Shitty Alternate History Thread - If only the Romans had AK-47's they would've survived...

[Dagobert]

I read it.

Spoiler: AH sperging

Maybe it's the pro-Palestine side of me talking but I just feel that it was a massive Israel and more generally speaking, Judaism wank.
Mussolini being more pro-Semitic then he was in OTL? Fine, the Fascist Party didn't really give a shit about God's Chosen™ until Kristallnacht, so I could see that happening.

Mussolini buying Jews who were likely to go along with fascism off Hitler and using them to settle Libya? Also fine, the Nazis would have been very happy to get Jews out the country and I'd assume they'd see it as Mussolini just causing himself problems.

Mussolini allowing Libya to have a Jewish population that came close to the Italian population? Yeah, there's no way an authoritarian nationalist regime that was, in theory, Catholic is going to allow an Italian colony to have a large population of people who weren't Italian or Christian.

Mussolini allowing 800,000 Hungarian Jews into Italy who then proceed to defend Slovenia using their special Jewish magic powers? Also no. Not to mention that the Ustaše, who were on the Axis side and would have cared about what was going on in Slovenia, were very anti-Semitic and I doubt that Pavelic and the NDH would have been fine with 800,000 Jews fighting on their border when they were literally gassing Jews at Jasenovac.

(as an aside, the Ustaše were also not so stupid that they would risk WW3 just so that they could kill Serbs. Yes, they were incredibly vicious bastards to any Serbs that found themselves in ”Greater Croatia”, no, this doesn't mean that they would have invaded Serbia for shits and giggles. They literally had a plan for Serbs that involved converting a third to Catholicism, killing a third and deporting the other third to a Serbian rump state. You can't do that if Serbia doesn't exist.)

Britain establishing a Jewish Army and then Israel when the majority of Zionist organisations were supported by Fascist Italy? No. There is no way Britain would let a Zionist government take power in Mandatory Palestine or hand Palestine over to said Zionists when they've made it very clear that they like Italy, a country most Brits then viewed with distaste.

Israel then being supported by Fascist Italy? Fine - as we've seen, in this timeline Mussolini's happy to support the Jews and the Jews are happy to be protected by somebody for a change. There's absolutely no way this wouldn't lead to a fascist government being created in Israel, because Mussolini is not going to let a liberal democracy be established in an Italian client state when he's spent the last twenty years railing against liberal democracy.

Israel then getting all of both Mandatory Palestine and Transjordan? That definitely seems like a stretch given there were about 1000 Jews in Transjordan in 1948, and Britain had always said that there was no way Transjordan would be included in any future Jewish state. Still, given Israel has a great power on its side and absolutely nobody cares about the Palestinians or Jordanians, I'll excuse it.

Michel Aflaq then taking over in Syria? This actually makes sense because Ba'athism is very much anti-imperialist and given that the Arab world (French Algeria, Italian Libya, Palestine and Transjordan) is being colonised on a greater scale than OTL, I can see Ba'athism being incredibly popular.

Aflaq then making Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi and Julius Streicher look like people who put those ”coexist” bumper stickers on their cars? No, no, and no. The Ba'ath party was secular and would not have screwed over the Maronites in the way it did (Aflaq was literally a Christian) nor would it have carried out pogroms across the UAR.

Aflaq then forgetting nuclear weapons exist and then deciding to attack a state protected by nukes without having any nukes? No. Ba'athism may well be an Arab knockoff of fascism, but that doesn't make Ba'athists stupid. Likewise, Aflaq wouldn't have bombed random Jewish settlements instead of targeting the IDF with the few chemical weapons he had.

In short, Israel manages to get support from everyone it meets and somehow manages to be a thriving liberal democracy and a fascist client state at the same time, while any Arabs who come into contact with Israel are made mentally retarded and incapable of putting together any form of military strategy by the simple fact that Israel is a Jewish state.

Spoiler: Reply sperging

I definitely agree that there is plenty of moments that break, especially some with the 2nd Arab War. Perhaps it's because I'm both more pro-Israel and sick of the ah.com trope that a Jewish state is established outside of OTL Israel and suddenly everything is peaceful and better in the Middle East that makes me be more accepting. IMO, the 2nd Arab War should have been provoked by Israel (the Lehi doing some shit in Transjordan for example) and outside intervention only comes with Israel being on the ropes. And the Croats got the really bad straw for representation, Serbia should never have fallen to communism either.

