Shitty Alternate History Thread - If only the Romans had AK-47's they would've survived...

[woowie queen]

I can't figure out why so many AH.com users love trying to make dumb pop culture alternate histories (I say try because a lot never go far, for good reason). You have thousands of topics you can pick from, so why do you devote your time and effort to something like this?

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the only pop culture alt history timeline i kinda recall having a pretty decent following on ah.com and went pretty far was american magic, and that one ended to get rebooted at one point?

 

[DoongDiing4545]

The only alt-pop culture timeline I remember is the one where Chris-chan shot up his school on valentines day and got tons of true-crime groupies to get Sonichu tattoos to show their love for him

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

A lot of people would think it'd change the world a ton and no doubt it would, but a USA just avoiding the Revolution and staying a British dominion I think would end up pretty broad-strokes similar to real life and in turn affect the world the same way Remembering the Thirteen Colonies were always autonomous and fought to stay that way, let's say a miracle happens and the Olive Branch Petition is accepted.

Now compare some broad strokes similarities in real life that happened between the independent USA and still-British Canada: they got constitutional developments (1789 Constitution and 1791's Canada Act), expanded westward from then to about the 1840s territorially, got dragged into the Napoleonic Wars in the 1810s, had governmental crisises in the 1830s (Nullification Act and Canadian Rebellions), adventurism and provincial governmental changes in the late 1840s to early 1850s (Mexican War and Crimean War, Compromise of 1850 and responsible government starting up in the Maritimes), federal supremacy and crushing natives in the 1860s (Union winning in the Civil War and Confederation, Great Sioux War/Indian Wars and Red River Rebellion), first non-North American wars in 1898 (Spanish American War and Boer War), then entering the world wars and settling into world cultural supremacy from the middle 20th century to now.

We can pretty easily extrapolate that and merge these parallels into a full Dominion of (North) America's history - Canada formally included in this Dominion BTW - with dominion status happening in the late 1780s-early 1790s or so, taking over most of North America (Louisiana, Florida, Texas, maybe even pushing west to the Pacific already) in the Napoleonic Wars with a distracted France and Spain, moving west to the Pacific by the 1840s tops and crushing the last powerful native tribes by the 1860s, some local rebellions post-Napoleon if not a huge one/Civil War over slavery and local gentry in the 1830s (combining the Empire's slavery ban in 1833, Canadian Rebellions, the Nullification Act), likely a Balfour/Westminster-style full independence in the 1840s by the time of real-life Canadian self-government and American western organization... but still helping Mother Britain out in both imperial adventures (Boers, eh) and then the world wars till it becomes the big boy amongst Anglos. A republican America already throws its weight around the world, one that still had the British king as head of state or parliamentary government certainly wouldn't be adverse to do so even if it had a 'nice', gradual split up from Britain.

Keep in mind that Canada's political development happened in a world where Britain had to deal with the threat of another American Revolution happening. Without a Revolution the British might be less reasonable in their management of their colonies. The Revolution itself was the result of trying to centralize authority where the colonies had previously been autonomous.

Lack of a Revolution probably also has huge knock-on effects to how Latin American autonomy goes (no American federal republic to draw inspiration from, draw inspiration from somewhere else).

 

[Mayor Cody Travers]

Keep in mind that Canada's political development happened in a world where Britain had to deal with the threat of another American Revolution happening. Without a Revolution the British might be less reasonable in their management of their colonies. The Revolution itself was the result of trying to centralize authority where the colonies had previously been autonomous.

Lack of a Revolution probably also has huge knock-on effects to how Latin American autonomy goes (no American federal republic to draw inspiration from, draw inspiration from somewhere else).

Completely true. I tend to be a bit more conservative on the butterfly effect, and in this case, admitting some optimism. I just remember comparing American and Canadian history and while some strokes are happening no matter what (western expansion, provinces with fairly free and powerful legistatures), the amount of bizarre parallels such as major constitutional developments in the early 1790s, a mid 1830s crisis, or foreign adventurism in the late 1890s just struck out at me.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

Very small alternate history that doesn't matter:
I'm salty that Washington DC is the US capital, because it's a shitty artificial city with no history or culture to it, is not geographically centered, generally stupid place to go.

