SBC / Low Power boards general - Raspberry Pi and what not

[tehpope]

ETA Prime overclocks the Pi5 cpu to 3ghz and the gpu to 1ghz .

geekbench - 16% increase st / 6% mt
7z decompression - 19% increase
sysbench 4 threads - 23% increase
speedometer - 14% increase

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

ETA Prime overclocks the Pi5 cpu to 3ghz and the gpu to 1ghz .

geekbench - 16% increase st / 6% mt
7z decompression - 19% increase
sysbench 4 threads - 23% increase
speedometer - 14% increase

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/overclocking-raspberry-pi-5

Tom's got CPU to 3 GHz and GPU to 1.1 GHz.

CPU seems to scale well. Not sure about GPU because they did not test enough. Haven't watched ETA Prime vid yet.

Most people should ignore Raspberry Pi 5 and go for Intel N100 boxes or refurbished mini PCs instead.

 

[Trans Fat 41g]

Most people should ignore Raspberry Pi 5 and go for Intel N100 boxes or refurbished mini PCs instead.

This. Not to mention everyone else in the ARM SBC race is eating the Pi 5's lunch, all except for the Linux (embedded or otherwise) support, which I suspect isn't going to be enough for the Pi Foundation one day. Let's hope a 16GB option releases soon, because competition of similarly sized boards offer far more than this does in terms of RAM configuration and storage options.

The stock I/O is a joke with the Pi 5 tbh.

 

[TheTDman]

Most people should ignore Raspberry Pi 5 and go for Intel N100 boxes or refurbished mini PCs instead.

I did this after not being able to get a Pi4 for MSRP for almost 2 years, plus the companies statement on concentrating more on the commercial customers.

Highly recommend this. You can get mini/Mico systems at reasonable prices (probably before you can get a Pi5)

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

Highly recommend this. You can get mini/Mico systems at reasonable prices (probably before you can get a Pi5)

If you kit out an 8GB Pi5 with a case, fan, power supply, you're already in $100 territory, if not more (got a microHDMI cable and microSD/SSD for storage?).

 

[Pee Cola]

If you kit out an 8GB Pi5 with a case, fan, power supply, you're already in $100 territory, if not more (got a microHDMI cable and microSD/SSD for storage?).

At that price point, an ex-lease i5 Lenovo Tiny or HP EliteDesk makes way more sense than a Pi5.

 

[Cpt. Stud Beefpile]

I did this after not being able to get a Pi4 for MSRP for almost 2 years, plus the companies statement on concentrating more on the commercial customers.

Highly recommend this. You can get mini/Mico systems at reasonable prices (probably before you can get a Pi5)

At that price point, an ex-lease i5 Lenovo Tiny or HP EliteDesk makes way more sense than a Pi5.

Yeah the Pi Foundation is rapidly falling behind in performance and storage options. I impulse-bought a Pi4 with the idea of using it as a tiny Linux box to fuck around with, due to space being at an absolute premium. But if I were wanting to do anything real with a Linux system at this point there's options with way better CPU/GPU output.

 

[DavidS877]

I use the Pis as microservers. I still have Pi 2s running my 3d printers and some Pi 3s doing RTL-SDR for AIS, ADS-B and 433Mhz sensors.

The newer performance and price points are not really useful to me except for a couple things(My stupid Ubiquiti Unifi controller had to get a 2GB Pi 4 for its Java shit.). I do have a Rock 5B to play with... and I'll say this, the support for the Pi and having everything just work is worth it. The Rock is a pain in the ass, still no mainline kernel and 47 different options of stuff to hook together to make it go. But it is fast as hell with a full NVMe drive and a 2.5Gbit port.