I do think there are a couple of points that are more likely in story context than given, E.G. the Jews were moved to Libya to build up colonial infrastructure with the plan of booting them out later makes the settlement with Italian settlers make somewhat more sense and the Ba'ath Party carrying out pogroms was more or less OTL thing from Iraq. Also, IIRC, the original Italian plan in Croatia was to put the liberal democratic nationalists from the Banovate in charge so liberal democratic Israel isn't as much a stretch. Mussolini thought that fascism should take its own tone in other states too, so if he viewed Jews as an equal people and not those to be puppeted (like Serbs, Croats or Greeks for example) he might not have been as willing to interfere in Israel's internal affairs either.

Anywho, what'd you think of the story outside of Israel. I know it's a main focus, but I thought the parts with racial equality in the USA (if you're Finnish I suppose you wouldn't give a shit there), colonialism not really ending, communism's ignoble death or fascism not being portrayed as the evilest shit imaginable but as a real ideology was interesting and genuinely surprising coming from ah.com.

 

[Marshal Mannerheim]

Spoiler: Reply sperging, part 2

IMO, the 2nd Arab War should have been provoked by Israel (the Lehi doing some shit in Transjordan for example)

Transjordan was part of Israel in TTL. Jewish alien space bats or whatever intervened and granted the whole of the British mandate, including OTL Palestine and Jordan, to Israel.

A far more believable way for the 2nd War to happen would be
• Mussolini backs a fascist party in Israel (something like the Lehi) and Jews with pro-Italian views vote for it.
• Said fascist party decides to tear down the Dome of the Rock and start shit in Lebanon and Iraq with a view to getting a Jewish state from the brook of Egypt to the Euphrates.
• The Ba'athists understandably flip their shit due to Israel trying to take over more Arab land, and the Saudis do the same due to the fourth holiest site in Islam being destroyed.
• As in Croatia, Italy hangs the Lehi out to dry and essentially says ”if you want to provoke wars for no good reason, fight them yourself”.

the Croats got the really bad straw for representation

Yeah. The Ustaše were absolutely nuts, but that doesn't mean they would have started a war with Serbia so long as Serbia stayed on its own side of the Drina.

Wouldn't it make more sense for Bulgaria to annex the Serbian rump state? I can see Serbs seeing Orthodox Bulgaria as preferable to Ustaše Croatia, and I'm sure that region was seen as part of Greater Bulgaria.

the parts with racial equality in the USA

The ”seperate but actually equal” seemed to me like a necessary evil in that context, but I doubt blacks in the south, let alone the Black Fascists, would have been as accepting of it as they were.

 

[Cap. Willard Marlow]

Hello, I'm new here. I did the steps to register, read the cybersecurity text, all the shit. Just one thing left: those screenshots of posts, how you take them?

I have lolworthy material from a few places. Some is from AH.Com, which is why I've started in this thread.

 

[Null]

Hello, I'm new here. I did the steps to register, read the cybersecurity text, all the shit. Just one thing left: those screenshots of posts, how you take them?

https://kiwifarms.st/threads/archival-tools.6561/

And wtf is with the posts above this. If your post is so off-topic and shit just don't post it. Using spoilers to say "sorry my post is garbage teehee" is dumb.

 

[Cap. Willard Marlow]

So, I'm probably high on my own autistic fumes, but I've actually bought and set up a forum to try my hand in the creation of a splitter forum for alternate history. Figure it's useless to just bitch about Ian being shit and the alternatives being shit if I don't try something myself. There's literally nobody there at the moment though, but if anybody here wants to join, I'll DM you a link if you want.

Great. I want to join too. I've been growing more and more tired of AH.Com each day. But I'm not an ah writer, at most one of those users that give quirky ideas from time to time. Not sure if that's what you want.

https://kiwifarms.st/threads/archival-tools.6561/

And wtf is with the posts above this. If your post is so off-topic and shit just don't post it. Using spoilers to say "sorry my post is garbage teehee" is dumb.

Thanks. I'm getting down to work on the tools now.