There are several cities that I think the capital could have been moved to earlier in the country's history (one of them actually seriously suggested in its own day) that would make fine capitals, rich in significance.

Saint Louis is just obvious. It's the Gateway to the West, it's a meeting spot between the West, the Great Lakes culture, and the South, it's located close to both the geographical and population centers of the country, its far inland where you can't just sail up and burn it. What's more, being located pretty much right on Cahokia's ruins, Saint Louis is the fine heir to America's ancient capital that, had the Cahokian civilization survived, would have been like our own little Aztec Empire. Saint Louis had potential, that is, to be like a Mexico City in the American interior. I weep bitter tears every time I see Missouri on a map.

Other than Saint Louis, and this one is admittedly a much harder sell, Cincinnati was at one time one of the largest cities in the country, commanded a similarly important position between North and South along the Ohio River, has a sexy name that is an indirect reference to Washington, and is the home of one of the greatest culinary creations of the American people (skyline). If the US had never expanded beyond the Mississippi (like no Louisiana Purchase), I think it is in about the perfect location to justify it becoming the US capital.

 

[DaBigBopper]

Very small alternate history that doesn't matter:
I'm salty that Washington DC is the US capital, because it's a shitty artificial city with no history or culture to it, is not geographically centered, generally stupid place to go.

There are several cities that I think the capital could have been moved to earlier in the country's history (one of them actually seriously suggested in its own day) that would make fine capitals, rich in significance.

Saint Louis is just obvious. It's the Gateway to the West, it's a meeting spot between the West, the Great Lakes culture, and the South, it's located close to both the geographical and population centers of the country, its far inland where you can't just sail up and burn it. What's more, being located pretty much right on Cahokia's ruins, Saint Louis is the fine heir to America's ancient capital that, had the Cahokian civilization survived, would have been like our own little Aztec Empire. Saint Louis had potential, that is, to be like a Mexico City in the American interior. I weep bitter tears every time I see Missouri on a map.

Other than Saint Louis, and this one is admittedly a much harder sell, Cincinnati was at one time one of the largest cities in the country, commanded a similarly important position between North and South along the Ohio River, has a sexy name that is an indirect reference to Washington, and is the home of one of the greatest culinary creations of the American people (skyline). If the US had never expanded beyond the Mississippi (like no Louisiana Purchase), I think it is in about the perfect location to justify it becoming the US capital.

There's still hope that the US will have a Constantine after the inevitable Civil War that 60% of the world's populations wants to occur. Probably will move the Capital somewhere that's not a corrupt shithole that's overbuilt.

 

[Mayor Cody Travers]

I will oddly defend “Washington” the city that people live in and not “DC” the government that dominates it:

It’s on the second best river for a canal to the west after New York’s Erie Canal. And George W specifically chose it because of that and envisioned it eventually becoming a big normal capital with history and culture and economics, but DC completed its governmental buildings in time for Jefferson’s Democratic-Republicans and obsession with “yeomanry” to force the city to be a campus than an actual settlement.

In spite of that, the district as a legal entity ironically still had quite one of the larger populations and economies for American cities, and of course today it’s a legit big and prosperous city and metro. But that Jeffersonian purview and need for DC to keep control plagued Washington ever since. DC the government strangles Washington the city, and there IS a city and culture there, one I think could become great, but until the government stops controlling it on a local level it won’t ever truly thrive. Imagine if George got his way, the city was allowed to grow naturally, the Chesapeake and Ohio Canal was completed in a reasonable time…we’d think well of Washington and it just happens to house DC. Middle of the eastern seaboard for the easy travel north and south and a C-and-O Canal helping Americans push west.

Incidentally, Cincinnati I fully agree with even if we expanded west to Louisiana. The population fizzles out after Kansas City but Cincy is in the middle of the population east of the Rockies and commands many water and railway points. If the capital moved, it’s my choice.

 

[Zbk3VmLfujjzjxBd43tL]

I can't figure out why so many AH.com users love trying to make dumb pop culture alternate histories (I say try because a lot never go far, for good reason). You have thousands of topics you can pick from, so why do you devote your time and effort to something like this?

View attachment 4286816

There's a huge undercurrent of TV Tropes-level autism on that site.

Very small alternate history that doesn't matter:
I'm salty that Washington DC is the US capital, because it's a shitty artificial city with no history or culture to it, is not geographically centered, generally stupid place to go.