 

[AmpleApricots]

I got a Fujitsu Futro S920 for the low price of free. It's a "Thin client" with a AMD GX-415GA. Quad Core. 5x USB 2.0 2x USB 3.0 externally, usual audio connectors, PS/2 mouse and keyboard as dedicated connectors, two old school serial ports . Opening it up it reveals a PCIe x1 slot, two m.2 slots, a TPM header, a third serial port header, and an internal USB header. (two additional USB 2.0 ports) RAM is socketed, two SODIMM sockets in a staggered configuration. Interestingly, this SoC supports ECC RAM. I tried it with 1 GB (all I had lying around as SODIMM and ECC) and although the BIOS doesn't seem to mention it, forcing it on via Linux *seems* to work. (I haven't tested if it truly works, a good way to test it would be overheating the RAM until glitches happen) Pulls about 4.5W in idle and goes up to 9-11W under load. Passively cooled. The mainboard seems to be standard miniITX, and a good chunk of the case is actually empty to be able to house a PCIe card.

I was actually thinking about reselling it but considering that commercial sellers (who give warranty and everything, something I won't do) in my parts sell basically new ones for 30 Eurobucks it's barely worth the hassle of packaging it and dealing with a prospective buyer, if somebody would even buy it. The SoC is kinda crap for AMD64 considerations but will still run circles around many ARMs, with none of the compatibility problems. I've got an A20 Cubietruck I use as server for very old computers and to run the odd service, but that thing gives me the occasional headache, I might replace it with this. I also wanted a wireless access point because reception of my router in one part of my house is kinda crap, something the A20 had no hope of handling, even if it had the proper hardware. This thing should be able to handle it.

EDIT: I couldn't explain why this thing had a "floppy-style" power connector. After looking around a bit more closely, I found a regular SATA connector "hidden" under the CPU heatsink. Neat!

 

[Pee Cola]

The SoC is kinda crap for AMD64 considerations but will still run circles around many ARMs, with none of the compatibility problems.

AMD fanboys conveniently forget that their low-end SoCs are absolute dogshit, and have been for at least 15 years which saddens me as I've been an AMD fanboy since the Am386.

It hasn't stopped me from accumulating a handful of A-series machines over the years; when trashpicking, beggars can't be choosers.

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

AMD fanboys conveniently forget that their low-end SoCs are absolute dogshit, and have been for at least 15 years which saddens me as I've been an AMD fanboy since the Am386.

In theory AMD has much better low-end products in the post-Bulldozer era, but they are overpriced due to capacity constraints. Now Intel is king of the budget market, and AMD has shifted focus to premium products. Although if you spend a bit more you can find some good AMD-based products (usually barebones) around $200-400.

Alder Lake-N (e.g. the N100) seems to get constant attention and product launches. AMD's Mendocino is a very similar low-end chip in terms of performance and features, but with none of the availability.

 

[AmpleApricots]

AMD fanboys conveniently forget that their low-end SoCs are absolute dogshit, and have been for at least 15 years

I used the A4-5000 as honest-to-god desktop system for the longest time (which actually, is basically identical to this GX-415GA - I had no idea until I started googling - if there's any dramatic difference between these I couldn't tell you, doesn't look like it GX supports ECC RAM and has PCIe 3.0) and while it certainly was a low end everything, I loved the challenge. I always figure if it can't run on CPUs like this, it's probably just not well written software. Performance was actually ok (with caveats and for the time) and I remember picking that particular SoC over other offerings of the time because of AES-NI many others in that segment didn't have. Power consumption was always the worst with AMD though, especially in idle. These low measurements were also only possible because the iGPU was off, if that unit really is identical to my old A4-5000 the iGPU is quite power hungry. (and will cause a lot of heat) I'm actually curious to dig that mainboard out and compare it to this one in consumption. My old one had a lot of neat "addons" like additional SATA ports and USB 3.0 ports beyond what the SoC offered, so it probably consumes noticeable more power. (things like this usually are reached by additional ICs that sit on the bus, and that'll cost ya, especially if it can't be disabled properly)

low-end products

My problem with new low-end x86 products is that they're mostly completely overpriced, at least in my corner of the world. The only thing making them attractive is the low power consumption and if I'd have to use it for ten years to make those power savings count vs. a used previous gen model that's a fraction of the price, somewhat more power hungry and only a little bit slower I'm just not gonna buy the new one. It almost doesn't make any sense anymore to buy anything in that segement new at this point. Might as well spend a few hundred bucks more, get the faster one which will use just as little power in idle and will also probably spend more time in that state.