Meanwhile, I leave this here. I wasn't sure what was the best place for it. Here seemed the most adequate.

 

[DJ Grelle]

Great. I want to join too. I've been growing more and more tired of AH.Com each day. But I'm not an ah writer, at most one of those users that give quirky ideas from time to time. Not sure if that's what you want.


Thanks. I'm getting down to work on the tools now.

Meanwhile, I leave this here. I wasn't sure what was the best place for it. Here seemed the most adequate.

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Calbear is such an autist, I'm sure he took "retarded" personally.
TBH anyone who posts in A-H's non-Alt his boards is kinda retarded. No reason to do so.

Edit: and AH has some of the most autistic shit imaginable: DBWI (double-blind what ifs), Alt his threads on just a single sport with like two or three posters going on for ages etc etc. Oh and the insane amount of ASOIAF Self-insert fanfics in the fandom board. And they're almost all the same, whig inspired "I must create a modern nationstate and introduce SCIENCE". Well you got to be autistic to actually be still engaged with this stuff at this point.

 

[Cap. Willard Marlow]

Calbear is such an autist, I'm sure he took "retarded" personally.

There's something about him that it's so obnoxious. Ian the Admin mostly does lectures on why this and that is bad or good. Calbear's stick, as you can see, is self righteous oh so smart snarking with a tough guy flavour.

TBH anyone who posts in A-H's non-Alt his boards is kinda retarded. No reason to do so.

Edit: and AH has some of the most autistic shit imaginable: DBWI (double-blind what ifs), Alt his threads on just a single sport with like two or three posters going on for ages etc etc. Oh and the insane amount of ASOIAF Self-insert fanfics in the fandom board. And they're almost all the same, whig inspired "I must create a modern nationstate and introduce SCIENCE". Well you got to be autistic to actually be still engaged with this stuff at this point.

Gotta admit, I only browse through 5 or 4 threads and actually read one timeline. Most of the time I stay away from the wider page unless I need it for some info or I feel like "gonna see what's there". But even so, a fair chunk of the stuff there is cringe wokeness and lefties and what you said.

Sufficient Velocity, though, is no man's land. The least you touch it the better. The stuff people say there is surrealistic. So much that it looks like a right wing satire. They sound like they lost contact with reality.

 

[Meiwaku]

Alternate site history horror edition: Null is a troon

 

[heraclius33]

Honestly my main issue with alternate history is that it involves the same few topics, eras or premises over and over again. If its not for some esoteric HOI4 mod or a bad fanfiction that contains gross fetishes and time travel, than at best its just a 15-30 minute video that focuses solely on the big picture with very few details about individual people, battles, locations or events past the point of divergence. There is a decent podcast called "The History of Rome" by Mike Duncan that I think would be a very decent format to replicate but for an alternate timeline of history with the same basic structure. (If you are into history, the History of Rome is worth listening too if you haven't already.)

 

[Fortunato Brown]

Feels like it's been a long time since a really good timeline was made on the forums. People just don't finish timelines anymore.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

I've got an interest in trying to write an alternate history story, and I was wondering about what you all think about timelines.

So, there's lots of different approaches in Butterfly Effects, but there's especially two trends, one where the author has basically nothing change in the world outside of the specific society they're focusing on, the other being where the author uses it as an opportunity to wank the losing sides of every conflict and jerk off whatever interests they have, like cramming a CSA victory into any scenario that involves a divergence before 1861, or the Germans tending to do well, and so on.

With my story, I was wanting to do a Confederate victory where instead of the CSA abolishing slavery in ten years and then becoming USA 2, or the CSA becoming Anglo-Nazis who conquer the world, they degenerate into a banana republic and by the 1960s (as a South Africa-style pariah state) have descended into full-on race war. I imagine it probably being like a Heart of Darkness from the Holston River (up deep in Appalachian Tennessee) down the Tennessee and into the Mississippi, emptying out in New Orleans, with an emphasis on the complete disintegration of civil society and ramping up of atrocities with a surreal feeling from the blending of Antebellum, 1960s-1970s, and modern race issues with the nihilistic violence. And having it proceed along the river provides a survey of change along Southern society (which would be different than the 1850s world, but in this setting seeing how it changes in response to industrialization and mass media would also be interesting). I don't really have the writing experience to try tackling that, but it's the topic that would take the least intense research, I think, to begin writing.