It was very geographically centered by 18th century American standards. And the Potomac River was the gateway to the West, or at least Washington himself thought so.

Saint Louis is just obvious. It's the Gateway to the West, it's a meeting spot between the West, the Great Lakes culture, and the South, it's located close to both the geographical and population centers of the country, its far inland where you can't just sail up and burn it. What's more, being located pretty much right on Cahokia's ruins, Saint Louis is the fine heir to America's ancient capital that, had the Cahokian civilization survived, would have been like our own little Aztec Empire. Saint Louis had potential, that is, to be like a Mexico City in the American interior. I weep bitter tears every time I see Missouri on a map.

Cahokia was more like a very early Neolithic city than anything else, and not even a very stable one since Catalhoyuk lasted centuries longer. There was nothing "imperial" about it. The "Ancient Indian metropolis" claims or claims of it being an empire is pop culture hype of the sort found among History Channel/journalists. Admittedly it's done some good since I imagine I'm not the only person who's visited because of that and it probably helps with funding preservation of the place and many others like it.

 

[DaBigBopper]

Jin-Roh, but it's the Nazis being an occupying force in the UK and America deals with internal strife after Manhattan and DC got nuked is a favorite of mine. A friend and I were spitballing ideas after we got disappointed about Man in the High Castle.

Idea was that Canada and Jamaica have to deal with Anglos who flee their and start causing problems for the US.

 

[Hugbox Kommissar]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_Thirty

Need more Great War-era post-apocalyptic stories.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

I will oddly defend “Washington” the city that people live in and not “DC” the government that dominates it:

It’s on the second best river for a canal to the west after New York’s Erie Canal. And George W specifically chose it because of that and envisioned it eventually becoming a big normal capital with history and culture and economics, but DC completed its governmental buildings in time for Jefferson’s Democratic-Republicans and obsession with “yeomanry” to force the city to be a campus than an actual settlement.

In spite of that, the district as a legal entity ironically still had quite one of the larger populations and economies for American cities, and of course today it’s a legit big and prosperous city and metro. But that Jeffersonian purview and need for DC to keep control plagued Washington ever since. DC the government strangles Washington the city, and there IS a city and culture there, one I think could become great, but until the government stops controlling it on a local level it won’t ever truly thrive. Imagine if George got his way, the city was allowed to grow naturally, the Chesapeake and Ohio Canal was completed in a reasonable time…we’d think well of Washington and it just happens to house DC. Middle of the eastern seaboard for the easy travel north and south and a C-and-O Canal helping Americans push west.

Incidentally, Cincinnati I fully agree with even if we expanded west to Louisiana. The population fizzles out after Kansas City but Cincy is in the middle of the population east of the Rockies and commands many water and railway points. If the capital moved, it’s my choice.

There's a huge undercurrent of TV Tropes-level autism on that site.

It was very geographically centered by 18th century American standards. And the Potomac River was the gateway to the West, or at least Washington himself thought so.

Cahokia was more like a very early Neolithic city than anything else, and not even a very stable one since Catalhoyuk lasted centuries longer. There was nothing "imperial" about it. The "Ancient Indian metropolis" claims or claims of it being an empire is pop culture hype of the sort found among History Channel/journalists. Admittedly it's done some good since I imagine I'm not the only person who's visited because of that and it probably helps with funding preservation of the place and many others like it.

Yeah, I agree with the logic of why choose Washington back when they did, I just think the capital should have moved west. (And I still prefer Philadelphia anyways.)
I know Cahokia isn't anything special by Old World standards, but it's significant as the only major pre-contact city like that in the Continental US. And the Mesoamerican connection extends to cultural links, archeologically it seems they were drawing heavily from Mesoamerica in the same way that ancient Japan did from China. So Cahokia didn't get to last, but I think the cultures of the Mississippi River Valley, if they'd been given enough time, would have evolved into a stable civilization like Mesopotamia did. That's why I view Cahokia as, in some sense, a spiritual capital of Native America, even though it wasn't a long-lasting or especially remarkable polity.

View attachment 4298981

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_Thirty

Need more Great War-era post-apocalyptic stories.

