where you basically might not need it) that it measures up to its reputation.

And I find that's just kinda shit.

In general I don't like any aspect of a game world to be decided by an algorithm at all. I would rather a human creator make a determination of what is located where, and when.

A lot of those are stock RPG/fantasy tropes.

There's at least two games I can think of where the sword has to be "charged up" with the power it used to have to be more effective, or you get the "broken sword" fragments that can be reforged to be the best weapon in the world. (I'm currently rewatching Lord of the Rings, that's what happens, basically). However, having a weapon that breaks from overuse is bullshit, though.

As for level scaling, that's kind of what people expect from stories. The first foe you meet is usually a pushover. If Frodo and his friends met an army of Orcs before Bree, if Luffy met Rob Lucci before getting to Loguetown, and so on, that's it: game over.

This also extends to stores, though it's a lot more noticeable: the towns you first go into having worthless trash, and the shop with the best gear is the one right outside the gates of Mordor (or whatever the equivalent is).

 

[skykiii]

As for level scaling, that's kind of what people expect from stories. The first foe you meet is usually a pushover. If Frodo and his friends met an army of Orcs before Bree, if Luffy met Rob Lucci before getting to Loguetown, and so on, that's it: game over.

.... This isn't level scaling, or at least not in the sense I'm talking about (though this would be the first time I've heard it any other way).

You're talking about just the game being designed so it gradually gets harder. I'm talking about games that say "Oh, he somehow made it to Moria but he's a level five hobbit. Better make it so that nothing down here is too difficult and even the one Balrog that's supposed to be here is way nerfed!"

To be fair most games with scaling usually do have one area that's hard no matter what... but that one area tends to be the final endgame area (Hyrule Castle in BOTW for example) which, of course, are also the most satisfying areas to explore because they're actually designed down to the particulars.

 

[Kiwi & Cow]

Too much DEI dogshit being pumped out by out-of-touch turbo cunts who think a "modern audience" will play their games while they benefit from Blackrock's ESG.

Indie games are not what they were back then, too many copies or retakes of other games with barely anyting new to the table. 3D platformers that all feel exactly like Super mario Odyssey, Roguelikes that all play the same way because they copy other popular roguelikes like slay the spire and enter the gungeon or some shit, farming sims (that's all you need to know "farming sims" and also Animal Crossing ripoffs), Soulslike that are literally all the same, bordering on copyright infrigement (only Tunic is any different) and creature collecting games inspired by Pokemon, atleast copy SMT or Digimon you dumb uninspired bastards.

Microtransactions and lootboxes in multiplayer games and even if its "cosmetics-only" you are recommended to buy them to stand out from the crowd. Either everybody should look the same (Like in Lethal Company) or cosmetics should be free, but even that isn't enough for these cunts, I mean just look at Activision or EA.

Not exactly what this thread is about, but still related, youtube recommending me retarded shit from clickbait youtubers like "OMG FIGHTING HEROBRINE IN MINECRAFT (REAL!) (DON'T PLAY AT 3AM!)" or "OMG I FOUND JOHN DOE IN OBBY 4 SUCC ON ROBLOX!" and it happens more and more often even when I click not interested. I still get videos I want to watch, but youtube will occasionally slip in this rubbish.