The question is, for a story like that - which isn't really about the journey of "how we got here" but instead about "how it is now," what kind of take do you have on world history? I feel like it's immersion-breaking to just phone it in and have everything turn out real similarly in the rest of the world, or parallel it, but having it all turn out too alien I think would make it feel confusing and distract from the feeling I'd be aiming for.

Honestly my main issue with alternate history is that it involves the same few topics, eras or premises over and over again. If its not for some esoteric HOI4 mod or a bad fanfiction that contains gross fetishes and time travel, than at best its just a 15-30 minute video that focuses solely on the big picture with very few details about individual people, battles, locations or events past the point of divergence. There is a decent podcast called "The History of Rome" by Mike Duncan that I think would be a very decent format to replicate but for an alternate timeline of history with the same basic structure. (If you are into history, the History of Rome is worth listening too if you haven't already.)

Alternate History Forums really illustrates that, where every other thread is Civil War or WW2.
And 99% of topics are "the loser of this historical war wins" or "how can I wank this civ to win history," usually the two combined.

 

[SheerHeartAttack]

With my story, I was wanting to do a Confederate victory where instead of the CSA abolishing slavery in ten years and then becoming USA 2, or the CSA becoming Anglo-Nazis who conquer the world, they degenerate into a banana republic and by the 1960s (as a South Africa-style pariah state) have descended into full-on race war.

Funnily enough, I noticed a trend in recent Confederate Alternate History (mostly the lore on maps, I don't have the time to read giant forum novels) where the Confederacy slowly degenerates into a Banana Republic that's either left in a rump state by the US, or reabsorbed into the US in a later war. Though the concept of destroying itself in a Race War like Rhodesia or Yugoslavia is somewhat new to me. The closest I can think of is Henry Turtledove's own Confederate timeline where they basically become the Nazi archetype you describe except they lose the war and get reannexed into an expansionist US.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

Funnily enough, I noticed a trend in recent Confederate Alternate History (mostly the lore on maps, I don't have the time to read giant forum novels) where the Confederacy slowly degenerates into a Banana Republic that's either left in a rump state by the US, or reabsorbed into the US in a later war. Though the concept of destroying itself in a Race War like Rhodesia or Yugoslavia is somewhat new to me. The closest I can think of is Henry Turtledove's own Confederate timeline where they basically become the Nazi archetype you describe except they lose the war and get reannexed into an expansionist US.

It's probably become trendier since you're not allowed to like the Confederacy anymore. I think the reabsorption is retarded, if the Rebels won they'd be as legitimate as the US seceding from the UK, nobody will give a shit in a decade or two.

My thinking, and this is based on some impressions I've made of the Southern ruling class, is that they were perfectly willing to throw out the Constitution when it came to suppressing abolitionism. The South might become a multi-party federal democracy, but it's going to be one that is completely, utterly intolerant on the slavery question. The Constitution banned them from interfering with it, anyways. The extreme decentralization is honestly something I like - it's the whole reason I used to be a Neo-Confederate fag - but for story purposes, and based on some real world examples of weak central authorities completely failing (Holy Roman Empire), I figure that the South is going to end up with internal state conflicts so bad that places like Texas will just be a law unto themselves, almost more of a separate nation in all but name.

Historically, slave value was actually increasing during slave days and they were also experimenting with proto-industrialization that was very effective. When Boll Weevil hits, and subject to a suite of Great Powers that are extremely hostile - the British fucking hated slavery, and only backed the Rebels, against the middle classes' desires, for realpolitik - Dixie becomes more cut off and industrialized, they basically attempt an autarkic economy where they use the coal from Appalachia (don't know as the South had any iron, though) and later gas from Texas to transition from the paternal plantation to full-on corporate industrial slavery, something they did in real-life on a small scale with Jim Crow convicts.

Appalachia was Unionist and is really pissy about being kept against their will, and Deep South yeomen don't have an external regional enemy, so populism becomes an extremely turbulent force in the Confederacy. It manifests in a lot of different forms, from movements to redistribute the slaves (every man a master)/fund a welfare state off of slavery, to traditional Communists, to radical Christian militants, particularly Pentecostals (who historically appealed to a mixed White/Black crowd).