I think there's a HOI4 mod (Red World?) that wanks WW1 revolutionary governments. Spartacists winning is the obvious one, have the French mutinies get out of hand and you've basically gutted the major continental powers.

 

[SunburnNation]

View attachment 4298981

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_Thirty

Need more Great War-era post-apocalyptic stories.

Not quite this, but I think I remember a game from 10 or so years ago being set in a version of the 1950s where WW1 had continued on uninterrupted and had turned most of central Europe into the surface of the moon. Not quite a global apocalypse, but certainly the end of civilization between eastern France and the western Russian Empire.

 

[Zbk3VmLfujjzjxBd43tL]

Yeah, I agree with the logic of why choose Washington back when they did, I just think the capital should have moved west. (And I still prefer Philadelphia anyways.)
I know Cahokia isn't anything special by Old World standards, but it's significant as the only major pre-contact city like that in the Continental US. And the Mesoamerican connection extends to cultural links, archeologically it seems they were drawing heavily from Mesoamerica in the same way that ancient Japan did from China. So Cahokia didn't get to last, but I think the cultures of the Mississippi River Valley, if they'd been given enough time, would have evolved into a stable civilization like Mesopotamia did. That's why I view Cahokia as, in some sense, a spiritual capital of Native America, even though it wasn't a long-lasting or especially remarkable polity.

We don't even know if Cahokia actually was that big (some estimates use the population of the entire local area which actually was like 15-20K but were separate towns with their own central mounds), or if it was the size of any other large Mississippian town (so like 2K max) but had much larger festivals. There were a few cities this large, and several we don't know much about since they're long-buried under modern cities like Memphis or St. Louis or they didn't build as big of mounds for whatever reason like the chiefdoms De Soto visited.

 

[Ishtar]

View attachment 4298981

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_Thirty

Need more Great War-era post-apocalyptic stories.

I've always wanted something like this-either in a post WW1 setting or sometime after 1500-say in the 18th century. Civilization/the international order collapses into warlordism and anarchy. You can do a lot with this as a concept because its not the "modern" world with modern tech, or say oil wells being exhausted(an issue a post apocalypse setting), but more a sort of breakdown back to the bare renaissance/late medieval, with muskets, clocks and plenty of educated people remembering other continents exist.

A worse Spanish flu combined with the Russian revolution spreading bolshevism-leading to counter revolution, etc... leading to a general anarchic breakdown could create a very fun setting-warlords that horde poison gas, tanks being scrapped for parts, the occasional biplane-mixed groups of soldiers pillaging the country side.

Bros, what if the Zanj Rebellion had won?
The Zanj Rebellion was history's largest slave revolt, which you never hear about because it involved Muslims and Africans. Abbasid Iraq was big in the buck-breaking business running sugar plantations, huge Black population, but their slaves from the Zanzibar Coast were all gelded, which is why it didn't leave an impact on their demographics today. Eventually the Zanj (Blacks) rose in a massive revolt that threw the Abbasids out for over a decade and even managed to establish a navy.

One of the novelties of this scenario is that the Zanj would have been an ethnic group with no long-term ability to replace themselves. What do they do? Voluntarily repatriate? Find ways to import countrymen (voluntarily or involuntarily) to succeed them? Establish a dynasty that replaces itself with local Iraqis as they die of old age?

I imagine the fact they were all gelded would ensure such a dynasty/slave state would be short lived. I imagine there'd be retaliation against the Arab ruling classes, and maybe some attempts to expand either into Persia or Syria(likely unsuccessfully)-the dynasty is either toppled by Abbasid relief forces(forgive me if I'm wrong but weren't the Abbasids decentralized) or burns itself out due to fighting Arabs, and probable infighting as well.

I don't see it lasting in the long run-a state run entirely of eunuchs is going to fade away.

 

[Saturnalia-1918]

An alternate history I would be interested is what if Edward Oxford successfully assassinated Queen Victoria in 1840?

Besides the obvious backlash from some loon killing the Queen, another change to the general history of Europe would be wiping out the Victorian lineage, as Victoria was pregnant with her first child at the time of the assassination.

This would directly effect the inheritance of Great Britain and Germany. As Edward VII and the entire lineage down to Elizabeth II would be gone. This, I imagine, would have little affect as I believe at this point the British monarchy had been defanged of any true political power.