 

[yydszmiteg2]

I got a Fujitsu Futro S920

I recently saw Wolfgang'schannel(Actual YouTube channel name) turn one into a router in case you wanted a project.

 

[AmpleApricots]

curious to dig that mainboard out and compare

Ended up doing this, QC5000-ITX by Asrock. Oh boy, this sent me down a rabbit hole in equipment checking. Long story short: Add 2-3 watts to all numbers I mentioned re: Fujitsu. This one, ~9W idle with GPU off (11W with GPU on) ~15W (w/o GPU) under full load via stress-ng. (the small difference between load and no load is a bit suspicious, I'm not sure it properly enters C6) No other hardware, just an USB stick to boot linux from. Powered by a PicoPSU with Leicke power supply which is about as power efficient as you'd expect. Toggling the SATA chip (for two additonal SATA ports) or USB controller (for additional USB 3.0) on or off doesn't seem to have a big effect on these numbers, so either these go into standby by themselves if not used or never truly do but still don't have much of an impact. This one has double the RAM (and RAM-ICs, also faster) which already might account for most of the difference.

Even if you lived in a country where electricity is hideously expensive (like I do) buying a more modern setup for let's say $150 which draws.. let's say half of this system would still simply not be worth it if you already own this system. If it's enough performance-wise that is. (and if you can still get fitting hardware for reasonable prices for it etc.. things can get uneconomical really quickly here and that's the true silent killer of old systems) When I researched the Fujitsu system a bit I came across so many people on reddit and other places who'd spend ungodly amounts of money on newer hardware just to shave off 2W-5W. People set a watt target and don't factor the cost of the parts. It's retarded.

 

[yydszmiteg2]

Doing a massive homelab refresh/upgrade

Grabbed myself an orange pi 3b from china with a few add-ons recently. Very decent for 70 euros, came with case and 256gb emmc chip. Even managed to run a Minecraft server on there just to load test it, thought it was slow. Currently running openhab and mosquitto message broker on there (Part of a personal project to hack together a DIY smart doorbell with an esp32 and a telegram bot), might slap gitea and syncthing on there once I get a tool to flash the emmc chip it came with. Idles a little higher than the rpi 3b it's replacing but given it's gone from 1.3 to 1.5 I'm not upset.

Also grabbed a lenovo m75q. 3400GE cpu, only 8gb of ram but i'll bump that up later and I already upgraded to a 1tb nvme, all for 190 euros. Currently running proxmox. Idles around 5 watts. Got a gen 2 of this with a 4650GE on the way to replace my big beefy gaming pc (100 watts idle and 250 heavy gaming) as I don't really play heavy games much anymore. also got a nas build upcoming to run my jellyfin+arr suite on.

Anyone else grabbing themselves some early christmas gifts?

 

[Jump]

I use the Pis as microservers. I still have Pi 2s running my 3d printers and some Pi 3s doing RTL-SDR for AIS, ADS-B and 433Mhz sensors.

I still have an old Pi 1b doing random ham radio stuff. Pi Zero's running pi-star. A 2b running old mainframe emulators to dick around with.
When your not trying to drive a GUI the older ones are just as useful as they always where. If your doing a solar project the original Zero can be trimmed down to 0.4Watts. A full linux computer that uses less then 1/2 a watt is still a very useful thing.

And I'll bet a lot of people who have Pi4's just run a 32bit OS anyways because thats what most of the pre-made burn-and-go images are for maximum compatibility.