Eventually, the situation might become so unstable that Southern democracy actually falls apart into juntaism. At some point outside actors and the internal pressures lead to a general slave rising mixed with localized White insurgencies that begins the Southern Civil War.

 

[JJLiautaud]

Dixie becomes more cut off and industrialized, they basically attempt an autarkic economy where they use the coal from Appalachia (don't know as the South had any iron, though)

The South has some iron, the area in and around Montgomery, Alabama, produced something like 376 million long tons of ore from the 1880s to 1975, nothing on the lake superior deposits but not bad, and there are other deposits scattered throughout the South.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

The South has some iron the area in and around Montgomery, Alabama produced something like 376 million long tons of ore from the 1880s to 1975, nothing on the lake superior deposits but not bad, and there are other deposits scattered throughout the South.

You're right, I completely forgot the Alabama steel industry.

 

[Techpriest]

It's probably become trendier since you're not allowed to like the Confederacy anymore. I think the reabsorption is retarded, if the Rebels won they'd be as legitimate as the US seceding from the UK, nobody will give a shit in a decade or two.

My thinking, and this is based on some impressions I've made of the Southern ruling class, is that they were perfectly willing to throw out the Constitution when it came to suppressing abolitionism. The South might become a multi-party federal democracy, but it's going to be one that is completely, utterly intolerant on the slavery question. The Constitution banned them from interfering with it, anyways. The extreme decentralization is honestly something I like - it's the whole reason I used to be a Neo-Confederate fag - but for story purposes, and based on some real world examples of weak central authorities completely failing (Holy Roman Empire), I figure that the South is going to end up with internal state conflicts so bad that places like Texas will just be a law unto themselves, almost more of a separate nation in all but name.

Historically, slave value was actually increasing during slave days and they were also experimenting with proto-industrialization that was very effective. When Boll Weevil hits, and subject to a suite of Great Powers that are extremely hostile - the British fucking hated slavery, and only backed the Rebels, against the middle classes' desires, for realpolitik - Dixie becomes more cut off and industrialized, they basically attempt an autarkic economy where they use the coal from Appalachia (don't know as the South had any iron, though) and later gas from Texas to transition from the paternal plantation to full-on corporate industrial slavery, something they did in real-life on a small scale with Jim Crow convicts.

Appalachia was Unionist and is really pissy about being kept against their will, and Deep South yeomen don't have an external regional enemy, so populism becomes an extremely turbulent force in the Confederacy. It manifests in a lot of different forms, from movements to redistribute the slaves (every man a master)/fund a welfare state off of slavery, to traditional Communists, to radical Christian militants, particularly Pentecostals (who historically appealed to a mixed White/Black crowd).

Eventually, the situation might become so unstable that Southern democracy actually falls apart into juntaism. At some point outside actors and the internal pressures lead to a general slave rising mixed with localized White insurgencies that begins the Southern Civil War.

If anything you'd see the South falling to a communist revolution of some sort. Marxist ideas would spread like wildfire among poorer whites in a society that still has slaves devaluing their labor, and slaves would probably support it too. Especially if you start seeing corporate, industrial slavery happening. I'd be extremely interested in where this could go. There's no doubt that this would have effects in the US as well, possibly an attempt to invade and retake the south again.

 

[Zaryiu2]

Here's an alt history i bet they would fuck up: Woodrow Wilson doesn't become president

 

[Maurice Caine]

Sufficient Velocity, though, is no man's land. The least you touch it the better. The stuff people say there is surrealistic. So much that it looks like a right wing satire. They sound like they lost contact with reality.

Forget alternate history, have you seen their Madoka fanfiction? The stuff of nightmares.

 

[Cap. Willard Marlow]

Forget alternate history, have you seen their Madoka fanfiction? The stuff of nightmares.

As I say, the least you touch it the better, so I don't go there unless I stumble on it looking for another thing. What's so cringy about that fanfic?

 

[Maurice Caine]

As I say, the least you touch it the better, so I don't go there unless I stumble on it looking for another thing. What's so cringy about that fanfic?

I mean, if you know Madoka you'd know it's not about two lesbians fighting against imaginary space fascism with horrible illustrations. Shinbo would kill himself over this.