But the greatest change would be the loss of Queen Victoria's daughter, of the same name, who would marry the future German Emperor Frederick III and mother the infamous Kaiser Wilhelm II.

With no Victoria the younger, Frederick III will look to another woman to marry and father an heir, resulting in a completely different person to inherit the throne of Germany. And unlike the British, the German Imperial Family held immense government power if the monarch truly wished to involve themselves in politics.

 

[Mayor Cody Travers]

You can do a lot with this as a concept because its not the "modern" world with modern tech, or say oil wells being exhausted(an issue a post apocalypse setting), but more a sort of breakdown back to the bare renaissance/late medieval, with muskets, clocks and plenty of educated people remembering other continents exist.

This is actually my favorite post-apocalypse, and "post"-post-apocalypse setting... when the Apocalypse itself is history and civilization's rebuilt into a new normal, but the lack of fossil fuels and post-industrial tech/manufacturing leads to a pre-industrial tech height (which I figure is around the American to French Revolutionary era) combined with all knowledge or engineering able to be retro-engineered from the current height of technology (crop rotations, sterlizing medical tools, stuff etc. for simple but effective examples). It lets you literally play with guns and cannon warships in the setting, but things have localized and regionalized so much due to lack of rails or large-scale gunpowder armies or ironclad warships, you can have both great empires and thalassocracies crisscrossing the globe or localized warring regional nations and plucky independent ethnic groups alike.

It's this very setting where I've fielded-tested the "America as an eternal China/Iran-style nation" situation above. Such a state based in North America can get to the Great Plains or even to the Rockies as a default without musketry... but absolutely could extend to those mountains and perhaps the Oregon Territory (the 1853 version which is basically Oregon+southern Idaho and the path of the Oregon Trail) with them. China could easily hold all traditional China Proper sans gunpowder but with it can hold onto now-Han supermajority Manchuria, Ordos Loop, and Dzungaria while still able to become overextended and let Tibet and the Uighyr and Mongol lands become independent, and so forth.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

Calling back to the Canadian discussion, in real life there was a group, I think called Watauga Association, that were proto-Tennessee and ran a de facto autonomous statelet in East Tennessee, though not autonomous by intention but just because they were squatting in Indian Country the British Crown didn't care about to administer.

Later on, there was a rebellion, the War of the Regulation, in backcountry North Carolina that some people like to style as the "real" first American Revolution, though it wasn't actually an independence war, because it did bleed into the Revolution and had started off before the rumblings in New England.

I think it's fairly plausible that in a scenario where the Revolution fails or never gets off the ground, Highlanders and settlers of the Kentucky-Tennessee area are still going to be an ulcer for the British and Indians and could wind up being a Boer analogue in the American interior (though with a harder time going for them, so less viable, as they'd have way more migration pressure on them, even more landlocked, and no cultural distinctiveness from the British to want to fight to preserve). I just don't see the Revolution ending because the Continental Army doesn't exist or gets stopped, I see the Revolution morphing into backcountry war until the frontiersmen are conquered like Indians.

 

[Ishtar]

This is actually my favorite post-apocalypse, and "post"-post-apocalypse setting... when the Apocalypse itself is history and civilization's rebuilt into a new normal, but the lack of fossil fuels and post-industrial tech/manufacturing leads to a pre-industrial tech height (which I figure is around the American to French Revolutionary era) combined with all knowledge or engineering able to be retro-engineered from the current height of technology (crop rotations, sterlizing medical tools, stuff etc. for simple but effective examples). It lets you literally play with guns and cannon warships in the setting, but things have localized and regionalized so much due to lack of rails or large-scale gunpowder armies or ironclad warships, you can have both great empires and thalassocracies crisscrossing the globe or localized warring regional nations and plucky independent ethnic groups alike.

It's this very setting where I've fielded-tested the "America as an eternal China/Iran-style nation" situation above. Such a state based in North America can get to the Great Plains or even to the Rockies as a default without musketry... but absolutely could extend to those mountains and perhaps the Oregon Territory (the 1853 version which is basically Oregon+southern Idaho and the path of the Oregon Trail) with them. China could easily hold all traditional China Proper sans gunpowder but with it can hold onto now-Han supermajority Manchuria, Ordos Loop, and Dzungaria while still able to become overextended and let Tibet and the Uighyr and Mongol lands become independent, and so forth.