Pi 5 seems like they are trying to get away from what made them popular to start with. $5 to $45 SBC's that could do little computer things. Now they are trying to be some sort of desktop system thats not going to be cheap and gets its doors blown off by basically any low end x86 based board, plus the hassle of dealing with lack of ARM software compatibility with desktop apps.

What makes the Pi good isn't the specs on the board, its the ecosystem. It's the traditionally stable and long term software support. If they wanted to make Pi users happy they would have spent the resources on getting Pi Zero 2w's and 4's up to the point where anyone who wants one can get as many as they want at the official price. Now their limited manufacturing capacity is going to be shifted to 5's and OG pi users are going to continue to be left hanging. People will continue to migrate to the china pi's or Le Potato's because you can actually get those, which in the long term will take away from the pi ecosystem. The one thing that makes people want to use Pi's in the 1st place.

 

[FruitFighter]

they are trying to be some sort of desktop system thats not going to be cheap and gets its doors blown off by basically any low end x86 based board

The Pi still makes sense if you need a decent quantity of identical boards for a production run of some bespoke IoT gadget, and don't want to support a thousand different models of "bargain" x86 machines pulled out of an e-waste pile, or deal with some obscure chinkware to save a nickel on an end product you're selling for a bazillion dollars anyway.

Unfortunately, the RPi Foundation seems intent on only selling large quantities of Pi's to other business, while the hobbyists get scalped paying for the leftover scraps.

 

[Jump]

The Pi still makes sense if you need a decent quantity of identical boards for a production run of some bespoke IoT gadget, and don't want to support a thousand different models of "bargain" x86 machines pulled out of an e-waste pile, or deal with some obscure chinkware to save a nickel on an end product you're selling for a bazillion dollars anyway.
.

Yes it makes sense but the BeagleBoards make more sense for a commercial use and Ive actually seen them in other products. Its a 10+ year old platform with it's own large ecosystem. BeagleBoard themselves sell an industrial version of the BBB. If I needed 2000 this week I could actually get them from Digikey and Mouser. If I needed a lot more BeagleBoard foundation will point me to the company that makes their branded boards so I can get my own white label BeagleBones made directly for myself, for as long as I wanted. Unlike the Pi, the BBB is all open source.

If I wasn't so heavy invested in the Pi platform already I would have given them a try. I am to lazy to switch now.

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

Pi 5 seems like they are trying to get away from what made them popular to start with. $5 to $45 SBC's that could do little computer things. Now they are trying to be some sort of desktop system thats not going to be cheap and gets its doors blown off by basically any low end x86 based board, plus the hassle of dealing with lack of ARM software compatibility with desktop apps.

What makes the Pi good isn't the specs on the board, its the ecosystem. It's the traditionally stable and long term software support.

If I wasn't so heavy invested in the Pi platform already I would have given them a try. I am to lazy to switch now.

Yeah, they are counting on that.

IMO, they have made a bunch of changes in Pi 5 that will make life better for non-desktop users, like supporting an RTC, and fixing up I/O even if it doesn't directly add the M.2 slot some were looking for, etc. These things will be dropped into robots and servers.

While x86 is clearly superior to an 8 GB model w/ accessories at similar price points, this is not a huge price increase over Pi 4. They won't have any trouble selling it. There will definitely be 1 GB and 2 GB models in the future as indicated directly on the board, which can address cheaper use cases. Although it looks like a shit option for HTPC to me without VP9/AV1. I think they'll try to hit $35 with 1 GB, and $50 with 2 GB.

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

There's some buzz over this cheap Chinese 16-core RISC-V SoC:

https://www.cnx-software.com/2023/10/21/sophgo-sg2380-16-core-sifive-p670-risc-v-processor-20-tops-ai-accelerator/

P670 is said to be comparable to Cortex-A78, and this has 12 of them at 2.5 GHz, 4 at 1.6 GHz.