I had a reincarnation idea where someone reincarnates in every post post apocalypse situation. Each time civilization devolves, for example the first post apocalypse civilization is based on solar and limited use of remaining machinery, the second post post apocalypse civilization is about renaissance level, eventually till you get to a stone age level of savagery and ignorance-ending with everyone butchering each other in an orgy of nihilistic violence.

What I meant with the post you responded too is a global cataclysm that occurs in historical times-for example a superplague in the 18th century, something that would shatter the international and domestic order of the world, you go from muskets and the dawn of the enlightenment back to swords, and castles (you'd get a lot of interesting schizo tech sort of stuff). Basically, any sort of global collapse or apocalyptic crisis after say 1550 and before 1900. Its before oil and electronics, and even coal(as I imagine it) so its not a matter of those resources being expended forever more, just the survivors trying to basically "reboot" civilization from a pseudo medieval/renaissance level with some of the tech of the 18th century, or 19th century still around. British aristocrats forced to take on feudal roles again, France shattered back into its old constituent parts, one more nomadic invasion of a depopulated China, and European colonies mostly destroyed, or absorbed. Maybe with civilization clawing its way back to an equivalent 18th/19th century level by the mid third millennium.

 

[Sayer of the N-Word]

This is actually my favorite post-apocalypse, and "post"-post-apocalypse setting... when the Apocalypse itself is history and civilization's rebuilt into a new normal, but the lack of fossil fuels and post-industrial tech/manufacturing leads to a pre-industrial tech height (which I figure is around the American to French Revolutionary era) combined with all knowledge or engineering able to be retro-engineered from the current height of technology (crop rotations, sterlizing medical tools, stuff etc. for simple but effective examples). It lets you literally play with guns and cannon warships in the setting, but things have localized and regionalized so much due to lack of rails or large-scale gunpowder armies or ironclad warships, you can have both great empires and thalassocracies crisscrossing the globe or localized warring regional nations and plucky independent ethnic groups alike.

It's this very setting where I've fielded-tested the "America as an eternal China/Iran-style nation" situation above. Such a state based in North America can get to the Great Plains or even to the Rockies as a default without musketry... but absolutely could extend to those mountains and perhaps the Oregon Territory (the 1853 version which is basically Oregon+southern Idaho and the path of the Oregon Trail) with them. China could easily hold all traditional China Proper sans gunpowder but with it can hold onto now-Han supermajority Manchuria, Ordos Loop, and Dzungaria while still able to become overextended and let Tibet and the Uighyr and Mongol lands become independent, and so forth.

You are assuming that the collapse will happen before technology adapted for a post-hydrocarbon world could be matured and spread throughout the world. Plants could be genetically engineered to produce easily harvested bioplastics, various medicines, or be optimized for the production of biodiesel. Electricity from water and wind will still be available. Wireless communication, electric lighting, photography, and audio recording are all well-understood.

Instead of men swinging swords, you could have star forts guarding fields of precious plasticorn or gasbulbs, all connected to each other and brightly-lit Fort Bragg by handmade wireless telegraphs. They would easily hold at bay the Mexican barbarians armed with nothing but crude hook guns and thrown incendiaries which emit hallucinogenic gas, and in winter the soldiers would gather in the heated "electric room" to hear a specially-delivered phonographic record of 20 year old President George Obiden XXII reading the annual Christmas Address to the Troops from his Winter Palace in coastal Augusta.

 

[Ishtar]

Carrying on the reincarnation concept-the idea would be to examine human degeneration as a concept, and a meditation on the impermanency and fundamental weakness of human life. Its stupidity, selfishness, and cruelty. In an ever escalade of damnation through devolution.

With every reincarnation and post post apocalypse civilization collapsing (into a post post post post apocalypse and so on)-resources get scarcer, technology devolves, and man becomes more like an ape, a beast clinging to the drop of water in his hands and the morsel of food in his mouth.

The story would end with humanity having been reduced to a near paleolithic existence (perhaps with some neolithic settlements) slaughtering each other to the last, and the protagonist would gaze into an indifferent wind, and close his eyes and die, never to be reincarnated again.

I would call it, "We all fall down".